• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Fighting Games Weekly | June 29 - Jul 5 | Frauds Among U.S.

S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
kirblar said:
Really wish more people had Keits' view of payout structures.
Click to expand...

I like his system and scaling payouts in general, but I think the minimum payment threshold needs to be higher for an event as big as EVO.

IIRC, Keits pays something like top 10% of entrants, with the lowest payout basically being "get your entry fee back." I'm okay with that for a typical tournament that I can drive to that doesn't have Las Vegas tier costs for the rest of the experience. For EVO, though, anything less than a $100 prize basically doesn't seem worth it.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I like his system and scaling payouts in general, but I think the minimum payment threshold needs to be higher for an event as big as EVO.

IIRC, Keits pays something like top 10% of entrants, with the lowest payout basically being "get your entry fee back." I'm okay with that for a typical tournament that I can drive to that doesn't have Las Vegas tier costs for the rest of the experience. For EVO, though, anything less than a $100 prize basically doesn't seem worth it.
Click to expand...
Agreed on that being the minimum for this type of event. It's a big mental + to a lot of people if they can actually cash in an event like this.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
theprodigy said:
lmao

Palutena isn't even close to top 10 with customs, and lots of characters have super early kills "when used right"

the tendency of players to call the tools that allow low tier characters to actually become viable "jank" is amusing
Click to expand...
I didn't say what tier Palutena was. LMAO READING. Why quote me if you aren't even going to interact with my post? Have you not met your vapid snarky asshole posting quota yet today?

direct_quote said:
Lightweight kills at 70ish percent for the lightest characters with rage. Other than that it kills around 90-100 percent. I don't know how it's so terrible for her to be able to actually have a kill set up when a lot of characters can jab into up smash around the same percent. And having a kill setup around a grab makes it easier for someone to shut that out.
Click to expand...
A lot of characters can jab into up Smash for kills? Really? Which ones? I know of only a handful.

Palutena can get 70% kills by stage gimp combos without rage. You just never do them because you stopped progressing with your character.

SolarKnight said:
It's not even about tier placement but personal preference and matchup flexibility.
Click to expand...
There are very few characters that use different customs for different matchups.

FSLink said:
Like I said in the Smash topic, if you know how to fight Super Speed, it eliminates most of her approach options outside of her decent jab. She's a great character but she's hardly problematic with customs on.
Click to expand...
And like I told you before, that is complete bullshit. There are NO options that shut down a super fast dash with a hitbox that can be canceled into a jump, shield, dodge, invincible attack, or grab. Super Speed is arguably the best move in the game when used properly. The move is like Sonic's down B, but you don't need to charge it, it KOs, and it has more cancel options. Contextualize that.

UltraClarity said:
Bowser custom moves were also pretty broken several patches ago. Sonic fire spin dash and hammer spin dash have also been needed. Villager's exploding balloon up B has also been needed bit that is due to the switch of Villager's up B having to run on fuel now. Seems like balancing the default move also affect customs.

A lot of of the better custom moves seemed to have glitches associated with them (lightweight, Kong Cyclone, etc) so getting rid of platform cancel lag will do wonders of nerfing those moves.

The Olimar-Fox custom combo was also nerfed.

Heavy Skull Bash should also be nerfed and kill at 100% or something instead of 40%, even if ESam seems to be the only person that can land the move.

I'm fine if we move to a default or custom meta in the future, but I feel the reason for it won't be because customs were proven to be broken, instead the reason would be enough people complained about them so they get their way. *shrug*

Of course, EvilMrWizard will get this ball rolling again next year and legalize customs for Evo2016, and when that happens I will laugh.
Click to expand...
Bowser customs haven't changed since launch, to the best of my knowledge. Unless you count Dash Slam being inadvertently affected by the suicide nerf.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
Karsticles said:
And like I told you before, that is complete bullshit. There are NO options that shut down a super fast dash with a hitbox that can be canceled into a jump, shield, dodge, invincible attack, or grab. Super Speed is arguably the best move in the game when used properly. The move is like Sonic's down B, but you don't need to charge it, it KOs, and it has more cancel options. ]Contextualize that.
Click to expand...

