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[OraleeWey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIOaGuTox14


He makes so really great points. I hope this raises consumer awareness. Post launch DLC and Micro-transactions have hurt the enjoyment of games.

 

[OraleeWey]

I guess it's not inconvenient enough?

 

[Kama_1082]

Post DLC and micro transactions do not hurt my enjoyment of games because I do not have to buy them, nor does the game force me to do so unlike F2P mobile games.

 

[Akronis]

Post DLC and micro transactions do not hurt my enjoyment of games because I do not have to buy them, nor does the game force me to do so unlike F2P mobile games.

It can be harmful when the game is intentionally designed around microtransactions though.

 

[RockTurtle]

Post DLC and micro transactions do not hurt my enjoyment of games because I do not have to buy them, nor does the game force me to do so unlike F2P mobile games.

but why wait until f2p antics arrive to consoles? (which, arguably, they already are starting to appear)

 

[Finale Fireworker]

It can be harmful when the game is intentionally designed around microtransactions though.

I think most of us discount those games as garbage and they don't even affect us at all. The only really big high profile game built around microtransactions "we" bought was AC: Unity. And we all know how beloved that game is.

 

[Shuggananas]

I think most of us discount those games as garbage and they don't even affect us at all. The only really big high profile game built around microtransactions "we" bought was AC: Unity. And we all know how beloved that game is.

what about league of legends then. it's a p2ng like most facebook garbage games

 

[Finale Fireworker]

what about league of legends then. it's a p2ng like most facebook garbage games

You've got me there, I was only thinking of consoles.

 

[pizzacat]

I think most of us discount those games as garbage and they don't even affect us at all. The only really big high profile game built around microtransactions "we" bought was AC: Unity. And we all know how beloved that game is.

we also know how ubi backtracked on almost everything implemented there.



DLC is known as some evil entity at this point, no need to demonize it some more. There are good dlc out there, nintendo is leading with it with the mario kart dlc and $5 per smash character seems decent for me. I mean tbh no one is really talking about MKX's stuff when they basically copy and pasted Evolves devs plans

 

[Kama_1082]

It can be harmful when the game is intentionally designed around microtransactions though.

i have yet to encounter a retail game that stops me from progressing due to a micro transaction that in needed to buy.

 

[C.Olimar788]

I think most of us discount those games as garbage and they don't even affect us at all. The only really big high profile game built around microtransactions "we" bought was AC: Unity. And we all know how beloved that game is.

Mortal Kombat X gets a free pass?

Microtransaction schemes in full-price games are inexcusable and consumers desperately need to stop supporting those sorts of games.

i have yet to encounter a retail game that stops me from progressing due to a micro transaction that in needed to buy.

What about incentivized grinding? The moment a developer has a choice between "make more money" and "let people earn something through gameplay", the latter option will be pushed to the upper limits of what they can get away with, because why wouldn't it be? They want you to give up on their grinding and pay them.

 

[Roshin]

He makes so really great points. I hope this raises consumer awareness. Post launch DLC and Micro-transactions have hurt the enjoyment of games.

For some people. Considering how popular these things are, a lot of people don't seem to mind.

 

[danowat]

Not at all ironic to be making money off of talking about DLC and MT's though is it?

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Post DLC and micro transactions do not hurt my enjoyment of games because I do not have to buy them, nor does the game force me to do so unlike F2P mobile games.

I haven't watched the video yet, but Jim Sterling has a Jimquisition that does a good job explaining the fault in this logic. You cannot and should not trust a company to not make game design decisions influenced by the fact the are selling microtransactions/DLC.

Their goal is to make money. NetherRealms is making money by people paying $20 to unlock everything in the Krypt in the newest Mortal Kombat. Now, you can unlock all of that without giving them a penny if you put in enough hours. But, it is naive to believe that at no point did the fact they are selling a $20 unlock influence the decisions made as far as how many unlockables there are, the in-game cost of those unlockables, and the rate at which you gain that in-game currency. So, while you haven't engaged in any microtransactions, your gaming experience has been effected by their existence.

