Nintendo needs to slowly build up the nonNintendo hardcore fanbase on its next console in order to get third party support. If the player base won't buy the third party games then why bother putting them on Nintendo is where EA and ubisoft's mindset is at. Use the WiiU2 as a hardcore video game console for building even more support with the indie, making/brining games that are outside of the norm for consoles like strategy to it, make games that touch on the style of assassin's creed,tlou,halo,cod, and all the other mainstream title in order to get the Nintendo hardcore interested in those types of games even if they aren't from Nintendo, and snatch up as many niche types of games in order to bring as many otaku types to buy their console. Nintendo doesn't need to make games that are filled with blood,cussing, killing , and nudity they just need to attract the mainstream consumer the types that go see transformers,harry potter, pirates of the caribbean, disney/pixar, and whatever summer blockbuster that comes out. Granted i also think they need to make all the textures, models, and whatever pre game building materials now for next gen Nintendo's Mario world. Create one amazing mario world game then use the material from that to build all there sports, mini games, and other mario type games like they did with captain toadstool to sell at a reduced price of course in order to fill up their desert months.
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Miyamoto: Nintendo working on next console
- Thread starter richiek
- Start date
Don_Tombery
Member
Sorry if this point did already come up, I haven't read the whole thread.
Usually following their history, the next handheld should be the next big Nintendo release. But isn't it possible that the n3DS being a more than just a 'slim'-version is Nintendos way to extend the lifespan of the 3DS,making it possible to bring their next home console earlier and postpone the next handheld for one or two years.
In terms of 'power' I also believe that they have to surpass PS4 and XB1, and switch to an similar architecture. Easy ports in similar quality, fast and without huge optimization and extra development is in my opinion their only chance to get at least some of the 3rd parties back on board. If then some of them even use the plus in computational power for some improvements and is successful with it, the rest will come back too.
And with some reserves left (and a reasonable hardware base) they even might get some downgraded ports in the 2-3 last years when PS5 and XboxWhatever arrived.
Also they need more unique stuff like Splatoon, and I still can't see why they don't use some of their existing IPs. Take for example F-Zero, Waverace, and 1080 and you already have three games that would exist without any challenger on any other system since these genres are neglected for years. There is a whole generation of players that don't know these kind of games. Even if they would just make a technical upgrade of the last versions, add some new tracks (trackeditor) and online mode, these would be some great games that might attract some of the players thinking Mario/Zelda et al. are too 'childish'
But then there are also their lacks in their online and account system that they need to sort out.
There is much to be done, Nintendo
Usually following their history, the next handheld should be the next big Nintendo release. But isn't it possible that the n3DS being a more than just a 'slim'-version is Nintendos way to extend the lifespan of the 3DS,making it possible to bring their next home console earlier and postpone the next handheld for one or two years.
In terms of 'power' I also believe that they have to surpass PS4 and XB1, and switch to an similar architecture. Easy ports in similar quality, fast and without huge optimization and extra development is in my opinion their only chance to get at least some of the 3rd parties back on board. If then some of them even use the plus in computational power for some improvements and is successful with it, the rest will come back too.
And with some reserves left (and a reasonable hardware base) they even might get some downgraded ports in the 2-3 last years when PS5 and XboxWhatever arrived.
Also they need more unique stuff like Splatoon, and I still can't see why they don't use some of their existing IPs. Take for example F-Zero, Waverace, and 1080 and you already have three games that would exist without any challenger on any other system since these genres are neglected for years. There is a whole generation of players that don't know these kind of games. Even if they would just make a technical upgrade of the last versions, add some new tracks (trackeditor) and online mode, these would be some great games that might attract some of the players thinking Mario/Zelda et al. are too 'childish'
But then there are also their lacks in their online and account system that they need to sort out.
There is much to be done, Nintendo
They've never really tried since the N64 era. The marketing of that console was perfect for the Western audience, from "mature" software to ads themselves. Goldeneye was the game of the generation for older crowd interested in shooters, only for Nintendo to completely ignore them with the Gamecube and Xbox to swoop in and take them with Halo. Nintendo went as far as to advertise Conker's Bad Fur Day in Playboy. Crazy to think about today.
