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Kim Kardashian's night out RUINED by attendant in BLACKFACE :biblio:

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Um... about that.

RACISM-MAP_620x355.jpg

I dont know about racism rankings but the netherlands is gray in that map, so for all you know he could still be right.

Did you even read what I quoted?

I dont follow, he was a slave and Sinterklaas liberated him, therefore making him stop being a slave. Whats the issue here.

PS: All this said, taking into account todays world and how it operates in a globalised sense, the tradition should be removed because of the fact that a lot of people feel offended and it depicts a black person in a stereotipical way (which doesnt seem to have been the original intent of the story back in the 19th century).
 
Did you even read what I quoted?

"Another, more modern story"

If I write a book now saying that Christmas elves are abducted small people, does that make Christmas Elves discrimination in 20 years?

"(though some people said Zwarte Piet was originally a slave who, when Sinterklaas bought him his freedom, was so grateful that he stayed to assist him)"

That doesn't sound like he was Sinterklaas' slave. And a servant isn't a slave.
 
"Another, more modern story"

If I write a book now saying that Christmas elves are abducted small people, does that make Christmas Elves discrimination in 20 years?

"(though some people said Zwarte Piet was originally a slave who, when Sinterklaas bought him his freedom, was so grateful that he stayed to assist him)"

That doesn't sound like he was Sinterklaas' slave. And a servant isn't a slave.

Elves are mythical creatures if an elf tells me he/she is offended I would stop including them when talking about Christmas to children.

Your tradition offends me as a black person, how bout you stop.
 
Elves are mythical creatures if an elf tells me he/she is offended I would stop including them when talking about Christmas to children.

Your tradition offends me as a black person, how bout you stop.

I'm sure that there's people offended by it because they lack the cultural context to understand it. Just as Muslims are offended by girls wearing shorts. So should we make shorts illegal?
 
I dont follow, he was a slave and Sinterklaas liberated him, therefore making him stop being a slave. Whats the issue here.

"Another, more modern story"

That doesn't sound like he was Sinterklaas' slave. And a servant isn't a slave.

I would argue that by doing all the work, making the toys, and delivering them, without getting paid, they're slaves. And before you argue, yes technically elves are slaves too, in my opinion.

I'm sure these tales were also not written from a black persons perspective.
 
I would argue that by doing all the work, making the toys, and delivering them, without getting paid, they're slaves. And before you argue, yes technically the elves are slaves too, in my opinion.

I would argue that because their work is voluntary, they're not slaves. But thanks for at least acknowledging the same applies to American tradition. For that you have my respect.
 
I would argue that by doing all the work, making the toys, and delivering them, without getting paid, they're slaves. And before you argue, yes technically the elves are slaves too, in my opinion.

Huh? A servant is paid. I got 6 servants in my house, right now. Another term for them is domestic workers. Are my 3 maids slaves? I pay them a really good salary. If someone doesnt get paid for their work in some way why would they work for them if they are not slaves?
 

spekkeh

Banned
I would argue that by doing all the work, making the toys, and delivering them, without getting paid, they're slaves. And before you argue, yes technically elves are slaves too, in my opinion.

I'm sure these tales were also not written from a black persons perspective.

Sinterklaas/Zwarte Piet don't make toys like the elves do. They're incredibly wealthy, live comfortably in sunny Spain and buy all the toys from the shops. Once a year they gift away toys to children out of philantropy. The extent of racism in the story is that he's black and called a servant, which I agree is a very unfortunate depiction, probably modeled after then colonial mores. But the practice now is that he's not considered a real servant anymore, let alone a slave.

(meant as clarification not defending)
 

Wazzy

Banned
I'm sure that there's people offended by it because they lack the cultural context to understand it. Just as Muslims are offended by girls wearing shorts. So should we make shorts illegal?
This is a logical fallacy.

You're comparing someone disliking a women wearing shorts, something that isn't culturally relevant to someone being offended by black face, a stereotype of black people.
 
Then why is he called a servant and not a slave. Servants are paid, they have always been paid in some way. Either by a salary or by shelter and food.

Someone just made it up it seems

Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe, according to a long-standing theory,[10] originally must have represented such an enslaved devil, forced to assist his captor. This chained and fire-scorched devil somehow re-emerged in the 19th-century Netherlands in the likeness of a Moor, as a servant of Saint Nicholas.
In 1850, Amsterdam-based primary school teacher Jan Schenkman published the book Sint Nikolaas en zijn Knecht ("Saint Nicholas and his Servant"). This is the first time that a servant character is introduced into the Saint Nicholas narrative.
 
This is a logical fallacy.

You're comparing someone disliking a women wearing shorts, something that isn't culturally relevant to someone being offended by black face, a stereotype of black people.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Things-That-Offend-Muslims.htm

Let's make everything that is offensive to someone illegal.