With your characters maybe (not meant to be snarky, I can think of an option that can deal with it for most characters, but Bowser and Mewtwo I'm drawing blanks). And again, it's a mixup, you can shield or dodge or whatever, she still has to guess, and it's less reliable than higher tiers' approach options.

Karsticles said:
There are very few characters that use different customs for different matchups.
Click to expand...

EVO rules being default in many areas discourages exploration due to the no import thing, I've seen almost every character use different customs in different matchups. It could be argued that it's less depth that you can cover your bad matchups with a different custom sets, but that's a different argument.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
FSLink said:
With your characters maybe. And again, it's a mixup, you can shield or dodge or whatever, she still has to guess, and it's less reliable than higher tiers' approach options.



EVO rules being default in many areas discourages exploration due to the no import thing, I've seen almost every character use different customs in different matchups. It could be argued that it's less depth that you can cover your bad matchups with a different custom sets, but that's a different argument.
Click to expand...
Again, explain how you can BEAT, not just run away from, Super Speed in a reliable manner. Palutena doesn't have to guess. She can jump cancel into an invincible aerial if she wants to play it safe. Any balanced move has a COUNTER, and a COUNTER isn't just "run away".

Most characters don't use multiple sets of customs. The only way you could even argue that a significant number do is if you count reflector/absorption moves being swapped for attack versions in non-projectile Matchups just because it would be a wasted slot otherwise.
 
F

FSLink

Banned
You're ignoring that Super Speed still has a 3 second cooldown, so avoid the JC bair if she goes for the safe option, and she's forced to approach if she wants to kill. Anything else other than that option, you can usually hit out of, or shield her option. There's no move that covers every option, no. She's also much more vulnerable to projectiles since she no longer has Reflect Barrier. Ban Battlefield so she can't easily go for the Lightweight glitch.

Plus Quick Attack is still the best move in the game. :p


I disagree about the multiple characters lacking multiple options for customs.

Mario has all his cape variants, fireball, and FLUDD variants, as well as the option between normal upB and the killing explosive upB. There's a lot of variations here for matchups. Electric cape is a great disjoint killing move against characters like Marth.
Luigi has ice balls, Peach has her different sideBs and turnips, Yoshi has Egg Lay or Egg Launch as the most likely options to be used, Wario has his different waft and bike variants for matchups, DK has different hand slaps and charge punches, Diddy has his banana and rocket barrel options, Duck Hunt has the different can, Gunmen, and upBs, MegaMan with his different upBs and metal blades,...ROB has his different tops for different matchups, Miis, Palutena, Robin with the faster Thunder, Fire Wall.... I can go on, and I didn't even include any reflector/non reflector options.
 
B

Beats

Member
I posted this in the Smash 4 OT, but I figure some people might want to know here.

Here's some people doing really fast perfect pivots: https://twitter.com/washiga_yatta/status/588562134142955521

https://vine.co/v/eZhr0WO9MF1

It's very easy to do compared to doing it the normal way, but you might have to change your controls a bit. ZL/ZR are set to Attack/Special and C-stick is set to Smash attacks. You basically hold ZL/ZR and tap the left stick in the direction you want to move in and then tap the stick c-stick at the same time in the opposite direction.

edit: actually I'm not even sure if they're perfect pivots.
 
T

Tripon

Member
Birdie cosplay. D:
CJEGOTGWgAEJDLD.jpg
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/NeilGortz/status/617281480746733568
 
C

CountBlack

Member
vulva said:
How was the Waterloo tournament?
Click to expand...

reggie-choke.jpg



It was good though, not a lot of entrants. They started off with a round robin which was different, but I liked the change. Top 2 from each pool gets seeded into the bracket.

I finally beat Rawbertson after taking so many L's. I had to play the lamest I've ever played and it paid off. Practicing against Emperor Bohe's Honda Neutral jump stop sign actually helped me learn how to punish it properly.

