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Germany reinstates Border Controls - Temporarily exits from Schengen

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It's not a lazy answer. People bring up young men coming as some kind of dog whistle against the idea of them being refugees, when in fact the reason it's young men first is because they are more able to travel and won't be as burdened as families. The first wave is always the more able but people act like idiots and pretend it's only young men and it will only ever be young men,

Turning off their brains and parroting whatever garbage they've read in their go to right wing piece rag.
I think it is a very lazy answer, because you make it a black and white issue, while a lot of people can see the grey areas in this situation. It is not a choice of letting everyone in or letting them die. It is a choice of how many we can support here, how we are letting them in (I am for closing the borders and having families come over directly from the region, so they arrive safely, don't have to pay human traffickers - using that money to fund themselves here if possible - and don't have to break up families) and where they should stay.

It was on a "if the shoe fits" principle.

I don't have the answers. But I do know that as long as we (EU) can, we should make sure that those fleeing from actual persecution have a safe haven, and the burden should be evenly spread.
And here is the issue: what is actual persecution here? Are they persecuted in Turkey? No. But that country should not have to carry the burden by itself. But then how do you spread that burden evenly, and why are some countries in the region not participating in that also.
 

shaki123

Member
It was on a "if the shoe fits" principle.

I don't have the answers. But I do know that as long as we (EU) can, we should make sure that those fleeing from actual persecution have a safe haven, and the burden should be evenly spread.

Open your eyes. We cannot. The people don't want these immigrants to come to our countries. Polls say enough. Where is the people's voice in this? We don't want it. No room, no money and no return of investment (schooling, food etc). May sound harsh but it's the damned truth.
 

Agram

Member
Open your eyes. We cannot. The people don't want these immigrants to come to our countries. Polls say enough. Where is the people's voice in this? We don't want it. No room, no money and no return of investment (schooling, food etc). May sound harsh but it's the damned truth.
This is true.
I'm scared for my country (Croatia). People here want to help because they've been through that hell in the 90s but this is getting out of hand. There are just too many of them, they don't want to play by the rules (they refuse give any IDs), they often fight with each other over trains or buses. They have been treated very nicely here, I'd say Croatia has been the kindest but people are not tolerating their behavior. Croats are preparing for protests and just don't feel safe.
I want to help, we all want to help, but the way they refuse our rules (along with theories about 80% of them being men) makes the people scared for their own country and I fear there will be huge incidents.
 
Open your eyes. We cannot. The people don't want these immigrants to come to our countries. Polls say enough. Where is the people's voice in this? We don't want it. No room, no money and no return of investment (schooling, food etc). May sound harsh but it's the damned truth.

Am I not part of the people?
 
Open your eyes. We cannot. The people don't want these immigrants to come to our countries. Polls say enough. Where is the people's voice in this? We don't want it. No room, no money and no return of investment (schooling, food etc). May sound harsh but it's the damned truth.

Belly-feels before democracy, rational thought or logistical reality.

That's modern politics.
 
This is true.
I'm scared for my country (Croatia). People here want to help because they've been through that hell in the 90s but this is getting out of hand. There are just too many of them, they don't want to play by the rules (they refuse give any IDs), they often fight with each other over trains or buses. They have been treated very nicely here, I'd say Croatia has been the kindest but people are not tolerating their behavior. Croats are preparing for protests and just don't feel safe.
I want to help, we all want to help, but the way they refuse our rules (along with theories about 80% of them being men) makes the people scared for their own country and I fear there will be huge incidents.

That's the EU for ya. You got bad luck by ending up as a hotspot, other countries want to leave you in the shit without help. As evidenced by many of our posters here, who loudly complain about having to help you. Including the one you're responding to.
 

shaki123

Member
Am I not part of the people?

You are. But you are in a a very large minority. The polls don't lie. We don't want the refugees. These people don't care about our standards. They will cost us tons of money (which we will never get back) and they will continue to cause problems. I am sorry but my daughter is soon going to school near a place where these refugees are being held. She finds it scary, like the rest of the children at school. Think about that. When I open my door it's like I am on vacation in Syria. No thanks brother.