Regardless of what you do, it will offend someone, somewhere due to a lack of cultural context. Anything could become a racial stereotype (e.g. chicken) without it being intrinsically related to a racist idea.
 

Wazzy

Banned
http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Things-That-Offend-Muslims.htm

Let's make everything that is offensive to someone illegal.

Regardless of what you do, it will offend someone, somewhere due to a lack of cultural context. Anything could become a racial stereotype (e.g. chicken) without it being intrinsically related to a racist idea.
There's many things we know are objectively offensive. You wouldn't claim that murder, rape, theft, etc, is okay.

So with that in mind, these objectively wrong things apply to many other aspects of society. A women has a right to wear shorts. If someone is telling a women wearing shorts that they're offended then they're being sexist. That is something they don't have a right to be offended by. Do you think it's okay to take away a womens rights because of religious beliefs?

This also applies to racial stereotypes, such as black face. It's not okay to stereotype and black face is one of the worst cases of it.
 
Someone just made it up it seems

This is what i was trying to get at. The story is so convoluted that i really think that bringing its origins introduces more harm than good to the discussion. We should focus on how its current representation is really fucking stupid in todays world.
 
This is what i was trying to get at. The story is so convoluted that i really think that bringing its origins introduces more harm than good to the discussion. We should focus on how its current representation is really fucking stupid in todays world.

But its the history and tradition that defenders are latching on to, and as you can see, it's all bullshit.
 
But its the history and tradition that defenders are latching on to, and as you can see, it's all bullshit.

Imagine if someone came to you snd said something you believed was complete bullshit and it sucked. Atacking it from the same angle they are defending doesnt work. If you want people to change harmfull views you gotta shift the conversatiom to more ovious and in the face problems that their views create.
 
http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Things-That-Offend-Muslims.htm

Let's make everything that is offensive to someone illegal.

Regardless of what you do, it will offend someone, somewhere due to a lack of cultural context. Anything could become a racial stereotype (e.g. chicken) without it being intrinsically related to a racist idea.

So this a website you frequent

The intent of the list is to illustrate the futility of the multicultural approach to Islam. Sharia law demands submission not only from Muslims, but from non-Muslims as well. This makes respectful coexistence nearly impossible with Muslims in Infidel lands. The examples below serve as reminder that submitting to one complaint or another only emboldens Muslims to seek to further their ultimate goal of establishing sharia.

Its all becoming clear now
 
I think what we're seeing is that the Dutch have been trying hard to disconnect Zwarte Piet from the obvious black Moor caricature that he unquestionably is/was. Over the course of many generations, the design been slowly transforming into what seems to be a fictional fantasy species akin to Smurfs. In a way it's cool that it's not associated with black people by those that celebrate the holiday. The caricature is absurdly abstract enough that it doesn't look like a real person, so I could see how it could technically work. It's just unfortunate that essentially the same design sometimes still pops up in some pretty ugly contexts, and has such a loaded history.

I can only hope that his design does keep evolving and moving away from the original. Both for narrative consistency (either sooth affects the clothes and lips as well, or it doesn't affect affect all of the skin ffs), as well as for how it is perceived globally. Even if you perfectly reclaim the depiction and change the back story for your own country, people from other cultures will not have grown up with all the ret-cons, nor do they have the fuzzy feelings associated attached with the holiday. They'll cynically see it for what it was, and what it still may be.

If Piet is so important to keep, maybe the government should make some proper efforts to elevate the design from what it is currently. Here's to hoping 2017 Piet is practically a catfish-man where "black" is nothing but a mere palette choice.
 

Slayven

Member
You mean this one?



That sounds a lot more like opinion than fact.

Racism:
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

None of that applies with the examples I named. Zwarte Piet or Fandom is not prejudice against a different race. It's not discriminating or antagonizing a race. And it's certainly not saying that one race is superior over the other.

Blackface is racist because of cultural context, not because painting your face black is inherently racist.

Otherwise I might as well call the American tradition of green small men being Santa's helpers "a shitty cultural tradition", that discriminates against small people.
Real talk why does it always come down to comparing black people to a fictional thing? We are real, we are here everyday, Legolas isn't
 

Arjen

Member
Why didn't someone we were having a zwarte piet thread? It's so damn early this year the pepernoten are not even in store.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Real talk why does it always come down to comparing black people to a fictional thing? We are real, we are here everyday, Legolas isn't

I think Earthpainting said it expertly (and is so on point that this thread might well be closed hehe); for Dutch people the Zwarte Piet is a fictional thing that has no bearing on reality. (S)He's black but not a race, because (s)he's an abstract concept, not human. Of course that could make it even worse (the magical negro) if you still tie it to human history. Which most Dutch people don't. Still, I for one would embrace catfish-man.
 

