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Garl Vinland and Maiden Astraea, abandoned by God in a valley of aborted fetuses

Neiteio

Member
How's that for a title, eh?

So I've been enjoying Dark Souls 2 -- an excellent game, deserving of the Souls name. And one of the bosses, Velstadt the Royal Aegis, reminds me of Garl Vinland from Demon's Souls. Like Vinland, Velstadt wears stylish armor and wields a massive hammer... and is endlessly loyal to the one he protects.

I've talked before about how much I admire the Valley of Defilement in Demon's Souls, and Vinland and Astraea are a big reason why... To reach them, you must slog through three levels of pure misery. Seriously, this is one of the most oppressive worlds in videogames. It's so dark that you can hardly see more than 10 feet in front of you. You're poisoned and popping antidotes constantly as you wade through the blood and excrement. Your character suffers movement penalties that don't affect any of your enemies. When you're out of the swamp, you're trying to navigate a complicated tangle of rotting wood, teeming with trolls. And be wary of perspective — that Depraved One that looks bite-sized off in the distance might be much, MUCH bigger than you think. And the mosquitoes... Gah!

At the end of it all, you arrive at a toxic lake teeming with Plague Babies. An earlier archstone description reads: "This damp valley is the resting place of those who have been thrown away." It's not hard to imagine what these babies are:

plague-baby.jpg


Tending to the babies is the Maiden Astraea. She's a striking sight — a bright white silhouette sitting on the shoreline, ethereal in her beauty. According to another archstone description: "Once a Sixth Saint, Astraea lived with those awaiting death in the Valley of Defilement. She pledged herself to a demon's soul rather than a cruel God to ease the pain of the people there."

I find this concept so beautiful after everything you've experienced in the Valley of Defilement. It's a very human concept: If there is a God out there, why does he allow us to suffer? Everyone wonders this when pondering the meaning of life and the possibility of a higher power. Astraea represents alienation from God, and takes it upon herself to relieve the suffering of the lepers in society.

So naturally... you have to kill her.

It turns out that the unconditionally loving Astraea has a demon's soul. She pleads with you to leave her and her people alone:

"Leave us, slayer of demons. This is a sanctuary for the lost and wretched. There is nothing here for you to pillage or plunder. Please, leave quietly."
Her bodyguard and possible lover, Garl Vinland, does not want to fight you, either. He stands cautiously on the narrow ledge leading to Astraea. All he is concerned about is her safety. It's an incredibly sad scene... A man nervously trying to save the woman he loves from the murderer at their doorstep. As Vinland says:
"You abandoned us long ago -- what right do you have? We live humble lives... Leave us be!"

And when you kill Vinland, and go after Astraea:
"This is our home. We have done no harm to you... Dear God, have mercy. Is not your abandonment of us punishment enough? How long must we weather this cruel fate? Cruel Lord… What more can you possibly take from us? Dear Lord… You are too cruel. You have abandoned us... Is that not punishment enough?"
I've never felt more guilty in a videogame. Here is this woman who has dedicated herself to the victims of the world... and here you are, plunging your sword into her, a confirmation of the world's cruelty. Alternatively, she will commit suicide. For most people, this will be one of the last bosses they play, since it's in 5-3. It really casts a shadow over everything you've accomplished up to that point.

So what did you think of this scene from Demon's Souls? At the time it really blew me away. It was -not- what I was expecting after all of the previous boss battles. Sif the Great Grey Wolf limping along in Dark Souls 1 was also affecting, but I don't think anything in the Souls series has quite topped Vinland and Astraea for pure poignancy.

tumblr_mmj369gswx1s9i8bjx4.jpg


Demon's Souls remaster for PS4, pls
 

VertPin

Member
God, Demon's Souls was amazing in atmosphere. Really hoping for a remaster. Bloodborne also had a top notch atmosphere :D
 

myco666

Member
One of the greatest boss fights ever made. The music, dialogue and location just come together so beautifully. Demon's Souls had overall great atmosphere but Maiden Astrea was just something else.
 
J

Jotamide

Unconfirmed Member
I remember cheesing the hell of that fight. The Valley of Defilement was a hard world in an already hard game. Demon's is the only Souls game I've beaten. The open-ness of Dark never grabbed me the same way.
 

Jombie

Member
If I could ask Miyazaki anything, it would pertain to some of the themes in these games -- namely that of human degradation and loss of humanity. Beyond all the monsters, knights, and swords -- there's a real honestly in his games that's both ugly and beautiful.
 
When I got there I saw a few dozen messages on the ground, most of them read "my heart is breaking" yeah that was pretty fucked up and in my top 3 souls series moments for sure.

