BobTheFork
Member
I beaten Demon's Souls ~ 30 times and I still hate going into the blood swamps and the fetus pit.
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Garl Vinland and Maiden Astraea, abandoned by God in a valley of aborted fetuses
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
Correction: blood and excrement
...
Whaddaya mean bloody shit doesn't make it more appealing??
Yes, I do enjoy Micolash a lot actually, so they're definitely getting better.
I wouldn't mind Demon's "lore bosses" as much if
the final boss wasn't one of them. That was so disappointing. I get the point they were making, but still...
I'm just tired of how often people cite this as such an amazing and emotional fight when at the time I played it I felt nothing, which was more than a little disappointing after all the hype. Though I guess I'm not much better being an Artorias stan.
graffix13
Member
Valley of Defilement....man, fuck that place. I love it.
So much shit going on that just wants to kill you. I died so many times in there...and I thought it was bad BEFORE dying so much made it Dark Tendency. Those black phantom goblin giants killed me so many times. Not to mention getting jumped by that named black phantom in the swamp with a meat cleaver.
By the time I got to Garl/Maiden I cheesed it. I had to. I was DONE with that place.
It fucked me so hard I loved every minute of it.
So much shit going on that just wants to kill you. I died so many times in there...and I thought it was bad BEFORE dying so much made it Dark Tendency. Those black phantom goblin giants killed me so many times. Not to mention getting jumped by that named black phantom in the swamp with a meat cleaver.
By the time I got to Garl/Maiden I cheesed it. I had to. I was DONE with that place.
It fucked me so hard I loved every minute of it.
Not sure if already linked, but Roe's remix is also pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWxjBrrPvY
My favorite from him is Firelink Shrine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU06k6pYzyw
My favorite from him is Firelink Shrine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU06k6pYzyw
AgentOtaku
Member
goddammit!
Thanks OP, now I HAVE replay Demon's Souls again (>___<)
Thanks OP, now I HAVE replay Demon's Souls again (>___<)
I see the true final boss and climax of the plot as False King Allant. Everything afterward is falling action... An incredibly beautiful, haunting coda on the dunes of a forgotten land.
Wow, yknow when I played this I never gave it much thought. I just figured she was evil and needed to be killed or I wouldn't be there. Talk about a dumb driven killer, eh?
OP your post makes me want to replay the game again. I have it on PS3 and have been thinking about replaying it, but I kind of wonder if we'll get an HD remaster at some point. I mean Sony said they're down for churning some more of those out, right? And Bloodborne was a hit, so why not Demon's Souls? I suppose Atlus was the publisher in the states though. No idea how that would work now....
OP your post makes me want to replay the game again. I have it on PS3 and have been thinking about replaying it, but I kind of wonder if we'll get an HD remaster at some point. I mean Sony said they're down for churning some more of those out, right? And Bloodborne was a hit, so why not Demon's Souls? I suppose Atlus was the publisher in the states though. No idea how that would work now....
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
That's part of the beauty of it, no forced slow walking while someone talks to you through an earpiece, you decide how invested you'll be in the story, that makes replayability much better.
silver.tongue
Member
Yep. You go all confident and what you know really small Island with 3 really big giants.
Tough challenge even for veterans of the game.
Newtype-001
Member
im saving my thirst to replay for the remaster.
come on sooony
Ah, the Giant Depraved Ones. Between them, the mosquitos, flies, plague babies, poisonous sludge, rotting wood, drizzling rain, and darkness broken only by the occasional distant speck of hellfire or red phatom waiting to slaughter you in the middle of the swamp... What's not to love! The Valley of Defilement practically writes its own marketing.
"Greetings from the Valley of Defilement! Wish you were here!"
I loved the sounds those dudes made.
Ughhh! ooooaauh!
leatherhat
Member
I go in there all the time to farm ephemeral eyes. Just me, some fetuses and Black phantom Garl.