DY_nasty

NeoGAF's official "was this shooting justified" consultant
best part is the 'kids love it'

with the complete ignorance around how significant of an impact that is
 

Arjen

Member
my 2 cents.

Is zwarte piet ment as a mockery against black people?
Nope.
Is the image of zwarte piet racist and offending a lot of people?
It seems so, so yes.
I'm not black, i can't decide what's offensive to them, but if it is, we might want to change some things.
What's the solution?
Adept to the soot story, lose the red lips and afro, instead of a full black face have it be smudges of soot.

See you next year.
 

TCRS

Banned
my 2 cents.

Is zwarte piet ment as a mockery against black people?
Nope.
Is the image of zwarte piet racist and offending a lot of people?
It seems so, so yes.
I'm not black, i can't decide what's offensive to them, but if it is, we might want to change some things.
What's the solution?
Adept to the soot story, lose the red lips and afro, instead of a full black face have it be smudges of soot.

See you next year.

pretty much. it's not like he hasn't evolved in the past. just get rid of the red lips and afro hair.
 
Ok. So I did just a small bit of research, and it turns out American blackface minstrel acts were popularly touring in the UK, Europe, and S. Africa as early as the late-1840's. Anybody wanna hazard a guess as to how close on the timeline these tours and the emergence of Zwarte Piet are connected?
 

Kinvara

Member
Here's today's Canada Day™ ProTip:

If your cultural traditions are based on race-baiting caricatures such as big red lips, kinky afro hair and slapping black paint on your face, it's a shitty cultural tradition. Full stop.

Morons.

Thank you so much.

Hopefully, this ends the ridiculous discu....

To give some context... I grew up in the Netherlands, with Zwarte Piet bringing me my favorite weeks of the year. Sinterklaas' helper was always someone I liked better than the man himself.

Years later I moved to Sweden, and then to the U.K. It was only in the U.K. that I came to know about the concept of Blackface. I had never heard of it before, and was unaware of a negative relation to black people, and didn't understand why it was considered racist until I learned more about how it was related to American history.

For as far as I'm concerned, culture determines the meaning behind imagery and concepts, which is why dressing up as a black man may be acceptable in one country, but not in another. I find it narrow minded to judge and accuse one country of being racist because their cultural values and history mismatch that of yours.

Sure Blackface may have existed in European shows, but that doesn't mean it carried the same negative weight as it did in the U.S.

Europe also isn't innocent of slave trade, but our culture was much less exposed to it than that of America.

To close this off, I'd like to emphasise that characters such as Zwarte Piet are not considered racism in the Netherlands for one simple reason - children learn to love them, and to children, they are a lot more relate-able than the white man with a beard called Sinterklaas. Likewise, a white man dressing up as Kanye West and colouring his face to finalise the look isn't necessarily racist either. If it was done out of fandom and not mockery, I feel it can actually be positive.

Oh, never mind.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
You paint yourself black to play a role, not to mock a race. It's fucking stage makeup, there's no inherent racist context. What else are you supposed to do if you have a black character but no black actor to play the part?


Damn if only black people were into acting in 2014....the struggle continues....
 

Zaph

Member
When my wife grew up in Great Britain she had a Golliwog.

[ img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Golliwoggs_on_sale_2008.jpg/360px-Golliwoggs_on_sale_2008.jpg[/img]

That. Pretty weird.

Yup, I still partially remember the fuss when they were phased out during the late 80's and early 90's. Books were re-printed, branding changed etc.

It's now very rare to see one outside of historical toy auctions and the odd idiot who tries to make a stand with them - usually with them ending up falling on their sword in handcuffs.

Just like when we banned guns after the Dunblane school massacre, yeah it pisses off a lot of (mostly old) people who don't like change, but so what? Change is part of life.

I don't know why people try to pretend that moving past certain remnants of culture and tradition is a bad thing or unheard of. A national identity isn't a singular, stagnant entity - it moves, evolves and changes.
 
I think what we're seeing is that the Dutch have been trying hard to disconnect Zwarte Piet from the obvious black Moor caricature that he unquestionably is/was. Over the course of many generations, the design been slowly transforming into what seems to be a fictional fantasy species akin to Smurfs. .

According to my brief amount of research, I'm starting to believe the notion that Zwarte Piet is an "obvious black Moor caricature" is quite questionable as well.

The popularity of touring blackface American minstrel acts in the UK, Europe, and S. Africa (with its obviously large Dutch community) in the mid-late 1840s and the emergence/evolution of the blackface/red lips character of Zwarte Piet in the 1850s-60s simply doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me. To me, it appears obvious that the main characteristics of the visual representation of the character was likely an appropriation of the blackface imagery in these touring American shows that was happening at the time.

I would like someone to produce some evidence that "black Moors" were ever depicted in this way in Europe before the emergence of these touring groups from America. If it is really a thing, it shouldn't be so hard to find.
 