Anyone who doesn't believe that has bought into the bullshit lies that these companies are selling.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Whats his alternative strategy for funding the insane cost of developing next gen games?

Oh, he doesn't have one, what a surprise.

 

[Hektor]

Post DLC and micro transactions do not hurt my enjoyment of games because I do not have to buy them, nor does the game force me to do so unlike F2P mobile games.

To think that microtransactions dont have an impact on the grind of unlock-mechanics is pretty naive.

 

[Kama_1082]

Mortal Kombat X gets a free pass?

Microtransaction schemes in full-price games are inexcusable and consumers desperately need to stop supporting those sorts of games.


What about incentivized grinding? The moment a developer has a choice between "make more money" and "let people earn something through gameplay", the latter option will be pushed to the upper limits of what they can get away with, because why wouldn't it be? They want you to give up on their grinding and pay them.

But I'm not forced to do that. If I want take the easy way out to grind, I'll pay. But I don't have to, nor am I forced. If people are willing to say their money is worth less than their time, good for them. But in no way does it diminish my enjoyment of said game.

 

[Corpekata]

I think most of us discount those games as garbage and they don't even affect us at all. The only really big high profile game built around microtransactions "we" bought was AC: Unity. And we all know how beloved that game is.

AC Unity had microtransactions but it is hardly built around it. If anything that game, like most Ubi games, gives you so much normal game currency to make purchasing anything in game silly.

 

[Jebusman]

Whats his alternative strategy for funding the insane cost of developing next gen games?

Oh, he doesn't have one, what a surprise.

So the problem is that we need more DLC, not that maybe, triple A development costs have gotten out of hand.

Video games don't need to cost millions of dollars to make.

 

[Spuck-uk]

So the problem is that we need more DLC, not that maybe, triple A development costs have gotten out of hand.

Video games don't need to cost millions of dollars to make.

People will only whine that the games don't look next gen enough, or don't have enough content.

It's lose/lose for developers.

 

[Pop]

If I can earn everything in game that's being sold as microtransactions, then it doesn't bother me one bit. Not including different skins and whatnot, those I don't care about.

If others want to take the easy way and buy items that can be unlocked by playing countless hours then good for them. Their choice. Doesn't stop my enjoyment of playing said game.

 

[Kama_1082]

To think that microtransactions dont have an impact on the grind of unlock-mechanics is pretty naive.

I don't think so, at least the way I play my games. I grind what is necessary to get past a certain level or boss. I rarely 100% any games because I feel it's too long. And that's what these companies are banking on me pulling out my wallet to do so. With that being said, knowing all of this, I still do not buy MTs and it doesn't affect me in my enjoyment of the game, the way I play my games. I know that's not the popular thought around here, but that's how I feel on the subject.

 

[ShinMaruku]

But I'm not forced to do that. If I want take the easy way out to grind, I'll pay. But I don't have to, nor am I forced. If people are willing to say their money is worth less than their time, good for them. But in no way does it diminish my enjoyment of said game.

You do know that for you to grind those things they make it take much more time to get. Or even better it allows them to make people for what were cheat codes. If there is a monetary gain it will influence game design. What normally would take you maybe a hour or two will now take 5 to tens of hours.

Whats his alternative strategy for funding the insane cost of developing next gen games?

Oh, he doesn't have one, what a surprise.

There are many alternatives, the first one is budget properly and stop spending so much on marketing. It's such a small percentage of a game like this sales it has a legacy that will sell itself.
Explain how quantic dream and the gran turismo guys made games significantly cheaper than some of these tent-pole releases?

You your self say the budgets are insane. Make them less sane.

 

[test_account]

To think that microtransactions dont have an impact on the grind of unlock-mechanics is pretty naive.

You do know that for you to grind those things they make it take much more time to get. Or even better it allows them to make people for what were cheat codes. If there is a monetary gain it will influence game design. What normally would take you maybe a hour or two will now take 5 to tens of hours.

If you mean full price retail games, are there any examples of this?