People forget how well the N64 fared against the Playstation in North America. It sold as many consoles as the SNES. As of March 31, 2001, N64 had sold about 20 million units in North America. At that point, Nintendo stopped supporting the console and started focusing on the Gamecube. Playstation was sitting at 31 million at the time. Keep in mind PS1 was released before N64, and had literally all of the third party support in the world. This resulted in software droughts that the PS1 simply didn't experience. While Nintendo's first party output was strong (Mario, Zelda, Mario Kart, Goldeneye) it couldn't compete with Sony's first party support (Gran Turismo, Crash Bandicoot) AND third party support (Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil... the list goes on and on and on).
The idea that the PS1 dominated the N64 comes from worldwide sales (it KILLED N64 in Europe and Japan), and it continued to sell WELL into the life of the PS2, while the N64 died completely when the Gamecube released.
What's my point? The N64 sold well in North America on the strength of two things:
1. Compelling software
2. Strong marketing that appealed to ALL demographics
Their biggest problem? Cartridges. Yamauchi said fuck you to the third parties, so they said fuck you back and left Nintendo for Playstation and CDs. Could you imagine if Nintendo went with CDs and had Final Fantasy, Metal Gear and third party support they enjoyed from the SNES on the N64?
With the Gamecube, they hit 1 to an extent (lack of shooters hurt them, the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark audience moved away from Nintendo) and failed miserably with 2. Gamecube was the kiddy purple lunchbox with Mario's water gun and Celda. The Resident Evil games were too little too late; the damage was done. They had decent third party support for the first few years, but when you are lacking in 1 and 2, it's not enough. Doesn't help that PS2's third party support still completely shit on the Gamecube's. There was no Final Fantasy X, MGS2, Devil May Cry or Grand Theft Auto on the GC.
Wii was an anomaly. They hit 1 (Wii Sports/motion controls) and 2 (Wii Would Like To Play) so hard in such a different way that it hit the market like nothing anyone could have ever expected. They didn't need third party support for the Wii.
Now we reach Wii U, and we are once again at a Gamecube situation. I'd say they have even less compelling software and worse marketing than even the Gamecube, and the sales numbers show that. Obviously they tried to pull a Wii with 1 (the gamepad/Nintendoland?), but they didn't even try with the marketing. The first ads for the Wii U were those fucking dubstep ads. Compare that to the Wii Would Like to Play ads for the Wii, that sold everyone on the thing in 30 seconds. Terrible fucking job with the Wii U.
Why did I write this long post? What's my point? I very often see people argue that "Third parties coming to Nintendo wouldn't help anything, because the audience for Nintendo consoles aren't interested in those types of games." Well I point to the N64 and say "You're wrong. They just aren't trying hard enough, or at all." Here is the perfect Nintendo console:
1. The compelling first party software of the N64. They all had the signature Nintendo charm and quality, but also revolutionary titles like Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time that put the entire gaming world on notice. Unique titles that had them step out of their comfort zone, like Goldeneye, Perfect Dark and Pokemon Snap. New IPs that spawned their own successful franchises for years to come, like Mario Party and Super Smash Bros. All not only some of the best playing games in the world, but also some of the best looking.
2. Strong marketing that appealed to all demographics, like the N64. N64 wasn't marketed and presented as a kiddy console. As a result, it wasn't known as a kiddy console. A game that involved shooting people in the face was the third best selling game on the console, even beating out the revolutionary Ocarina of Time. It was not marketed exclusively to young kids and families, but instead a teenage and older audience. There were ads for the N64 during wrestling and in Playboy magazine. This gave the console an aura of "coolness" which sold younger audiences on it even though it wasn't being marketed DIRECTLY to them. None of this cringeworthy shit.