This is my country. Our country. Our Europe. Why is our voice not heard? What in the actual fuck is wrong here in Europe for fuck sake.
 

TCRS

Banned
Belly-feels before democracy, rational thought or logistical reality.

That's modern politics.

what exactly is rational about taking in thousands of undereducated refugees, most of whom aren't even fleeing from war, who will have a hard time in europe and probably won't be a net benefit to society? and how is it undemocratic when most people don't want more refugees?

if anything the bleeding heart narrative is much more similar to belly-feels.
 
You are. But you are in a a very large minority. The polls don't lie. We don't want the refugees. These people don't care about our standards. They will cost us tons of money (which we will never get back) and they will continue to cause problems. I am sorry but my daughter is soon going to school near a place where these refugees are being held. She finds it scary, like the rest of the children at school. Think about that.

This is my country. Our country. Our Europe. Why is our voice not heard? What in the actual fuck is wrong here in Europe for fuck sake.

Won't somebody please think of the children! The anti-immigration faction had the same song and dance here, but then it turned out crime didn't rise near refugee centers. But no matter, facts are just a setback!

Your voice is not being heard because you want to breach human rights treaties. You'll get your tightening of immigration if you really are the majority (don't be so sure), but sending people to death is not the same as voting for the tax on tulips.
 

shaki123

Member
Won't somebody please think of the children! The anti-immigration faction had the same song and dance here, but then it turned out crime didn't rise near refugee centers. But no matter, facts are just a setback!

Your voice is not being heard because you want to breach human rights treaties. You'll get your tightening of immigration if you really are the majority (don't be so sure), but sending people to death is not the same as voting for the tax on tulips.

You are crazy brother. Breaching human right treaties? If we want to close our borders, we close em. That's all there is to it. Also, polls in Germany and Holland have all said the same. So, what else do you want huh? I can understand you don't like it, but it is the goddamned truth. The truth is hard to accept eh? We have no hand in the death of these people. Don't feel guilty that the majority doesn't want them.

Also. You talk about war-refugees? Why the shit do they travel all the way to Holland? They passed Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland. Why are they in Holland or Germany for that matter. They pass all these great, great countries and still decide to go even further because "the war is so terrible".

This is not called a war refugee, but an economical refugee. They should be refused at all costs. Always.


Real refugees should go to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and all these other extremely rich countries. Same religion, same language, same culture, their responsibility.
 

Lime

Member
The anti-humanism, misinformation, and fear-mongering in this thread are getting too much for me. I'm out.
 
You are crazy brother. Breaching human right treaties? If we want to close our borders, we close em. That's all there is to it. Also, polls in Germany and Holland have all said the same. So, what else do you want huh? I can understand you don't like it, but it is the goddamned truth. The truth is hard to accept eh? We have no hand in the death of these people.

Also. You talk about war-refugees? Why the shit do they travel all the way to Holland? They passed Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland. Why are they in Holland or Germany for that matter. They pass all these great, great countries and still decide to go even further because "money awaits and fortune awaits".

This is not called a war refugee, but an economical refugee. They should be refused at all costs. Always.


Real refugees should go to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and all these other extremely rich countries. Same religion, same language, same culture, their responsibility.

It's really ridiculous how you try to transparently define away refugee status for being in some place like Croatia, that cannot handle such numbers. You simultaneously throw both fellow EU members and the refugees under the bus. It's no wonder the EU cannot work when it's so full of selfish and callous people. You'd probably fucking try to steal my bike if we went for a beer and I had a few too many.
 

shaki123

Member
Really? I mean, REALLY?

You just sound racist as fuck, keep telling yourself otherwise.

My girlfriend is black so if I were you I would take back your "comment" really quickly. 100 meters from where I live is a detention area where these people live. They roam our streets and don't follow the rules. They don't show ID's to shopkeepers and so on. People have had enough. And I will tell you this; in 2016 things will change (in Holland at least). We are losing our national identity.
 
