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In Defense of Final Fantasy XII

This game kicked ass. I got it as an instinct buy when I think I was 11 or something and I just couldn't wrap my finger around the battle system and quit while after Raithwall in the magisters airship. Came back a year later after finding it stashed away, started it over and really learned how effective gambits were and binged through the game like a season of House Cards.

Story was excellent. I can see peoples frustration with Penello, she was just non existant but Vaan I actually ended up liking. But when I played, I switched my main character to Balthier (Who is also Deucalion in Teen Wolf) and basically let my imagination take over. Larsa was also one of my favorite characters in the game, wish he was a playable character.

An HD Zodiac version would be nice and of course a vita version too although I don't know if they would be willing to put the work in to get a decent framerate on there considering how big the game is.
 

On Demand

Banned
I put 120 hours into FF12. It doesn't need any defence. 2nd best FF i've played behind 7.

Got the steel book on launch day.


4qft.jpg


jawd.jpg
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
In defense of the best FF? No need. :)

Seriously though, it's my favorite of the series.

I was wishing beyond all hope that 13 would have been an improved take on the systems and setup of 12.

Square had a winning formula brewing.. and then did everything they could to go a complete opposite direction with 13.
 
I don't enjoy Final Fantasy as much as most other RPG fans, but 12 is my favorite as well. I liked the MMO combat, I loved the way the story was told, but I agree that characters in general was so-so.
 
I played through it once. I thought it was convoluted and lacked clear direction. The story was very forgettable, the characters bland, and the combat was the worst of all the FFs I've played(6,7,8,9,10). The music was not up to the standards of previous titles.

While it wasn't the worst game I've played, it was the worst FF I've played. I wish Square-Enix would start releasing new FF titles based on the old way of FF. Pre-rendered backgrounds, no voice acting, more emphasis on the score, etc.

This is the one point which I will argue against until I'm blue in the face. Did you just not pay attention to the score? The score to FFXII is one of the most musically complex ones in the series, and its orchestration is absolutely fantastic. It easily has one of the best scores in the series. People that hate it seem to think that it not having Uematsu makes it bad, even though the worst song on the soundtrack was the one and only one composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

Boss Battle
Fight to the Death
Esper Battle
Theme of the Empire
The Cerobi Steppe
Royal City of Rabanastre
Seeking Power
State of Emergency
Destiny
Sorrow -Imperial Version-
Sorrow -Liberation Army Version-
Ending Movie
A Moment's Rest
Eruyt Village
Neighborhood of Water
The Mosphoran Highwaste
To the Summit

and that's completely omitting the arrangements of classic FF themes, such as Victory Fanfare, Clash on the Big Bridge, FF Main Theme, and Prelude (all of which are the best versions of each respective piece)
 
Another here for whom FFXII is all-time favorite game. So much so that I did actually get somewhat loud about defending it years ago. Very few games/topics register high enough on my radar to get so involved.
 

No Love

Banned
In defense of? This is the last great Final Fantasy game, far superior to FF X for example.

I really do need a remastered HD version of this on my Vita.
 
This is the one point which I will argue against until I'm blue in the face. Did you just not pay attention to the score? The score to FFXII is one of the most musically complex ones in the series, and its orchestration is absolutely fantastic. It easily has one of the best scores in the series. People that hate it seem to think that it not having Uematsu makes it bad, even though the worst song on the soundtrack was the one and only one composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

Boss Battle
Fight to the Death
Esper Battle
Theme of the Empire
The Cerobi Steppe
Royal City of Rabanastre
Seeking Power
State of Emergency
Destiny
Sorrow -Imperial Version-
Sorrow -Liberation Army Version-
Ending Movie
A Moment's Rest
Eruyt Village
Neighborhood of Water
The Mosphoran Highwaste
To the Summit

and that's completely omitting the arrangements of classic FF themes, such as Victory Fanfare, Clash on the Big Bridge, FF Main Theme, and Prelude (all of which are the best versions of each respective piece)

As with all music, it's a matter of opinion. It just wasn't for me. I'm not saying it was bad, it just didn't compare favourably to music from 7,8, and 10.

