Nightengale
Member
Support and marketing cost money too though.
Not money in the pockets, but devs still see savings, I would assume.
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[2014] Xbox One Indie Parity Clause impacting number of announcements for system
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
Support and marketing cost money too though.
Not money in the pockets, but devs still see savings, I would assume.
StraySheep
Banned
Agreed. Wasn't that basically what Insomniac was doing all this time until Fuse?
The thing is that Capy's games have and will eventually hit the PS4 whereas Hotline Miami still hasn't come to 360/Xbox One. I hope the Dungeon Defenders 2 deal is a timed exclusive since I'd hate to miss out on it on the One.
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
They partnered with Sony. This has nothing to do with parity clause.At the 2:33 mark Vince Ingenito asks the Dungeon Defenders 2 dev on whether the game is coming to consoles (after Vince mentions playing it on Xbox 360/XBLA) and he says it's coming to PS4 exclusively sometime in 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSd6nfP1-TE
So another game that the Xbox One misses out on, c'mon Microsoft.
LiquidSolid
Member
That's because Sony are going out there and getting every game they can, arranging different deals depending on the developer's unique situation. For Hotline Miami, for instance, they arranged for the PS3/Vita/PS4 port to be outsourced to Abstraction Games (and probably helped fund it). Neither Microsoft nor Nintendo are anywhere near as proactive when going after indies, so they're far, far behind.
And even if it is timed exclusive (and it probably is), Microsoft would still have to give it an exception from the parity clause once the exclusivity expires, so the chances aren't great.
Honestly, you should've known that the Xbone would be lacking on the indie side when you bought the console. It was obvious long before launch what was going to happen and even if Microsoft wanted to catch up (and it really doesn't seem like they do), it was always going to take them a while anyway.
I didn't buy the console, it was given to me as a present.
Regardless of that though I wasn't expecting Microsoft to lag behind THIS much compared to the amount of support the 360 received. Some stuff can be attributed to the parity stuff while others can be chalked up to Sony being more aggressive in getting support for their console.
serversurfer
Member
Oh, those things have value, without question. Having a healthy user base also has value. Hardware which is powerful, easy to use, and having features not typically available on other platforms is quite valuable as well. A lot of value comes from initiatives like the ICE team and PhyreEngine. Being accommodating rather than draconian has value.
You know what else has incredible value? Creative developers and their clever, fun games. I have strengths which would benefit you, and you have strengths which would benefit me. If we partner, we can both benefit from the other's strengths, and everybody wins. I'm not going in to this deal looking to lose money any more than you are. I see your business as one worth investing in and fostering a close, amicable relationship with, and hopefully you see my business the same way and we can be true partners. Because frankly, I need you just as much as you need me, so it's in my best interest to see you do well, and it's in your best interest to see me do well.
Now, who's pitching whom here? Was that the dev's argument to Sony, or vice versa? Kinda hard to tell, eh? That's because everyone is coming out ahead.
Sorta. It's the same in that Insomniac weren't beholden to Sony in any way. They were a fully independent studio who happened to have a great relationship with Sony and saw no reason to work with anybody else.
The primary difference with that relationship compared to the indy stuff is that Sony were actually the publishers of Insomniac's games. In short, that means they were providing way more money, and had a lot more control over the process. In effect, it was Sony's game, which Insomniac was contracted to deliver. Sony also owned the IP itself, which gave them the freedom to give handheld ports to other devs, have Ratchet appear in PSASBR, etc. That's actually what lead to their "falling out," because Insomniac were the ones pouring their blood, sweat, and tears in to making these games in to the franchises we all adore, and they understandably felt like they deserved a little ownership of the IP they helped build. For their part, Sony were understandably loathe to give up any control whatsoever, because Crash and Spyro.
