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Garl Vinland and Maiden Astraea, abandoned by God in a valley of aborted fetuses
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
I found it kind of sad, but in the context of the game it wasn't as tragic as everyone made it out to be.
I'd honestly consider Raime and Nadalia from DS2 DLC to be a sadder and more tragic version of that story:
It's harder to see the tragedy in Astrea's death and the VOD knowing that you're potentially doing it to prevent more and greater tragedies. With Nadalia you're
EDIT: Plague babies sre still fucked up though
EDIT 2: Realized that its not cool to drop Dark 2 plot in a Demon's thread. Spoiler tagged for convenience.
I'd honestly consider Raime and Nadalia from DS2 DLC to be a sadder and more tragic version of that story:
Astrea was a pure hearted saint who gave up her faith in the face of supreme tragedy and became a demon to help others. Nadalia is a fragment of a greater evil who exists for the sole purpose of finding a king to love and spread the dark. After a long journey in which she barely made it to the the king's castle, she finds that he's already dead, breaks down, and gives up her physical form.
When you fight Astrea she asks for you to leave them in peace and then berates you/invokes God when you don't; Nashandra (although it's not clear) has trouble distinguishing the player from the Old Iron King and treats you compassionately at first. When you start to destroy her idols, she calls on Raime and her possibly dead (at your hands) sisters to stop you, comming off angry and betrayed that you would do such a thing.
Vinland was Astrea's gaurdian/lover and would follow her to the ends of the earth. He abandoned his faith to continue jis duty and protect the woman he'd sworn himself to; Raime was a servant of Vendrick who believed in and had the power to dispel dark, but was labeled a traitor and exiled by his own king. When he found Nadalia, he knowlingly accepted her for what she was and devoted his life to protecting her in her crazed and broken state.
It's just my taste, but the fact that you don't have any reason or obligation to kill Raime & Nadalia (who are broken and abandoned), while you are forced by both the game and plot to kill Astrea and Vinlan (who have abandoned/been foresaken by God but are at peace) also a big reason why one seems sadder than the other.
When you fight Astrea she asks for you to leave them in peace and then berates you/invokes God when you don't; Nashandra (although it's not clear) has trouble distinguishing the player from the Old Iron King and treats you compassionately at first. When you start to destroy her idols, she calls on Raime and her possibly dead (at your hands) sisters to stop you, comming off angry and betrayed that you would do such a thing.
Vinland was Astrea's gaurdian/lover and would follow her to the ends of the earth. He abandoned his faith to continue jis duty and protect the woman he'd sworn himself to; Raime was a servant of Vendrick who believed in and had the power to dispel dark, but was labeled a traitor and exiled by his own king. When he found Nadalia, he knowlingly accepted her for what she was and devoted his life to protecting her in her crazed and broken state.
It's just my taste, but the fact that you don't have any reason or obligation to kill Raime & Nadalia (who are broken and abandoned), while you are forced by both the game and plot to kill Astrea and Vinlan (who have abandoned/been foresaken by God but are at peace) also a big reason why one seems sadder than the other.
just killing a deranged and broken woman for personal gain.
EDIT: Plague babies sre still fucked up though
EDIT 2: Realized that its not cool to drop Dark 2 plot in a Demon's thread. Spoiler tagged for convenience.
Newtype-001
Member
Star Falcon
Member
Yeah it was such a great encounter - Valley of Defilement was a particularly unpleasant area and it was warming finding such a tragic romance deep in the heart of it.
Hahahaha.... a hunter is a hunter!
Semantic Continuum
Member
I like to kill Astrea and have Vinland kill himself, but I can't remember the dialogue.
Isn't she sitting on a pile of gold ? It's a pretty ambiguous character. Maybe she appears as a saint because everything around her is wretched agony ?
Isn't she sitting on a pile of gold ? It's a pretty ambiguous character. Maybe she appears as a saint because everything around her is wretched agony ?