3. A console built for third party developers, like the PS4. This point is the one Nintendo never hit, and explicitly stopped trying to hit starting with the N64. With the PS4, Sony went to the third parties, asked them what they wanted from their new console. After gaining this information, they built the PS4, which is essentially the dream console for third parties. This is evidenced by the unanimous third party support for the thing. Nintendo obviously does not share this philosophy, instead building the console themselves, completely internally, and then presenting it to third parties. "So, what do you think? You'll make games for it, right?" That's not how it works today. Nintendo needs to look at the PS4, the current market leader, and do that. Many say a Nintendo console that just does what the competition does is boring, or wouldn't sell well in the marketplace. It needs to be "unique". PS4 isn't doing anything unique or fancy. These are basic, fundamental traits that all video game consoles should have. Then you innovate ON TOP of that foundation.
The big AAA-releases are probably lost forever, but the Wii actually got a huge number of great and very different thirdparty games - which would be better than what they are getting right now.
These are the only two ways to get non-Nintendo fans to buy a Nintendo home console. If games can look better on the Nintendo Next than on the PS4, there's a chance that hardcore gamers pick one up and that third party publishers pay attention. At this point, if the userbase on the Nintendo Next isn't interested in multiplatform games, no amount of moneyhatting is going to make any difference.
You can see the seeds of this in that interview you posted. Nintendo executives decided on a two screen system without any examination of whether this would interest their customers or their business partners.
Indie support is great, but it's not a strong enough foundation to build a base on. If Nintendo were to do this, they would only be further monetizing existing Nintendo fans and not building up new market segments or recovering their lapsed fans.
Excellent post.
Hardcore gamers are already on the Nintendo-plattforms, what they need are the dudebros that buy GTA and Cod - and they wouldnt touch Nintendo no matter how much stronger their console would be thanks to the stigma. Remember how the NGC fared against the substantially weaker PS2? I think if Nintendo wants this demographic, they have to completely change their identity, and stop being what makes them Nintendo. That is doable, but neither smart or good for Nintendo-fans imo.
Great post, totally agree.
The majority of people buying consoles aren't hardcore.
Nailed it, but sadly the key to the golden Nintendo era in America from the NES to the N64 was the teamwork by Howard Lincoln and Minoru Arakawa. It's no coincidence that since they retired, the company lost all the understanding it had of the western hardcore market.
The majority are millenials who played Nintendo systems as small kids, and with that comes the sigma of it being kiddy.
Most won't want to have anythign to do with what they loved as small kids, and want to be seen as mature and cool, neither of which Nintendo as a brand will ever be.
A Nintendo system aimed at the PS/XBox audience with the specs and marketing to match, would still be scoffed at, because Nintendo still primarily release the types of games they always have.
For it to succeed they would have to push those franchise to the background and start making cinematic experiences and western styled games, treating Mario and Co like Sony does with its kid orientated games like LBP/Tearaway etc.
The Playstation brand is 20 years old so I wouldn't say people playing Nintendo consoles when they are kids is the problem. If Nintendo wanted to target that audience they would need to release sw targeted towards them, but that doesn't really mean they need to push their current stuff to the background.
That transition period also coincides with exponentially increasing software budgets, rise of western AAA development, decline of Japanese AAA development and change in consumer taste due to the fact that no hardware power limitations opened up for new types of games.
What we are seeing today is the end result of the process that began around the time MS entered the market.
But it has been a problem somewhat before that as well, after NES came SNES, and Sega already started the kiddy not cool stigma Nintendo is plagued by now as well, it just wasn't as big as then. Basically, as soon as they got direct competition in the market.
Yep just look at Sony and MS 1st party lineups for PS4 and XBO.
In order to establish an ecosystem where 3rd party AAA games sell well on a Nintendo system, they'd have to put out an equivalent 1st party library. If they were to do that Nintendo could kiss my money goodbye because I feel those types of games are shit. And I buy like every title they publish across 3DS, Wii U and eShop, plus a good portion of all the available amiibos.
I don't want a western AAA centric system from them that occasionally gets Legend of Skyrim or open world 3D Mario. I want 3D World and Skyward Sword. Yoshi Yarn and Kirby Rainbow Curse. That's the type of game I'd buy.
In other words they'd alienate their current userbase.
Nintendo doesn't know what they are doing.
