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Wii U Virtual Console - News and Releases

tebunker

Banned
The companies that should be doing it are more concerned with triple-A games on PS4 that they hope will sell three million copies, I guess. Low-hanging fruit just diverts attention away?

I think you are completely correct, trying to hit homeruns instead of a lot of singles and doubles. I agree.

You would think again, that someone would fill the void then. That's how capitalism works.

I have a hard time imagining Capcom, Konami or SE saying no to a company that comes to them, says"we will handle all the costs, you just figure out a percent of revenue you need to let us do this."
 

jholmes

Member
I think you are completely correct, trying to hit homeruns instead of a lot of singles and doubles. I agree.

You would think again, that someone would fill the void then. That's how capitalism works.

I have a hard time imagining Capcom, Konami or SE saying no to a company that comes to them, says"we will handle all the costs, you just figure out a percent of revenue you need to let us do this."

Yeah just to make this clear I completely agree with you. If I were running a company I'd be taking the easy money whenever I can, and there's no downside to re-releasing stuff on stuff like Virtual Console. To use your analogy, it'd be nice to see someone other than Nintendo try to hit for average these days.
 

tebunker

Banned
Yeah just to make this clear I completely agree with you. If I were running a company I'd be taking the easy money whenever I can, and there's no downside to re-releasing stuff on stuff like Virtual Console. To use your analogy, it'd be nice to see someone other than Nintendo try to hit for average these days.

Yeah its a subject that gets my brain going and blood a little hotter. I figured you were agreeing with me I just like barking in to the ether sometimes.

I am currently wracking my brain trying to think if there is a way to make this work, and who do I need to get in to contact with. There has to be someone going on in the background
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
There are smaller IP holders/licensors that are absolutely open to that sort of deal but bigger companies like S-E, Konami, etc aren't going to do deals with nobodies, so unless you're an established business that already has personal relationships with people at these companies you're not gonna get anywhere.

The other immediate issue is that a lot of these companies decline every single offer with "thanks but no thanks, this is something we should handle ourselves" only to... not handle it, at all.
 
I think you are completely correct, trying to hit homeruns instead of a lot of singles and doubles. I agree.

You would think again, that someone would fill the void then. That's how capitalism works.

I have a hard time imagining Capcom, Konami or SE saying no to a company that comes to them, says"we will handle all the costs, you just figure out a percent of revenue you need to let us do this."

Coming at this from a different angle, but with some crossover:

I do design and repro work for a very small outfit in the UK who reprint comic strips from the '70s and '80s. We deal with big publishers who have huge back catalogues of classic strips, but who have sold, lost, or destroyed the original films and art, and who are not in the business of re-releasing these stories but - apart from a handful of major titles - just sit on them.

We approach them, pay a licence fee on certain terms and then handle the repro (typically from high-quality scans of the comics themselves, rather than the original art) and printing, distribution etc. It's not particularly profitable or massively labour-intensive (though us working essentially for free does tip things there a little), but there is a niche that supports regular releases for a small market.

I see the majority of companies who own potential VC third-party titles in the same way as the couple of big rightsholders we deal with: they're not interested in pushing out this material themselves, as it's pretty low-margin and a small market, and if no-one is going to approach them to licence the games out and handle releases then it's never going to happen, and they'll just carry on sitting on a wealth of this stuff. Much as with our side of things, I suspect there are very few people outside these companies interested in taking on the risk (relatively small, but a risk nonetheless) of licensing and releasing VC games, particularly now that you're talking about a far, far smaller market in the Wii U userbase. You also have another wrinkle, in that pretty much every single potential VC candidate is available for free if you have a PC and a modicum of tech savvy (whereas in our position many of these strips are totally unavailable, or only available in very poor quality scans) and many of the people with the tech skills and/or business savvy are perhaps more interested in making their own games than licensing out another company's title for break-even or a small profit.

There are smaller IP holders/licensors that are absolutely open to that sort of deal but bigger companies like S-E, Konami, etc aren't going to do deals with nobodies, so unless you're an established business that already has personal relationships with people at these companies you're not gonna get anywhere.