I choked against LES in the Winners Finals, I came back from down 0-2, brought it all the way back to the final round, final seconds.. we trade on slides and his won lmao.
FANIfsansafas

Then I got bodied by 1up Van, he played the matchup the way Juri can dominate it and I had no answers, should've switched to Yun tbh.

I beat Catatonic, he really choked though. It was 3/5 and we both thought it was 2/3, so when he beat me 2-0, we shook hands then we found out it was 3/5, I ran it back all the way back and won 3-2. My cousin gave me #BASED coaching tips that really helped me exploit the way he was playing
fucc anybody that hates on coaching b

Even though I went Knicks vs Reggie Miller status, I'm happy with the way I played, I was able to play a lot more patient and less hectic which was usually getting me killed in the Honda matchup. Just doing too much instead of just sitting there and playing footsies/having to put up with doing an anti air that only does 30 damage but is very solid.
 
T

That Dude John

Member
Kadey said:
What does Gunslinger most resemble? Virtua on?
Click to expand...
The Gundam EX games if you've ever seen those imo.
Dahbomb said:
Darth Vader vs Dr Doom death battle.

Spoilers:
There will be Foot Dives!
Click to expand...
Another absurdly mismatched match-up. Once they started listing all the crazy shit Doom did, I knew it was over.
UltraClarity said:
Birdie cosplay. D:


https://twitter.com/NeilGortz/status/617281480746733568
Click to expand...

Tbh, I just want a not crazy lookin' black-dude and I'd be ok.
Legit cosplay, tho.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
FSLink said:
You're ignoring that Super Speed still has a 3 second cooldown, so avoid the JC bair if she goes for the safe option, and she's forced to approach if she wants to kill. Anything else other than that option, you can usually hit out of, or shield her option. There's no move that covers every option, no. She's also much more vulnerable to projectiles since she no longer has Reflect Barrier. Ban Battlefield so she can't easily go for the Lightweight glitch.

Plus Quick Attack is still the best move in the game. :p


I disagree about the multiple characters lacking multiple options for customs.

Mario has all his cape variants, fireball, and FLUDD variants, as well as the option between normal upB and the killing explosive upB. There's a lot of variations here for matchups. Electric cape is a great disjoint killing move against characters like Marth.
Luigi has ice balls, Peach has her different sideBs and turnips, Yoshi has Egg Lay or Egg Launch as the most likely options to be used, Wario has his different waft and bike variants for matchups, DK has different hand slaps and charge punches, Diddy has his banana and rocket barrel options, Duck Hunt has the different can, Gunmen, and upBs, MegaMan with his different upBs and metal blades,...ROB has his different tops for different matchups, Miis, Palutena, Robin with the faster Thunder, Fire Wall.... I can go on, and I didn't even include any reflector/non reflector options.
Click to expand...
Eh, almost every stage has platforms. DQ was using Smashville for Lightweight glitch.

Every 3 seconds doesn't mean much when Palutena is one of the better defensive characters in the game. She has an easy time getting those.

I feel like a lot of those customs have one best version. I haven't seen a non-default Diddy banana in a long time. Everyone uses the same Palutena setup aside from one move that gets debate, which is Reticle vs. Explosive Flame.

Beats said:
I posted this in the Smash 4 OT, but I figure some people might want to know here.

Here's some people doing really fast perfect pivots: https://twitter.com/washiga_yatta/status/588562134142955521

https://vine.co/v/eZhr0WO9MF1

It's very easy to do compared to doing it the normal way, but you might have to change your controls a bit. ZL/ZR are set to Attack/Special and C-stick is set to Smash attacks. You basically hold ZL/ZR and tap the left stick in the direction you want to move in and then tap the stick c-stick at the same time in the opposite direction.

edit: actually I'm not even sure if they're perfect pivots.
Click to expand...
Hum. GC controller doesn't have ZL, though. :/ Help me understand that?
 
