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HoloLens Minecraft Demo
- Thread starter zakislam
- Start date
Seems to me like a pointless gimmick. It has almost no applications at least in its current design. You can't play on a monitor and look at a table which is perfectly aligned at the same tome... Even then a 3D map is all you can hope for. The few games that are designed around it will be niche and sparse. I don't see why everybody is freaking out about it.
What they didnt show was that the guys hand when pulling and pushing blocks is located BEHIND the hologram.
This is (mockup) what youll see... the hologram will always be in front of your hands...
This alone removes all WOW factor for me... it looks cool when nothing is in FRONT of what im looking at... but as soon as something is supposed to move in front of it... all immersion is lost.
Your mock-up image, and my own observations about how careful they have been to avoid this scenario from occurring in their demos (to the extent that they always seem to use a third-person perspective now), inspired me to dig up the earliest reveal of HoloLens, which included the first (and only?) first person perspective demo.
Shown here is a group of application tiles projected so that it appears to be on the wall. The user uses her finger to select a tile but you see that the projection overlays over her because it doesn't create negative space for her finger to show through.
Here's the video at that moment, if you want to see it too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYq7OgbQEhc?t=16m30s
As far as I can tell, all other demos after this one (including the new E3 demo) were filmed in third person instead, and used careful choreography to prevent any part of the user from overlapping over the projection. Is it to avoid this from happening again? I honesty can't tell at this point if they plan to solve this with dynamic hand/object tracking and just aren't ready to show it in action, or if they are trying to hide the flaw. I'm obviously more concerned about the latter.
Well, we all have a dying skeleton inside us. Think about it ;-)
I actually think this AR tech is really cool and has great applications. I also think it's amazing the ballet they've put on in their demos in order to avoid the problem scenario. Once you are aware of it, you see it everywhere.
Lol eye of judgment?
Even people covering the event don't realize. But sure, Microsoft isn't lying or deceiving anybody here.
lmao, they haven't finalized the fov considering both prototypes have had different ones. it's also pretty well known and besides that, the previews have been extremely positive. besides the one issue of the fov, it's working as intended. this isn't a kinect situation or an incredibly deceptive one as you keep touting, even stinkles said in the halo thread that it has occlusion.
i get being skeptical, i do, but your posts come off as if the entire thing is a lie and nothing about it works as previewed or intended.
edit:
Alx
Member
You don't need hand tracking to solve that, it's as simple as a Z-buffer. If you can measure the depth map of the whole scene (and that's what the embedded kinects are for), you can easily threshold all the parts where the depth in the real scene is smaller than the one in the virtual one (aka "there is something between the "hologram" and my eyes) and just disable the rendering on those pixels.
in short :
mask = not_zero(virtual_depth_map - real_depth_map )
set virtual_image to transparent on mask
There may be some subtle geometry correction to take into account the small offset of the depth camera from the eye position, but at worst when ignoring that you would get weird effects on the edges of objects, but you could still see them over the virtual image.
*edit : the effect may be double-weird since there are two different points of view to render (one for each eye), so it would be 3D weirdness.
You don't need hand tracking to solve that, it's as simple as a Z-buffer. If you can measure the depth map of the whole scene (and that's what the embedded kinects are for), you can easily threshold all the parts where the depth in the real scene is smaller than the one in the virtual one (aka "there is something between the "hologram" and my eyes) and just disable the rendering on those pixels.
in short :
mask = not_zero(virtual_depth_map - real_depth_map )
set virtual_image to transparent on mask
There may be some subtle geometry correction to take into account the small offset of the depth camera from the eye position, but at worst when ignoring that you would get weird effects on the edges of objects, but you could still see them over the virtual image.
*edit : the effect may be double-weird since there are two different points of view to render (one for each eye), so it would be 3D weirdness.
Right, and the demos usually show this as a room sensing "pulse" at the beginning that goes out and learns the environment geometry. The problem is a hand or other object will be much more dynamic (and in the case of fingers, more minute), so as long as they are constantly interpreting this on the fly they can occlude the relevant portions of the projection. But there are two moving targets to accomodate: the head which changes the perspective, and the intersecting hand (or other foreign object for that matter).
As I've said, there are definitely solutions for this - some better than others - I just don't know why we haven't been shown any of them yet.
Alx
Member
The moving head is already tracked, since it's the basis of what makes AR possible. And the dynamic depth of the scene is a raw data that is constantly measured and doesn't need additional tracking or analysis. It's as I described it : the AR part already computed the depth of the virtual scene relative to the head. Compare its depth buffer to the raw output of the depth sensors, and you have all the pixels where you should not overlay, all in a single operation.
The FOV is as intended. Phil Spencer and Kudo were on Giant Bomb last night and said not to expect any significant changes to that aspect. And you really shouldn't expect the occlusion issue to be fixed. The demo given to Giant Bomb was non-interactive and they still noticed it. It's not a small bug or an edge case, it's how the hololens works.
