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[Lynn616]

2 days ago: "LOL, everyone knows no pub wants to fund another Shenmue game, there's just not enough customers to justify the risk. It's a dead in the water IP people, let it go."

Now: "Did people really think there wasn't a lot of demand for Shenmue 3? It's fucking Shenmue 3! Sony could have easily funded it. Shady and scummy if you ask me."

Did someone say both things?

 

[Lemondish]

The GAF mood swings are giving me whiplash.

Did you fucking want the game or what?

 

[Ghost Slayer]

Yes
Look at Bayonetta 2 and Rise of the Tomb Raider

Err, since when Bayonetta 2 or RoTR use Kickstater?

 

[4Tran]

Doesn't GAF always have threads about how pre-orders are bad and that we should wait until the game comes out and works? That way we don't promote reward that put out unfinished game? That may be reddit

This is still true. However, there's a decent chance that a more successful campaign can have direct results on how ambitious the game is going to be. This isn't true of pre-orders, so it's worth considering. Moreover, two of the reasons why people make higher tier pledges are to show their support for their project and to get swag. And these usually can't be easily achieved after release.

However, as a Kickstarter advocate, I would still suggest that anyone on the fence about making a pledge should refrain from doing so, and waiting until the game is released. The normal caveat that a Kickstarter project might fail if you don't support it doesn't apply in this case.

 

[Ocaso]

Honestly, I am actually quite surprised that gamers actually want Shenmue 3 in huge demand.

Shenmue 1 did just over a million sales, right? Shenmue 2 did probably what.. 1/3rd of that?

Part of the reason we didn't have Shenmue 3 already was because nobody bought 2. I'm the only person I personally know who even played the game.

..and no offense, if you didn't play Shenmue when it came out.. I'm not sure how a gamer new to the series would probably even enjoy the game all that much. It's pretty dated by todays standards.

I just would feel better about the KS if they were upfront about the funding.

I esa tempted to not respond because of your tag, but I might as well state the obvious: being interested is not the same as being committed. Yes, Sony were obviously interested. They were almost certainly not committed. As obvious as it seems now, it was entirely possible that the campaign could have flopped because, after all, talk is cheap and it was never clear how many fans were actually willing to pay for Shenmue 3. Once this thing broke KS records, then Sony committed. Did Sony have an if:then arrangement with Suzuki? Almost certainly. Would it have been nice to know beforehand? Sure, I suppose. But business is business, and seeing how the KS went before committing massive amounts of cash is good business. To act like it was some big deception with the illest of intentions is the true absurdity here, particularly since the signs were there even beforehand to anyone looking for them.

 

[xxracerxx]

That would be pretty neat if it was.

But I just said it would have been amazing if Sony could have made that happen.

Sony is not running the campaign.

 

[Steroyd]

I think people would have looked at Sony differently if they had put their name on the Kickstarter. I have no clue whether it would have gotten funded or not (although I think it would have gotten funded no matter who's name was on it).

You have to admit that it would have looked real weird if Sony was asking gamers to pony up pre-development in order to make a game.

You're assuming that Sony would officially have backed SHENMUE wether the kickstarter was successful or not, can't expect them to fully commit at the start if they had set prerequisites.

Doesn't GAF always have threads about how pre-orders are bad and that we should wait until the game comes out and works? That way we don't promote reward that put out unfinished game? That may be reddit

The biggest pre-order no-no is when a publisher has a million pre-order bonus' or multiple store pre-order exclusives... Or Ubisoft games. Besides kickstarters are investments more than pre-orders, but I can see how people can view them as psuedo pre-orders.

 

[Theonik]

2 days ago: "LOL, everyone knows no pub wants to fund another Shenmue game, there's just not enough customers to justify the risk. It's a dead in the water IP people, let it go."

Now: "Did people really think there wasn't a lot of demand for Shenmue 3? It's fucking Shenmue 3! Sony could have easily funded it. Shady and scummy if you ask me."

Seriously. This is hilarious.

 

[4Tran]

Sony doesn't own the IP, but they sure do own a lot more of the revenue now so it is partly their project.

If Sony was really amazing they would have gotten the fans to fund the whole game. That would have been amazing.

Sorry, but that would have been a really dumb idea.

 

[celsowmbr]

Spoiler

Just Enjoy Gaf ! It's Shenmue 3 !!!!

 

[Curufinwe]

Surely Sony thought that they could sell more than 66K copies of this game (the amount that would have been necessary to meet funding goals), otherwise they wouldn't have given Suzuki the time of day.