 

[Junahu]

For some people. Considering how popular these things are, a lot of people don't seem to mind.

I imagine that they DO mind, but begrudgingly empty their wallets anyway, because the sunk cost compels them to give that little bit more for the full experience.

This was certainly the case for me and Theatrythm's DLC, where I ended up buying literally everything, at a cost of nearly £100. I did mind spending that money, but I spent it anyway. And knowing how much I spent makes me feel bitter and rotten about the experience.

 

[TimmiT]

It can be harmful when the game is intentionally designed around microtransactions though.

This. Mortal Kombat X's free fatalities is a good example of this, as that could have easily been an option that you can toggle on or off rather than a consumable.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I find it funny Bethesda started this crazy train of micro-transactions and yet I'd consider them some of the best when it comes to making high quality, fun and "worth the money" DLC/Expansions

I wonder if it's because Bethesda cleaned their act up, or if it's because the train has moved so far away from horse armor that Bethesda's DLC seems reasonable. I think it's the former.

Nintendo's been really good about DLC too. Nearly all of their DLC is value priced and adds insane amounts of content.

 

[C.Olimar788]

People will only whine that the games don't look next gen enough, or don't have enough content.

It's lose/lose for developers.

The AAA bubble will burst eventually. Might as well back the hell off while publishers have a chance to not lose a ton of their money when it does. Making worthwhile games will sell regardless of graphics or whether or not it's an open world... or the video game industry is worse than I ever imagined.

 

[Glass Shark]

I don't think he said anything that hasn't been said a million times before.

 

[Jebusman]

People will only whine that the games don't look next gen enough, or don't have enough content.

It's lose/lose for developers.

Except no? You can still make incredible looking games without sinking the massive budget that larger studios do. Think of all the money EA throws at marketing, or more importantly, their own company executives. Or maybe have your development studio in a location where the cost of living isn't ridiculously high.

I think I remember Tim Schafer saying all his employees needed to make at least $120/k a year because of being in San Fran. And Double Fine is a small-fry compared to the giants.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIOaGuTox14


He makes so really great points. I hope this raises consumer awareness. Post launch DLC and Micro-transactions have hurt the enjoyment of games.

Maybe his enjoyment. Post launch DLC for games like Battlefield and Red Dead Redemption increased my enjoyment.

 

[TimmiT]

I don't think he said anything that hasn't been said a million times before.

I think it's better to keep bringing it up as a problem than to let it turn into becoming something that people begrudgingly accept.

 

[Demon Lizardman]

I always felt like like DLC should be stuff that couldn't be included in the original game because the content wasn't finished yet. If the content was finished and taken out of the game to be separately paid for, that's just wrong.

 

[NinjaMouse]

So the problem is that we need more DLC, not that maybe, triple A development costs have gotten out of hand.

Video games don't need to cost millions of dollars to make.

While I agree that they don't need to...they just do. I can imagine it's incredibly laborious to build these games. I mean, look at something like Call of Duty, which has a Hollywood budget for a sub-6 hour campaign. The closer people get to the edge of realism in games, from a visual/audio aspect, the more it's just going to cost. You need an army of people to build trees, rocks, and all the other environmental things we mainly just step over when powering through the campaign.

The gaming masses just won't attached themselves to a bunch of retail games that look like the average indie title. Say what you want about the dude-bros of the world, but they are the ones that empty their pockets for these games.

On a similar note, look at all the iOS crap that SE has been kicking out. It's the cheapest way to fund the development of a next gen game. It's also precisely why MGSV:GZ was created (in my opinion). Kojima needed to basically fund the rest of the MGSV development somehow.

 

[C.Olimar788]

Maybe his enjoyment. Post launch DLC for games like Battlefield and Red Dead Redemption increased my enjoyment.

His issue with DLC is cases where it is pulled out of what would be the "finished product" to sell later. Things like on-disc DLC and the like - and, to be fair, the impression I get is that this trend has lessened considerably as of late.

Microtransactions are inexcusable, though, something which he points out. I think it's an important point to emphasize when he says that they are literally selling something for nothing.