I'm interested in playing it again, but it somehow isn't part of the PS2 classics on PSN.
 
Didn't SE say that if X remastered did good, they would try for XII? They also said something like this would be great because then all FF games could be played on one system (PS3), with the exception of XI and XV.
 

MogCakes

Member
As with all music, it's a matter of opinion. It just wasn't for me. I'm not saying it was bad, it just didn't compare favourably to music from 7,8, and 10.

The way you phrase your messages can alter the perception of whether you're simply asserting your opinion or attempting to make a statement. Saying 'it isn't up to the standard of other games in the series' for example comes off as making a statement, not asserting an opinion, and people will interpret it that way. Saying 'XII's OST just wasn't to my taste. Didn't like it at all' is clearly an expression of opinion, not an attempt to make an objective statement.
 
The way you phrase your messages can alter the perception of whether you're simply asserting your opinion or attempting to make a statement. Saying 'it isn't up to the standard of other games in the series' for example comes off as making a statement, not asserting an opinion, and people will interpret it that way. Saying 'XII's OST just wasn't to my taste. Didn't like it at all' is clearly an expression of opinion, not an attempt to make an objective statement.

I thought it was obviously just an opinion. I don't believe there can be any absolute statements regarding art. Its all in the eye of the beholder.
 

Korigama

Member

gatti-man

Member
In defense of the best FF? No need. :)

Seriously though, it's my favorite of the series.

I was wishing beyond all hope that 13 would have been an improved take on the systems and setup of 12.

Square had a winning formula brewing.. and then did everything they could to go a complete opposite direction with 13.

Yeah I was so pumped for 13 after 12 because for me the biggest flaw of 12 was being on the ps2. That game needs an HD port so bad. After that the story was ehhh but the world and gameplay was pretty damn good.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
The controversial thing about Final Fantasy XII is that it's Final Fantasy for people who don't like Final Fantasy.

At the time people were surprised by how different it was from conventional JRPGs. A lot of other people thought XII was the direction in which JRPGs should head in the future: real time combat without transitions from exploration, and more mature storylines. I don't deny XII's execution had some flaws. The license board system begins to break around level 40, and the story didn't properly emphasize its most important elements. But still, at the time XII fixed pretty much every problem I'd had with JRPGs.

And I still don't see how it's combat is the same as MMO combat. To me XII feels sort of like a party-based western RPG but with Final Fantasy rules.
 

RSLAEV

Member
I really, really could not stand Vaan. I think after begrudgingly finishing FFX I just could not stomach another plucky bright-eyed young lad ready for adventure
 

reson8or

Member
Doesn't need defense. If someone doesn't like it, thats entirely their prerogative as it was very much unlike any FF game before it (save XI).

Many criticisms leveled against the game are accurate, but in my opinion are far outweighed by the what the game attempted and ultimately pulled off. I loved the story which shifted from whining dufuses to thoughtful adults. Even the whining kid in XII is told repeatedly to shut up when the adults are talking serious business. Its like the series was trying to grow up. Ah well.

Its one of my favorite games of all time, and made better by the stellar IZJS version.
 

reson8or

Member
This is the one point which I will argue against until I'm blue in the face. Did you just not pay attention to the score? The score to FFXII is one of the most musically complex ones in the series, and its orchestration is absolutely fantastic. It easily has one of the best scores in the series. People that hate it seem to think that it not having Uematsu makes it bad, even though the worst song on the soundtrack was the one and only one composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

Boss Battle
Fight to the Death
Esper Battle
Theme of the Empire
The Cerobi Steppe
Royal City of Rabanastre
Seeking Power
State of Emergency
Destiny
Sorrow -Imperial Version-
Sorrow -Liberation Army Version-
Ending Movie
A Moment's Rest
Eruyt Village
Neighborhood of Water
The Mosphoran Highwaste
To the Summit

and that's completely omitting the arrangements of classic FF themes, such as Victory Fanfare, Clash on the Big Bridge, FF Main Theme, and Prelude (all of which are the best versions of each respective piece)

Agree 100%. I feel it was some of Sakimoto's best work, and as with the rest of the game, maybe a little too ambitious for its intended audience.
 

haircut

Member
I've tried playing this game twice and it just isn't for me.