IsntChrisL
Member
I agree that Nintendo tried harder to hit wider demos with the N64. They tried a bit early into the GC's life but started taking a different road by the end that would lead towards their vision for the Wii.
I think the success of the Wii really hurt Nintendo's prospects because it fucked up their thought process in a major way. They weren't turning casuals into seasoned gamers like they planned. Yet they kept chasing that audience. And now they're in a position that has them relying on the same IP. But save for Splatoon and W101, they haven't tried too many new faces on the Wii U. And as good as those are, they don't really come off as attempts to appeal to wider audiences.
The thing that really throws me is that they seemed to assume that the PS3/360 gen would go on forever. They pretty much got on stage and said that they've got a box that can run the same ports, therefore there's nothing to worry about. Never mind that that console cycle had gone on for too long already.
As crazy as Yamauchi was, he seemed to run the company successfully. And Nintendo wasn't such a Japanese-focused company. NOA seems to have very little input and I can't remember the last time Nintendo tried to secure a western exclusive that wasn't primarily aimed at children. The N64 days are looked at as a low point for Nintendo but if you compare the amount of support coming from within the company and outside of it to the Wii U, the N64 was incredible.
I think the success of the Wii really hurt Nintendo's prospects because it fucked up their thought process in a major way. They weren't turning casuals into seasoned gamers like they planned. Yet they kept chasing that audience. And now they're in a position that has them relying on the same IP. But save for Splatoon and W101, they haven't tried too many new faces on the Wii U. And as good as those are, they don't really come off as attempts to appeal to wider audiences.
The thing that really throws me is that they seemed to assume that the PS3/360 gen would go on forever. They pretty much got on stage and said that they've got a box that can run the same ports, therefore there's nothing to worry about. Never mind that that console cycle had gone on for too long already.
As crazy as Yamauchi was, he seemed to run the company successfully. And Nintendo wasn't such a Japanese-focused company. NOA seems to have very little input and I can't remember the last time Nintendo tried to secure a western exclusive that wasn't primarily aimed at children. The N64 days are looked at as a low point for Nintendo but if you compare the amount of support coming from within the company and outside of it to the Wii U, the N64 was incredible.
ResidentDante
Member
Yeah, and Minecraft using the Wii U pad and touch functionality could be really amazing. Imagine selecting items etc. with that.
They can convince people otherwise if they make an effort to do so during the development of their next device.
If any company has the size, and talent to succeed with both markets at the same time that would be Nintendo, in my opinion.
It's not that they have to commission dudebro games to EAD or Hal Lab, they can buy some Western studio like they did in the past with Rare or Retro to work on shooters or car sims or a football game or a WRPG while Japan keeps doing their own stuff. It's not that hard.
IsntChrisL
Member
Nintendo can successfully do both. There was a time that they were publishing games like Goldeneye, Mario Kart, Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazooie, and Conker on the same platform.
No they cannot, unless you want them to stop being Nintendo and be like MS and Sony.
As Ansatz said, they would have to have an equivelant first party library to MS and Sony to stand a chance.
A Nintendo console with monstrous specs, marketing muscle and 3rd party incentives like MS or Sony do,
but with the usual focus on Mario Zelda Kirby etc. would do nothing to change their image.
As people have said above, they can do both.
Some people truly believe a myth that it is impossible for Nintendo to both provide their brand of games and genre leading mature titles aiming at the young male demo at the same time.
They truly believe it.
PhilipDoesMatter
Member
They always do.
GoldenEye -> Perfect Dark -> TimeSplitters -> Death
This lineage of FPS doesn't work in todays market that focuses on realism. Over the top presentation, crazy character selections (Elvin the alien, Zombie nurse, Rocket scientist, Aztec monkey), goofy animations, stylized voice acting. Have you forgotten all this?
Conker is an over the top game for nerds like me.
Great Mighty Poo, most hilarious thing ever
This type of game is niche on the same level as Wonderful 101. It's the closest title I can think of in modern AAA gaming that matches the style of Rare games in terms of presentation.
Metroid Prime getting critical and popular acclaim in a post-Halo world proves they can appeal to western teenagers if they really try it.