The other immediate issue is that a lot of these companies decline every single offer with "thanks but no thanks, this is something we should handle ourselves" only to... not handle it, at all.

Ha! Yes, this is something I'm familiar with too :) It's taken a while to build trust with companies we deal with, and we still deal with them on a case-by-case basis, rather than being able to license blocks of stuff. We've also had some knockbacks on potential strips because they have vague plans for future releases, and as part of the licence we typically return high-quality scans to them which they want to hold "just in case" they decide to release digital editions (which our licence terms prevent, natch). It's like dealing with an elderly relative who has a house packed full of stuff they never use, aren't particularly interested in and have no plans for, but refuses to sell or lend out :)
 

jholmes

Member
I see the majority of companies who own potential VC third-party titles in the same way as the couple of big rightsholders we deal with: they're not interested in pushing out this material themselves, as it's pretty low-margin and a small market, and if no-one is going to approach them to licence the games out and handle releases then it's never going to happen, and they'll just carry on sitting on a wealth of this stuff. Much as with our side of things, I suspect there are very few people outside these companies interested in taking on the risk (relatively small, but a risk nonetheless) of licensing and releasing VC games, particularly now that you're talking about a far, far smaller market in the Wii U userbase. You also have another wrinkle, in that pretty much every single potential VC candidate is available for free if you have a PC and a modicum of tech savvy (whereas in our position many of these strips are totally unavailable, or only available in very poor quality scans) and many of the people with the tech skills and/or business savvy are perhaps more interested in making their own games than licensing out another company's title for break-even or a small profit.

What kills me is that Hudson was very much interested in monetizing their back catalog and getting new people interested in their old properties and then Konami bought them to basically let the portfolio rot, I guess.

Every time I think about that it really bothers me.
 

terrisus

Member
Yeah just to make this clear I completely agree with you. If I were running a company I'd be taking the easy money whenever I can, and there's no downside to re-releasing stuff on stuff like Virtual Console. To use your analogy, it'd be nice to see someone other than Nintendo try to hit for average these days.

To be fair, a down side would be if they were planning to re-release them in some other format at a higher cost.

For instance, why release 10 games at $5 each, where people might only buy 3 or 4 of them, when you can release them as a collection for $40?
Especially when, if people can buy the 3 or 4 games they want from that for a total of $20, they would pass on spending the $40 on the collection?

Now, obviously this doesn't make any sense if the company has no plans to do anything with them, or if the profit from the second scenario wouldn't surpass that from that first.
But, it's at least a possible "downside to re-releasing stuff on the VC."
 

jholmes

Member
To be fair, a down side would be if they were planning to re-release them in some other format at a higher cost.

For instance, why release 10 games at $5 each, where people might only buy 3 or 4 of them, when you can release them as a collection for $40?
Especially when, if people can buy the 3 or 4 games they want from that for a total of $20, they would pass on spending the $40 on the collection?

Now, obviously this doesn't make any sense if the company has no plans to do anything with them, or if the profit from the second scenario wouldn't surpass that from that first.
But, it's at least a possible "downside to re-releasing stuff on the VC."

SNK re-released the Metal Slug series on a Wii disc and then one by one on the Virtual Console. You could get the whole collection retail for less than buying them individually, but if you only wanted one you could spend extra. Something like Sega's old-timey Genesis collections would work the same way. So I don't see it as a binary proposition: you could put out a compilation and release them individually to the service.

We're also talking about companies like Sega, Square-Enix and SNK that are putting a lot of these games out on Steam anyway so it's not like they're trying to keep a lid on these old games.
 

terrisus

Member
SNK re-released the Metal Slug series on a Wii disc and then one by one on the Virtual Console.

Which would mean, in order to follow that method, they would have to release the collection disc first, before selling them separately,

I mean, I'm certainly not disagreeing with your general point.
Just giving an example of a reason why a company might feel it doesn't make sense for them - maybe they have thoughts of releasing a collection disc at some point, and so either don't want to release them on the VC at all, or wait until after they've put out the collection disc before doing that.
 