It's really ridiculous how you try to transparently define away refugee status for being in some place like Croatia, that cannot handle such numbers. You simultaneously throw both fellow EU members and the refugees under the bus. It's no wonder the EU cannot work when it's so full of selfish and callous people. You'd probably fucking try to steal my bike if we went for a beer and I had a few too many.

WTF lol.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why a person who claims to be a refugee has travelled through several safe countries.
 

Agram

Member
...but the worst part about all of this is misinformation.
Facebook is full of awful people who share fake stories about refugees. Wherever I look I see raping, theft, violence accusations and people are just too naive.
 

justjohn

Member
You are crazy brother. Breaching human right treaties? If we want to close our borders, we close em. That's all there is to it. Also, polls in Germany and Holland have all said the same. So, what else do you want huh? I can understand you don't like it, but it is the goddamned truth. The truth is hard to accept eh? We have no hand in the death of these people. Don't feel guilty that the majority doesn't want them.

Also. You talk about war-refugees? Why the shit do they travel all the way to Holland? They passed Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland. Why are they in Holland or Germany for that matter. They pass all these great, great countries and still decide to go even further because "the war is so terrible".

This is not called a war refugee, but an economical refugee. They should be refused at all costs. Always.


Real refugees should go to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and all these other extremely rich countries. Same religion, same language, same culture, their responsibility.
Don't bother. You'll not get a proper answer to that and they'll just call you a monster who wants to see kids die. Apparently the concerns of local people doesn't really matter.
Edit: lol
 

MUnited83

For you.
He calls me racist. I defend.

"My girlfriend is black", "I have a black friend" and so on is not a defense in the slightest. No matter how many black friends or black girlfriends you had, you can still be racist.

That, and you know, you can be racist to certain races and not to others, so your try of a "defense" is fucking terrible all around.
 

shaki123

Member
"My girlfriend is black", "I have a black friend" and so on is not a defense in the slightest. No matter how many black friends or black girlfriends you had, you can still be racist.

That, and you know, you can be racist to certain races and not to others, so your try of a "defense" is fucking terrible all around.

I will say it one more time. Perhaps, this time, you will understand.

I am no racist. Thanks for your time.
 
Most people are really gullible. If you don't accept immigrants with open arms, you're labeled as racist.

Who wants to wait till shit really hits the fan and Europe crumbles in to civil war?
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
My girlfriend is black so if I were you I would take back your "comment" really quickly. 100 meters from where I live is a detention area where these people live. They roam our streets and don't follow the rules. They don't show ID's to shopkeepers and so on.

So they're basically animals right? Sure, not racist carry on.

It's just like living in Syria!
 

MUnited83

For you.
I will say it one more time. Perhaps, this time, you will understand.

I am no racist. Thanks for your time.

The fact that you need to continously talk about the fact that your girlfriend is black and you aren't racist because of that pretty much proves otherwise.
 

shaki123

Member
So they're basically animals right? Sure, not racist carry on.

It's just like living in Syria!

What I am saying is: Why do you come to our country if you don't intend to adhere by the rules. So hard to read between the lines dude? They don't care for shit about our rules, constitution or freedom of speech. Violence in these areas are much higher and local citizens don't feel safe. Surely that's not important then? If you don't intend to follow the rules of the country you're "visiting" you have no right to be there and you should be expelled.

Wherever the fuck you got "racist" from is beyond me. Never say that to me. Thanks in advance.

The fact that you need to continously talk about the fact that your girlfriend is black and you aren't racist because of that pretty much proves otherwise.

Really? And this proves I am a racist? You really need to calm down quickly or stop doing the drugs you're doing.
 
I will say it one more time. Perhaps, this time, you will understand.

I am no racist. Thanks for your time.

You're worried about the loss of "national identity" and think it feels like Syria because there are some brown people near you. But you have a black girlfriend. Man, you fill all the boxes, but by accident I'm sure. You must be the unluckiest not-racist in the world.
 