Wtf! This is the first time I've seen Conker footage. Can't believe Nintendo actually published a game like that.
Cheeseman Battitude
Member
Nintendo is standing at a fork in the road. They either need to be similar to Sony and MS on a technical level and also have their unique Nintendo "gimmick" for want of a better word. Or if they don't do that, they need the new "platform" to appeal to customer and developer alike.
LOL. I really need to play this game/
to be honest, it looks pretty bad from a gameplay perspective. Lots of cutscenes. And the gameplay is only jumping from one pillar to the other in slow mo and shooting. This footage looks like Uncharted on N64.
They really can't, you cant compare the market of then with now, the market is wholly western orientated nowadays. And the N64 wasn't exactly a roaring success itself. it still got soundly trashed by PS1 regardless of those few shooters they got.
HellofaMouse
Member
itll be called "the new wii u"
Amen to this.
IsntChrisL
Member
What's there to forget? You're saying that because it's no longer the 90's Nintendo couldn't dream of bringing out their own modern take on different genres from western studios? Complete nonsense.
Nintendo does not need to keep making Goldeneye/PD/Conker. They can evolve with everyone else. In fact, they have. The only difference is that they decided to cut that part of themselves off for no goddamn reason.
Isn't it rather poor to mention that now? There's no way they can get it, as it's now Microsoft's first party IP. I think bringing it up as a present criticism is rather lukewarm to do.
You can only assess them where they are at present, and that is a situation where their console (Wii U) is failing everywhere, and their handheld (3DS) is only doing well in Japan. As such, I sincerely have no idea on what they can do: most of the major AAA brands are more than likely defined with audiences on other platforms save for Sonic and Rayman (which are even arguable as AAA experiences), and they're faced with the insoluble situation where everything just keeps costing more and more, so even relying on their tried and true games will largely prove to be fruitless. Consider for a moment how beefy the 3DS lineup is and realize that for nearly every year the device has been on the market, it has failed nearly every sales projection the company made for it outside of Japan. Their quality alone is not saving them, despite it being leagues above nearly every major developer in the industry. They've put themselves in quite a pickle here. Even if they get the third parties, they've now had two console generations where many of those brands are defined as a major PC, Sony, or Microsoft franchise. Having those titles on a Nintendo machine would simply be checking a box and not much else, as the Wii U launch ports showcased. The audience for most of these western-made titles is simply better fit on other ecosystems, and I don't even think Nintendo imitating the competition would address this well at all. They also can't rely on Japan, which has already caved directly to smartphones, and most major developers struggle making games due to the crazy costs involved. The parody of it all is that Satoru Iwata spoke to developers outside of Japan about the race to the bottom, yet it's Japan that has ran the fastest in that race. Offering Wii U as a sort of "middle ground" for costs isn't going to work either as Japan is aiming lower than that by and large, and everybody else is aiming above that.
Their tried and true model all but assures Nintendo and Nintendo-related franchises will be the only successes on their hardware, and that's a very bad thing because you can count such related franchises on one hand, as I already named two. Sonic and Rayman are really the only major third party franchises that come to mind that have significantly sold more on Nintendo hardware than Microsoft's and Sony's when it came to having games on all three. That might be enough for a Nintendo fan, but that's not good enough for Nintendo, because these games are starting to cost so much that relying on their core userbase is simply not enough, even for a company that probably doesn't throw money at projects in reckless abandon like third parties do.
I really have a hard time seeing Nintendo really doing anything about this in any space they move towards. There are major bugbears on both the console and handheld front for the company.
MisterGrey3000
Member
Lets assume that your two points about the N64's "success" in America are somewhat rooted in reality. Lets forget the fact that the kid-centric NES had a bigger north American userbase than the N64, lets also forget that the kid-centric Wii-like GB/GBC was a bigger success in the north american market than the N64, and lets also forget the fact that the N64's NA stagnation isn't a good thing.
With all that knowledge in mind all I can say is... what's your point?
This is not the 90s or early 2000s anymore, gaming is a much bigger medium and it's consumers have completely different taste and preferences.