It was disturbing to me that the entire place was the outcasts' home too. So disgusting and pitiful ugh what a great game
 

ramyeon

Member
I couldn't help myself and read this despite not having played Demon's yet. I need a PS4 remaster, I need to experience this game :(
 

biteren

Member
one of my favorite boss battles ever, not really anything to do with the fight itself but more about the going ons
 

Neiteio

Member
one of my favorite boss battles ever, not really anything to do with the fight itself but more about the going ons
Yeah, mechanically it's a simple fight. Vinland has the same capabilities as the player — nothing extraordinary. The trick is getting him to drop his guard, which you do by getting in his personal space and baiting his attacks. But it's the context that makes it so powerful.

And while it was touching in the moment, this encounter has actually become more poignant the more I've thought about it. It's like the distance from my conquest of Demon's Souls has made me think about the true implications of my actions.

It's a battle that grows more brilliant with time and reflection.
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah great area and as has been said it wasn't the fight itself that was great but the history/reasons why. Valley Of Defilement and Tower Of Latria are two of the reasons I still prefer Demons Souls over any of the other Souls games (which of course are still amazing)
 
Its part of the reason why demons is my favourite.

When she says this it always hurts. T.T

This is our home.
We have done no harm to you.
Dear God, have mercy.
Is not your abandonment of us punishment enough?
How long must we weather this cruel fate?
Cruel Lord… What more can you possibly take from us?
Dear Lord… You are too cruel.
You have abandoned us, is that not punishment enough?
 

Neiteio

Member
They need to remaster this already. I want to play it again on Ps4.
Incorporate new content, like Dark Souls 1's Prepare to Die Edition. Improve the lighting, etc., like Dark Souls 2's Scholar of the First Sin. 1080p, 60 fps, AA. "Experience the beginning of the Souls series." A Demon's Souls remaster/remake would be an amazing exclusive for the PS4 and a perfect counterpart to Bloodborne.

There's certainly demand for it. Shu — make it so!

Garl Vinland's voice is so soothing
Yeah, and while he sounds courageous, I think he's masking a note of panic. He just wanted to protect the most loving and merciful woman in the world.

Miyazaki, y u make me do dis?
 
Fight fell completely flat for me. By the time I finished valley of defilement I was in straight up murder mode. Should have set up camp somewhere else Astraea
 

akira28

Member
Maiden Astray

I dont trust her story though. Seems like she's perpetuating the suffering, setting herself up as a demi-god of the valley. I bet she's as corrupt as her surroundings.
 

Bl@de

Member
The Valley of Defilement with the Vinland/Astraea Fight (along with music, speech, fight layout) elevate Demon's Souls to the top of the franchise and make it the Game of the Generation (for me). Amazing atmosphere and one of the best worlds in video games.
 

Hastati

Member
The amazing thing about these games is how they are participatory tragedies, with one of the more powerfully tragic (and ironic) elements being that the majority of players never know who they are killing or why, and why killing them is so sad.

It's only when you dig deeper that you get hit with immense feels (there are reversals as well, characters that appear good and end up suspicious like Targray in DS2).

Sif in DS is so depressing, only boss I remember fighting in a game that becomes weaker the more you fight him to the point where he can't really hurt you, and you basically have to put him down after he's waited an eternity for a master that won't return.

Or the Fair Lady/Queelan, who doesn't know that you are Queelag's murderer, and who you can slowly nurse back to near complete health by spending a massive amount of humanity

...it's a good thing you have to root around for most of the narrative, I don't think I could play otherwise.
 

Neiteio

Member
Fight fell completely flat for me. By the time I finished valley of defilement I was in straight up murder mode. Should have set up camp somewhere else Astraea
Ha, I can see this happening. Valley of Defilement is a maddening exercise in pain and frustration. An incredibly well-crafted and thoughtfully calibrated one, mind you. Miyazaki at his most cruel. I wouldn't blame you for feeling numb at the end of it all!

Maiden Astray

I dont trust her story though. Seems like she's perpetuating the suffering, setting herself up as a demi-god of the valley. I bet she's as corrupt as her surroundings..
Are you referring to this line by Garl's sister, Selen?

I heard an unflattering rumour about Saint Astraea. Have you met that herb-peddling woman? She claims that Saint Astraea is herself a Demon. That woman has no reason to lie. Surely she must be mistaken.
I don't think that implies Maiden Astraea is bad. It just speaks to the fact she is, technically, a demon by the time you meet her. But she is using the power of the demon's soul to comfort the people of the valley. Therein lies the moral dilemma...
 
The most memorable scene for me...I stood there for a bit since I knew a was about to feel guilty for what I was about to do. Left a strong impression on me.
 

akira28

Member
Ha, I can see this happening. Valley of Defilement is a maddening exercise in pain and frustration. An incredibly well-crafted and thoughtfully calibrated one, mind you. Miyazaki at his most cruel. I wouldn't blame you for feeling numb at the end of it all!