MUnited83

For you.
What I am saying is: Why do you come to our country if you don't intend to adhere by the rules. So hard to read between the lines dude? They don't care for shit about our rules, constitution or freedom of speech. Violence in these areas are much higher and local citizens don't feel safe. Surely that's not important then? If you don't intend to follow the rules of the country you're "visiting" you have no right to be there and you should be expelled.

Wherever the fuck you got "racist" from is beyond me. Never say that to me. Thanks in advance.



Really? And this proves I am a racist? You really need to calm down quickly or stop doing the drugs you're doing.

Your previous statements already proved it. The fact that you consider "I have a black girlfriend" a valid defense just cements the fact.
 

Zips

Member
Your previous statements already proved it. The fact that you consider "I have a black girlfriend" a valid defense just cements the fact.

Him using that as a defense doesn't prove he isn't racist, just like you trying to flip it around on him doesn't "prove" he actually is.

Come on now.
 
...but the worst part about all of this is misinformation.
Facebook is full of awful people who share fake stories about refugees. Wherever I look I see raping, theft, violence accusations and people are just too naive.
This does go both ways. No, they are of course not all criminals. But they also aren't all poor refugees with nowhere to go. Only posting pictures of sad children is just as misrepresenting the situation as only showing the bad things.

Thing is, a lot of European countries have had their fair share of trouble with immigrants from Middle-eastern and North African countries for the past decades. When you see the crime stats and welfare stats of these groups, they are higher then others.

There are various reasons for that, but it is also fair to then advocate for tighter control and more oversight of the people you let in, so the same mistakes that caused these figures are not repeated.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Him using that as a defense doesn't prove he isn't racist, just like you trying to flip it around on him doesn't "prove" he actually is.

Come on now.

It's pretty clear that he is, but sure.

You're worried about the loss of "national identity" and think it feels like Syria because there are some brown people near you. But you have a black girlfriend. Man, you fill all the boxes, but by accident I'm sure. You must be the unluckiest not-racist in the world.

Best thing is his tries at a argument that his country shouldn't accept refugees because they pass through several other countries to get there, and says that those should be the only ones that should help at all. One of the stupidest and most selfish one's ive read here yet. "Fuck you, got mine and let me eat my cake. Let others take care of the problem because hurr durr" then he complains how overburden his country is, sorely missing the irony.
 

Mrmartel

Banned
Won't somebody please think of the children! The anti-immigration faction had the same song and dance here, but then it turned out crime didn't rise near refugee centers. But no matter, facts are just a setback!

Your voice is not being heard because you want to breach human rights treaties. You'll get your tightening of immigration if you really are the majority (don't be so sure), but sending people to death is not the same as voting for the tax on tulips.

This is a statement I hear a lot of from the pro-migrant camp. As soon as Europeans think of their own children's safety and futures. It's a joke. What are you worrying about? Or it's xenophobic.

Then immediately after they'll post an image of a (whose father was an accused trafficker) boy on a beach or find in the mass of a thousand migrants the one family with a couple of kids.

What you want those migrant children to die! You heartless bastards!

A Europeans own kin/children is definitely a distant secondary concern, if a concern at all to them.
 
Best thing is his tries at a argument that his country shouldn't accept refugees because they pass through several other countries to get there, and says that those should be the only ones that should help at all. One of the stupidest and most selfish one's ive read here yet. "Fuck you, got mine and let me eat my cake. Let others take care of the problem because hurr durr"
It is a fair argument to question why certain countries refuse that help (especially in the Middle-east itself) while other countries are expected to carry the burden. This argument goes both ways.
 
It is a fair argument to question why certain countries refuse that help (especially in the Middle-east itself) while other countries are expected to carry the burden. This argument goes both ways.

Look, we've got posters in Croatia, a fellow EU state, saying they're overwhelmed. Then we got little darlings from further north who cry their eyes out at the concept of helping out. Fuck, Hungary just threatened to block Croatia's Schengen membership for letting refugees through. EU is so busy trying to out-asshole each other.
 

