Thanks for the response. I was not factoring in the cost of the optimization on the developper side, they may chose not to dive too deep this time around.
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Digital Foundry - Metro Redux (Console Analysis)
- Thread starter stryke
- Start date
Thanks for the response. I was not factoring in the cost of the optimization on the developper side, they may chose not to dive too deep this time around.
Handy Fake
Member
Fun fact: once you've cleared the area, if you stand underneath that light and throw a bottle into the air, the shadow casts across all the buildings.
Great fun.
Gamerblood
Banned
One version of the game being better is a completely objective thing. This is known threw actual testing of the game. If you don't care about the differences that's absolutely fine. To pretend they are equal is just factually wrong.
Artifacting yes, but TLoU and Uncharted did it well without inducing much of it, especially the Remaster where it's pretty much non existent. Also volumetric lighting should look soft because it's basically light interacting with dust particles and dust particles give it a soft edge, I always had a personal dislike of how sharp it looked in Metro 2033.
In TLoU, all enemy flash lights are volumetric, plus a lot of lights.
Example of enemy flash light interacting with player.
http://i.cubeupload.com/hfYtmz.jpg
Here you can see the shadow it produces despite the light being off screen (screen space light shafts don't produce shadow shafts...or whatever they are called). This isn't the best shot that I could take in this location but it's apparent near his head.
http://i.imgur.com/uFsFTkt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qJrWTjC.jpg
Any artifacts you see (like Joel's T shirt in the last pic, is due to Facebook)
This looks really bad.
Dictator93
Member
Those are quite "sharp" volumetrics (the edges of the beam, not the internal shadows)... are you sure you dislike the ones in metro?
Interesting to see, thanks for the pictures. It is a shame the images are of such low quality and very few show the actually shadow beams (object intersection).
Interesting to see, thanks for the pictures. It is a shame the images are of such low quality and very few show the actually shadow beams (object intersection).
I don't see it.
I've seen far worse implementation and you also have to give it credit for being a last gen game, they did not upgrade the post processing effect or the shader quality in the remaster so it essentially is PS3 quality at higher resolution. (the lights I mean)
I haven't seen 2033 recently, but I remember not liking it as much as Crysis 1 back in the day precisely because of how sharp they looked.
The TLoU lights have sharp edges but the light volume itself looks quite soft which is what bothered me the most with Metro.
And I'd take better pictures if I could but PS4 share button has a lot of lag when taking screenshots so I miss the shadows when it's there but all of them do cast the shadow beams.
Dictator93
Member
Not many people have x1800-x1950 gen card lying around any longer...
Will this do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vgIRTdXdio
It's bad compared to Metro:
I wasn't comparing it to Metro, my point was the game ran it on PS3, also the look is kind of stylized (much like Alan Wake and the alien ship in Crysis).
Plus I'm not sure if the lighting in that particular shot is really volumetric, it could be baked shafts as well (the game does use them too). I won't be able to tell unless there's any sort of object intersection or see it in movement.
Dictator93
Member
That is from LL and I am 100% sure it is a baked one. LL is full of them.
2033:
etc...
They have a penumbra effect within the shadow intersection. They start sharp and end diffuse.
Some of the more zealous posters have left, you wont be getting a reply for speaking too much sense.
Thanks for confirming this, with so much money on consoles and them being lead platforms, I think they will.
Those systems are still way more powerful than a 360. One of the games is running at 800x600.
That card isn't even nearly as powerful as a 360 though, no? So it might not be as good a comparison even if it's newer. It possibly still illustrates the trend though...I wonder how it fared vs console in BF2 then 3 then 4.
Unfortunately I can't find much info on x1950 with BF3...however I don't think it meets the requirements for BF4 at all. You can see videos of someone playing Skyrim with a X1950, but it's at half the res of the console version. Checking other sites I'm not sure the X1950 met minimum requirements for some of the other games mentioned.
On the other hand, the last two videos you link to above are actually of a 8800GTS...depending on which GTS that is, it's to one or other degree not very equivalent to console hw for the opposite reason as the 8600GT.
However, would you contend that any of these GPUs fared as well against consoles last year as they did in 2006/7?
Maybe the same trends won't manifest this gen, maybe it won't be as long a gen either, who knows. Anyway, this is probably a broader discussion than Metro...
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
It's crushed, John.
edit: But there's also this, which isn't a fault of the game or PS4 video output.
