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[Lethe82]

Thoughts on Resourcing in Void

We just wanted to provide our thoughts on this topic. First, we’d like to say that the suggestion seems solid, and we really respect how everything is laid out and handled in a constructive way. This post is a good example of a really well thought out post that stays on topic with strong reasoning backing up the suggestion, rather than only emotions backing it up. Seeing posts like these is very impressive, because we understand that this type of analysis is very difficult to do when compared to just saying something unconstructive or emotion based only.

With that said, one of our main design philosophies, not just on Starcraft 2 but for Blizzard design as a whole, is to iterate and polish. Everything we put into our games goes well beyond just theorycrafting and has a heavy emphasis on figuring out exactly how something turns out in reality. We then gauge the two together over a long period of time before making a final decision on that specific mechanic.

We also hear the concerns that the current resourcing model places a lot of pressure on the player to expand. Our current thinking is that some degree of increased pressure is good for the game. We like the increased risk of mining out when committing to early aggressive strategies. With that said, the time it takes to mine out could be too fast. Like with most areas, we started extreme so that we could get a good feel for the impact of these changes, but we might need to scale back as we move forward. This is one of the areas we’ll be iterating on as we continue to test this system.

There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:

- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base)
- In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base)
- In the Void model, we have something in between the above


It's difficult to say for certain due to not a lot of playtesting time yet, but we believe the next step in tuning the resource model is to go a bit more towards having slightly less advantage for the expanding player, because we feel we went a bit too far in the other direction already. We're thinking of maybe trying 100% and 60% up from 100% and 50% for minerals.

To aid us in testing this model, the next wave of beta invites will include roughly top 20% of players from Season 1. We look forward to seeing more games and hearing more feedback.

And just to restate once more, we’re not saying the proposed suggestion isn’t worth further consideration. We just plan to spend more time evaluating the current system. At this point it’s unclear how well either option will work out in the end. We want to keep all options open, but for now we’d like to finish pursuing the current direction that is showing lots of strong potential first before making conclusions on this topic.

 

[Hazaro]

It was nice to see the TL post get addressed. It's still the best imo and helps solve worker supply inflation and immediate income advantage expanding before needing to make a lot of workers.

 

[Mr Swine]

It was nice to see the TL post get addressed. It's still the best imo and helps solve worker supply inflation and immediate income advantage expanding before needing to make a lot of workers.

Sadly blizzard will ignore this and continue with its own Eco instead of trying this stuff out during the beta

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

BlizzCon Virtual Ticket holders are getting their access which should boost player count by a lot.

I had no idea that my 2014 virtual ticket entitled me to the Beta. This evening Blizzard sent me an email notification that beta was enabled on my account.

 

[Corran Horn]

Just got into the beta today...weee. DLing it now.

 

[kasane]

Still no beta.

Gg

 

[EscapingJail]

Got in last night. The timings of everything are so different. It's crazy.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Eh got an invite to this earlier today... yep it's starcraft. The multiplayer isn't different enough for me, I'll probably still buy it but only for the campaign. Also I'm not sure why zerg got lurkers when we already had a ground splash damage unit (banelings) and a siege unit (swarm host and broodlords)

 

[phoenix296]

Got into the beta today. After playing a few hours it's clear no one knows what to do anymore. Starting with 13 workers is really messing with a lot of people (including me!). Games are much faster now thanks to this change. Really enjoying the beta so far.

 

[Mr Swine]

Why aren't I getting the beta -_- this is just like a cruel joke from blizzards side

 

[phoenixyz]

Still no beta.

Gg

Spoiler

me neither

 

[Lethe82]

They said that they will be putting the top 20% of players into the LOTV Beta starting next week!

Got into the beta today. After playing a few hours it's clear no one knows what to do anymore. Starting with 13 workers is really messing with a lot of people (including me!). Games are much faster now thanks to this change. Really enjoying the beta so far.

Glad to hear that you're enjoying it, have you tried the double harvester mod?

 

[phoenix296]

They said that they will be putting the top 20% of players into the LOTV Beta starting next week!



Glad to hear that you're enjoying it, have you tried the double harvester mod?

I have not. I'm assuming this mod is for HOTS? I haven't played much SCII since WOL so I've been out of touch with the game for most of the HOTS expansion and the comparisons I'm making are more to WOL. I can assume HOTS's meta remained mostly the same save for a few strategies incorporating the HOTS units. In LoV with 13 starting workers I can get 400 minerals between 1-2 minutes so I imagine the meta will be more drastically changed than anything done in HOTS.