Mrmartel

Banned
Most people are really gullible. If you don't accept immigrants with open arms, you're labeled as racist.

Who wants to wait till shit really hits the fan and Europe crumbles in to civil war?[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't take any responsibility for this. They would disappear into the ether. They are paper tigers and if/when the shit hits the fan, they'll be on whatever side that's most likely to win.
 

MUnited83

For you.
Look, we've got posters in Croatia, a fellow EU state, saying they're overwhelmed. Then we got little darlings from further north who cry their eyes out at the concept of helping out. Fuck, Hungary just threatened to block Croatia's Schengen membership for letting refugees through. EU is so busy trying to out-asshole each other.

Precisely this.
 

Agram

Member
This does go both ways. No, they are of course not all criminals. But they also aren't all poor refugees with nowhere to go. Only posting pictures of sad children is just as misrepresenting the situation as only showing the bad things.
I'm just saying the police here officially stated that those accusations are false and there have been no incidents. There might be criminals as you said, but for now it's peaceful and I wish it stays this way.
 

Nivash

Member
It is a fair argument to question why certain countries refuse that help (especially in the Middle-east itself) while other countries are expected to carry the burden. This argument goes both ways.

It's a fair question but also a pointless question. The "certain countries" that aren't pulling their weight in the Middle East are also the countries that barely allows women to drive, hold public executions and are exploiting other Asians in near slave like conditions. They aren't the correct measuring stick for just about anything having to do with morality.

The Syrians can't be held responsible for those countries' failings. Us Europeans must hold ourselves to a higher standard and do what's right even if others won't.
 

daniels

Member
Why the shit do they travel all the way to Holland? They passed Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland. Why are they in Holland or Germany for that matter. They pass all these great, great countries and still decide to go even further because "the war is so terrible".

This is not called a war refugee, but an economical refugee. They should be refused at all costs. Always.[/B]

Don't bother. You'll not get a proper answer to that and they'll just call you a monster who wants to see kids die. Apparently the concerns of local people doesn't really matter.
Edit: lol

Yeah its stupid going by the bleeding hearts narrative all the native people from Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland should get refugee status since apparently the countries are not safe or don't have good enough future prospects.
Not good enough for refugees but good enough for everyone else living their what a joke this is.
If you travel through several save countries then this has nothing to do with safety anymore this should be obvious because at that point you become a economic migrant as simple as that.
Either that or all these countries are not save and we should also help the natives there so whats it going to be option one or two?
 

Zips

Member
More like the icing on the cake.

This would be more fitting, as it is essentially proof of nothing. It's either falling into a trope, or a poor choice of argument.

It's pretty clear that he is, but sure.

Haven't read enough of the thread to know either way, assuming it was made clear at some point, but just reading the back and forth fruitless arm-flailing of "No I'm not as shown by x" and "Yes you are as shown by x" is painful to read. You can't defeat someone's point by using something that's just as weak.
 

Agram

Member
Look, we've got posters in Croatia, a fellow EU state, saying they're overwhelmed. Then we got little darlings from further north who cry their eyes out at the concept of helping out. Fuck, Hungary just threatened to block Croatia's Schengen membership for letting refugees through. EU is so busy trying to out-asshole each other.
More than overwhelmed.
The latest information - more than 21 000 refugees entered Croatia and 11 000 left for Hungary or Slovenia.
40 000 refugees are expected to enter in the next few days but some reports say there will be 80 000 of them. This is way too much for Croatia.
 
Look, we've got posters in Croatia, a fellow EU state, saying they're overwhelmed. Then we got little darlings from further north who cry their eyes out at the concept of helping out. Fuck, Hungary just threatened to block Croatia's Schengen membership for letting refugees through. EU is so busy trying to out-asshole each other.
True, and the Western and Northern countries should certainly not do nothing. But like some other poster here contributed, there were immigrants relocated to Poland, and then multiple of them just left and returned to Germany. You can understand the frustration from those countries then, when they are seen by these immigrants as the promised land and only want to go there.