I can understand this. If you go in hyped, it could be disappointing. I still think most people will grow to appreciate it with reflection. When considered in the context of the valley as a whole, it's a tragically beautiful moment. In an interview with Miyazaki in the BB guide, he spoke about trying to capture the melancholy beauty of a heartfelt prayer. I think we see this in Vinland and Astraea. It's another reason why I like the Vinland-inspired Velstadt in DS2, as well. In the cutscene introducing Velstadt, you see him bowing toward the room where a mindless King Vendrick shuffles around for all eternity. It shows unwavering loyalty and unflinching faith.
Also is worth remarking how the willingness to help those forgotten on the valley of defilement transformed her soul to the most impure demon soul, according to the descriptions of the spells you obtain with that soul:
Death Cloud: 'Spell from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Generates a cloud of plague. It is natural that those who take in all that is impure are themselves the most impure of all.'
Relief: 'Spell from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Fully recover another by touching them. Though Astraea is the most impure demon of all, her works are equal to those of devine [sic] beings.'
Resurrection: 'Miracle from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Returns any Phantom near the caster back to their own world, granting them their living body. This miracle is a countersign of the corrupted former Sixth Saint Astraea.'
Death Cloud: 'Spell from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Generates a cloud of plague. It is natural that those who take in all that is impure are themselves the most impure of all.'
Relief: 'Spell from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Fully recover another by touching them. Though Astraea is the most impure demon of all, her works are equal to those of devine [sic] beings.'
Resurrection: 'Miracle from the Demon Maiden Astraea's Soul. Returns any Phantom near the caster back to their own world, granting them their living body. This miracle is a countersign of the corrupted former Sixth Saint Astraea.'
Good stuff! The question, though, is whether "impure" refers to her moral character, or the tangible qualities of her being. I still get the impression that Astraea, at heart, is a truly good person.
Vinland's sister had this to say: "I find something odd about this place. It brims with grime, but at once feels strangely pure." I think the "strangely pure" line suggests that whatever Astraea's intentions, her presence does have a positive effect on the valley.
The fact that the valley is still so unpleasant makes one wonder what it was like before Astraea and Vinland arrived.
I forgot to share a quick story. Ending spoilers ahoy!
So at the end you have disabled the ancient one (I think thats what it was called?) and you stand there with the Maiden in Black, ready to either finish it off or take your place at the new seat of power. I wanted to finish it off, but the Maiden in Black is standing in the way and says I should let her put it back to sleep. I'm thinking "Hell with that, let's crush this thing forever!"
Well, I try to get past her but she doesnt move. I try to shove her out of the way and the game takes that as an act of aggression toward her and suddenly I'm watching a cutscene where my hero strikes down the Maiden and then steps on her skull, pushing her face into the mud as she walks over her to take her place as the new big evil in the universe.
I sat there with my mouth open in horror, heartbroken at what I had done. Needless to say, I had to finish the game again to see the other ending.
Well, I try to get past her but she doesnt move. I try to shove her out of the way and the game takes that as an act of aggression toward her and suddenly I'm watching a cutscene where my hero strikes down the Maiden and then steps on her skull, pushing her face into the mud as she walks over her to take her place as the new big evil in the universe.
I sat there with my mouth open in horror, heartbroken at what I had done. Needless to say, I had to finish the game again to see the other ending.
What the --!
I honestly had no idea there were multiple endings in Demon's Souls.
The one you got sounds brutal.
What the hell. My mind is blown.
Hahahaha, I hate when that kind of thing happens, you can't really be mad at the game, right, the devs couldn't cover every possibility, but it's always disappointing anyway.
Neiteio pls
And Astraea soul is used to forge the best weapon of the game (imo).
The Bluebood Sword is simply amazing. And the description of it reinforces to me that at the end Astarea was a martyr.
The sword of true nobility, endowed with the essential power humans are born with, which increases its attack power.
The Bluebood Sword is simply amazing. And the description of it reinforces to me that at the end Astarea was a martyr.
The sword of true nobility, endowed with the essential power humans are born with, which increases its attack power.