People expect those games to work 100% perfectly, which is why VC is not just a ROM dump.

No, it is indeed a ROM dump. VC releases are literally ROMs dumped into a standardized emulator with tweaked settings and hacks specific to individual games -- which is also the exact method used by PS1 Classics, and by most retro collections on any system. Nobody's re-engineering the entire emulator package for each game (which is good, because that would be an incredible waste of time and money) -- they build a framework once and then do tweaks as necessary to accommodate individual games. No third-party company would need three or four full-time developers to support this program, and there wouldn't have been a single third-party on Wii VC if that's what was required.

The point I was making is that if it is so cheap to do, and money is so easy to make, then why the hell is no one doing it?

Well, basically two reasons. One is that the cognitive and project-managerial load to handle releases like this can get large (larger than the technical component) if the program isn't handled well, which is why it's so important for the platform-holder (who has far and away the most to gain) streamline the process as much as possible and provide as much support as they can to the third parties who might participate.

The other is that Nintendo really, really obviously doesn't care much about the program, so why would anyone else? It's just really easy to compare how Nintendo handles the VC vs. how Sony handles PS1 Classics and make the call on which one will be more fruitful long-term.
 

tanooki27

Member
To be fair, a down side would be if they were planning to re-release them in some other format at a higher cost.

For instance, why release 10 games at $5 each, where people might only buy 3 or 4 of them, when you can release them as a collection for $40?
Especially when, if people can buy the 3 or 4 games they want from that for a total of $20, they would pass on spending the $40 on the collection?

Now, obviously this doesn't make any sense if the company has no plans to do anything with them, or if the profit from the second scenario wouldn't surpass that from that first.
But, it's at least a possible "downside to re-releasing stuff on the VC."

yeah, I think that's so. I don't believe Nintendo doesn't care about the program - more that they're highly cognizant of he fact that their backlog of classics, while extensive, won't last forever. if they dump them all at once - what will they release next year, two years from now, five, ten?

the other thing is, the trickle philosophy at work with VC is frustrating, but I believe N believes that if these classic games are released sparingly, it makes each release that much more notable.
 

jholmes

Member
The other is that Nintendo really, really obviously doesn't care much about the program, so why would anyone else? It's just really easy to compare how Nintendo handles the VC vs. how Sony handles PS1 Classics and make the call on which one will be more fruitful long-term.

Sorry, what?

Sony has gone stretches of months without new classics, spent years getting any PS2 games on their service and waited the better part of a decade to get Vib Ribbon out so while I think Nintendo needs to do better, in no way is Sony some sort of standard bearer for the concept.
 

Balb

Member
yeah, I think that's so. I don't believe Nintendo doesn't care about the program - more that they're highly cognizant of he fact that their backlog of classics, while extensive, won't last forever. if they dump them all at once - what will they release next year, two years from now, five, ten?

the other thing is, the trickle philosophy at work with VC is frustrating, but I believe N believes that if these classic games are released sparingly, it makes each release that much more notable.

Believing in that philosophy doesn't make it any less ridiculous. I can't think of any comparable service outside of video games that does something like that. They should be releasing games in large swaths and let people choose what they want. If the concern is that it'd hurt the smaller games then maybe they should actually showcase and contextual them for new audiences - explaining why they're cool and worth playing. Variable pricing would help with this too. The VC service needs a drastic revamp and Nintendo knows it.
 
This too, and it may never. Right now you have to pay weekly rental fees and churn through your monthly bandwidth to play PS1 games.

PS1 games aren't on PSNow and there is no indication that they will be. If they are brought to PS4 it follows that they would get at least the same support as the Vita does.

TAnd Vita support comes at significantly better pricing than the Virtual Console and with across-the-board crossbuy.

The North American Vita classics include 177 PS1 games according to the PSN Store. While the Wii U VC in the US only has 134 from all systems per Wikipedia.