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I always feel sadness, then I remember she hangs around aborted fetuses swimming in a putrid lake. Anyone who does that is surely deranged as fuck and probably needs to be put out of their misery. -)
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
Man, what a terrific write-up! Sounds like an amazing story, as expected from the series. Damned sad that I never owned a PS3.
Star Falcon
Member
I'd agree in that Demon's Souls has a fair number of totally forgettable encounters that aren't a challenge at all (Dragon God, Leechmonger, Old Monk, Storm King all felt way undertuned, the Monk being very different though if it's a real person but for me it was an AI). I'd also say in general the Souls games have got harder over the years, with the DLC for Dark Souls and the Defiled Chalice bosses of BB being toughest stuff i've fought so far.
However there were still a lot of memorable encounters in DeS, more so for atmosphere rather than challenge (as is case with Garl Vinland). There were a couple bosses that really gave me trouble though - Flame Lurker (a nightmare if you try and do him at a low level) and of course the Man Eaters. False King is no walkover either though i think i beat him in a couple tries as it was the final thing i did before the endgame.
Yeah i think most fans are keen for a remaster of Demon Souls and Dark Souls (Artorias of the Abyss) on next gen. At the very least I expect we'll see them on PS Now at some point.
dodosaurus
Member
i love this boss. i like the theme and tone of it, i like the contrast of it with all the other areas. i'm listening to the music right now and have goosebumps. i personally like the area of tower of latira more but this is the best boss for sure.
i think its just the lighting that makes the dirt ground look gold.
i think its just the lighting that makes the dirt ground look gold.
Dragon1893
Member
Still my favorite Souls game, there's just something in it that hasn't quite been captured in the other games and this encounter is a good example of that magic.
silver.tongue
Member
I felt bad for having to kill her. Wish we could have saved her somehow.
Yeah, cool boss fight, the atmosphere is great.
But my fav boss in DeS is the Adjudicator. I know it's weird, but this boss is very special to me.
Oh yeah, me too, I kinda felt sick when I was going through the valley. That didn't prevent me from finishing the game tho x)
But my fav boss in DeS is the Adjudicator. I know it's weird, but this boss is very special to me.
Oh yeah, me too, I kinda felt sick when I was going through the valley. That didn't prevent me from finishing the game tho x)
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
Man, what a terrific write-up! Sounds like an amazing story, as expected from the series. Damned sad that I never owned a PS3.
atomic moth
Member
Maiden Astraea and True King Allant are high points of boss fights as storytelling. Each one has maybe a half dozen lines of dialog but that's enough to do some tremendous world building while also really personifying the themes of Demon's Souls. Whether greedy or altruistic, those pursuing power through the Demon's Souls are damned.
I'd say False King Allant was a mechanically sound Arch-demon, but I see what you're saying. I think the Arch-demons were less about gameplay, and more about storytelling. The final level of each world was usually a "capstone" that added to the lore. For example, with the Dragon God of Stonefang Tunnel and the Storm King of Shrine of Storms, we can see how the Scourge of Demons gave material form to what were once just superstitious beliefs held by the people who lived there. In the case of Old Monk and Tower of Latria, we get to see firsthand what brought down the queen. And so on. They're usually easier than what came before, and mix up the gameplay in new ways. I prefer the more consistent approach of later Souls games, but the encounters in Demon's Souls will stick with me.
ldcommando
Banned
Once upon a time when soul series games had good bosses.
Valley of Defilement went from one of my most hated places in all of videogamedom to one of my favorite by virtue of time and repetition. At first you are smothered by it, frustrated by it and most likely punished by it as you die over and over. The more you play it though the more you see intricacies and the little touches that make it great.
The whole place just feels nasty and dark and it successfully communicates the ideas of plague and disease through a screen as well as anything that I have ever encountered.
And then you reach that room. Garland is standing guard and Astrea begs you to leave. And you see the pitiful servants who don't even fight back and the plague babies wallowing in the filth and you realize that this place is even more terrible than you could have imagined.