I just realized I sounded sarcastic. But I was being sincere. I really, truly, honest-to-goodness did not know there were multiple endings to Demon's Souls. Or maybe I did at some point but didn't remember for some reason.
BrianRoyale
Member
Epic Name Bro really opened my eyes to this boss battle. I didn't really soak it all in, I did feel the tragedy of it, and guilt for killing her despite her being a good person. ENB really showed how good the design is, if you try to snip her Garl will go back and guard her so you can't. If you do get in some attack all the worshipers will go for you. I really liked this boss fight, really nothing much to it, but it's how it all comes together that blew me away.
Demon's souls still stands as my favorite game (could be cause it was my first), not the most mechanically sound of the bunch but damn if it didn't have the most fresh boss encounters.
Demon's souls still stands as my favorite game (could be cause it was my first), not the most mechanically sound of the bunch but damn if it didn't have the most fresh boss encounters.
Are you telling me that you only got/knew the "Good" ending??
Yeah, is hard to say what they mean, I suppose there are no straight answers to those questions, just our interpretations of the events. I think that is one of the reasons why Demons Souls is so memorable.
Ha, terrible, I didn't know about that ending till I starter reading spoilers from the game, at least you got the red stone of invasion. Also felt bad doing that ending, to stomp over the maiden, really like her, the music of the nexus and how she sometimes is playing with her legs on the steps of the nexus.
I don't know if I should spoiler tag or not but to be safe
The DLC of DS2 is about finding the crowns of other kings and by extension (but still optional for 2) killing their queens (all fragments of Manus). All the Queens represent a part of Manus, all feel some form of love towards their king (except maybe Elena?), and all exist to spread the dark. The one from this DLC is named Nadalia, and where Nashandra was a queen of want, Nadalia is solitude.
The next sets play after killing her idols, and the last when you kill the final idol. It doesn't tie into anything else as the DLCs are more or less self-contained stories
DBreakfast
Member
I think there's an implication that although she's trying to help, she may be making things worse. The fact that you can cast Death Cloud thanks to her soul would back this up. There's also the trail of blood leading from her to the pool of plague babies, implying that she gave birth to them.
Cool plague related trivia. In the game there is a weapon called the Baby's Nail. It's a dagger that can inflict the plague status (IIRC, only it and Death Cloud can do this). The description indicates that it's an assassination weapon used by women and children, so you assume that its name comes from the fact that children would use it. Then you meet Astraea. If you take a close look at the plague babies, you'll notice they have large, sharp nails sticking out of their arms, which is the real source of the dagger's name.
Given that the only sources of plague in the game come from the babies, Astraea's soul, and a dagger clearly named for her babies, I'm inclined to think that she's actually responsible for the plague in the first place.
More fun stuff. Her soul has a fourth use: forging the Blueblood sword. Its description mentions that it is "endowed with the essential power humans are born with." So the "most impure demon of all" is... a human?
I'm so torn on how to interpret this. Astraea being evil, or at least very misguided and corrupted makes a lot of sense in the world, but it also interferes with my stupid, crazy headcanon where everyone in the Nexus other than the blue phantom and Yurt are lying to you about everything.
But the Blueblood sword description alludes to being noble too:
The sword of true nobility, endowed with the essential power humans are born with, which increases its attack power.
DBreakfast
Member
Well the term blueblood refers to one of noble birth, so I had always just assumed Astraea had been born into the nobility before becoming a Saint. I don't think it's actually referring to Astraea's exploits as noble. Certainly nobody else seems to think she's anything but corrupted.
What's more interesting about the full description is that it either implies that the essential power of a human is either luck, or the willingness to capitalize on luck. I have no idea how to interpret that part without going completely off the rails though.
hydrophilic attack
Member
What I really like about the Valley of Defilement is how far it goes to broadcast its themes to the player. I have huge respect for level design that makes you, as a player, feel the same way as the player character surely would in that situation. 5-2 is extraordinary in this regard. Wading through the swamp is not fun. Nor should it be. Going through this area fills you, as a player, with a sense of dread and hopelessness that your character would surely feel too. The game mechanics reinforce the level’s oppressive atmosphere. You are filled with dread and hopelessness, because anytime you die, you have to suffer through it all again.