The characters are mostly flat and personality-free, so I didn't actually care about any of them. They all play the same, on the same license board, with no fun job system, so there was little variety and experimentation in that regard.

Battles kind of play themselves, which wasn't very engaging. Libra didn't seem to work on anything you'd actually want it to, so coming up with unique boss strategies was a no-go and it was easier to just let the team kill stuff, maybe fiddle gambits a bit. Also the fact that enemies are on the same screen made the battles a lot less dramatic/cut down on any cool presentation.

I've mostly forgotten the story; it didn't seem engaging at the time. The judges all seemed kind of same-y to me also, just another dude in armor. Also seemed like a lot of wide open boring similar areas to run through.

Looking back I'm not really sure what I was supposed to be enjoying. It's like every design decision for the game were made for the purpose of making the game less engaging and more dull.

Ivalice was a cool setting though and the moogles were really cute as I recall, so those were pluses.
 

leroidys

Member
Wait, do you need to defend FFXII? It's fairly universally adored, at least on Gaf.

Deservedly so.

At release, the game caused a huge shitstorm almost on the scale of FFXIII.

It has come to be appreciated on gaf over the years, but a lot of gaming communities are still overwhelmingly negative on it.
 

frozencool

Neo Member
Assumed spelling mistake in thread title. Was weirded out when it was not.

Either way FF12 was a wonderful FF even if it had problems unlike a certain other trilogy that was nothing but. It also had best FF girl: Fran!

Seriously that accent.
 

Spinluck

Member
everybody here knows the plot of xii borrows heavily from the original star wars trilogy, right?

Didn't they mention that in the behind the scenes stuff?

I mean, you could even see it in the CG airship fights lol.

And Balthier and Fran are basically these two.


The scene where Fran goes apeshit is one of the GOAT FF moments.

Didn't SE say that if X remastered did good, they would try for XII? They also said something like this would be great because then all FF games could be played on one system (PS3), with the exception of XI and XV.

Oh my god.. don't do this to me.
 

reson8or

Member
If you're going to talk about ripping off, you have to star with what Star Wars was ripped off of, and thats The Hidden Fortress. A lot of stories have similar archetypal characters and they all in one way or another borrow from each other, that is how myths work. They are their own take on the hero's story. Makes me laugh when people use Star Wars as an example.
 
Since people want to talk about FFXII being a "star wars rip off", let's talk about it.

FFXII is only "Star Wars" if you look at it from a very basic level, to the point that EVERY story would be the same.

Things that are similar:
Princess fighting empire with ragtag group of rebels.

That's about it. You can draw comparisons between Balthier and Fran vs Han and Chewbacca, as well other elements but they don't hold up under closer scrutiny.

First and foremost: Archadia in FFXII isn't "evil", certainly not even close to being shown as tyrannical like the empire is in Star Wars.

The game goes to great lengths to show there are good people within the empire. Balthier, Larsa, and Reddas are the strongest examples of this (though I should note that both Balthier and Reddas are technically "defected"), but I'd say Drace, Gramis Solidor and ultimately Gabranth are also positive examples as well. Hell, even Dr. Cid and Vayne are shown to have noble intentions. The empire in Star Wars is purely despotic, with no redeeming traits. It needed to be destroyed.

Archades isn't nearly the same league. Even in Dalmasca, the occupation isn't portrayed as being that harsh to the people. Sure there are some dickheaded soldiers, but most people are treated fairly and are free to go about their lives. Yes, at the end of the game Vayne tries to destroy Rabanastre, but that is after being pushed to do so by Ashe and her party. In a lot of ways, the main party could easily be seen as the villains (a theme reinforced by the fact that you summon the villains of FFT to do your bidding).