I actually not sure if Kickstarter is a good way to gauge interest beyond the grassroots, hardcore fans -- particularly when it's in kind of an oddball genre like this one where you can't look at the sales of similar games.

Okay, so 35K people want to buy Shenmue and put down money for it today. How many people will buy it when it releases? How much of a budget should it have? How much should be spent on marketing? Nobody really knows how far the market goes beyond this wave of Kickstarter backers.

It's their job to estimate demand and make investment decisions based on all available information. Now they have a lot more info on Shemue's popularity than a day ago.

 

[Littlefang]

This is still true. However, there's a decent chance that a more successful campaign can have direct results on how ambitious the game is going to be. This isn't true of pre-orders, so it's worth considering. Moreover, two of the reasons why people make higher tier pledges are to show their support for their project and to get swag. And these usually can't be easily achieved after release.

However, as a Kickstarter advocate, I would still suggest that anyone on the fence about making a pledge should refrain from doing so, and waiting until the game is released. The normal caveat that a Kickstarter project might fail if you don't support it doesn't apply in this case.

Not really. It's still completely possible that something goes wrong in development and this game doesn't get made or it doesn't get made for a really long time. Look at The Last Guardian for example.

 

[sn00zer]

It was a bit shifty, but there was really no clear way for Sony to gauge an actual buying audience otherwise. Im guessing their was about 10 different plans and budgets depending on how the kickstarter went

 

[border]

Did someone say both things?

No, but the NeoGAF Hivemind is an easy scapegoat.

 

[LaMeRz]

You're assuming that Sony would officially have backed SHENMUE wether the kickstarter was successful or not, can't expect them to fully commit if they had set prerequisites.

Do not expect them to fully commit but would hope they respect the fans enough to be honest. If Sony said "Hey guys were are teaming up with the Shenmue team to try and bring you the game you always wanted. We have a Kickstarter and once we break the fund goal we are good to go." then no problem. Instead they acted like were not involved and just wanted to get the word out.

[/QUOTE]The biggest pre-order no-no is when a publisher has a million pre-order bonus' or multiple store pre-order exclusives... Or Ubisoft games. Besides kickstarters are investments more than pre-orders, but I can see how people can view them as psuedo pre-orders.[/QUOTE]

An investment in fun and whimsy...(really a donation but Kickstarter is awesome. Lots of board games off of it.)

 

[4Tran]

Not really. It's still completely possible that something goes wrong in development and this game doesn't get made or it doesn't get made for a really long time. Look at The Last Guardian for example.

Sure, there's always a chance that any game can fail at the development stage, but if Shenmue III does so, it will not be on account of how much money its Kickstarter campaign garnered. And as that's what's germane to the discussion, my point stands.

 

[digita1alchemy]

I don't blame Sony for going this route at all. Just making the game on a hunch would be a huge risk. They wanted to be sure.

 

[Faustek]

Seems appropriate that Sony should foot the bill for Shenmue III when it was their PS2 hype machine that cut the Dreamcast off at the knees. They owe Sega and Shenmue fans at least this much.

Or they could just go beat up that dude that "gave away Shenmue to Xbox

Spoiler

(please don't)

. heh, I wonder if somewhere deep down inside this is the reason why I can't see eye to eye with Moore. I mean I like the dude enough, he seems genuinely "cool" but there is something shady about the company :/

 

[kyser73]

ITT lots of people need to learn the meaning of the phrase 'the value of your investment may go down as well as up. The project may not be completed and you will not be entitled to a refund.'

I swear people seem to think that because it's their money and its 'crowd funded' that the rule caveat emptor doesn't apply.

 

[Dyson Industries]

The GAF mood swings are giving me whiplash.

Did you fucking want the game or what?

I don't understand why people are whinging about this project, but that's alright I suppose.

If you really want to make a statement, you should contribute to a fellow GAF member's Kickstarter instead. No publisher backing for Bishoptl's project, it's just him.

 

[LaMeRz]

Sorry, but that would have been a really dumb idea.

I just said it would be amazing. Not a good idea.

A good idea would have been to be transparent about your teamup with the Shenmue team from the start.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The GAF mood swings are giving me whiplash.

Did you fucking want the game or what?

No it's tainted now.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Kazaam]

That would be pretty neat if it was.