Anyway, things aren't really like that with the indies. They're on their own, doing their own thing. As the platform holder, it's in Sony's best interest to have the game on their platform, so they're gonna lend "all the assistance they can," with the amount of assistance likely directly proportional to the quality of the game, their relationship with the devs, etc. As I was saying above, Sony are looking to invest in your game, just as they're hoping you invest in their platform.
What were the conditions which precipitated this particular partnership?
*Bump*
I was just thinking about this subject. I didn't run any numbers, but it seems to me like this trend is accelerating rather than decelerating. It seems every week there are more and more indie games being announced for PS4, with no mention of an Xbox One version. The only games which are doing Xbox but not Playstation seem to be games which Microsoft is funding in exchange for a degree of exclusivity (many of which Sony will subsequently welcome with open arms), and then there's the third category of games that are hitting both platforms, usually with a publisher or porting house attached.
I really am surprised that MS have stuck to their guns on this obviously damaging policy for so long, but it does seem like it's not going anywhere.
Is there any comprehensive data for recently announced indie games for these platforms available, or is manually curating these lists the best way to make these kind of comparisons?
I was just thinking about this subject. I didn't run any numbers, but it seems to me like this trend is accelerating rather than decelerating. It seems every week there are more and more indie games being announced for PS4, with no mention of an Xbox One version. The only games which are doing Xbox but not Playstation seem to be games which Microsoft is funding in exchange for a degree of exclusivity (many of which Sony will subsequently welcome with open arms), and then there's the third category of games that are hitting both platforms, usually with a publisher or porting house attached.
I really am surprised that MS have stuck to their guns on this obviously damaging policy for so long, but it does seem like it's not going anywhere.
Is there any comprehensive data for recently announced indie games for these platforms available, or is manually curating these lists the best way to make these kind of comparisons?
biglittleps
Member
Well small studios have limited resources to develop, so they will not be able to develop for all platforms at the same time and Sony support Indies in many ways which makes the PS4 version possible for many games. Also PS4 is global product compared to XB1 which is popular only US/UK. Some of the games may end up on Xbox one later depending on the game success.
I fully agree about the PS+ thing honestly (though honestly that is an entirely seperate subject from what is discussed here). But... this isn't good for xbox because all developers start somewhere and I would say that probably would be as indie developers. You get them more used to PS and if they become bigger developers, that becomes more the platform they prefer. Sure, they might go for other platforms but for example look at Bethesda. They have preference for MS and even with PS4 fixing what issues they had with PS3, MS is still getting preferential treatment (they are getting mods first for one, they are getting the marketing and the bundle).
It is not a good thing for MS in the long run and it is good foresight on Sony's part to be so open.
Edit: Oops, I'm bad about checking dates on threads. Didn't realize this was an old thread being brought back.
Yeah I'm well aware of why this is the outcome, I'm just examining how things are developing.
Indeed, a portion of games coming to PS4 first might get granted permission to do an Xbox version, should MS decide to waive their policy (we all know that a megahit on PS4 will get the policy waived, but MS still haven't specified what criteria they base these decisions on).
I would have made a new thread, but there is an excellent OP in this thread which plainly explains the scenario for newcomers. I'd have probably wanted to quote large chunks of it anyway. Lots of people don't have a good grasp of this subject, and discussion of how it is developing could easily get sidetracked with people asking questions that is already well worn ground for people who are already informed about the subject.
SuperSonic1305
Member
There were a few weeks in the past month with 10+ new PS4 games coming out on the store. It's insane.
On this particular topic, which is prone to people making points about an ongoing matter that have already been answered/debunked several times, I agree. I think there was another more recent discussion earlier this year though.
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1081121
Here you go, search 'parity clause' if you want to find the more recent thread.
Sangetsu-II
Member
I miss listwars.com, at least there we could see the huge difference in digital/retail titles between the platforms.
Sangetsu-II
Member
Darth Smurf X
Member
This.
I know of at least one person, in real life, who owns an XB1 who will be buying a PS4 solely for this game.
Now, I know what you mean by "system sellers"...