Once again, one of the main story threads is the continued questioning of Ashes' motivations: Is she truly trying to liberate her people, or does she just want revenge. There is nothing even close to that thematically in Star Wars.

Regarding Balthier and Fran vs Han Solo and Chewbacca. They don't have nearly the same dynamic. Chewbacca is kind of Han Solo's brawn. He doesn't come across as very intelligent (though apparently he is also the Falcon's mechanic? Bullshit. Every time Chewbacca tried to fix something, it wasn't really fixed and ended up breaking down at the worst moments). Fran is certainly physically imposing, as seen by her freak out scenes, but she is also shown to be hyper intelligent. She is Balthier's pointman. Her insight into the more ethereal elements of the world also comes into play far more often. Also, in terms of story structure, Chewbacca serves as comedic relief. Fran does not fit that role.

Regarding Balthier himself. Balthier is categorized as suave and cunning. Han Solo is pretty rude. I guess you could say they're both "bad boys", but with very different regards. Balthier is much more cultured. Furthermore, they have wildly different story arcs. Han Solo's main arc regards him going from being a lone wolf, to being an integral part of a team. Reliable, and loyal. Balthier's story arc centers around him coming to terms with his relationship with his father. By the end of Star Wars, Solo is now a general. By the end of FFXII, Balthier is still a sky pirate, just one who has resolved his emotional issues
 

Damaniel

Banned
This is the one point which I will argue against until I'm blue in the face. Did you just not pay attention to the score? The score to FFXII is one of the most musically complex ones in the series, and its orchestration is absolutely fantastic. It easily has one of the best scores in the series. People that hate it seem to think that it not having Uematsu makes it bad, even though the worst song on the soundtrack was the one and only one composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

Boss Battle
Fight to the Death
Esper Battle
Theme of the Empire
The Cerobi Steppe
Royal City of Rabanastre
Seeking Power
State of Emergency
Destiny
Sorrow -Imperial Version-
Sorrow -Liberation Army Version-
Ending Movie
A Moment's Rest
Eruyt Village
Neighborhood of Water
The Mosphoran Highwaste
To the Summit

and that's completely omitting the arrangements of classic FF themes, such as Victory Fanfare, Clash on the Big Bridge, FF Main Theme, and Prelude (all of which are the best versions of each respective piece)

The main issue that a lot of people have with the non-Uematsu FF games is that the tracks mostly lack 'hummability' - Uematsu's songs tend to have very distinct melodies that stick with you and that you find yourself humming at random times. I could hum or whistle any of the fight or boss themes from the earlier FF games, for example, but would be really hard pressed to do that for XII. The more orchestral soundtracks of the later games lack that particular feature, but I tend to prefer them more. In fact, I'd argue that XII is my favorite of the FF soundtracks (followed closely by VI and VII) overall.

(Of course, I was a huge fan of the soundtrack for Final Fantasy Tactics, and you can hear the influence all over FFXII's soundtrack.)
 
I don't like having to decide how to specialize my characters for combat. I prefer the more straight forward approach of older Final Fantasies where you have classes of healers, black magic, white magic etc. However the gambit system was pretty cool and not that hard to understand.I need to finish FFXII someday.
 
Very informative thread, OP, thanks for writing this.

Final Fantasy XII is personally my favourite of all the Final Fantasies, with FFX second. I never understood the hate directed at it.
 

Vlade

Member
I have been playing final fantasy games since the release of the first. Ff12 is my favorite one. I love the story, it is a reimagining of the formula used in the originals performed with voice actors. I love the gameplay. It is one of my favorite games of all time.

I actually feel bad for the folks who didn't like it. It is a gaming experience for me that I love sharing and talking about with other fans who it clicked with. I played through the entire game with my daughter.