The PS Classics on Vita are in many cases the best way to play those games. They get full Vita support including custom controls and analog stick mapping without having to pay any transfer fee.
 

sörine

Banned
:maybe not!
You didn't mention anything that's not already known, It was established long ago that Nintendo handles VC emulation, testing, manuals, scheduling and in some regions even ratings. The only real addendum is that this is only the case for Nintendo's own systems (NES, SNES, N64, GB, GBC, GBA). 3rd party platforms are similarly handled by their owners directly (Sega with SMS, Genesis & Game Gear, Hudson/Konami with TG16, Commodore with C64). The only exceptions being NeoGeo, which D4 licensed from SNK Playmore, and MSX, which seems to be handled by D4 and Konami directly for their own libraries and licensed from MSX Licensing Corp. Arcade games are also handled directly by 3rd parties, usually the original license holder but in some cases they've been licensed to other publishers like Hamster or D4.
 

Somnid

Member
Releasing retro games has always been 95% licensing. Nintendo has most direct control over their own properties and it's not uncommon to have other stake-holders even in games you'd think would be obvious.
 

Glass Joe

Member
Nintendo should really get more companies to support VC. I mean, we only have Capcom and Konami really supporting VC.

Square has released nothing outside of Japan, and there are many gems (Terranigma for example) that would be amazing to have.

In any case, I hope N64 and DS happen sometime. I never owned a DS so there's many games to play there!

N64 was and still is promised (it's on Nintendo's website as eventually coming). No idea what the hold up could be. There's only a couple dozen or so from the Wii days, and it seems they would have gotten at least Mario 64 running and selling months (years) ago.

As for DS games, I just need to see some footage of them to see if it's worth getting excited about. Unless their emulator allows for multiple screen size switches on the fly, I don't really think it'll work for me.

And yeah, they need to get 3rd parties on the ball in any way they can. When I look at the lack of activity on the Japanese VC Miiverses, it tends to make me think most games aren't selling really at all. I think they'd do better over here. But IIRC, a company like Square has one Wii U release (Dues Ex) and that may have given them a poor impression due to lack of fanfare.

Maybe a "classic game of the month" to be prominently featured on the eShop each month for 50% off, and if it's 3rd party Nintendo helps subsidize the price. Or allow variable pricing like any other eShop game. Or somethin'.
 

sörine

Banned
I thought so, too, but evidently not!
Really? I feel like most of it can be sourced in interviews even.

I knew that was the case with Wii VC (Nintendo still controlled scheduling, pircepoints, etc) but wasn't sure if it'd changed for the eShops? I'd guess it did since Konami has crazy PCE/MSX upgrade prices in Japan (300-400円 iirc) and Sega's Game Gear scheduling came in dumps over several weeks just like their first set of 3D Remasters.
 
Sorry, what?

Sony's worked to get their Classics working on multiple platforms, organizes and heavily promotes sales that feature these titles regularly, doesn't hold third parties to a semi-arbitrary release schedule driven by first-party concerns or burden them with system requirements for things like Miiverse, and (at least in the past) paid publishers to include some PS1 titles in PS+ -- all of which is the kind of stuff that goes to margin and therefore matters to publishers for participating in this kind of program. (And this is putting aside the huge gap in general publisher relations between Sony and Nintendo.)

If a company wants to run a platform like this successfully, they need to design it around the needs of the external publishing partners and take steps to affirmatively make it more appealing to them. Nintendo's VC strategy (like most of their strategy) has always been about their first-party needs, and that's just not going to bring a lot of third-party content to the table.
 

Dsyndrome

Member
I'm saddened by the whole situation. How am I going to get drunk and binge on retro games when I already have the meager retro games already available? Steam and PSN know what I'm talking about.
 

tebunker

Banned
If a company wants to run a platform like this successfully, they need to design it around the needs of the external publishing partners and take steps to affirmatively make it more appealing to them. Nintendo's VC strategy (like most of their strategy) has always been about their first-party needs, and that's just not going to bring a lot of third-party content to the table.

This, whenever someone makes a thread about how Nintendo should do X or Y or Z to get back with 3rd parties, this should be posted and the thread locked.

I mean it clearly hits the most ardent point, and something I have felt for a while. 3rd parties are just flat out treated better by other platform holders. That isn't going to change any time soon.