 

[Lethe82]

Scarlett vs PartinG Double Harvest Economy Mod Showmatch (Starting 3.5 hours from this post)

http://www.twitch.tv/bacon_infinity

In just 4 hours we go live with the Scarlett vs PartinG Double Harvest Economy Mod Showmatch!

These two legendary players will be duking it out in the name of research, testing the new "Double Harvest" economy mod that was suggested by the legendary writers at Team Liquid.

More info on the showmatch can be found here! http://teamacer.com/en/scarlett_and_parting_sc2_showmatch.htm

Who do you think will take it? http://strawpoll.me/4215566

Send a tweet to @AcerScarlett @PartinGBigBoy and @Bacon_Infinity to let us all know how hyped you are!

Make sure you're watching:

http://www.twitch.tv/bacon_infinity

 

[Lethe82]

As testing continues to scale on Legacy of the Void Multiplayer, we’re getting more information on what’s working, and what could be improved. With this in mind, we’ve prepared a number of additional changes for the beta that we’d like to discuss.

New Terran Unit
Before we get into the changes for existing units, we’d like to first discuss the status of the new Terran unit. We’ve been experimenting with various ideas, from a new base defense structure, to an add-on that allows production facilities to change their type. At this time however, it seems we may move forward with a unit from the Starport. There are various ways we’ve been experimenting with this unit:

High damage, low rate of fire
Low damage, high rate of fire
Variable attack “modes” – High damage w/ low range & Low damage w/ high range.
Small radius area attack w/ high damage
And more…
In general, we believe that armies made from the Factory or Starport will be more capable as independent compositions in Legacy of the Void. Players will be able to commit to a tech-path specifically, and so we are also interested in splitting out the mech and air upgrades again. We believe that bringing back this choice is a potential improvement for the game.

We would also like to take a closer look at Terran bio play in Legacy of the Void. With the changes to bio and the many buffs to mech, it is possible that the advantage might be tilting too heavily towards mech armies right now. Ideally, we’d like to have a good mix of options by the time we ship the game.

Now let’s move on to the changes we’re planning for the next balance patch.

Gameplay Changes

New Reaper grenade ability
This activated-ability will allow Reapers to launch a grenade that deals damage and knocks units in that area back. What we’re hoping for on this front is not necessarily to make Reapers a must have in every combat situation, but something that would allow micro with and against the Reaper to be more interesting early on, as well as something that could be a combat bonus in some situations.

Mineral amounts changed from 100%/50% to 100%/60%
We discussed this a bit earlier this week and we feel that the pressure to expand might be too great in its current state. Our goal for Legacy of the Void is still to encourage more aggressive expansions, but we’d like to tune this a little bit in hopes of finding to the correct place.

Protoss: Warp-in duration reverted to Heart of the Swarm.
Our goals on this front were to weaken Protoss Warpgate all-ins and increase strategic decision making for where to use each warp in. The resource changes look to already be getting us into a good spot for the all-in case. Focusing on strategic use however, it currently feels too punishing for the Protoss. We’re finding that you’ll always want to pick the safer warp-in spot for your units. In changing this, we’ll create more interesting decisions for the other player on whether or not to go for the vulnerable units that are warping in, or to continue battling the units already on the field. Therefore, we’d like to see how this works out with just the increased damage and the warp-in time reverted back to its original value.

Adept

Adept’s weapon’s damage point changed from .4 to default (0.167)
We heard your feedback in that the Adept feels clunky to use, so we made some tweaks in this area.

Cyclone

Can no longer target air.
New upgrade: allows Cyclones to target air (fusion core requirement, researched from factory tech lab). 100/100 cost.
The Cyclone is currently too good at stopping early game harassment. This is the opposite of what we want in Legacy of the Void, as we want to see more harassment play happening on both sides. The idea here is to still have Cyclones as an option early on, but not so all-around to the point that most harassment openings can be prevented just by opening Cyclones. In the late game, when the upgrade is researched, we believe players’ bases would be spread out so much that even though the Cyclones themselves become well-rounded options, opponents fighting against them will have numerous harassment options and can more readily find vulnerable positions.