True, it would be amazing if the kickstarter would cover everything from development to publishing and marketing. But, as much as record breaking the kickstarter campaign is, I don't think it could back a whole project like Shenmue 3. Either that or we have different expectations from the game.

But I just said it would have been amazing if Sony could have made that happen.

I don't understand. How would Sony make only the fans back the whole project?

 

[maquiladora]

Not really. It's still completely possible that something goes wrong in development and this game doesn't get made or it doesn't get made for a really long time. Look at The Last Guardian for example.

It's being built in UE4 and isn't the kind of game that is likely to push technical boundaries. Highly unlikely it would face the type of problems that TLG faced on PS3.

 

[LaMeRz]

I don't understand. How would Sony make only the fans back the whole project?

I don't know. That would have been the amazing part. Maybe a Sony Humble Bundle of sorts with all proceeds going to Shenmue?

 

[Neuromancer]

I literally don't understand why some people are upset about this. Games require a lot of money to make and going to Kickstarter is a smart way to help fund them.

 

[Handy Fake]

I just said it would be amazing. Not a good idea.

A good idea would have been to be transparent about your teamup with the Shenmue team from the start.

They should have invited them on stage with them during the Sony conference, really. Shown a trailer perhaps.

 

[4Tran]

I don't know. That would have been the amazing part. Maybe a Sony Humble Bundle of sorts with all proceeds going to Shenmue?

This would still be Sony funding Shenmue, just in a more roundabout and silly way.

 

[Silent Chief]

Shenmue 3 is happening.. I think we can deal with this. Sony could have been asses and not allow it on PC, but low and behold it's on PC.

Really. The kickstarter is mostly for the PC version. Why would Sony fund that?

 

[LaMeRz]

This would still be Sony funding Shenmue, just in a more roundabout and silly way.

True. Touche

 

[hawk2025]

I don't know. That would have been the amazing part. Maybe a Sony Humble Bundle of sorts with all proceeds going to Shenmue?

I...

Are...

Are you just kind of winging the logic here and seeing what sticks?

 

[xxracerxx]

I don't know. That would have been the amazing part. Maybe a Sony Humble Bundle of sorts with all proceeds going to Shenmue?

That would be Sony funding Shenmue still.

I...

Are...

Are you just kind of winging the logic here and seeing what sticks?

Seems that way.

 

[Damerman]

what the fuck is adam boyes? is there a smoother motherfucker out there? jeez. (in reference to that mod abuse)

 

[Galactic Barret]

Why not, instead of complaining about this, embrace it and ask for your favorite dead IPs to be put on kickstarter so you can show you really care. Ask MS for BK to be made and show you really want it by putting your money where your mouth is. This is perfect for reviving those games your really, REALLY wanted; you can get Perfect Dark or Syphon Filter or F-Zero by truly displaying that you are willing to pay for it by actually paying for it.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This goes way, way beyond THIS game, or that it's Sony, or that it involves Kickstarter to me. This is every conversation that involves anything other than "third party publisher funds game for every platform" or "first party develops and funds game for their own console." We could be talking about Bayonetta 2, or Street Fighter V, or No Man's Land, or Sunset Overdrive, or Tomb Raider 2015, or this, or the Bloodstained Kickstarter, or the Double Fine Kickstarter, or... I could go on and on. My issue is that so often conversation becomes so mired in delineating between very similar-seeming situations and citing minor differences to justify what are often not-really-cogent arguments that are mired in arguments that are more emotional than rational and tend to reveal one's own bias more than clear moral guidelines for which types of funding are ok and which aren't.

You are free to disagree with me. I'm not saying that I've got everything figured out. But I personally just find it much easier to accept that if I want to play certain games, I need to accept that partnerships with platform holders are a normal part of doing business. Going forward, accepting that crowdfunding isn't just for small indies is also increasingly becoming a fairly obvious thing I need to accept (in my opinion).

Things just seem easier to me operating in that fashion. As opposed to going "this exclusivity is bad because of these reasons I'm hastily typing up, but this other game's exclusivity is good for these other reasons I'm hastily typing up."

It is like you went right into my head, but put it down in text much better than I could have explained at the moment.

 

[Eila]

Really. The kickstarter is mostly for the PC version. Why would Sony fund that?

There was no SFV kickstarter, yet there's a PC version in the works.
SOE also put out a lot of PC games for years.

 

[Seven Force]

2 days ago: "LOL, everyone knows no pub wants to fund another Shenmue game, there's just not enough customers to justify the risk. It's a dead in the water IP people, let it go."