There are things that are really cool about the technology, but as long as Microsoft finds themselves unwilling to demonstrate the product as it actually exists to the general public I see no reason to be excited about it.
Spottiettiedop
Member
It's obvious Hololens is still cooking in the oven, but the Halo/Warzone concept has me intrigued and the Minecraft demo was dope.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Even people covering the event don't realize. But sure, Microsoft isn't lying or deceiving anybody here.
By and large, the people that got drunk in by the demos reaction to being told the reality is "But... WHY would they lie at such a huge level?".
Milo and Kinect have been forgotten by the at-large non-GAF crowd out there, but Microsoft sure wants to keep that reputation running!
I will say that I'm eating crow after saying Minecraft just wouldn't work with Hololens. I did not think they'd be capable of the scrolling action they showed, though I'm still sceptical of how useable it'd all be in actual practice. Either way, it's yet more proof that you should not judge the potential of something based solely on your own limited imagination!
True, they said it wouldn't be hugely different, but Jeff was still entirely positive about it. It's not like the FoV issue is being hidden or avoided. Numerous previews have mentioned it so I doubt people are going to buy it and be taken aback by it not being shown as intended. My thing is that it works, which tons of people here seem to refuse to be believe. I didn't notice him mention the lack of occlusion in the interview.
that just seems overly negative since it's extremely amazing tech that works completely as intended but just as one drawback. if that throws you off entirely, then I think that's being pretty cynical.
Even though Kinect/Milo are in way comparable to this. Literally everything shown at previews and in videos works. It's just the FoV. Nobody is denying the camera doesn't help and doesn't show off exactly how it would look once you put it on, but they're not fabricating the entire thing. Nothing indicates that they are.
BrokenIcarus
Member
So does Hololens really have it's own cpu and gpu to process everything, is it really a standalone device?
This and ironing out object occlusion. Certainly promising tech and I look forward to the future of it.
I'm assuming you can still use a controller of ipad to play the game.
Grinchy
Banned
I was pretty thrilled by the demonstration at first, too. Then it was pointed out that it's Microsoft, and they fake everything new that they are working on, and it all started to make sense. How could you not be annoyed by them continuing their tradition of misleading us about what their new technology is going to actually be?
They haven't faked anything. It works as intended. The only difference is the FOV isn't huge. We've all known that for months and any smart consumer should google something before dropping hundreds on an object
The demo they showed makes it look like an AR world opens up around the player. It simply does not work anything like that. They did nothing to temper expectations. Complete smoke and mirrors.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
So theyre only faking the FOV, the main visual aspect of the unit. So why not fake other things if the biggest thing is being faked right now?
The Boy Who Cried Wolf is one of the top fables for a reason.
So reviewing the previous HoloLens demos, I do see evidence of scene object occlusion. ie. an awareness of the stationary, basic objects in the room (cubes, tables etc.). Now whether this is "learned" when the user first walks into the room and emits the "pulse" or whether it was pre-programmed and loaded as a bit of trickery for the live demo, it's hard to say.
But I have still not seen any evidence of occlusion for moving objects (hands, heads or other body parts) or non-basic stationary shapes (lamps, plants, etc.). And only see evidence of issues from the earliest demos.
How far off is HoloLens from being a real product? If it's years and years away then these are probably things they are aware of and working on. But in the meantime they are going to great lengths to avoid these scenarios and personally I'd rather them be clear about the limitations, show it for what it is, and say "in the final version this will be different because ___".
But I have still not seen any evidence of occlusion for moving objects (hands, heads or other body parts) or non-basic stationary shapes (lamps, plants, etc.). And only see evidence of issues from the earliest demos.
How far off is HoloLens from being a real product? If it's years and years away then these are probably things they are aware of and working on. But in the meantime they are going to great lengths to avoid these scenarios and personally I'd rather them be clear about the limitations, show it for what it is, and say "in the final version this will be different because ___".
GuitarAtomik
Member
Was this impression posted? Gizmodo -I Played Minecraft With Microsoft's HoloLens, And It Was Pretty Awesome
He also of course mentions earlier in the article the limited FoV, it's a little front-heavy, and you see some "weird ghostly rainbowing effects in the corners of your vision". Doesn't mention anything about occlusion.
He also of course mentions earlier in the article the limited FoV, it's a little front-heavy, and you see some "weird ghostly rainbowing effects in the corners of your vision". Doesn't mention anything about occlusion.
PanicFreak
Member
Tons of positive things are said about HoloLens every time it gets shown, but here, we only talk FOV.
[Insert pictures of briefcase sized cell phone and iPhone 6 here]
[Insert pictures of briefcase sized cell phone and iPhone 6 here]
Pathfinder
Member
Well, FOV is important when it comes to overall usefulness of the tech, so it should be discussed. But at the same time, the FOV isn't always going to be as limited as it is. Some people are kind of hung up on that.
I don't know, at the very beginning of the show last night when they were recapping the day, Jeff specifically said that Hololens was 'not shippable' with that FOV. Maybe he backed off on that opinion by the end of the night, but I didn't watch the Microsoft guys on the couch yet.