While most people talk about the first part of 5-2 (the swamp) the end (the shanty town) is great too. Once you finally get out of the horrible swamp, you are filled with a sense of triumph and confidence. You want to press forward so you can find and unlock the shortcut, which the level tantalizingly teases you with at the very start. But in doing so, it is inevitable that you will push forward too quickly, miss several of the deprived ones hidden around the various corners and, in short order, find yourself surrounded. If you survive this situation, the sense of triumph and confidence is suddenly replaced with a sense of foreboding and trepidation. You know that if you die here, you will have to go through the swamp again. You will have to deal with the giants again. You resolve to proceed through the rest of the level at a snail’s pace, so as to not be surrounded again. But the game starts challenging this resolve by introducing shamans, which will repeatedly poison you from afar. Do you push on to eliminate this threat and risk being trapped by enemies you ignored? Or do you continue to approach slowly, but risk running out of lotus to heal the poison? The shanty town portion of the level is not particularly difficult by Souls standards, but because it follows the swamp section, it is filled with significant gravity. The swamp portion and the shanty town portion beautifully reinforce one another.
What makes the level even more genius is that, in the end, the swamp is really not all that difficult to go through. Though not apparent at the start, all of the enemy giants can be stealthily avoided. The swamp intimidates you with its vastness. It will repeatedly poison you. It pits you up against the giants, some of the most frightening creatures in the game, while your mobility is severely restricted. The swamp’s presence is overbearing throughout the entire level. But in the end, you don’t really have to spend very much time in it if you don’t want to. The only time you have to go through the swamp is at the very start. And even there, small islands are dotted everywhere, while countless blob enemies will drop plenty of lotus to heal poison. After this introductory part, you (pretty much) don’t have to go back into the swamp if you don’t want to, as long as you stick to the boardwalk after the first fog gate, and stick to the shanty town in the final part of the level.
5-2 is the level I hate the most in all of the games I have ever played.
5-2 is the most accomplished level I have ever played.
While most people talk about the first part of 5-2 (the swamp) the end (the shanty town) is great too. Once you finally get out of the horrible swamp, you are filled with a sense of triumph and confidence. You want to press forward so you can find and unlock the shortcut, which the level tantalizingly teases you with at the very start. But in doing so, it is inevitable that you will push forward too quickly, miss several of the deprived ones hidden around the various corners and, in short order, find yourself surrounded. If you survive this situation, the sense of triumph and confidence is suddenly replaced with a sense of foreboding and trepidation. You know that if you die here, you will have to go through the swamp again. You will have to deal with the giants again. You resolve to proceed through the rest of the level at a snail’s pace, so as to not be surrounded again. But the game starts challenging this resolve by introducing shamans, which will repeatedly poison you from afar. Do you push on to eliminate this threat and risk being trapped by enemies you ignored? Or do you continue to approach slowly, but risk running out of lotus to heal the poison? The shanty town portion of the level is not particularly difficult by Souls standards, but because it follows the swamp section, it is filled with significant gravity. The swamp portion and the shanty town portion beautifully reinforce one another.
What makes the level even more genius is that, in the end, the swamp is really not all that difficult to go through. Though not apparent at the start, all of the enemy giants can be stealthily avoided. The swamp intimidates you with its vastness. It will repeatedly poison you. It pits you up against the giants, some of the most frightening creatures in the game, while your mobility is severely restricted. The swamp’s presence is overbearing throughout the entire level. But in the end, you don’t really have to spend very much time in it if you don’t want to. The only time you have to go through the swamp is at the very start. And even there, small islands are dotted everywhere, while countless blob enemies will drop plenty of lotus to heal poison. After this introductory part, you (pretty much) don’t have to go back into the swamp if you don’t want to, as long as you stick to the boardwalk after the first fog gate, and stick to the shanty town in the final part of the level.
