Support NeoGAF

[IAmRandom31]

Let me preface this that I did not think Type 0's combat system was bad ( so far I do think FFXV's is bad ). I actually enjoyed it a bit until early-mid in the game when things got overally generic and mundane.

With that said, having recently jumped back into Crisis Core after many, many years I have to wonder how the Action RPG combat system of Crisis Core being as good as it is somehow turned into the bit of a mess that was Type 0. Especially in terms of overall complexity, and good god that camera system of Type 0. Horrible. Despite Type 0 being pretty simple compared to Crisis Core, it somehow managed to be even more complex button wise.

Playing Crisis Core now, it is just so much smoother and more complex yet still so easy to manage. Crisis Core is able to integrate the Materia system into the action rpg gameplay flawlessly. The use of magic spells and special attacks is a simple R or L touch away from being used. The use of Limit Breaks and Summons is still within the gameplay and again works flawlessly in the middle of a battle. The little slot machine style reels that are constantly changing throughout a battle that when land on a certain patterns will activate Limit Break attacks and special mid-battle scenarios ( like spells not costing MP or many others ). The Crisis Core system, still is perhaps the pinnacle of the FF Action RPG combat system. This includes FFXV, which according to the demo will have a pretty substandard combat system ( we shall see what magic or limit breaks, if there are any of those, add to the overall system )

I know this is how Square works though, but it still baffles me. The Crisis Core system was nigh perfect. Easy targeting system. Easy camera to control. Easy and fast to use magic and specials. Dynamic changes throughout the combat scenario.

I've gone back and looked at the credits of the new titles. I see that someone named Kenichiro Yuji is the Battle Director of Type 0. Does that mean he is the man behind the system entirely? He had the full say-so over how the system would work and how it all flowed together?

I then see in Crisis Core that the " Battle Planners " were Arata Matsushita, Tomonari Okuda and Tastuhiko Enari. ( lemme just say that I despise how videogame companies seem to continually change the name of job titles ). I dont see " battle planners " in Type 0, just a Director.

My guess is, Square being Square they thought they had to " keep it fresh " by changing the battle system with each new Action RPG but man, they really need to learn the phrase If It Aint Broke DONT FIX IT. Because what I am playing right now in Crisis Core is TONS better then anything I've played from Square ever since in the Action RPG genre.

Sorry for the jumping around and grammar. It is 2:15am. Thats my excuse.

 

[raven777]

I absolutely hated Crisis Core's battle system, so for me it's good that they moved on.

 

[Zanasea]

Personally, I don't think Crisis Core's system was anywhere near perfection. I think it was a failed hybrid between action and turn-based. The delay between the command input and the actual action was pretty annoying, which is the reason why I prefer a battle system that's 100% action like Type-0 and XV. I can see the logic behind the evolution, and it's certainly something that I welcome. It's more enjoyable when the input is directly followed by the reaction--otherwise just keep it fully turn-based.

 

[glassgannon]

Slot machine limits are bs, thank god they got rid of those.

my problem with 0 was the lack of ability switching. made it extremely spammy.

also, combat focused on 1 character will always be more polished and refined than on 14 characters.

regarding xv, id really rather not start judging it until march.
theyre still making big changes

 

[ponpo]

The Crisis Core system, still is perhaps the pinnacle of the FF Action RPG combat system.

Reported.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I agree with you OP. The only thing Type-0 did better was adding party members.

 

[Ekoria]

I haven't played Type-0, but if it's worse than Crisis Core's 'mash X to win' combat, then I don't think I ever will.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I'm playing Crisis Core after not even thinking about it ever since I first played it so many years ago. Just had a sudden urge to pop it back in and give it a whirl. Especially after playing Type 0 recently and the FFXV demo recently.

It just surprised me how much better it was. How just a simple tap of R will get me over to Thunder and then a simple X tap uses that attack. Or loading in various different special attack materia ( that level up like in FFVII ) changes the capabilities of Zack in combat. I had almost forgotten all about it, so its all fresh again for me.

I'm just comparing it direct with Type 0 and FFXV and its stunning how much more complex it is while at the same time being easier to navigate and utilize. Along with fighting Ifrit for example and having Hellfire used against me, accompanied by a great cinematic ( that can be skipped ) or using limit breaks that have cool sequences accompanying thing. Just loving it. So smooth.