It's disappointing because I think Nintendo doesn't see the forest for the trees at times and hews to closely to this ethos, and ultimately I think it is hurting more than helping them. Even just a small budging on some policies and they could still maintain a lot of their methodology but still please fans and make gobs more money.

I just don't see how being do dogmatic about it has truly truly helped them.
 

Moofers

Member
I want Mario 64 very badly but I'm not buying it until it hits Wii U VC. I have 3 pro controllers and I am not buying a damn wiimote and GameCube pad on top of all those to play it. Plus I wanna play it off-screen on the GamePad.

When you gonna make this happen, Nintendo?
 

Glass Joe

Member
Sony's worked to get their Classics working on multiple platforms, organizes and heavily promotes sales that feature these titles regularly, doesn't hold third parties to a semi-arbitrary release schedule driven by first-party concerns or burden them with system requirements for things like Miiverse, and (at least in the past) paid publishers to include some PS1 titles in PS+ -- all of which is the kind of stuff that goes to margin and therefore matters to publishers for participating in this kind of program. (And this is putting aside the huge gap in general publisher relations between Sony and Nintendo.)

If a company wants to run a platform like this successfully, they need to design it around the needs of the external publishing partners and take steps to affirmatively make it more appealing to them. Nintendo's VC strategy (like most of their strategy) has always been about their first-party needs, and that's just not going to bring a lot of third-party content to the table.

I doubt Miiverse is much of a concern, that has to be included in every Wii U title and even the Ninties seem to get that to work no problem. Probably built into the base emulator. But I agree that Nintendo's only caring about first-party needs both here and with their philosophy in general. "You're invited but I don't care if you come," in other words. Too bad the indie scene doesn't seem to control VC as they have apparently been much more passionate about getting content from others on the console.

Super Mario 64 is available on Wii VC (not Wii U VC), but can be played on a Wii U using the Wii U's "Wii Mode" feature?

Yes. The Wii's Classic controller is required though, the gamepad won't be recognized. It will even stream to the gamepad IIRC but the buttons won't work.
 

jwhit28

Member
I'm saddened by the whole situation. How am I going to get drunk and binge on retro games when I already have the meager retro games already available? Steam and PSN know what I'm talking about.

Does PSN? I was under the impression that PS4 forced you to restart your retro collection as well. It doesn't even have something similar to Wii mode. It makes these digital retro collections a lot less desirable.
 

sörine

Banned
Neither Virtual Console or PS Classics are high priority sadly. Both have their good points but the biggest issue with both is a pervasive lack of effort and real interest from Nintendo and Sony respectively. There's no winner here, everyone loses. Including us.
 

DJKhaled

Member
seriously though, when you have nintendo 64 games running well on the Wii, and can run them on the vWii, how in the hell has it taken this long to get them on the Wii U? sometimes I just don't understand Nintendo at all, I mean they randomly announce that NDS games were coming and then released Brain Training for free and now even that game isn't available and no news about NDS games since.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
or burden them with system requirements for things like Miiverse

Not to question your general point, but: Miiverse implementation is a piece of cake and requires very little effort on behalf of the licensor; if a game doesn't support Miiverse it's usually because it came out before Miiverse was a thing (on in the case of an indie game, because the dev forgot to fill out the form).

Square-Enix is dumb about Miiverse but they're dumb about everything.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
So even the Wii U classic controller won't work for Wii Mode Wii VC? If so, that seems crazy convoluted.
The backward compatibility mode basically uses a system menu and firmware similar to the original Wii. The original Wii would basically have to be updated to support Wii U controllers, and Nintendo probably thinks that would be a waste of resources.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
The burdensome thing I've heard from people working on third party Nintendo titles has been the digital manual compilation and submission process. Not sure if the rules for VC submissions are comparable, but that's definitely a hurdle that could be made easier.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
The burdensome thing I've heard from people working on third party Nintendo titles has been the digital manual compilation and submission process. Not sure if the rules for VC submissions are comparable, but that's definitely a hurdle that could be made easier.