L

Lulubop

Member
Not very in the know when it comes to the Persona scene but who did BananaKen beat at ceo? Was he like some ctier Japanese player, who despite being ctier is still better than all the us players? Or was he one of the best Persona players?
 
S

SloaneRisette

Member
Ok now that my family is home, the grind for Evo begins. Gonna need to get good because holy shit I haven't played any fighting game in like months

Started hormones today woooo happy new birthday to me
 
A

Anne

Member
Lulubop said:
Not very in the know when it comes to the Persona scene but who did BananaKen beat at ceo? Was he like some ctier Japanese player, who despite being ctier is still better than all the us players? Or was he one of the best Persona players?
Click to expand...

He beat Souji, who got 2nd in Persona at Arcrevo and was consistently one of the highest ranked Japanese Persona players in arcades, with a lot of wins under his belt. Souji has been considered one of the god players in BB for a very long time, when he came to NEC for BB he just did not lose. His skills carried over into Persona and he's held in very high regard, so it's a /huge/ deal to the American Persona scene BKen pulled it off right before Evo.

BKen and his crew of friends (my friends) have all been practicing and studying Persona hardcore for the last few months, and it's a pretty big payoff for Japan to have to consider Americans as threats.
 
B

Beats

Member
Karsticles said:
Hum. GC controller doesn't have ZL, though. :/ Help me understand that?
Click to expand...

Oh right. You can just change the shoulder buttons to attack and special.

edit: My setup is
X - Grab
Y - Jump
Z - Shield
L/R - Attack/Special

If you're holding down L/R you can shield with the grab button also. It's a little awkward attacking out of the pivot though since you have to let go of the shoulder buttons.
 
A

Anne

Member
Persona will be interesting. BKen, LK, and Bace are in super good spots to kill JP players, and people like Doonpa, Grover, Colpevole, Jona, etc all can do damage too. It'll be a fun year whether Americans can do it or not, but the very core Persona scene is all going to be there by some magic and it'll be a great moment for such a dedicated group.

Xrd though, pretty sure Xrd is just true despair. NA Xrd scene isn't prepared to deal with Japan and they're not entirely well put together to begin with from what I've seen. It'd take a lot more time with the game and for the scene to get somewhat cohesive, and the game only came out in December here so that's just not possible.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Also, IMO, the real value of customs was personalizing your character, not countering bad Matchups. I think Mario's fireball custom is probably the best idea of this. Default fireball is ideal for approaching, while the little version is ideal for harassing. Neither is necessarily better in any particular matchup, but different Mario players might have different preferences. If customs were all like that, it would be an incredible feature to have in the game.

Instead, most customs fall into one of two categories: straight upgrades, and counterpicks. These do not help the game. Fox, for example, gets two customs that really do not belong with him. His Falco laser upgrades is absurdly good because it lets Fox play a ranged interrupt style on top of having amazing rushdown. Falco gets the move as a tradeoff for not being Fox levels of speed and comboability. Fox basically gets the best tool Falco has while staying Fox. Why pick Falco?

Then, Fox gets the custom wind Up B, which KOs at absurdly low % on a good read. Mewtwo dies at 40% from this move. It isn't as ridiculous as Skull Bash, but it is pretty nuts. Why would anyone choose Fox Fire default over this?

Counterpicks are likely not good for the game. Mega man, for example, does not normally have a reflector. With customs, he does. Since no projectile character gains an anti-reflect through customs, this gives Mega man an inherently unfair advantage through customs. Samus, for example, can fight Mega man with defaults by powering up her Charge Shot, which destroys all of MMs projectiles. This creates an interesting dynamic between the two characters. It creates pressure. What the hell is Samus supposed to do against MM with a reflector?

Smedwicks said:
Ok now that my family is home, the grind for Evo begins. Gonna need to get good because holy shit I haven't played any fighting game in like months

Started hormones today woooo happy new birthday to me
Click to expand...
What are you playing?

I hope everything goes well for you.
 