It's a real thing, the problem is that the term is horribly exaggerated by one side and overly downplayed by the other to the point where these arguments are worthless. Same thing happens when arguing diminishing returns. The reality is that it varies a substantial amount from process to process, game to game, and developer to developer to the point where very few people that aren't developers on a specific game can really weigh in anything related to it.
I also don't know why it's really a big deal at all in this thread. These games are running at 1080/60 on console hardware and only had a couple of the most taxing effects pared back a bit. It's very impressive for a first release from a small studio on these platforms. Those effects probably would have been in if it was a 30fps release or if they were willing to tolerate more framedrops but 4A went for a locked 60.
That is from LL and I am 100% sure it is a baked one. LL is full of them.
2033:
etc...
They have a penumbra effect within the shadow intersection. They start sharp and end diffuse.
Now that's really good especially due the diffuse the distortion from mask helps too). I must mention that I never really finished 2033 as I didn't like the game much so obviously missed out on seeing a lot of areas. (The outdoors as in out in the open looked trash compared to indoors though, mostly down to aesthetics and some weird textures)
To maybe expand on that, and make it a little more precise.
//=====================
Here are the histograms for the 2nd comparison pic in the zoomed comparison.
PS4 top, XB1 bottom.
(The big spike on the left side of the PS4 distribution is also present on the XB1 image, it's just sitting on the left border because I framed these images really poorly.)
The PS4 image contents look very similar to XB1's, except compressed within a range that looks suspiciously like the bounds for the "LDR" content in limited-range RGB. There's a little bit of image content outside of that range; some of this is the "PS4" text on the image, the rest is pretty small and looks as though it's not much more than jpeg-related histogram bleeding.
Images 1 and 4 in the comparison have a similar thing going on.
//=====================
Images 3 and 5 are different. Image 3, the one with the snowy car, has this histogram, which looks more similar between PS4 and XB1:
//=====================
tl;dr DigitalFoundry probably captured some of the PS4 images from an RGB Limited source with an RGB Full receiver.
It's crushed, John.
edit: But there's also this, which isn't a fault of the game or PS4 video output.
Now, why would DF capture PS4 images differently this time around? Considering DF's reputation as the bastion of objectively and truth, I doubt they would intentionally soften the PS4 images to make it seem the difference between 912P vs 1080P isn't as quite as big as raw data suggests.
Wish Rich would post..maybe dark10x can shed some light into this?
thelastword
Banned
I really don't know why the pc guys are in here comparing a full rez pc shot to a low bitrate video shot on the console side. Volumetric lighting on the PC is very taxing and what we don't know of that comparison shot is at what rez and framerate it's running and on what PC (specwise), at what price? What we do know, is that the PS4 is running this at 60fps at 1080p. There are too many unknowns on the pc side of this comparison, so at this point it's a form of FUD from the detractors.
And again no examples.
I've given You highest end title from 2011 thats running on higher specs than console version.
Where is Your example? Real example.
----
What? Even C2D+ 8800GT combo isnt 3 times more powerful, more like 2.1-2.3 and this PC is maybe slightly more powerful, like 10-20% than past gens.
4 times powerful hardware run past gen games in 1080p and 60fps on higher specs.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Didn't expect PS4 to so handily win this. Not a surprise.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Is there any word if this game is using the Kinect allotment that was freed up to devs?
I know that the discussion about it is over and I don't necessarily disagree with you but I had to correct you on it because they are not sprites (like in Mass Effect or countless other games) as they do have a volume, they are very similar to the ones in Alan Wake. They are moving light sources (flash lights, search lights etc) and they intersect with objects to create shadow beams. The quality is obviously not as good but it was meant for the PS3.
thelastword
Banned
Yes, it uses the kinect free allotment. Read below.
The link here
Even with that, you realize that it still tears on Xbox One. I hope you were'nt expecting the xbox to match the PS4 version like for like?
Phreakuency
Banned
It's crushed, John.
edit: But there's also this, which isn't a fault of the game or PS4 video output.
Ouch. Crushed blacks are just evil. Hard to understand why anyone would chose a multiplatform game on Xbox if they owned both consoles. There's just too much of a difference you simply shouldn't be seeing for two consoles released at the same time.
Dictator93
Member
After all is said in done, the game will look pretty damn cool.
This thread needs some "get psyched webms."
GET PSYCHED!
http://a.pomf.se/chtwqv.webm
http://a.pomf.se/fpafzc.webm
http://a.pomf.se/pvgfdr.webm
http://a.pomf.se/yixdmk.webm
edit: man they got fucked up in encoding somehow.