Personally, I don't think Crisis Core's system was anywhere near perfection. I think it was a failed hybrid between action and turn-based. The delay between the command input and the actual action was pretty annoying, which is the reason why I prefer a battle system that's 100% action like Type-0 and XV. I can see the logic behind the evolution, and it's certainly something that I welcome. It's more enjoyable when the input is directly followed by the reaction--otherwise just keep it fully turn-based.

Hmmm ... the delay seems pretty negligible. Its like a .1 millisecond type thing. It is there, but so slight it really hadn't crossed my mind yet.

 

[Boss Mog]

Type 0's combat is good though despite its issues. FFXV's on the other hand is really pretty bad.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Crisis Core. Nigh perfect. Good combat.

You hurt me OP.

 

[jiggle]

Combat wasn't even that good in cc
Just fillers between cloud and aeris sightings

 

[IAmRandom31]

Personally, I don't think Crisis Core's system was anywhere near perfection. I think it was a failed hybrid between action and turn-based. The delay between the command input and the actual action was pretty annoying, which is the reason why I prefer a battle system that's 100% action like Type-0 and XV. I can see the logic behind the evolution, and it's certainly something that I welcome. It's more enjoyable when the input is directly followed by the reaction--otherwise just keep it fully turn-based.

Crisis Core. Nigh perfect. Good combat.

You hurt me OP.

lol, no no the combat system is pretty perfect from what im experiencing. the rest of the game on the other hand. Well there are issues, no doubt. For example missions showing Hard while I'm level 8 being pretty darn easy and giving me powerful materia in return. Can already tell I could very easily overlevel within the next hour and breeze through the story missions soon. I believe thats what I did my first playthrough all those years ago and I hate nothing more then a game that is too easy. TOO easy.

The slot machine things, while cool, do happen too often during a combat scenario. I can see that already. But those types of things could be simple changes in future iterations of the combat system.

 

[Dark_castle]

Yeah I also like Crisis Core's combat way more than Type-0 and Episode Duscae's. Don't like the slot machine mechanics though, but I still had a lot of fun with it.

 

[Newtype-001]

Type-0 > Crises Core > FF15 in combat for me.

 

[Wolf Akela]

Crisis Core was a lot more fun to play with Curse Ring, since it disables the DMW.

It really wasn't perfect, but it had the foundations.

 

[ZeroX03]

I'm not sure if I agree. I think between Crisis Core, Type-0 and XV they're all equally mediocre.

 

[IAmRandom31]

I'm not sure if I agree. I think between Crisis Core, Type-0 and XV they're all equally mediocre.

well yeah, compared to the much better turn based systems that FF has created, the action RPG systems have been mediocre but I'm more directly comparing the action RPG's systems with each other. Type 0 had character switching but they were all so similar it was pointless unless someone was dead and you were forced to switch.

I'm just not seeing what made Type 0 better for some peeps. I'm trying hard, just not able to see it. I guess it was a bit more twitch based / combo based ... but even then ...

 

[AzureFlame]

It was a good battle system, i just hated the slot thing.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Crisis Core was single-player. They try to expand the system but it's not that easy.

 

[Aeana]

Crisis Core's combat and Type-0's combat are actually closely related, both versions of ATB-kai (first appearing in FF10-2) and both designed by Takatsugu Nakazawa. The interface is so different, though, that I guess it's tough to make the connection unless you're looking for it.

 

[GamerJM]

I like the battle systems in all three from what I played of FF15 at least, though playing ranged characters in Type-0 is dreadfully boring. They all seem like they sort of share the same DNA (I guess FF15 less so), though each one that proceeds the next seems quite a bit faster.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm honestly stunned that someone would consider Crisis Core to be a high point of SE battle systems.

It doesn't even rank for me. I'd put ATB, CTB, the XIII system and Lightning Returns above it. And I like what I see of XV.

Haven't played enough of Type-0 to fairly rank it, though I'm not inclined to love it....

 

[Dark_castle]

Crisis Core's combat and Type-0's combat are actually closely related, both versions of ATB-kai (first appearing in FF10-2) and both designed by Takatsugu Nakazawa. The interface is so different, though, that I guess it's tough to make the connection unless you're looking for it.

One huge fundamental difference for me is that in Crisis Core, attacks are more precise and responsive and can be timed, whereas Type-0 is just holding button to attack. I hate that in Action RPG.

 

[BocoDragon]

One huge fundamental difference for me is that in Crisis Core, attacks are more precise and responsive and can be timed, whereas Type-0 is just holding button to attack. I hate that in Action RPG.