T

Tripon

Member
Karsticles said:
Also, IMO, the real value of customs was personalizing your character, not countering bad Matchups. I think Mario's fireball custom is probably the best idea of this. Default fireball is ideal for approaching, while the little version is ideal for harassing. Neither is necessarily better in any particular matchup, but different Mario players might have different preferences. If customs were all like that, it would be an incredible feature to have in the game.

Instead, most customs fall into one of two categories: straight upgrades, and counterpicks. These do not help the game. Fox, for example, gets two customs that really do not belong with him. His Falco laser upgrades is absurdly good because it lets Fox play a ranged interrupt style on top of having amazing rushdown. Falco gets the move as a tradeoff for not being Fox levels of speed and comboability. Fox basically gets the best tool Falco has while staying Fox. Why pick Falco?

Then, Fox gets the custom wind Up B, which KOs at absurdly low % on a good read. Mewtwo dies at 40% from this move. It isn't as ridiculous as Skull Bash, but it is pretty nuts. Why would anyone choose Fox Fire default over this?

Counterpicks are likely not good for the game. Mega man, for example, does not normally have a reflector. With customs, he does. Since no projectile character gains an anti-reflect through customs, this gives Mega man an inherently unfair advantage through customs. Samus, for example, can fight Mega man with defaults by powering up her Charge Shot, which destroys all of MMs projectiles. This creates an interesting dynamic between the two characters. It creates pressure. What the hell is Samus supposed to do against MM with a reflector?


What are you playing?

I hope everything goes well for you.
Click to expand...

Fox Twisting Fox is a better kill move than his default B, however, it offers less control and travels less distance than his default up B. It's simply a worse move for recovery. I have seen Fox players in my region switch from Fire Fox and Twisting Fox depending on the match up and how they're feeling because they realized that Twisting Fox have caused them SDs. Twisting Fox is obviously a powerful kill move, but most people aren't good enough to use it to their advantage.

And it's interesting that you pick Samus and Mega Man since Mega Man's leaf shield is pretty much useless, and the reflector at least gets some use. However, Samus gets no play at all in default anyway, at least in my region (SoCal), perhaps in CO it's different. At least in customs, Samus also gains APEX up B which is a pretty good kill move, and she gains good spacing techniques in different missiles. Admittedly, I know little to nothing about Samus, customs or otherwise, so I will definitely coincide the Samus-Mega Man custom matchup is impossible for her. My argument is that Samus wouldn't be played otherwise in default, so I think that's a moot point.
 
V

vulva

Member
CountBlackule said:
reggie-choke.jpg



It was good though, not a lot of entrants. They started off with a round robin which was different, but I liked the change. Top 2 from each pool gets seeded into the bracket.

I finally beat Rawbertson after taking so many L's. I had to play the lamest I've ever played and it paid off. Practicing against Emperor Bohe's Honda Neutral jump stop sign actually helped me learn how to punish it properly.

I choked against LES in the Winners Finals, I came back from down 0-2, brought it all the way back to the final round, final seconds.. we trade on slides and his won lmao.
FANIfsansafas

Then I got bodied by 1up Van, he played the matchup the way Juri can dominate it and I had no answers, should've switched to Yun tbh.

I beat Catatonic, he really choked though. It was 3/5 and we both thought it was 2/3, so when he beat me 2-0, we shook hands then we found out it was 3/5, I ran it back all the way back and won 3-2. My cousin gave me #BASED coaching tips that really helped me exploit the way he was playing
fucc anybody that hates on coaching b

Even though I went Knicks vs Reggie Miller status, I'm happy with the way I played, I was able to play a lot more patient and less hectic which was usually getting me killed in the Honda matchup. Just doing too much instead of just sitting there and playing footsies/having to put up with doing an anti air that only does 30 damage but is very solid.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good time though. Was it at the autoshop?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
UltraClarity said:
Fox Twisting Fox is a better kill move than his default B, however, it offers less control and travels less distance than his default up B. It's simply a worse move for recovery. I have seen Fox players in my region switch from Fire Fox and Twisting Fox depending on the match up and how they're feeling because they realized that Twisting Fox have caused them SDs. Twisting Fox is obviously a powerful kill move, but most people aren't good enough to use it to their advantage.