Ravager

Weapon period changed from 0.8 to 1.6
Weapon range reduced from 6 to 4
There looks to be some Ravager early game all-ins that are very difficult to stop. While we don’t know with 100% certainty that this is actually a problem, we decided to tone down the Ravager anyway so that we can see more units being used on the Zerg side. We have many more strategies and units that need to be tested and hope this change brings these into play. We chose these specific changes to create a clear distinction between Ravagers and Roaches. In short, Roaches will be better units for cost efficiency, whereas Ravagers are meant to be built in strategic numbers when their ability can prove useful.

Swarm Host

Cost changed to 200/100/3
No longer requires to upgrade for flying locusts (flying locusts are enabled from the start)
Locust health down from 65 to 50
Swarm hosts can burrow move at 2 speed
We also talked about Swarm Host changes earlier this week. With the Swarm Host, we’d like to explore getting to a good place sooner than with most unit changes in Void. The main reason is that HotS could potentially use a different design of the Swarm Host. We’d like to use the beta as a rough testing ground to see how the unit can turn out in both games potentially. Our goal here was to do the cost/supply cost changes to make Swarm Hosts more accessible. Locust health has also been reduced so that the mass Swarm Host case isn’t so good, and the Swarm Host burrow move change should help them be more effective at harassment.

Thanks you all for your feedback so far in the Legacy of the Void beta. As always, none of this is final and we will continue to make changes in the beta regularly. So please keep on play testing and keep the feedback rolling in!

Thank you, and see you on the beta!

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/18792769/

 

[Lethe82]

iNcontroL Talks: LotV balance update

LOTV Balance Update Thoughts / Rant

Jakatak Tea Time 71 - LotV Beta Balance Update #2

 

[Holundrian]

Did they update Bnet to not be awful?

 

[Lethe82]

So... I'm in the beta BUT it won't appear on my Bnet portal... only when I log onto Battlenet through the web page with no download button

EDIT: Fix!

I have the Lotv beta in my battle.net account on the webpage, but no Download Setup button and there is no Lotv Beta in my Battle.net client om my machine. I used these commands to force the battle.net client to download and install the lotv beta. I've been playing all day:
Hold Windows button, press R.
Type "cmd", hit Enter.
Type "c:\Program Files (x86)\Battle.net\battle.net.exe --game=s2_beta --install" without quotes.
gl hf

Remember to go to battle.net to check if you have been added.

 

[Steel]

Invunerable Nydus burrowing seems like a terrible idea. And I love Nydus.

 

[mr stroke]

Damn I want in this beta :/


Anyone know if there is an ETA for the full game yet?

 

[Lethe82]

Remember to check you nattlenet account on the webpage to see if you are in the beta. I think it will be a while they said they are running this beta much sooner than normal.

So far lotv feels like a fighting game, and the traditional early game feels like it should be replaced by teching to be aggressive AND expanding at the same time and kicking the shit out of one another until the game stabilizes. If they're looking for a happy medium between Hots economy and the current model I don't see why they just don't make half the mineral patches something like +140%, so you will still be 'in the game' (not under such extreme pressure to expand) but at the same time taking fresh bases is preferable.

 

[Mr Swine]

Damn I want in this beta :/


Anyone know if there is an ETA for the full game yet?

Either before or after Blizzcon.mi really hope I get the beta this week that is coming

 

[phoenixyz]

Dem feels when still no beta invite

 

[DieH@rd]

I havent watched SC2 esports scene for a while [since little after zerg expansion came out], so yesterday I watched latest GOM finals. Man, SC2 is still so fun for watching. I will continue watching GOM now since they have moved to YT.


BTW, when will the full version of LotV be out?

 

[Lethe82]

professional SCII has never been better.

 

[Lethe82]

I havent watched SC2 esports scene for a while [since little after zerg expansion came out], so yesterday I watched latest GOM finals. Man, SC2 is still so fun for watching. I will continue watching GOM now since they have moved to YT.


BTW, when will the full version of LotV be out?

A while, absolutely after blizzcon imo

Ruins of Seras is the best map of the map pool by far. I know that sounds stereotypical since it's basically a huge macro map, but all of the ledges and avenues of attack form organic gameplay permutations without railroading the player by introducing terrain and such that is too 'gimmicky' or funnels a certain playstyle to abuse a choke or what have you. It's just 'pure' SCII, but with enough bases etc to really support the LotV economy system. It allows you to get on enough bases to not really have to freak out about running out of money too soon, while still encouraging expanding.

I still really like my mineral adjustment where the main patches last a bit longer over 100% but the weaker patches mine out. I've been testing it in custom maps and it seems to help address issues with the smaller maps that are using the lotv econ model.