I'm just saying the police here officially stated that those accusations are false and there have been no incidents. There might be criminals as you said, but for now it's peaceful and I wish it stays this way.
Luckily no serious incidents have happened yet. But there are certainly reports about incidents inside these centers (fighting, stabbings and even of abuse and worries about the treatment of women). Those are just as bad.

It's a fair question but also a pointless question. The "certain countries" that aren't pulling their weight in the Middle East are also the countries that barely allows women to drive, hold public executions and are exploiting other Asians in near slave like conditions. They aren't the correct measuring stick for just about anything having to do with morality.

The Syrians can't be held responsible for those countries' failings. Us Europeans must hold ourselves to a higher standard and do what's right even if others won't.
You can't safe the whole world. And then even if you ignore those Middle-eastern countries not taking in refugees (they do fund camps in Lebanon and such, which is good of course), where is the helping hand of other countries then. If so many are unwilling, you can not expect the few to keep carrying the burden, while they are already dealing with their own problems.
 

KDR_11k

Member
Ultimately we have a bunch of racists yelling "we're full" and "our culture will be diluted" before even taking anyone and yelling "go back to the previous country you were in" while that previous country is yelling "go to the next country". Nobody wants these refugees and everybody is passing the buck and imagining the problem stops the moment the refugees are out of their own country. If we distributed them properly the numbers would be manageable but we got a bunch of countries that just don't want to take any. Don't sign the declaration of human rights if you're not going to obey it!

And then calling anyone who refuses to be stuffed into the first camp outside the warzone an economic migrant. Economic migrants are people you can send back to where they came from. You can't send these people back to Syria and if you just pick another random country between Syria and you to drop them on that country is going to be pissed too.
 
More than overwhelmed.
The latest information - more than 21 000 refugees entered Croatia and 11 000 left for Hungary or Slovenia.
40 000 refugees are expected to enter in the next few days but some reports say there will be 80 000 of them. This is way too much for Croatia.
Solution: close the borders. When Serbia and Macedonia have no choice to close theirs, maybe Greece will finally do something to enforce their waters.
 

Nivash

Member
Yeah its stupid going by the bleeding hearts narrative all the native people from Greece, Italy, Belgium, France, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Poland should get refugee status since apparently the countries are not safe or don't have good enough future prospects.
Not good enough for refugees but good enough for everyone else living their what a joke this is.
If you travel through several save countries then this has nothing to do with safety anymore this should be obvious because at that point you become a economic migrant as simple as that.
Either that or all these countries are not save and we should also help the natives there so whats if going to be bleeding hearts option one or two?

I'll ask the same question again regarding this: are you suggesting that Turkey and Lebanon should handle the potential 10 million plus refugees from Syria on their own? Because that's the only logical outcome if you're insisting that refugees need to stop in the first "safe" country they arrive in.

This is the worst refugee crisis since WW2, it needs a global or at the very least continental response because it will have much further reaching consequences than the neighboring countries no matter what we do. The refugees aren't going quietly waste away in massive camps the size of cities for years and years with no future, that's not human nature. They're going to keep coming no matter what. We might as well accept this and actually deal with it rather than deny reality, that way we might avoid this turning into an even worse humanitarian disaster.

ClosingADoor said:
You can't safe the whole world. And then even if you ignore those Middle-eastern countries not taking in refugees (they do fund camps in Lebanon and such, which is good of course), where is the helping hand of other countries then. If so many are unwilling, you can not expect the few to keep carrying the burden, while they are already dealing with their own problems.

We can't save the world but we can do our part and pressure others to do the same. We're not even doing our part right now. We're losing our minds over a few hundred thousand dispersed across the 500 million strong European Union while Turkey and Lebanon are host to millions, with millions more coming. We're staring a disaster right in the eye. It's not going to go away just because we point at other countries and yelling that it's unfair the they aren't doing enough, we can only deal with reality as it is, not as we would prefer it to be.
 
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