I'm not sure I felt badly about killing Astrea at the time. While the situation seemed sad beyond compare the fact that her existence had been reduced to sitting beside a rotting pool festering with "those who had been thrown away" meant that despite her presence and noble spirit, things were still pretty awful in the Valley.
The whole place just feels nasty and dark and it successfully communicates the ideas of plague and disease through a screen as well as anything that I have ever encountered.
And then you reach that room. Garland is standing guard and Astrea begs you to leave. And you see the pitiful servants who don't even fight back and the plague babies wallowing in the filth and you realize that this place is even more terrible than you could have imagined.
I'm not sure I felt badly about killing Astrea at the time. While the situation seemed sad beyond compare the fact that her existence had been reduced to sitting beside a rotting pool festering with "those who had been thrown away" meant that despite her presence and noble spirit, things were still pretty awful in the Valley.
silver.tongue
Member
I don't know.... I still hate 5-1. Those damn giants, man. OHKO and you can't even dodge straight.
sublimit
Banned
You can completely avoid them though if i remember correctly.
I'd say False King Allant was a mechanically sound Arch-demon, but I see what you're saying. I think the Arch-demons were less about gameplay, and more about storytelling. The final level of each world was usually a "capstone" that added to the lore. For example, with the Dragon God of Stonefang Tunnel and the Storm King of Shrine of Storms, we can see how the Scourge of Demons gave material form to what were once just superstitious beliefs held by the people who lived there. In the case of Old Monk and Tower of Latria, we get to see firsthand what brought down the queen. And so on. They're usually easier than what came before, and mix up the gameplay in new ways. I prefer the more consistent approach of later Souls games, but the encounters in Demon's Souls will stick with me.
Oh was false king Allant counted as an Arch-Demon? Ok he was probably my favourite fight in the game so yeah I didn't mean to include him in that comment. But yeah I can't really disagree with your assessment, I get what From was going for, I just wish Dragon God, Storm King and Garland weren't so boring to actually engage.
It's worth pointing out though that I went from Bloodborne to Dark Souls to Demon's Souls in that order (Actually I only just beat Demon's Souls 2 weeks ago) so that probably took a bit of wind out of the Demon's' sail. Had I beaten it first maybe I would have appreciated it's Bosses more.
Joei
Member
The Valley is one of my favorite worlds in the game. Challenging, yet totally fair. And Maiden was the perfect end to it.
Solaire in Lost Izalith, to me, is nearly on par.
Solaire in Lost Izalith, to me, is nearly on par.
30yearsofhurt
Member
This was when Demon's Souls transcended greatness into something beyond a game.
Ah, the Giant Depraved Ones. Between them, the mosquitos, flies, plague babies, poisonous sludge, rotting wood, drizzling rain, and darkness broken only by the occasional distant speck of hellfire or red phatom waiting to slaughter you in the middle of the swamp... What's not to love! The Valley of Defilement practically writes its own marketing.
"Greetings from the Valley of Defilement! Wish you were here!"
silver.tongue
Member
You can? I always just try and kill those from very far.
Aren't you thinking about the ones on a small island that has some Ephemeral stones in the middles of the swamp?
I'm talking about the first one you face on your actual path.
benicillin
Banned
Yup, this is the boss fight that defines the Souls games for me. Nothing crazy in terms of combat mechanics but they haven't topped it since. Demons Souls was really rough around the edges, but even compared to the games they've made since it was ahead of its time in a lot of ways.
Interesting to hear your persoective. I played the games in order of release, albeit years later. Well, the Miyazaki ones. Right now I'm obsessed with DS2 (Scholar of the First Sin on PS4).
Regarding Allant, I'm not sure offhand if he's considered an Arch-demon, but the false king you fight in 1-4 isn't human and has the last demon's soul, so I presume he is.
Yeah, that's the one that plays with your perspective on a bridge, right? First it looks small like the others, then it gets close and you're like, "Oh shit," haha.