I kind of wonder if having the double worker start is good or not. Yes it speeds up the early game, which makes some units useless, but it also really creates massive econs very quickly with the mid game, which then translates into huge 'mass unit' timing pushes' particularly from Zerg. Wonder how giving you the usual starting workers, but more money at the start, or a mineral mining boost of 200% for a set duration might work to better naturally transition the game more smoothly into the mid and late game. It feels like right now in the mid game that your economy is so huge that you really just need to focus on THAT (and bases bases bases) as oppose to harassing. There seems to be a lot of mid game lulls where each side is just kind of establishing something resembling a viable longer term infastructure as oppose to dropping and trading.

 

[Mr Swine]

Still no Beta and people that aren't even playing Starcraft are getting betas... Pisses me off greatly :'(

 

[Lethe82]

Still no Beta and people that aren't even playing Starcraft are getting betas... Pisses me off greatly :'(

What league were you in last season

 

[Won]

Still no Beta and people that aren't even playing Starcraft are getting betas... Pisses me off greatly :'(

Hey now, I spent good 5 minutes with the beta. I did my part!

 

[Lethe82]

On larger maps this game is so much better than WoL and Hots that it's mind boggling. Unit interactions have time to actually happen and the lower overall econ and more surface area creates a lot of problem-solving not just death ball timing versus death ball timing.

Also, it is so good to have the lurker back, and I say that as a terran.

 

[Mr Swine]

What league were you in last season

Hmm silver but then again I play mostly team games :/ but I bought last years Virtual Ticket dammit!

Hey now, I spent good 5 minutes with the beta. I did my part!

Boo

On larger maps this game is so much better than WoL and Hots that it's mind boggling. Unit interactions have time to actually happen and the lower overall econ and more surface area creates a lot of problem-solving not just death ball timing versus death ball timing.

Also, it is so good to have the lurker back, and I say that as a terran.

It looks great from what I've seen from streams, but people want a brood war like Econ and not the one that is implemented right now. Don't think blizzard will change anything sadly

 

[Hazaro]

I'd give you access if it was on my throwaway account, sorry!

 

[Mr Swine]

YEAH I GOT THE BETA!!! YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!

 

[Lethe82]

YEAH I GOT THE BETA!!! YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!

Awesome to hear, add me! There's a double harvester tournament happening soon ish. I have to say that I'm not overly convinced of its superiority based on the show matches I have seen, but who's the say!

I'll try to dig up the graphic.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/484435-double-harvesting-team-liquid-open

Ah it already happened!

Replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Heyoka/replay/DH9TLOpenReplays.zip

I kind of feel like... maybe something like both the mineral change and this kind of change might work out better. This system results in what feels like very slow games compared to even WoL. Maybe I need to watch more.

But then again this is also kind of useless playing the double harvester mod on HotS. It seems like a system that would actually work much better with the units and map ethos of lotv, not sure why they aren't mixing the DH mod with the lotv fan alpha.

Vods will be up whenever.

Here are all the double harvester articles and such so far

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/33dy6o/david_kims_thoughts_on_resourcing_in_void_to_aid/
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/c...thoughts_on_resourcing_in_void_to_aid/cqk1712
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/483599-in-response-to-david-kim-re-sc2-economy

 

[Lethe82]

New Patch in gif form

http://imgur.com/a/eyT99

I have to say the only thing I am negative on is the reduction in Lurker DMG. The Brood Lord buff is fine, considering how large maps will likely be going forward, though they really need to look at how powerful the Viper ability is.

 

[Mr Swine]

New Patch in gif form

http://imgur.com/a/eyT99

I have to say the only thing I am negative on is the reduction in Lurker DMG. The Brood Lord buff is fine, considering how large maps will likely be going forward, though they really need to look at how powerful the Viper ability is.

Brood lord range is too much, now I can't engage mass Brood Lords since my units can't reach them in time, he'll even my thorns suck against them now :/ Also I think it is time for Blizzard to scrap Planetary Fortress since its worthless when Zerg has Ravagers/Lurkers and now Protoss have Disruptors

 

[Lethe82]

Brood lord range is too much, now I can't engage mass Brood Lords since my units can't reach them in time, he'll even my thorns suck against them now :/ Also I think it is time for Blizzard to scrap Planetary Fortress since its worthless when Zerg has Ravagers/Lurkers and now Protoss have Disruptors

They're great for negating cheaper and expendable waves of ling bane killing bases. Killing a planetary still requires positional/supply/econ commitment. Orbitals alone have to be managed with a lot more dedicated defenses, something that would be an issue with how much bigger lotv maps are trending. Just my two cents.