The ire it receives is something I don't understand. I do get that the change to gambits was big and you are bound to lose people in a big change, but the game was extremely well done.

It has its flaws, mainly how the story feels like it has gaps, or that the hunting license is missable... But nothing that makes it less than a top shelf game.
 

Koozek

Member
Haha, there are some rumors popping up from "reliable sources" that FFXII HD will be announced at E3. To be taken with a grain of salt, of course.
 

OuterLimits

Member
While I enjoyed the game, I thought the story and characters were pretty weak overall. The treasure chests also drove me crazy.
 
My question about FFXII is why is the sound quality of voices so bad? I mean, the acting is fine, but it sounds like they used terrible recording equipment.
 
I'm playing through it now for the first time. Full disclosure I'm playing the english patched IZJS on PC via PCSX2, and I've just finished the whole Panelo and Ashe rescue from the Leviathan bit.

For starters, holy shit I almost didn't even get as far as I did because I got so damned tired of fucking linear underground dungeons and sewers. After the initial tutorial hour in Rabanastre, it's like 5-6 hours of gameplay before you actually get to go anywhere that isn't brown or tan colored and has more than one branching path (thank christ for IZJS's L1 fast forward). Admittedly, once I got out of the passage and beat that giant spider boss (the first proper boss in the game it seems) the game started to grow on me, allowing a bit more freedom and exploration. And the exploration has been surprisingly fun, even in the still mostly restricted area of Rabanastre and its immediate surroundings. Lotta great environment art (though helped by PCSX2 upscaling), and the mob design is certainly a bit more interesting than most other FF's standard beginning enemy fair. Wish the maps weren't so disjointed, but I get that it's probably a limitation of PS2 hardware. The music is serviceable, but no way does it come close to the level of Uematsu at his best.

The battle system has its merits, but at least at the start I really wish there was more to do than just straight melee attack with the occasional healing spell in the beginning. Cooler technicks and attack magics have taken too long to unlock. As OP said, though, it is basically just ATB with field movement, and I don't have much issue with that. I rarely use gambits, but I also like the more precise and tactical micromanagement anyway. I just started using quickenings (though was given no explanation on how to use them), which have this kind of quick-timey mechanic to them which I guess is alright, but it seems completely random whether you'll actually get a button to press for another party member to continue the chain regardless of how quickly you reacted on the previous one. The shuffle also seems to be far too random to be of any real use. I will say this though, it's one of the few final fantasy's that actually presents an ongoing and significant combat challenge in the form of marks. Some of these were tough, admittedly sometimes just kind of spamming a shitload of potions and phoenix downs kinda tough, but it was nice to have something to keep me on my toes while leveling (and actually having to use stuff like attack items and elixirs). Genuinely love the marks system. Also as always I like the fact that I occasionally risk running into some uber powered or higher level mobs in the field, gives the game a bit more depth and genuine risk when out and about. Nothing like feeling you're badass enough to take on a wild Saurian only to nope the fuck out 10 seconds later when balthier goes down on one snap to the noggin.

I'm not crazy about the Zodiac job system and licenses. While the fact that LP is earned via mob kills and is thus infinitely farmable is comforting, it's a little daunting trying to figure out where to go to properly balance your party in the interim. Licenses to use weapons and armor is straight up stupid, but the choice to prioritize between a leg with more attack bonuses versus one with more health bonuses versus one with more remedy/potion/item based bonuses is kinda neat. In practice though I've gotten to the point with nearly all my characters where I maximize health and attack first and then job specific stuff later. It's annoying as hell to find a neat weapon loot (which there are far too few of, another gripe) but be unable to use it because its license is stuck behind a chain of stupid "one more gambit slot" squares. And as I've said, the tangible rewards for exploration usually in the form of loot have been extremely lacking. 99% it's more potions or eye drops or some such, and monsters only ever drop what appears to be glorified vendor trash, even when I get chain mob kills (another unexplained mechanic). Granted I haven't explored the bazaar system that much, but it's yet another one of those unexplained "throw shit at it til you get something" kind of systems requiring a wiki at the ready which I absolutely hate.