It's been shown time and time again that the "Blue Ocean" audience (kids, families, and casual gamers) doesn't want to play games like Mass Effect or Batman. They're never gonna touch expensive complicated hardware with a software ecosystem geared towards those kinds of games. Marketing and branding like this is not appealing to them. It doesn't matter how many platformers or Kart Racers publishers send out to die in those environments, those people don't want to be a part of the young male-centric Sony/MS/Activision/EA/etc. ecosystem.
The same thing goes for the majority of young men and the few other people who share their taste.
I know some of you love to think this isn't true, but most guys who play PS4s and Xbones don't give a rats ass about stuff like Mario platformers, Mario Kart, Splatoon, Kirby, Donkey Kong, or even the Zelda games (As evidenced by the complete failure of almost every high-profile Nintendo-like game on the PS3 and 360)
These are not experiences that fit within their selected software ecosystem and they are not the kinds of games that they want to buy.
We now have technology and entertainment that is incredibly suited towards the idea of catering to specific niches. Why in the world should I buy a "jack of all trades master of none" entertainment machine when a competing machine/device is like 10x better at supporting the needs of my market because it's completely dedicated to it?
It really, really doesn't matter if they build a PS6-caliber console that appeases the "EAs" and "Rock Stars" of the world.
If their software ecosystem, marketing, and branding is still youth/family/casual-centric AAA young male-aimed 3rd party games will fail because the audience won't want those games and the 3rd party's audience won't be there.
That means 3rd parties will quickly realize what's going on and distant themselves from the console as soon as possible.
In order for Nintendo to do what you want them to do in this day and age they'll need to pull a bizzaro Kinect (change their marketing, branding, and software development) while also pulling a 360/PS4, and that's way WAY more trouble than it's actually worth when it's completely possible for them to pull off a 3DS or even a less successful Wii by gearing their console towards the youth/family/casual audience and adopting modern trends from PC/Phone/Tablet gaming that appeals to them.
With this approach they could also improve their 3rd party relations by reaching out to developers (indies, mobile devs, Ubisoft, Activision, Disney, SEGA, etc.) who are clearly interested in making money off youth/family/casual/Nintendo-like games just like they are.
They shouldn't even think about or prioritize Western 3rd parties at all. With their new unified systems game draughts won't be much of an issue anyway and increasingly the reason Nintendo will survive is because they do stuff that's not on Steam, while the other consoles are more and more PC game libraries hooked to a TV.
We'll have to see how unified it is. Many of us might assume such unification means the same games on either system, but I have a feeling Nintendo will still try to make handhelds and consoles both separate platforms for consumers to get beyond personal preference in how one wants to play games.
I hope by unification they just make it easier to make games. Getting rid of Nintendo Console Drought should be their first priority.
IsntChrisL
Member
I hate this attitude so much. It's likely hypocritical as well because most people that think this way tend to exclude Retro, Next Level Games, and Monster Games. You know, the few western studios still developing quality games on Nintendo hardware. There's zero fucking reason Nintendo shouldn't have both.
Karl af Duktig
Member
In other news: Activision might release a Call of Duty this year.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Depending on when this is announced may make me skip the Wii U and this Zelda altogether.
KojiKnight
Member
Even Nintendo is probably thinking it's time to retire the DS and Wii names. Let's be honest, Nintendo was only sticking to those names because they thought they could make them brands after the first run successes.
They need a catchy new name, something that doesn't evoke childish vibes but doesn't have to be mature sounding.
Honestly I think they should go minimalist. During the NES/SNES days it was always "can I go over to Bobby's house and play Nintendo?" They need to go back to something that can leverage their name as the brand it should be. I don't think a return to "Entertainment System" is a great idea... but why not something like "Experience". The advertising pretty much does it self there.
Nintendo fans are a subset of hardcore gamers, but they do not represent the group in general.
No, but Nintendo needs to focus on the first year sales of their launch, and almost all the buyers at that point are going to be hardcore gamers.
These truly show how poor Nintendo's position is right now.
The PS4 is this jack of all trades machine.