 

[Mr Swine]

They're great for negating cheaper and expendable waves of ling bane killing bases. Killing a planetary still requires positional/supply/econ commitment. Orbitals alone have to be managed with a lot more dedicated defenses, something that would be an issue with how much bigger lotv maps are trending. Just my two cents.

I don't know, Zerg and Protoss have killed my planetary's with ease now they can use that corrosive bile and Disruptors killing all my workers like nothing

 

[SmartWaffles]

I don't really like the newest wave of changes but oh well, gotta start somewhere.

 

[Lethe82]

I don't know, Zerg and Protoss have killed my planetary's with ease now they can use that corrosive bile and Disruptors killing all my workers like nothing

That's true, Planetary is weaker than before, but I still feel like they're a good investment. It's weird though, I haven't seen like any Ravager usage since the lurker buffs.

 

[Mr Swine]

That's true, Planetary is weaker than before, but I still feel like they're a good investment. It's weird though, I haven't seen like any Ravager usage since the lurker buffs.

I think we are going to see less planetary's and more OC in the future... Oh I had 4 Zerg players go Ravagers only yesterday and killed my tank lines like nothing lol, lurkers are fun to fight against XD

 

[Lethe82]

Were you meching? I usually play bio tank TvZ because I can't help but play offbeat (I also mech TvP in Hots). Medivac pickup can kind of help versus Ravagers.

Yeah I can see that, I'd almost like it if the Planetary got some upgrade that would make it better against protoss A moving (fuck you zealot warp ins)!

I love lurkers because they create good 'longer term' board control and situational problem solving. So much more engaging than just a moved roach waves and the like.

Also holy shit Adepts have an insane amount of hitpoints, they really feel like a core gateway unit now that no one is bothering to use (except when they do and holy crap).

 

[Syf]

Missile turret - reverted to need engi bay again
Burrow - back to upgrade
Air & mech upgrades - split up again
Gas increase per base
Liberator

Another wave of changes that I mostly hate. Not feeling any excitement for the game right now.

 

[Lethe82]

Missile turret - reverted to need engi bay again
Burrow - back to upgrade
Air & mech upgrades - split up again
Gas increase per base
Liberator

Another wave of changes that I mostly hate. Not feeling any excitement for the game right now.

Yeah not really a fan of these recent changes, though it will be a long beta.

Well the split mech upgrades aren't bad.

 

[phoenixyz]

Has there been any word/rumors on when there will be additional invites? Or when the ranked mode in the beta will start?

 

[Syf]

Has there been any word/rumors on when there will be additional invites? Or when the ranked mode in the beta will start?

They've been doing about one wave per week steadily, with priority for VIPs, 2014 blizzcon attendees and virtual ticket holders so far. I think all those people are about in by now so I imagine the next step will be drawing randomly from those who have signed up for the beta.

No idea about ranked mode.

 

[Syf]

Actually they just posted that another wave went out last night targeting active ladder players from season one of this year. So that helps your chances too.

 

[Mr Swine]

Yeah not really a fan of these recent changes, though it will be a long beta.

Well the split mech upgrades aren't bad.

I'm guessing they are splitting the upgrades because of the new Terran unit. Also I wish that Vikings got buffed, they are still very bad at everything.

I honestly don't think Blizzard will do much in the beta this 6-8 months, just a few tweaks here and there and call it a day

 

[phoenixyz]

Actually they just posted that another wave went out last night targeting active ladder players from season one of this year. So that helps your chances too.

They've been doing about one wave per week steadily, with priority for VIPs, 2014 blizzcon attendees and virtual ticket holders so far. I think all those people are about in by now so I imagine the next step will be drawing randomly from those who have signed up for the beta.

No idea about ranked mode.

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[Syf]

I honestly don't think Blizzard will do much in the beta this 6-8 months, just a few tweaks here and there and call it a day

I get that feeling too, which is really disappointing imo. They started out ambitious but they've been slowly patching it back to Heart of the Swarm stuff, often not giving major changes more than a week or two before removing them. Not even trying out TL's proposed economic changes which are hugely supported by the community. It's frustrating. I'll still buy it, I'll still watch, but I was hoping they'd try a lot more big changes because there's real improvements that could be made in SC2.

At least they've promised new social features in the next patch.