I consider that mechanic to be a trivial difference from selecting "Fight" over and over again in a classic RPG.

There is room for hold-button-to-autobattle in RPGs, IMO, if all its replacing is braindead commands.

 

[HeelPower]

Let's not go overboard here. FFXV Duscae 2.0 combat may not be ready yet ,but ,even as it is, its a heck of a lot better than Crisis Core's and will definitely be much better in the final game.

Crisis Core's combat is utterly mediocre.Its nothing to look up to.It descends to shit once you factor in the DMW randomness and repetitiveness.

 

[glassgannon]

One huge fundamental difference for me is that in Crisis Core, attacks are more precise and responsive and can be timed, whereas Type-0 is just holding button to attack. I hate that in Action RPG.

yeah no.
even will the button holding, type-0 FAR FAR more responsive.

 

[Asd202]

Heh that's werid I remember not liking Crisis Core combat but you make it sound like it's the best thing ever.

 

[Dark_castle]

I consider that mechanic to be a trivial difference from selecting "Fight" over and over again in a classic RPG.

There is room for hold-button-to-autobattle in RPGs, IMO, if all its replacing is braindead commands.

There really isn't. Replace braindead command, that's fine, replacing them with holding to attack in a damn action game is not.

 

[duckroll]

Going from Crisis Core to Type-0 is pretty obvious to me. My bigger gripe is how the battle designer went from FFX-2 to Crisis Core/Type-0.

Bring back ATB-Kai with command based party battles!

 

[Meccanical]

Crisis Core's combat was awful bro.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Don't understand how anyone can judge XV's combat when no one has played it.

 

[HeelPower]

Bring back ATB-Kai with command based party battles!

Play LR.

That's really all I can say.

 

[Jolkien]

Crisis Core is one of the poorest arpg I played, mechanically speaking.

 

[CorvoSol]

Kinda feel like Type-0 is the natural progression from how Crisis Core played. Perhaps it's just me, but it feels a lot more fluid, and I especially appreciate not having to wait for enemies to spawn on screen. On the other hand, I can't deny that Crisis Core had a wider breadth of abilities and ease of swapping abilities than Type-0 does. Of course, one is a one man game and the other is a 14 man one.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Crisis Core has one of the worst battle systems I've ever played in an Action RPG. It was crap, straight up.

Type 0's combat is good though despite its issues. FFXV's on the other hand is really pretty bad.

Pretty much. FFXV's really needs to improve after how bad the demo's battle system was.

 

[duckroll]

Play LR.

That's really all I can say.

LR has a party system?

 

[Aru]

It's too early to judge FFXV's battle system. The other games you mentionned are complete products and you can see how the battle system evolves throughout them. FFXV Episode Duscae is basically an early access version missing a lot of features and polish.

I definitely liked Crisis Core's battle system more than Type-0. Even considering you had 3 party members, Type-0 felt limited in some way. You could say it's for the challenge, but having to wait until you reach the next save point to change your abilities is frustrating. Also, I didn't like having only 3 skills at a time.

So far XV's battle system looks more promising than Crisis Core's and Type-0's, and I hope I'm right in the end.

 

[HeelPower]

LR has a party system?

In effect,yes.

Through the schemata system,you control what amounts to multiple characters through one character.

 

[Ochibi]

In effect,yes.

Through the schemata system,you control what amounts to multiple characters through one character.

And it's the best battle system ever.

 

[daniels]

Crisis Cores combat was shit, type-0 combat was shit and Final Fantasy 15s combat in duscae/2.0 was shit so i don't get the surprise.
They try to make it more real time and that's ok whatever BUT the only games that pulled that off are the Kingdom Hearts games the rest are kinda failures... which makes the change in FF15 away from a KH type battle system sooo strange and infuriating.

 

[HeelPower]

And it's the best battle system ever.

One of the best for sure.Its also backed by a really deep customization system and impressive enemy variety.

 

[SoulUnison]

Crisis Core's combat was pretty hype for the time, but playing it in 2015...
Oh man, it's basically cell phone game combat. It's really limited.

Your options are "swing your sword" and then whatever 5 or 6 materia you have on you.
Also you have a somersault.

It's actually kind of infuriatingly simple, upon examination.

 

[Fdkn]

the only good parts of Crisis Core were the ones where you didn't have to play.

Activating boring system gets really old in less than an hour.

I'm glad they moved on from that.