World 5 always seemed the most interesting to me in Demon's Souls. The backstory combined with the atmosphere made it very memorable along with how difficult it was in relation to the other worlds in Demon's Souls.
My favourite section definitely is 5-2 probably in all the Souls games. It still feels very unique to me. The constant poison, the sounds, reduced visibility and the sheer size of the area where even the 'shortcut' doesn't really feel much like one. I loved that there was a wandering red phantom that could catch you off guard if you decide to go off exploring, and finding Selen Vinland just sitting on a small island in the middle of the poison swamp was one of my favourite npc encounters.
Honestly Valley of Defilement is way underrated, everybody loves to talk about the Tower of Latria but for my money VoD has the stronger backstory and atmosphere.
My favourite section definitely is 5-2 probably in all the Souls games. It still feels very unique to me. The constant poison, the sounds, reduced visibility and the sheer size of the area where even the 'shortcut' doesn't really feel much like one. I loved that there was a wandering red phantom that could catch you off guard if you decide to go off exploring, and finding Selen Vinland just sitting on a small island in the middle of the poison swamp was one of my favourite npc encounters.
Honestly Valley of Defilement is way underrated, everybody loves to talk about the Tower of Latria but for my money VoD has the stronger backstory and atmosphere.
sublimit
Banned
Yeah you may be right,it has been a long time since i played the game. I think i may have used my bow for them but i also remember avoiding some of them.Maybe they were the ones on that island.
I don't really know the full backstory from the DS2 DLC, can you clarify the bolded?
I assume the calling on Raime and dead sisters is the boss fight against the Fume Knight with the sisters healing him around the edges, but what/when does this compassion from Nashandra come, and how is she related to the DLC?
PRjumpman124
Member
Wow, I really hope this gets remastered so I can check it out.
Newtype-001
Member
reading her lines get me teary eyed honestly its so sad.
zenosparadox
Member
Smug, dismissive and without a rebuttal. Classic!
As with most Demon's Souls bosses: Nice concept, wish it was more challenging.
I love the story in Souls games, but I also love the boss fights and replayability, all of those gimmick/puzzle/story bosses are only good in one of those aspects. If you take someone like Artorias, as already mentioned, he's stellar in every category.
You don't need pushover bosses to tell a story, and, judging by Dark Souls, Artorias of the Abyss and Bloodborne, Miyazaki seems to agree as well.
EDIT: But hell yes bring me a Demon's Remaster! Sony plsssssssss
Much more than just mechanically sound, it was an amazing boss fight. I'd pay good money to fight some of the best bosses in the series in Bloodborne, some sort of Chalice Dungeon DLC Pack. Just imagine fighting False King or O&S in Bloodborne, it would be so amazing.
I don't think the amount of work required would make it worth it though, it's not like they can charge $40 for a bunch of shitty dungeons with cool bosses at the end.
I love the story in Souls games, but I also love the boss fights and replayability, all of those gimmick/puzzle/story bosses are only good in one of those aspects. If you take someone like Artorias, as already mentioned, he's stellar in every category.
You don't need pushover bosses to tell a story, and, judging by Dark Souls, Artorias of the Abyss and Bloodborne, Miyazaki seems to agree as well.
EDIT: But hell yes bring me a Demon's Remaster! Sony plsssssssss
Much more than just mechanically sound, it was an amazing boss fight. I'd pay good money to fight some of the best bosses in the series in Bloodborne, some sort of Chalice Dungeon DLC Pack. Just imagine fighting False King or O&S in Bloodborne, it would be so amazing.
I don't think the amount of work required would make it worth it though, it's not like they can charge $40 for a bunch of shitty dungeons with cool bosses at the end.
Hell, nothing in the Dark Souls series has captured the feeling of the Nexus for me.
This kind of stuff is why Demon's is still my favorite.
Miyazaki still does easy gimmick bosses, both good (Micolash) and bad (Bed of Chaos). I think the gimmick bosses in Demon's Souls had the best lore, although the Executioner's Chariot in DS2 probably has the best gameplay.