... And yet one of the reasons I have a PS4 is because of all the great indie games. So many. SO many great indie games.
It was partially Sony's strong support for indie games and smaller-scale games that convinced me to get the system and dive into all the great, experimental titles.
I mean, the biggest draw for me on Xbox is Ori and the Blind Forest...
Bits N Pieces
Member
Ooh, this will be an interesting thread to go through (before my time here).
Is it not all pretty much swings and roundabouts now? MS do deals with indies and Sony do deals with indies? Sony have the larger install base so that's where the indies are going first? Then the games appear on other platforms at a later date, once said deals run out and/or MS let it go through their cert process - which most of them do now?
Now to go back to page one
Is it not all pretty much swings and roundabouts now? MS do deals with indies and Sony do deals with indies? Sony have the larger install base so that's where the indies are going first? Then the games appear on other platforms at a later date, once said deals run out and/or MS let it go through their cert process - which most of them do now?
Now to go back to page one
serenewarfare
Banned
Ooh, this will be an interesting thread to go through (before my time here).
Is it not all pretty much swings and roundabouts now? MS do deals with indies and Sony do deals with indies? Sony have the larger install base so that's where the indies are going first? Then the games appear on other platforms at a later date, once said deals run out and/or MS let it go through their cert process - which most of them do now?
Now to go back to page one
There are plenty of indies who go with Sony not because of some deal, but because Sony have done a great deal of work in minimizing the friction for these developers to actually ship a game on PS4. Unless Sony are actually funding development, they don't typically impose any exclusivity on them. It is Microsoft who are turning down games because they have already been on PS4, and the developer is unwilling to spend a chunk of time/money developing Xbox exclusive content for their game just to satisfy Microsoft's ill thought out policy. Sony has no such problem in accepting games that were on Xbox first.
The difference in outcome is not just a matter of market share, it is about their approach with how to do business with developers, and their policies.
We don't know which games MS have specifically turned down via this clause because they force devs to sign an NDA before discussions reach that stage. It is not the case that most games that launched on PS4 first have now ended up on Xbox One.
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
What a horrible bump. There's been like 5-6 indie releasing a week since before summer.
The fact that you said the only ones that have been coming is because Ms bought exclusivity shows just how much you failed to do the slightest bit of research
The fact that you said the only ones that have been coming is because Ms bought exclusivity shows just how much you failed to do the slightest bit of research
ThatOneGrunt
Member
This seems like a weirdly timed bump. Is this because of Agostino SImonetta's comment about 1000 developers have Xbox one dev kits?
http://www.gamestm.co.uk/interviews/how-xbox-won-back-the-indie-devs/
http://www.gamestm.co.uk/interviews/how-xbox-won-back-the-indie-devs/
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
He didn't say that.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Thanks for the reply
I wasn't insinuating that it's only Sony who deals for indie games, sorry if that's how it came across but they both still partner with smaller Devs and lock them up on timed or full exclusivity, right?
Also, so there is still some skullduggery going on from MS's perspective then? Dont know the ins and outs of all this but I did read an article today from one if the ID@Xbox guys where he was saying there are now over 1000 indie developers on their program and who have dev kits. Do we have any idea on the number at Sony's end?
I find that hard to believe. I have no interest in procedurally generated worlds (procedural is better for stuff like trees or faces) as it is laughably inferior to human design. To me NMS will be fun for 2 hours, then it will become a repetitive game with mediocre gameplay.
Then again, I thought people wouldn't like playing minecraft for long because of the pixelized graphics.
I was not right that time. Maybe I won't be right about NMS either. People who like taking screenshots of their procedural new world and animals might dig it.
It was a generalization, but not one without merit. My point was that the trend is that indie devs on the whole are prioritising PS4 except for in instances where MS are funding them, or doing both at the same time when they are able to do so.
I did specifically state that I've not ran the numbers, but I know that pretty much any time I hear about an indie game I like the look of coming to a console, it is PS4. Some of these games end up on Xbox One too, but for whatever reason, PS4 comes first.