The second the FOV is fixed, the hololens would immediately turn into a killer app for so many fields
After they fix the FOV and miniaturise... it becomes the most wanted device on the planet
Right now it's a tease of the future
It's awesome tech that they are completely misrepresenting.
On last night's Giant Bomb night show Kudo said that Hololens' final FoV won't be "hugely, noticebly different" from the prototype's. The huge FoV they showcase with the camera is a complete lie. The actual FoV is, while holding your hand at arms length, about 2 hands by 1 hand.
You could not look at a table and see the Minecraft world as they presented it.
Most say FOV is fine once you've used the device for a while and immerse yourself in what your doing. I just don't get some of the blanket criticism of the technology. There isn't anything out there to compare Hololen to. Until someone shows a better AR device with larger FOV its hard for me to be critical with out knowing the engineering limitations.
Steve Jobs demoed the original iPhone live onstage on January 9th, 2007. Six months later the general public was able to buy the device and it was everything it was demoed as.
Microsoft are demoing a vision of HoloLens that is years out and they are not making any kind of effort to point out that what you see is not what you are going to get if the unit ships any time soon. So they deserve all the criticism they are getting.
Microsoft were deliberately misleading the audience with their HoloLens demo.
HoloLens is a R&D project that "one day" may become a commercial product. Lets say 5 years at least, probably longer, probably much longer, possibly never; but it is speculative at this stage.
IF it releases, it will not be an accessory for Xbox One, this is a complete solution in its own right, its own little computer; and its immediate applications would be engineering and scientific, not games--for which it is ill-suited.
Augmented reality has a number of very difficult to solve problems which no one has really got a good grip on, these are:
* depth perception / focal length
* occlusion
* representing dark colors
Getting a display that does a reasonable job with depth perception is perhaps why the FOV is so small.
On top of all this, AR has all the problems of VR, themselves non-trivial.
Microsoft showed HoloLens at E3 to say "Hey, look, we are in the VR space as well, you don't need to think about Sony and Morpheus, Xbox One will deliver on this as well". In implying this they were lying, deliberately, for commercial reasons: to protect their future mindshare.
HoloLens is a R&D project that "one day" may become a commercial product. Lets say 5 years at least, probably longer, probably much longer, possibly never; but it is speculative at this stage.
IF it releases, it will not be an accessory for Xbox One, this is a complete solution in its own right, its own little computer; and its immediate applications would be engineering and scientific, not games--for which it is ill-suited.
Augmented reality has a number of very difficult to solve problems which no one has really got a good grip on, these are:
* depth perception / focal length
* occlusion
* representing dark colors
Getting a display that does a reasonable job with depth perception is perhaps why the FOV is so small.
On top of all this, AR has all the problems of VR, themselves non-trivial.
Microsoft showed HoloLens at E3 to say "Hey, look, we are in the VR space as well, you don't need to think about Sony and Morpheus, Xbox One will deliver on this as well". In implying this they were lying, deliberately, for commercial reasons: to protect their future mindshare.
I dunno, maybe try google glass?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REUan-O2uss
full fov?
And GG isn't even designed for AR.
bananafactory
Banned
I know it's Polygon but:
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/17/8788943/hololens-minecraft-demo
Kind of a shame since that was the highlight of their conference for me
http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/17/8788943/hololens-minecraft-demo
Kind of a shame since that was the highlight of their conference for me
I'm betting Hololens will be out in the next 18 months. I don't think there are deceiving anyone. This is the third event MS has brought Hololens to and let the public (media) try it out. Many have said "yes the experience is real, but the FOV is small". The demo on stage is done with a camera because their is no other way to it live in front of hundreds of people.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Mmmm. I think you're underestimating it there. I bet this thing launches within the next 2 years. Next year at the earliest, three at max.
Not totally sure if I'm misunderstanding this post, but GG isn't full FoV.
GuitarAtomik
Member
How about a camera attached to the presenter's head so we can see what he is actually seeing - a deck of cards size FOV that clips the hologram when it goes outside of the field of view? That does not seem so hard does it?
I hope I'm not being too obtuse but Microsoft themselves showed a better AR device with a larger FOV than Hololens, they even brought it out on stage, here's a photo of it:
There's a big discrepancy between what they're showing on stage at a major press conference, and the actual device that people are sharing impressions of. The simplest solution, given that their camera-rig and the headset are seemingly working in tandem, is project the rough FOV of the headset as visual information in the camera rig (either occluding what's not visible or a vision cone).
Pathfinder
Member
It's hard to take you seriously when you don't even realize that HoloLens is not related to Xbox One. It is a separate product.
I wrote: IF it releases, it will not be an accessory for Xbox One, this is a complete solution in its own right, its own little computer;
So I know that.
But I think the impression a lot of people have is that HL will be for XO. As I said its a R&D project. It is nowhere near being a commercial release. At this moment in time HL, as it exists, is good only for R&D and expo's