Now: "Did people really think there wasn't a lot of demand for Shenmue 3? It's fucking Shenmue 3! Sony could have easily funded it. Shady and scummy if you ask me."

For real. The about face is fucking hilarious.

Don't care though, we're getting fucking Shenmue 3. Not even standard GAF negativity/skepticism can kill that high for me.

 

[Nvzman]

This goes way, way beyond THIS game, or that it's Sony, or that it involves Kickstarter to me. This is every conversation that involves anything other than "third party publisher funds game for every platform" or "first party develops and funds game for their own console." We could be talking about Bayonetta 2, or Street Fighter V, or No Man's Land, or Sunset Overdrive, or Tomb Raider 2015, or this, or the Bloodstained Kickstarter, or the Double Fine Kickstarter, or... I could go on and on. My issue is that so often conversation becomes so mired in delineating between very similar-seeming situations and citing minor differences to justify what are often not-really-cogent arguments that are mired in arguments that are more emotional than rational and tend to reveal one's own bias more than clear moral guidelines for which types of funding are ok and which aren't.

You are free to disagree with me. I'm not saying that I've got everything figured out. But I personally just find it much easier to accept that if I want to play certain games, I need to accept that partnerships with platform holders are a normal part of doing business. Going forward, accepting that crowdfunding isn't just for small indies is also increasingly becoming a fairly obvious thing I need to accept (in my opinion).

Things just seem easier to me operating in that fashion. As opposed to going "this exclusivity is bad because of these reasons I'm hastily typing up, but this other game's exclusivity is good for these other reasons I'm hastily typing up."

*claps*

 

[Kazaam]

I don't know. That would have been the amazing part. Maybe a Sony Humble Bundle of sorts with all proceeds going to Shenmue?

Seriously though, I see you have a strong opinion regarding Sony's evil involvement in this. I for one would advise you not to lose too much energy on this and simply enjoy the idea that Shenmue 3 will come out. If you don't want to support the game through kickstarter, just wait for it to come out and maybe give it a try then. If you don't have a PS4, just smile at the thought of enjoying the Shenmue awesomeness on your PC.

 

[Windom Earle]

I see this thread went to shit again. I think the main problem with those concerned individuals is that they do not understand how kickstarter works.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pledges can be cancelled/changed anytime and for a whole month !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody got "tricked" into anything.

 

[Theonik]

The biggest pre-order no-no is when a publisher has a million pre-order bonus' or multiple store pre-order exclusives... Or Ubisoft games. Besides kickstarters are investments more than pre-orders, but I can see how people can view them as psuedo pre-orders.

OK, being honest here, there is no way I could ever really call a KS an investment unless I am speculating on the appreciation of KS rewards (which only applies to physical rewards therefore) but it really doesn't make that much sense as an investment on your part, especially when a project is funded. And of course, a lot of KS is basically glorified pre-order bonuses in exchange for you paying 2 years in advance… People do need to be aware of the risks involved and how irresponsible it potentially can be to back projects willy nilly. People shouldn't try to sugarcoat it or make arbitrary semantic boundaries about what is what when it's clear the lines are as blurred as they are.

Now, having said that. Why on earth am I pouring $510 onto Shenmue III? What could I possibly get out of this? Well, let's just put it this way… Just the excitement and emotions I have been through this last couple of days would have justified going for $5k if they gave me the option. Yu Suzuki could buy himself a second Ferrari at this point with my money. idgaf.

I can see how not everyone feels this way, some people would never believe this project could even happen. Being concerned about how I choose to spend my disposable income is none of your business though. If you don't want to pay for this or want to get it for $5 on a Steam sale is your business.

It's being built in UE4 and isn't the kind of game that is likely to push technical boundaries. Highly unlikely it would face the type of problems that TLG faced on PS3.

The fact it uses UE4 frees a massive amount of resources from the developers to focus on other things, however it doesn't downgrade the technical competence of the project or its ability to push technical and production boundaries. It's budget is. In fact, I would say, a well funded UE4 game could give a game like TLG a run for its money.

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Kickstarter smickstarter. All I care about is that this game, many felt would never see the light of day, is happening with the help of fans who are willing to show their interest beyond just anonymously putting their name down on a petition or complaining about how obvious a money maker a new game would be.