This thread needs some "get psyched webms."
GET PSYCHED!
http://a.pomf.se/chtwqv.webm
http://a.pomf.se/fpafzc.webm
http://a.pomf.se/pvgfdr.webm
http://a.pomf.se/yixdmk.webm
edit: man they got fucked up in encoding somehow.
El-Pistolero
Member
Yeah, Carmack was lying through his teeth when he suggested the exact opposite of what your stance entails. Who to believe?
Is that from Redux? Also is that volumetric light in first one?
Dictator93
Member
nah, LL on my pc :/ and yeah, first webm has volumetric lighting
I'm psyched.
Sony did not, AMD did!
The 8 ACEs are part of GCN1.1 (or what ever it is called) and thus any GCN1.1 GPU will have the same, it is not unique to the consoles.
Because it is not a "reality", not to the extent that console fanboys crap on about!
That GPU is not even close to 4x as powerful as the 360's GPU nor is that CPU.
I suggest you do not speak on subjects you have no knowledge on.
Summer Haze
Banned
Wow, those are great, thanks for posting them.
I'm getting really pumped for this release.
Carmack was tlaking about a very specific benchmark and DX9. NOT modern PC API's, NOT any benchmark that is useful in terma of rela world performance in a game. Draw calls is not what all a game engine does. He's made more relevant comments since then, BTW including the one from the latest Nvidia summit earlier this year in which he said in terms of real world performance there';s relaly not much difference. And optimization on consoles isn't going to create any sort of meaningful gap.
The overhead with current API's means that CPU's do need to be more powerful than a console's in order for CPU bottlenecking not to be an issue at console level settings/resolution. But that's going away, and doesn't do much to change things when CPU isn't the bottleneck.
I was unaware of this. I'll definitely be getting this. Now I just have to decide on whether to get it on ps4 or pc.
Are you seriously suggesitng thta my 780 ti ISN'T going to outperform a PS4 for the rest fo the gen?
And, please get off your cross. Nop onme her eis calling you a console "pleb", YOU are the only one bringing such terminology into the thread.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
how come MS/AMD went with 4 on the Bone?
CyberPunked
Member
As much as think PCs are superior to consoles for gaming, I don't think that your 780ti will out perform a PS4 in, say, 5 years time. Think about it like this, it's like saying that a GeForce 7950 GT would out perform the PS3 and 360 for their whole generation. That said, a 780ti will probably out perform next-gen consoles for multi-plat games for 4-5 years
SniperHunter
Banned
Played em both on pc and pre ordered it on ps4.
These devs are awesome.
These devs are awesome.
Caayn
Member
Your comparison is faulty. The consoles aren't powered by high-end GPUs this time, instead they're equipped with low-end ones. A 780ti is multiple times faster than what's in the PS4 and Xbox One, it'll last the generation just fine while out performing the consoles.
Looks great but will wait till it drops lower. Black Friday cant come soon enough!
Odd 1080P image being downplayed in the first few pages. You guys realize that should be the standard for this gen, right? Not saying anything wrong about the xbone version but I wouldnt be arguing with someone who is using facts. (not me but those who were posting percentages)
Good job by the developer though. Getting 60FPS on both versions plus improving this game is awesome. It was a buggy game even on PC so its good they didnt just port it over.
Odd 1080P image being downplayed in the first few pages. You guys realize that should be the standard for this gen, right? Not saying anything wrong about the xbone version but I wouldnt be arguing with someone who is using facts. (not me but those who were posting percentages)
Good job by the developer though. Getting 60FPS on both versions plus improving this game is awesome. It was a buggy game even on PC so its good they didnt just port it over.
CyberPunked
Member
This is true.
What? People were pointing out that an effect is missing, even while noting clearly that the shots weren't to be taken for IQ comparison purposes.
Absolutely.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview
Says 2, not 4 and thus it looks like it is just GCN1.0, that or MS got some kind of lower end version from AMD.
The fact that newer AMD cards also have 8 ACEs does not show any indication that it was Sony's idea and not AMD's.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
ahh my mistake
cheezcake
Member
I benchmarked my OC'ed GTX 570 + 2500k on battlefield 4 campaign and it actually slightly outperformed the PS4 on roughly equivalent settings. I'll see if I can dig up the graphs again but these consoles are quite underpowered.
A 780ti will smash the PS4/X1 throughout its lifetime.