 

[Karl Hawk]

He said stuff that we already knew before, but he's got a point.

Like I said before in another thread, I wouldn't be upset if the industry as a whole shuts down for good. They should suffer for their heinous crimes against consumers

 

[DannyDanger]

Oh geez...

This again...

DLC and MT's are optional, don't buy it if you don't want it.

This argument makes no sense to me because in the end, the ppl complaining are basically saying the content should be free, or shouldnt exist at all. (Otherwise why would they be complaining)

If you think it should be free or "included in the main game" - What are you basing that on? Do you know how many work hrs were put in to complete the game? Do you have a record of the companies financials that gives you the insight to make that call? Were you there when they decided to "cut this content from the main game"?

If you think it shouldn't exist at all - Why are you being selfish? If someone wants the option to extend the experience of a game they enjoy, how the hell does that effect you?
Where is your proof that they intentionally built the game around forcing to buy DLC or MT's?

 

[Stereogatari]

How the fuck are these AAAs spending hundreds of millions of dollars on budget? Are they insane? Sounds like a lot of money is being wasted, if they want to make more money then they should look inwards first.

 

[Jebusman]

I think it's better to keep bringing it up as a problem than to let it turn into becoming something that people begrudgingly accept.

We've already long past that.

Most people gave up the will to fight and just accept their wallet being taken for a ride.

Others may have only joined the gaming world in the last ~10 years, and don't really have a solid frame of reference of what it used to be like before then.

To them, they don't understand why people are complaining, because this style of DLC is all they've ever known.

 

[Renekton]

NetherRealms is making money by people paying $20 to unlock everything in the Krypt in the newest Mortal Kombat. Now, you can unlock all of that without giving them a penny if you put in enough hours. But, it is naive to believe that at no point did the fact they are selling a $20 unlock influence the decisions made as far as how many unlockables there are, the in-game cost of those unlockables, and the rate at which you gain that in-game currency. So, while you haven't engaged in any microtransactions, your gaming experience has been effected by their existence.

Is MKX's krypt coin earn rate very low? Do the unlocks cost a lot?

 

[Jebusman]

This argument makes no sense to me because in the end, the ppl complaining are basically saying the content should be free, or shouldnt exist at all. (Otherwise why would they be complaining)

This argument seems to make no sense to you because you're taking the exact wrong conclusion from it.

Do I think extra content should be free? No.

But do I think content should be sold piecemeal in a way that tries to nickle and dime the consumer to a point where they dumped more than the actual retail cost of the game in extras? No.

Do I dislike that game design/balance is influenced by the availability of these actions? No.

Look at the Diablo 3 auction house and the ATROCIOUS drop-rates stuff had at launch to compensate. If you couldn't find it, why not buy it? Why complain, you don't "HAVE" to use the auction house. The backlash was so strong Blizzard eventually removed it. Blizzard. A company that in the last few years has mastered the art of extracting cash from their customers, removing a feature that made them money.

 

[jelly]

Whats his alternative strategy for funding the insane cost of developing next gen games?

Oh, he doesn't have one, what a surprise.

Game budgets don't have to be ridiculous, marketing budgets don't have to be ridiculous, maybe if publishers didn't have technology arms races instead of competing with good game play. The more publishers push technology the less competition, they like being the headline title that is hard to compete with. Do they need famous actors, licensed music etc. I don't think so. Is there maybe mismanagement going on, does Ubisoft need 1000 staff on AC.

DLC can be okay, but publishers have been crossing the line and games are suffering for it. That choice to ignore is ebbing away and games are being designed to maximise micro transactions.

 

[Corpekata]

I gotta say I'm not sure what relevance his ultimate point has. He basically is okay with DLC but goes on a rant against microtransactions in AAA games. Which is fine, sure, but I'm struggling to think of MTs in big games that really hamper the experience. Games can be designed to make you grind, sure, but in AAA so far, save for maybe Easy Fatalities, I don't think we're seeing that (and that's not even that great an example). He uses as an example, putting fuel into his car, which I can't say I can think of anything close too in 60 dollar titles.