Are you referring to this line by Garl's sister, Selen?


I don't think that implies Maiden Astraea is bad. It just speaks to the fact she is, technically, a demon by the time you meet her. But she is using the power of the demon's soul to comfort the people of the valley. Therein lies the moral dilemma...

that's the thing though, souls games always play with what you see and makes you doubt it. They're no stranger to the thematic twist. So having a beautiful white saint actually be a dark demon, that we never get to see, but just look at the valley of defilement. She's supposed to be easing suffering, but it doesnt look like much is being done. What are they being punished for, that she asks if being abandoned isn't enough, that death must follow.

there's no reason to believe what you read, or to doubt what you see. Two punished souls in a land of corruption and decay. Nashandra had a beautiful form and a demonic one. I think there's something they decided not to depict with Maiden Astraea.
 

Neiteio

Member
that's the thing though, souls games always play with what you see and makes you doubt it. They're no stranger to the thematic twist. So having a beautiful white saint actually be a dark demon, that we never get to see, but just look at the valley of defilement. She's supposed to be easing suffering, but it doesnt look like much is being done. What are they being punished for, that she asks if being abandoned isn't enough, that death must follow.

there's no reason to believe what you read, or to doubt what you see. Two punished souls in a land of corruption and decay. Nashandra had a beautiful form and a demonic one. I think there's something they decided not to depict with Maiden Astraea.
You point to the sad state of the valley as evidence she isn't helping, but what if the valley was even worse before she arrived? And I think her line about punishment is not an admission of sin, but a presumption that God is either upset for reasons they don't understand, or apathetic to their plight.

I think this is a case where the good person really is good, and there's no catch. But I think there's room for other possibilities. That's why the Souls games have the best lore.
 
Im not sure i could choose a favourite between Demons Souls / Dark Souls / Bloodborne (GTFO with any suggestions of DS2), because the atmosphere in all 3 of them is off the scale. VoD was a level i had written off as woeful design at first until i really sunk my teeth into it. Its an amazing, oppressive, claustrophobic fucked up map and that boss fight was amazing. At first i didnt even realize what was going on in the VoD, it was only until i read about the babies and their relation to Astrea i realized just how screwed in the head Miyazaki is. Also just completed the Arianna sidequest in Bloodborne the other day, this guy seriously has issues haha
 
This fight sounds amazing... Done properly. I, uh, did not. I should preface this story by stating that I am (was?) a terrible goddamn scrub who depended entirely on Thomas to even get this far. I had way too much health, is my point.

I fucking slipped and fell from the top of the descent to Fetus Lake. I lived, but was immediately mobbed by the terrible little bastards. I started rolling around as hard as I could, swallowing herbs by the bushel, and picking off enemies as I was able.

Then I caught a hammer to the back of the dome. I had managed to be completely unaware of the impending bossfight, and had fallen back too far from the lake. If either of them spoke, I missed it somewhere in the squishy noises and my screaming. I ran halfway back up the path that I was supposed to take down, and unloaded magical rage down Garl's throat.

And, no soul. So I gawk around for a minute, spot the EXTREMELY irate lady, and gank her. Woo, level complete!
 

Zaventem

Member
Garl's armor is still the coolest, they tired to replicate it in Dark Souls but it came like a poor attempt imo. And the entirety of this level freaked me the fuck out. Yeah the framerate lead to some people not liking said area but i still thing both VoD and Blighttown are some of the most atmospheric areas ever made in videogames.
 

Hedge

Member
The saddest thing is how the valley of defilement made me feel so ill, that I stop playing the game. What a game.
 

Neiteio

Member
Im not sure i could choose a favourite between Demons Souls / Dark Souls / Bloodborne (GTFO with any suggestions of DS2), because the atmosphere in all 3 of them is off the scale.
DS2 is fantastic so far. Just completed Undead Crypt, which was incredibly tense at times. I could totally understand someone favoring DS2. It complements the other titles well with its own unique, but still distinctly Soulsian flavor.

But yeah, I'd struggle to pick a favorite from the four. I like to think of the Souls/borne games as one epic experience.
 

sublimit

Banned
Astraea and Vinland are two of my favourite characters ever.There's so much depth in them yet with so little information given about them when compared to other video game characters who talk for hours and yet they remain shallow. That whole encounter is one of the most emotional scenes in Video Game history for me.

You have a heart of gold OP.
 

Nesther

Member
I don't think a Demon's Souls port would work without a serious overhaul in terms of how the World Tendency works.
And that's tricky, because simply removing it causes issues, as WT allows for alternate scenarios occuring.
So either streamline the WT to make changing it a non-issue or go through the entire game and fixing all spots to work without WT, which would be a lot of extra work.

I can't see them releasing a straight up port and leaving this system as it is.
 
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