 

[ZenaxPure]

Crisis Core's combat and Type-0's combat are actually closely related, both versions of ATB-kai (first appearing in FF10-2) and both designed by Takatsugu Nakazawa. The interface is so different, though, that I guess it's tough to make the connection unless you're looking for it.

Yeah this is what I was thinking, Type-0 is just more or less an evolution of what Crisis Core was doing, just way better for the most part. Mostly because the interface, I always found picking commands in CC to be incredibly clunky and it messed up the flow of battle. It also didn't help the game was not particularly well balanced so eventually you get to a point where all you were using is one skill over and over so most of what the OP is talking about is pretty much a moot point.

To be fair I haven't finished Type-0 yet (as I am playing on PC and having insane crashing issues that I can't seem to solve) so it may have a similar problem when I get deeper into the game but right now it feels way more flexible than CC. All the characters feel different and while on the outset it seems like you have less actions because of only having 2 skill slots (as opposed to the many materia slots you had in CC) the game adds more attacks as just additional inputs (like normal attack + a direction on the analog stick) which I vastly prefer over CC which just tied everything to materia you had to scroll through.

 

[Resilient]

One of the best for sure.Its also backed by a really deep customization system and impressive enemy variety.

The thing that pissed me off with LR (one of the many) is that I felt I had to spend way more time with the game than I wanted, in order to get the most out of the game. I didn't want to risk running out of time, and I also didn't want to play for more than 40 hours because the game was starting to piss me off. So I don't think I really got to see what the system could do. It was interesting, but I felt like I wasn't enjoying it like I should?

Like, I did the last boss 5 times using the Ultima Weapon, and on the last attempt I was ready to quit the game for good because I just couldn't stagger his defense and do damage. Then by chance it sort of just happened and I ended the series, once and for all :|

 

[duckroll]

In effect,yes.

Through the schemata system,you control what amounts to multiple characters through one character.

No, that's not a party system.

 

[Razmos]

I loved Type-0's combat. I struggled with the camera at first until I actually went in to the settings and changed it, and the game instantly clicked with me as soon as I did.

 

[threelights]

Yeah OP, as someone who spent dozens of hours on CC, and about a hundred on Type-0... CC is interesting until you learn that the game breaks when you stop mashing and time your attacks/dodge. It also only presents a challenge on Hard (and definitely no on the main story, if you do side missions then the story ones will be an extremely easy cakewalk). It's good, but not anything like Type-0.

Also, I am really struggling to understand your complaints on the complexity of controls. They are constantly mapped on your screen and each character only has 4 attacks... At most the complexity comes from characters like Eight with his stances and directional inputs.

But the overall system? In Type-0 there's a great evolution on the player's part (which I haven't seen anyone from GAF reach actually), which basically goes:
game feels too hard -> learn that kill sights break the game -> learn that kill sights are not even the best or fastest way to kill enemies -> battles are super fast while still retaining challenge due to high enemy damage.

Reaching the third stage in Type-0 is what makes me so damn disappointed they are botching it all in FFXV and just letting fans design their game.

 

[2+2=5]

I loved CC and honestly i don't see how people can say that type 0 is the evolution of CC, just because they were both on PSP?

They have NOTHING in common, 1 char vs team with tons of characters reflecting this difference in both story and gameplay, two different battle system, linear world vs sort of open world, rpg vs rpg/rts/etc, straight-to-the-point side missions and story vs many futile/boring/whatever side missions and other things to do and so on.

 

[HeelPower]

No, that's not a party system.

That's exactly how the battle designer described it initially.You control three separate ATB bars at once and each bar can be equipped with its own set of abilities.Doesn't matter if there aren't three character models to visually reflect each schemata as a separate party member.

The thing that pissed me off with LR (one of the many) is that I felt I had to spend way more time with the game than I wanted, in order to get the most out of the game. I didn't want to risk running out of time, and I also didn't want to play for more than 40 hours because the game was starting to piss me off. So I don't think I really got to see what the system could do. It was interesting, but I felt like I wasn't enjoying it like I should?

Like, I did the last boss 5 times using the Ultima Weapon, and on the last attempt I was ready to quit the game for good because I just couldn't stagger his defense and do damage. Then by chance it sort of just happened and I ended the series, once and for all :|

The game is seriously flawed outside of the battle system and there are many things that detract from the overall experience.So I can see why you maynot enjoy it fully.

The time limits did suck.