I mean, I get what he's going for overall but he seems weirdly fixated on a problem that's not really very large. He's fine as he says, with them ripping out skins and characters and charging him, which I dunno, seems kind of a weird capitulation. I'd argue things like season passes are a far bigger problem with AAA games than MTs or random DLC.

 

[e90Mark]

what about league of legends then. it's a p2ng like most facebook garbage games

Interesting game to make an example of. Skins are the only thing that require real money.

Champs could be bought with real money, but it's pretty expensive to do that and doesn't even make you good at the game lol.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

If I can earn everything in game that's being sold as microtransactions, then it doesn't bother me one bit. Not including different skins and whatnot, those I don't care about.

If others want to take the easy way and buy items that can be unlocked by playing countless hours then good for them. Their choice. Doesn't stop my enjoyment of playing said game.

To believe your gaming experience hasn't been effected by the existence of micro-transactions and DLC is to believe that a company has a product it wants to sell, but they aren't actually trying to sell it to you. And that is obviously nonsensical.

They have a product, they want to sell it to you, and decisions are made throughout development on how best to get you to buy it. Not believing that is, again, simply naivety.

 

[Shuggananas]

Interesting game to make an example of. Skins are the only thing that require real money.

Champs could be bought with real money, but it's pretty expensive to do that and doesn't even make you good at the game lol.

hence the "pay to not grind" name
It's not about being good or not, it's about having the full game or not

 

[Kama_1082]

You do know that for you to grind those things they make it take much more time to get. Or even better it allows them to make people for what were cheat codes. If there is a monetary gain it will influence game design. What normally would take you maybe a hour or two will now take 5 to tens of hours.


There are many alternatives, the first one is budget properly and stop spending so much on marketing. It's such a small percentage of a game like this sales it has a legacy that will sell itself.
Explain how quantic dream and the gran turismo guys made games significantly cheaper than some of these tent-pole releases?

You your self say the budgets are insane. Make them less sane.

Did available cheat codes ever ruin your enjoyment of a game? Or did you choose to ignore it and played the way you wanted to? I've been gaming since 1985 and I can count on one hand how many times I used those things and it sucked the joy out of it. The only difference now is that these cheat codes cost money. I ignored them then and I'm ignoring them now.

 

[DannyDanger]

This argument seems to make no sense to you because you're taking the exact wrong conclusion from it.

Do I think extra content should be free? No.

But do I think content should be sold piecemeal in a way that tries to nickle and dime the consumer to a point where they dumped more than the actual retail cost of the game in extras? No.

Do I dislike that game design/balance is influenced by the availability of these actions? No.

Look at the Diablo 3 auction house and the ATROCIOUS drop-rates stuff had at launch to compensate. If you couldn't find it, why not buy it? Why complain, you don't "HAVE" to use the auction house. The backlash was so strong Blizzard eventually removed it. Blizzard. A company that in the last few years has mastered the art of extracting cash from their customers, removing a feature that made them money.

So you think it shouldn't exist...
Either way it boils down to you telling ppl that put in money and hrs to create content, that they dont have the right to judge the value of their content...

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Is MKX's krypt coin earn rate very low? Do the unlocks cost a lot?

I haven't delved into it too much, it was just a recent example that popped into my head. But after completing the entire story mode it certainly seemed like I only unlocked an extremely tiny fraction of the content. And the fact that there's tons of worthless shit like artwork in there makes it more annoying.

 

[SolidSnakex]

This. Mortal Kombat X's free fatalities is a good example of this, as that could have easily been an option that you can toggle on or off rather than a consumable.

That's not a good example at all. Games that are intentionally designed around microtransations are the ones like Dungeon Keeper where the base game is so gimped in terms of progression that you either buy microtransations or it's going to take you forever to get anywhere in the game. With MKX, the fatalities are always there and there's really no barrier between you doing them as they're really easy to pull off. There are even quite a few fatalities in MKX where you don't even need to press a button after the directional input. That's how easy they are.