Sangetsu-II
Member
The differance here is that minecraft was for people who wanted to create things and survive, NMS is for people who want to explore,fight,discover,trade,steal,create,share,etc. It will be another minecraft! It will just appeal to a wider audience because it's sci-fi and looks prettier.
Sangetsu-II
Member
Seeing how they can't stop talking about the parity clause and then do these "It'd be great if <name> game to xbox"
Kinda makes it seem like they do.
Problem with cross-platform indie games is that another MS policy comes into play and prevents them from putting it on XB1. (Example: Rocket League)
I think a big hit like Rocket League would probably get the parity clause waived, it's more about pushing around devs not in a position to object.
I suspect the problem with bringing that to Xbox is that the dev won't want to split the playerbase, since right now there are just one set of servers for the PC and PS4 version. Microsoft don't allow multiplayer outside of the Xbox live ecosystem, and certainly don't allow multiplayer that is crossplatform with the PS4 version.
The dev can either split the playerbase into one group that is PS4 and Steam, and another group that is Xbox Live (both Xbox and potentially a Windows Store version), or simply opt not to release on Xbox.
My intuition says they'll go for the latter option, but they might go for the first, or MS might change their policies/waive their policy in this instance.
I suspect the problem with bringing that to Xbox is that the dev won't want to split the playerbase, since right now there are just one set of servers for the PC and PS4 version. Microsoft don't allow multiplayer outside of the Xbox live ecosystem, and certainly don't allow multiplayer that is crossplatform with the PS4 version.
The dev can either split the playerbase into one group that is PS4 and Steam, and another group that is Xbox Live (both Xbox and potentially a Windows Store version), or simply opt not to release on Xbox.
My intuition says they'll go for the latter option, but they might go for the first, or MS might change their policies/waive their policy in this instance.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
And Final Fantasy XIV.
Gotta say that this likely going to be the case for me.
I know. Just commenting on how stupid it is to say that MS doesn't care about these games otherwise they wouldn't be repeating the secret command phrase - COME TALK TO US -
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
"The only games which are doing Xbox but not Playstation seem to be games which Microsoft is funding in exchange for a degree of exclusivity (many of which Sony will subsequently welcome with open arms)"
Except that he kinda did. How on earth could one even know the answer to this? But hey lets just assume if a game doesn't go to Playstation it's because MS funded LOL
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
Which again is just downright false.
RazielCuts
Member
Seeing how they can't stop talking about the parity clause and then do these "It'd be great if <name> game to xbox"
Kinda makes it seem like they do.
What else is Phil going to say? 'No, that game sucks and it would be awful on Xbox.' It's a blanket statement for everything, it's a non answer, kind of like most MS communication.
panda-zebra
Member
Might be nice to see some evidence of your research to back up this claim of a horrible bump.
Summer began June 21, from then to now that's 16 weeks, that's 80 to 96 games. Let's see this list.
Triggerhappytel
Member
TimeEffect
Member
You can do all those things in Minecraft, except maybe steal.
NMS is not going to be the next Minecraft. Unless they let you create things, which is a huge reason Minecraft is successful.
Man, thats standard PR bullshitSeeing how they can't stop talking about the parity clause and then do these "It'd be great if <name> game to xbox"
Kinda makes it seem like they do.
DangerMouse
Member
Yeah, it's crazy.
This topic is still very valid, and it seems like every week there are a bunch of new PS4 indies announced.
Yeah, even if they would waive it since it's a bigger game, it's double blocked so it seems really unlikely.
Sangetsu-II
Member
You can create elements and sell or use them to upgrade equipment in NMS that is a huge sci-fi deal for some. Also I didn't know you could trade or have trade route in Minecraft?
ChosenPredator
Banned
I'm just going to say this I don't think it'll even touch minecraft if it does i'll be blown away and happy for the developers.