I never paid into the kickstarter idea to S3 was announced yesterday. I put my 60 down and think of it as a very early preorder, something else I rarely do anymore since the Dreamcast was around. I don't think Yu, Sony, or anyone else associated with this kickstarter are doing this with any shady intentions. This game flat out wouldn't exist or possibly not in this form if the kickstarter was not successful. Not to mention how immensely successful it is, it may push Yu and his team to work even harder to give us a fulfilling continuation of the Shenmue story. That's all I ever wanted, even if it were just in graphic novel form.

I understand kickstarter is a very touchy subject for many but I think this one was created with good intentions and to build positive hype. I'm all for it just not for all games. Shenmue is an exception not the rule for future games with low expectations.

 

[Hatty]

Err, since when Bayonetta 2 or RoTR use Kickstater?

they are similar enough situations that the reactor can be compared. Every company gets backlash trying to say that poor plucky little Sony is being picked on while others would get off with no "outrage" is pathetic

 

[Theonik]

I see this thread went to shit again. I think the main problem with those concerned individuals is that they do not understand how kickstarter works.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pledges can be cancelled/changed anytime and for a whole month !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody got "tricked" into anything.

A lot of people don't seem to realise this. No-one has spent a cent as of now. If people aren't happy they simply are not spending money and are backing out. It's that simple.

 

[RadarScope1]

This goes way, way beyond THIS game, or that it's Sony, or that it involves Kickstarter to me. This is every conversation that involves anything other than "third party publisher funds game for every platform" or "first party develops and funds game for their own console." We could be talking about Bayonetta 2, or Street Fighter V, or No Man's Land, or Sunset Overdrive, or Tomb Raider 2015, or this, or the Bloodstained Kickstarter, or the Double Fine Kickstarter, or... I could go on and on. My issue is that so often conversation becomes so mired in delineating between very similar-seeming situations and citing minor differences to justify what are often not-really-cogent arguments that are mired in arguments that are more emotional than rational and tend to reveal one's own bias more than clear moral guidelines for which types of funding are ok and which aren't.

You are free to disagree with me. I'm not saying that I've got everything figured out. But I personally just find it much easier to accept that if I want to play certain games, I need to accept that partnerships with platform holders are a normal part of doing business. Going forward, accepting that crowdfunding isn't just for small indies is also increasingly becoming a fairly obvious thing I need to accept (in my opinion).

Things just seem easier to me operating in that fashion. As opposed to going "this exclusivity is bad because of these reasons I'm hastily typing up, but this other game's exclusivity is good for these other reasons I'm hastily typing up."

Good post. Bottom line: the industry is changing. If someone is making judgments about what's happening today or tomorrow based only on what's happened in the past, then they're probably off base. It's just not like it used to be. Not saying people don't have a right to complain or voice reasoned opinions. But we have to consider economic realities.

 

[Littlefang]

Why not, instead of complaining about this, embrace it and ask for your favorite dead IPs to be put on kickstarter so you can show you really care. Ask MS for BK to be made and show you really want it by putting your money where your mouth is. This is perfect for reviving those games your really, REALLY wanted; you can get Perfect Dark or Syphon Filter or F-Zero by truly displaying that you are willing to pay for it by actually paying for it.

See I would be all for this, but the thing is that you could end paying for a product that is never made. I'm sure everything will go fine with Shenmue I'm just worried about publishers jumping aboard this train with other games and those projects falling through.

 

[Fantomex]

I just said it would be amazing. Not a good idea.

A good idea would have been to be transparent about your teamup with the Shenmue team from the start.

You should probably go outside, or go watch Jurassic World, I hear it's great.

 

[xxracerxx]

See I would be all for this, but the thing is that you could end paying for a product that is never made. I'm sure everything will go fine with Shenmue I'm just worried about publishers jumping aboard this train with other games and those projects falling through.

And if that happens, it happens and they get a huge blackmark on their record. I mean look at what has happened with Double Fine and their Kickstarter projects. They sure do not have the consumer confidence they once had.

 

[Neofire]

Regardless of what any negativity mongers say I will be in line day one if it's release fir my ps4 version and I thank Sony fir making it happen.

 

[Silent Chief]

I don't blame Sony for going this route at all. Just making the game on a hunch would be a huge risk. They wanted to be sure.

I think it goes down to the PC version. Sony doesn't fund PC games. Somewhere, someone--Sega? Suzuki?--wanted a PC version and didn't want to pay for it. Sony pays for development and kickstarter funds the PC port.

Somebody here would prefer Shenmue 3 to be made on a shoestring budget?

At any rate, the game comes out unless something happens to Suzuki.