Short answer: the VC submission process is a lot different and not really meant for indies at all.
 
The burdensome thing I've heard from people working on third party Nintendo titles has been the digital manual compilation and submission process. Not sure if the rules for VC submissions are comparable, but that's definitely a hurdle that could be made easier.

GBA games just have scans of the original manual. That seems like the best thing to do going forward to me.
 
The backward compatibility mode basically uses a system menu and firmware similar to the original Wii. The original Wii would basically have to be updated to support Wii U controllers, and Nintendo probably thinks that would be a waste of resources.

I'm sure there are valid, money-saving reasons for this. For the average consumer who knows knows of the ability to play old Nintendo games on current hardware who goes on to look up "Super Mario 64" only to find that it's not available on Wii U and abandons the endeavor, they'll probably never know that the software is only available on Wii, and can be accessed using the Wii U's "Wii Menu."

Anyone can follow that once it's laid out for them, but to find it out requires digging beyond the confines of the system, or trial and error, despite the means to inform users of this feature being possible solely through the Wii Shop. A section of the Wii U Wii Shop devoted to Virtual Console games could exist (if it doesn't already) and display a message which says "Some VC titles are only available on the Wii, but can still be purchased and played through the Wii U using the Wii Menu feature."

Just a bit baffling to me considering Nintendo would stand to benefit more from having digital versions of all their classic game titles than any other game company.
 
I can totally imagine releasing games on the VC to be fairly pricy for the companies involved. Consider all the costs it entails:

- Clear licensing/legal rights.
- Run the ROM in the emulator and have programmers make the necessary adjustments.
- Pay a QA team to make sure the game runs correctly from start to finish.
- Pay a QA team to play the entire game from start to finish while hooked up to an epilepsy pattern analyzer and have programmers hack and alter any failing scenes, and re-test.
- Produce a digital manual that adheres to Nintendo's strict formatting and guidelines.
- Certification process.
- Be prepared to offer post-launch support if need be.

And I can imagine why most companies won't bother. It's not a quick and dirty job. Many games on the VC have been carefully edited to fix mistakes (title screen in Lifeforce that displayed "Nintend of America" for example) or mostly to remove bright flashing patterns, right down to the explosions in the ending escape of Contra 3 that have been considerably dimmed, or magic spells in Mario RPG that have been dimmed or altered. Nintendo seem extremely paranoid about epilepsy risks.
 
Does PSN? I was under the impression that PS4 forced you to restart your retro collection as well.

You can't "restart" it since it just doesn't support Classics, period. PS1 Classics are extremely likely to appear eventually (and will definitely support already-purchased titles when they do), at least, though PS2 is a lot more questionable.
 

terrisus

Member
I'm sure there are valid, money-saving reasons for this. For the average consumer who knows knows of the ability to play old Nintendo games on current hardware who goes on to look up "Super Mario 64" only to find that it's not available on Wii U and abandons the endeavor, they'll probably never know that the software is only available on Wii, and can be accessed using the Wii U's "Wii Menu."

Anyone can follow that once it's laid out for them, but to find it out requires digging beyond the confines of the system, or trial and error, despite the means to inform users of this feature being possible solely through the Wii Shop. A section of the Wii U Wii Shop devoted to Virtual Console games could exist (if it doesn't already) and display a message which says "Some VC titles are only available on the Wii, but can still be purchased and played through the Wii U using the Wii Menu feature."

Not a bad idea.

Even better, searching for Mario 64 on the Wii U eShop could even say "Title is not available for Wii U, but is available for Wii. Would you like to continue to Wii eShop to purchase this game for Wii?"
Then, if you clicked Yes, it would launch Wii mode and the Wii eShop listing for Mario 64.
 

SCReuter

Member
I want to transfer my Wii Virtual Console library to Wii U's Wii Mode. Is there any downside to doing this?

Another question: Let's say I purchase Blaster Master (NES) in Wii Mode. Will doing a system transfer afterwards (Wii -> Wii U's Wii Mode) permanently remove that purchase?

Edit: Sorry for all the questions. I haven't been keeping up.
 
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