5-2 is the level I hate the most in all of the games I have ever played.
5-2 is the most accomplished level I have ever played.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Theresa only 2 endings. A good and a bad one.
It's weird: I remember killing the true king, yet getting an ending where the maiden lulls the Old One back to sleep.
RE: the trail of blood from Astraea to the babies: I think the implication is that she wades into the waters to spend time comforting the plague babies, who are essentially aborted fetuses given strange life by the power of the valley. Note that the bottom of Astraea's dress is crimson red, as though she had walked through the water.
RE: Death Cloud: I see this as a Christ-like concept: Astraea is taking up the "cross" of the valley the sins, the pain, the suffering and sacrificing her own well-being to save others. But she is not a god, so it has a deleterious effect on her soul. Not on her moral character, mind you, but on the anatomy of her spirit. It is making her something more than human, something demonic. But at heart she is still human... If that makes sense.
RE: Baby's Nail: I think the idea is the weapon is fashioned from the claws of the Plague Babies. Nothing that necessarily implicates any foul play on Astraea's part.
I'm not sure what to think of the Blueblood. I think your interpretation that nobility refers to privileged lineage is correct. However, the description of the strength of humans suggests she also has noble qualities in the sense of mercy, love and compassion.
Ok, I'm confused, bruh.
Am I reading the entire ending for Demon's Souls in the OP? If so, isn't that one giant unmarked spoiler?
I feel like people should be losing their shit over this, especially because there are photos in the op of the final boss?
EDIT; apparently not the final boss. But one of the later bosses?
Am I reading the entire ending for Demon's Souls in the OP? If so, isn't that one giant unmarked spoiler?
I feel like people should be losing their shit over this, especially because there are photos in the op of the final boss?
EDIT; apparently not the final boss. But one of the later bosses?
This is spot-on.
The swamp is the most grueling stretch I've encountered in a Souls game. There's a reason it's 5-2, instead of 4-2 or 3-2 or 2-2 or 1-2. The reason is you're more likely to do the levels in order, so by the time most players choose to tackle 5-2, they will have already come so far that they won't be deterred from finishing the game. They will press onward through trials and tribulation that would bring most gamers, under most circumstances, to a screeching halt. The swamp is -that- miserable. Far worse than Blighttown in Dark Souls or the Forbidden Forest in Bloodborne, IMO.
The constant poison, movement penalties, phantoms and Giant Depraved Ones are only half the story. There is much to be said for the impenetrable darkness and lack of reference points in the swamp, and how they make it so easy to become lost. When you're lost, poisoned, struggling to move and beset by enemies that threaten to reset all your progress, it makes the struggle that much more real. Like you said, it makes you feel what the character must be feeling. The fear, the frustration. By the time you're done with it, you feel half-crazy, but that's why it works. It makes you feel like you overcame something truly awful. It makes that place feel believable.
Brilliant level design all-around.
Oh dude holy shit. I had no idea. That translation of her speech actually sounds right.
Wow, that is a huge twist on it that I never caught on to. Thanks so much for clarifying.
DBreakfast
Member
It's weird: I remember killing the true king, yet getting an ending where the maiden lulls the Old One back to sleep.
RE: the trail of blood from Astraea to the babies: I think the implication is that she wades into the waters to spend time comforting the plague babies, who are essentially aborted fetuses given strange life by the power of the valley. Note that the bottom of Astraea's dress is crimson red, as though she had walked through the water.
RE: Death Cloud: I see this as a Christ-like concept: Astraea is taking up the "cross" of the valley the sins, the pain, the suffering and sacrificing her own well-being to save others. But she is not a god, so it has a deleterious effect on her soul. Not on her moral character, mind you, but on the anatomy of her spirit. It is making her something more than human, something demonic. But at heart she is still human... If that makes sense.
RE: Baby's Nail: I think the idea is the weapon is fashioned from the claws of the Plague Babies. Nothing that necessarily implicates any foul play on Astraea's part.