Hoo boy the story though. I'm sure there's some great epic hidden in there somewhere, but by god if it hasn't been a giant mess of esoteric name dropping and lore dumping for most of this first act. It's taken me forever to try to memorize the names of all these damn people and places, especially when that intro drops it all at once expecting you to have some kinda notebook at the ready. Other FF's were far more piecemeal and better paced in the unveiling of the world and its characters, whereas thus far FFXII has been a chaotic chain of 5 minutes of fame half characters. Vaan is for sure annoying, but obviously the fish out of water protag trope and tolerable as such. Balthier sounds like a total douche, though, and needs to speak as little as possible. Which brings me to another thing, the voice acting in this thing has been so off kilter. Some scenes are really great, while some are absolutely cringeworthy (that faux Indian accent from that old guy Dalon or whatever is probably some of the worst I've ever heard). Granted jrpg's have always had that kitschy melodrama feel to the writing and voicing, so it's mostly been par for the course. I haven't finished the game so I can't really comment on the story as a whole, but at least there's hope that it gets more interesting. The idea of Basch being some kind of Dark Knight esque anti hero is cool, though the "herp derp btdubs I have an evil twin" reveal was stupid.
 

ronito

Member
It took me three tries to get through FFXII. And the only way I made it was with the Zodiac System, any other way the game just feels incomplete.

I found it a mixed bag for every good there's a bad. The dialogue is legendary and the graphics are beautiful. But there's some serious issues with their dungeon design (what the hell was up with that damned crystal dungeon?). The mark system was great for about 20 hours but the combat was mostly "eh". Really with just a few minutes of planning you can setup a gambit that works 90% of the time and the game can just play itself. I personally didn't see the point. If a battle can just be automated, why is it even in the game at all? The music was mixed as well. There were a few good pieces but much of it fell into "forgettable" for me. Basch, Balthier and Fran, Vaan and Penelo. Summons were pretty worthless and the pacing was terrible. But the world was amazing, and perhaps the best realized world since VII.

All that said, if they made an HD release I'd be sorta interested, so long as it was the Zodiac System. No Zodiac system, no sale.
 
The Ivalice Final Fantasy games are my favorite ones in the series, and this is just below Tactics for me. I just wish Matsuno got to finish it.
 

Myths

Member
"In defense", as though XII ever needed defending. It's an excellent entry in the series and touchstone for RPGs period. All we need now is a IZJSHD Vita/PS3/PS4.
 

Yasae

Banned
This is the one point which I will argue against until I'm blue in the face. Did you just not pay attention to the score? The score to FFXII is one of the most musically complex ones in the series, and its orchestration is absolutely fantastic. It easily has one of the best scores in the series. People that hate it seem to think that it not having Uematsu makes it bad, even though the worst song on the soundtrack was the one and only one composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

Boss Battle
Fight to the Death
Esper Battle
Theme of the Empire
The Cerobi Steppe
Royal City of Rabanastre
Seeking Power
State of Emergency
Destiny
Sorrow -Imperial Version-
Sorrow -Liberation Army Version-
Ending Movie
A Moment's Rest
Eruyt Village
Neighborhood of Water
The Mosphoran Highwaste
To the Summit

and that's completely omitting the arrangements of classic FF themes, such as Victory Fanfare, Clash on the Big Bridge, FF Main Theme, and Prelude (all of which are the best versions of each respective piece)
I rag on the soundtrack mostly from a technical POV. The sample libraries are baaaaad, in many cases worse than say FFX. It takes what could be decent music and turns it into a big pile of programmed mush. The results sound cheap.
 
All this talk makes me want to go right back into it and start a new game file.
Wish I had my hands on a translated copy of the Zodiac International Edition.

Just thinking about it makes me ponder on what a killer title this would make as an HD PS3 and Vita release.
 
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