And it's interesting that you pick Samus and Mega Man since Mega Man's leaf shield is pretty much useless, and the reflector at least gets some use. However, Samus gets no play at all in default anyway, at least in my region (SoCal), perhaps in CO it's different. At least in customs, Samus also gains APEX up B which is a pretty good kill move, and she gains good spacing techniques in different missiles. Admittedly, I know little to nothing about Samus, customs or otherwise, so I will definitely coincide the Samus-Mega Man custom matchup is impossible for her. My argument is that Samus wouldn't be played otherwise in default, so I think that's a moot point.
Click to expand...
Samus is viable. She got a win in top 8 at CEO. She isn't great, though. Boney here plays a great Samus.

Leaf Shield is good, just misunderstood. Play Namagem on GAF to find out.

Fox has two recovery moves. He can sac one.

Beats said:
Oh right. You can just change the shoulder buttons to attack and special.

edit: My setup is
X - Grab
Y - Jump
Z - Shield
L/R - Attack/Special

If you're holding down L/R you can shield with the grab button also. It's a little awkward attacking out of the pivot though since you have to let go of the shoulder buttons.
Click to expand...
Hmm. I have to mess with this a lot.
 
T

Tik-Tok

Member
CountBlackule said:
reggie-choke.jpg



It was good though, not a lot of entrants. They started off with a round robin which was different, but I liked the change. Top 2 from each pool gets seeded into the bracket.

I finally beat Rawbertson after taking so many L's. I had to play the lamest I've ever played and it paid off. Practicing against Emperor Bohe's Honda Neutral jump stop sign actually helped me learn how to punish it properly.

I choked against LES in the Winners Finals, I came back from down 0-2, brought it all the way back to the final round, final seconds.. we trade on slides and his won lmao.
FANIfsansafas

Then I got bodied by 1up Van, he played the matchup the way Juri can dominate it and I had no answers, should've switched to Yun tbh.

I beat Catatonic, he really choked though. It was 3/5 and we both thought it was 2/3, so when he beat me 2-0, we shook hands then we found out it was 3/5, I ran it back all the way back and won 3-2. My cousin gave me #BASED coaching tips that really helped me exploit the way he was playing
fucc anybody that hates on coaching b

Even though I went Knicks vs Reggie Miller status, I'm happy with the way I played, I was able to play a lot more patient and less hectic which was usually getting me killed in the Honda matchup. Just doing too much instead of just sitting there and playing footsies/having to put up with doing an anti air that only does 30 damage but is very solid.
Click to expand...

who won?

blackule, vulva you want in on this ultra pc business?
 
N

NEO0MJ

Member
Anne said:
Xrd though, pretty sure Xrd is just true despair. NA Xrd scene isn't prepared to deal with Japan and they're not entirely well put together to begin with from what I've seen. It'd take a lot more time with the game and for the scene to get somewhat cohesive, and the game only came out in December here so that's just not possible.
Click to expand...

You gotta believe!
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Anne said:
Xrd though, pretty sure Xrd is just true despair. NA Xrd scene isn't prepared to deal with Japan and they're not entirely well put together to begin with from what I've seen. It'd take a lot more time with the game and for the scene to get somewhat cohesive, and the game only came out in December here so that's just not possible.
Click to expand...

America should have stuck with BB
Kappa
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Poll
Fighting games; much loved but quickly abandoned. Do you play them more than 1 week?
Poll 2
68
2K
EverydayBeast replied
Street Fighter 6 Tops Over 3 Million Units Sold Worldwide
Sales-Age
18
1K
Saber replied
Virtua Fighter Reboot Could Be in the Works – Rumor
Rumor
47
2K
NT80 replied
Is Sony PlayStations Purchase of the EVO tournament one of their most strategic?
2 3
108
6K
T0minator replied
  • Poll
Best Arcade sticks
27
1K
Randall365 replied
Top Bottom