I'm not sure what to think of the Blueblood. I think your interpretation that nobility refers to privileged lineage is correct. However, the description of the strength of humans suggests she also has noble qualities in the sense of mercy, love and compassion.
These interpretations definitely mesh better with the rest of the Demon's lore. I also think this changes what I think of the Baby's Nail. The knife itself is clearly not fashioned from the babies (the description mentions that it was treated with plague). That makes me think that perhaps before Astraea arrived, the babies' nails were being harvested as weapons, but now that Astraea is protecting them, people started using conventional knives doused with plague as a replacement.
Also, while everyone's gushing about 5-2, I want to say that it has my favorite trap of the entire Souls series. At some point, you'll notice the glow of an item on an island in the distance. Head out there and, in the distance, you'll see another island with an item. As you keep traveling out, following the breadcrumb trail of items, the islands get smaller and smaller until finally there's barely anything to stand on... and that's when a red phantom with a meat cleaver attacks. I really loved this trap because not only does it lure to to an incredibly unfavorable position, but if you want revenge, it's actually pretty hard to find your way back there. The glow from the items was the only real light source along this path, so it's easy to miss the path on return trips when the items are gone.
XANDER CAGE
Member
It's not really a spoiler when most of this stuff is so deeply buried in the game. So much of Dark Souls' "story" is based on analysis and conjecture that it's entirely possible to play through it without catching or thinking about any of this stuff.
Out of curiosity: Has anyone faced any PvP invasions in the Valley of Defilement? Do the invaders suffer the same movement penalties in the swamp? How did your fights unfold (as invader or the one invaded)?
Similar to the Looking Glass Knight in DS2, I think about how difficult it can be by itself, and then try to fathom adding hostile humans on top of it...
Similar to the Looking Glass Knight in DS2, I think about how difficult it can be by itself, and then try to fathom adding hostile humans on top of it...
hydrophilic attack
Member
"This manifestation of madness comes from a mind teetering on the very brink, but has a sane mind ever produced anything of true significance?"
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The evil ending is the better one! It has the better credits music, and you get the red soul sign and the beast demon's soul (200k souls).
Plus you watch your character step on the Maiden's limp body so coldly.... xD
I never cared for the Maiden so I find it funny. What I do find sad, is having to kill Sif, though. That was legit heartbreaking.
Yeah invaders get the same penalty. I killed a bunch of vaders and hosts there, just like any other level.
Plus, you'll make more use of those souls over whatever the maiden gave you anyway.
I would think invaders in the Valley of Defilement are at a disadvantage in a way. They'd be glowing red, making them stand out in the darkness in a way the host wouldn't, right? If so, might allow the host to get the drop on them.
Red Liquorice
Member
There hasn't been a boss with that kind of atmosphere since imo. The music is just exceptional, and Souls has some great boss themes.
While the Maiden Astraea theme is great, it's not even in my Top Five. That just goes to show the caliber of the Demon's Souls OST.
You have other amazing pieces, such as:
Adjudicator
Armor Spider
Dragon God (picks up at 0:35)
Penetrator/Tower Knight
And of course the incredible main theme and its rendition in False King Allant.
Possibly the best horror soundtrack ever, IMO.
The Last Wizard
Member
Miyazaki showing that Ueda admiration.
Demon's is easily the best game in the series for me, everything was on point and it came out at the right time.
Demon's is easily the best game in the series for me, everything was on point and it came out at the right time.
The Xtortionist
Member
I find subversion to be wonderful in games, and Astraea and Garl Vinland are incredible examples of that. After slogging through world after world, taking out giant enemy after giant enemy, the player is faced with a petite maiden and her reluctant protector who simply wish to be left alone. It defies all expectations in a game that sells itself as a hostile David vs. Golaith type of affair, and makes a huge impact as a result. And all that is just from a gameplay perspective - the lore aspects of that fight run deep and may even make the player reconsider their own purpose in the world.
Masterful stuff that hasn't yet been matched in another Souls game.
Masterful stuff that hasn't yet been matched in another Souls game.