To give some context... I grew up in the Netherlands, with Zwarte Piet bringing me my favorite weeks of the year. Sinterklaas' helper was always someone I liked better than the man himself.

Years later I moved to Sweden, and then to the U.K. It was only in the U.K. that I came to know about the concept of Blackface. I had never heard of it before, and was unaware of a negative relation to black people, and didn't understand why it was considered racist until I learned more about how it was related to American history.

For as far as I'm concerned, culture determines the meaning behind imagery and concepts, which is why dressing up as a black man may be acceptable in one country, but not in another. I find it narrow minded to judge and accuse one country of being racist because their cultural values and history mismatch that of yours.

Sure Blackface may have existed in European shows, but that doesn't mean it carried the same negative weight as it did in the U.S.

Europe also isn't innocent of slave trade, but our culture was much less exposed to it than that of America.

To close this off, I'd like to emphasise that characters such as Zwarte Piet are not considered racism in the Netherlands for one simple reason - children learn to love them, and to children, they are a lot more relate-able than the white man with a beard called Sinterklaas. Likewise, a white man dressing up as Kanye West and colouring his face to finalise the look isn't necessarily racist either. If it was done out of fandom and not mockery, I feel it can actually be positive.

TdT.gif


I knew it wasn't over. This will not end well.
 
According to my brief amount of research, I'm starting to believe the notion that Zwarte Piet is an "obvious black Moor caricature" is quite questionable as well.

The popularity of touring blackface American minstrel acts in the UK, Europe, and S. Africa (with its obviously large Dutch community) in the mid-late 1840s and the emergence/evolution of the blackface/red lips character of Zwarte Piet in the 1850s-60s simply doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me. To me, it appears obvious that the main characteristics of the visual representation of the character was likely an appropriation of the blackface imagery in these touring American shows that was happening at the time.

I would like someone to produce some evidence that "black Moors" were ever depicted in this way in Europe before the emergence of these touring groups from America. If it is really a thing, it shouldn't be so hard to find.

Not that I really care about it but there is the Mohr in Struwwelpeter from 1845.

http://abload.de/img/dermohrz5spl.jpg

"In "Die Geschichte von den schwarzen Buben" (The Story of the Black Boys), Saint Nicholas catches three boys teasing a dark-skinned boy. To teach them a lesson, he dips the three boys in black ink, to make them even darker-skinned than the boy they'd teased."
 
Good chance it was set up to fuel drama in the show. Can't get disgusted or find the time to care.
It's safe to assume that something on reality TV is scripted. Especially if it's something that causes drama to base an episode around. I'd make the point that it feels a little gross to exploit such imagery for entertainment, but that gets eerily close to looping us back into the Zwarte Piet territory. ' '<

According to my brief amount of research, I'm starting to believe the notion that Zwarte Piet is an "obvious black Moor caricature" is quite questionable as well.

The popularity of touring blackface American minstrel acts in the UK, Europe, and S. Africa (with its obviously large Dutch community) in the mid-late 1840s and the emergence/evolution of the blackface/red lips character of Zwarte Piet in the 1850s-60s simply doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me. To me, it appears obvious that the main characteristics of the visual representation of the character was likely an appropriation of the blackface imagery in these touring American shows that was happening at the time.

I would like someone to produce some evidence that "black Moors" were ever depicted in this way in Europe before the emergence of these touring groups from America. If it is really a thing, it shouldn't be so hard to find.
Perhaps you're right, but I mainly meant that the design he is known for is clearly rooted in a caricature of a black person. Which specific variety of black person probably matters very little in the grander scheme. The reason I said Moor is because that's what the clothing suggested.

Either way, I checked some South African and Dutch sources and they seem to confirm your observations of the timeline.
 
Europe's colonial history in continental Africa reads like a 19th century version of Operation Barbarossa. The Belgians in the Congo, the Italians in Ethiopia and Somalia, the German genocide in modern day Namibia, the list goes on and on. What they did there was shocking, even by the standards of the time.
 

YoungHav

Banned
Out of all the crazy fucked up stories on GAF, Black Pete still remains the most polarizing figure. More infamous than OJ Simpson.
 

Fritz

Member
Probably hired by the production team.
What are the chances of that guy meeting kim among hundreds of people.

For context: she was "invited to" aka payed to attend the Opernball - a well known event - by some infamous Austrian entrepreneur that invites a celebrity every year and announces "this year's guest" prior to the event. He rents one if the balconies or séparés at the opera house so everybody can locate them.

It's easy to get close to her if you pay for a ticket to the event.
 
I find it hypocritical of someone like Kim to ponder how a classless clown made it to an upscale event when we know the only reason she made it there was by releasing a video of her getting poked by Ray J. Who is she to talk class? Utterly ridiculous.

Yea, fucking your boyfriend on camera is the equivalent of being a racist asshole.
 
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