Begaria
Member
You joke, but trust me, there is a pretty core group of Xbox gamers that I know of that honestly believe they did dodge a bullet.
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[2014] Xbox One Indie Parity Clause impacting number of announcements for system
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
You joke, but trust me, there is a pretty core group of Xbox gamers that I know of that honestly believe they did dodge a bullet.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
It's not even console exclusive, they have never said that it is staying PS4 exclusive.
Consoles aren't as cheap as people claim, you have to pay a yearly subscription or you are locked out of half of your games. How many years do you play your console? That shit adds up.
People like to pretend that fee doesn't exist when comparing dollar to dollar, but you also don't need an expensive PC to compare performance-wise to PS4. Also, the archaic argument about kb/m is irrelevant... you can use a controller. Hell, you can use a PS4 controller, Xbox One controller, 360 controller, retro SNES controller, wait a few days and you can use a Steam controller.
Points are all moot.
Likewise, not everyone cares about gaming on consoles. Like for instance the majority of gamers... are not on console.
Darth Smurf X
Member
I know this. He knows this. He's buying a PS4 to play it. My point still stands. This game is selling a PS4 because it's not going to be on an XB1 for the foreseeable future.
Papacheeks
Banned
Nope, PSN players in Rocket League play against Steam players on PC. That's one of the issues that make it so Microsoft cannot allow that game, since they have a clause against cross platform titles.
No man Sky does have more to do with a deal with Sony, but also with the fact of their relationship from previous game, and it's steam, PSN release.
Yes I am sure the parity clause is doing its job and keeping bad and mediocre reviewed indie game away from the Xbox store, job well done MS.
Digital Limit
Member
The absence of Rocket League and No Man's Sky from the Xbox One marketplace has nothing to do with the parity clause or cross-platform play.
Its a good thing MS is missing on all these great games like Rocket League and such because of a silly little policy.
Delusibeta
Banned
Went through the games list on Xbox.com and I count 54 indie games that are out on the Xbone since The Witcher 3 that are currently not available for the PS4. Of course, there's stuff that's obviously going to get a PS4 port sooner rather than later (Escapists Walking Dead edition, MMO/GoatZ Goat Simulator bundle) and there's probably stuff in there that won't (calling it now: Castle Crashers Remastered), but I suspect a large part of the problem is that Microsoft's doing a spectacularly bad job at marketing these games.
mejin
Member
So, they think the less the merrier...crazy thought. I can't see any cons to see your platform receive more games.
Then what are the reasons? I haven't heard anything other then cross play as the reason for rocket league.
Sangetsu-II
Member
Rocket League doesn't have any exclusive agreement I'm aware of, source?
Edit: Also, does someone know if NMS is cross-platform play PS4 with PC.
If so then NMS will be a console exclusive to PS4 do to MS crossplay policy.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
RE: Rocket League
Were now in a position that we can expand our team. We are absolutely, 100 per cent going to other platforms, Psyonixs VP of marketing and communications Jeremy Dunham told Gamezone.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2307360/ro...latforms-xbox-one-likely/#3qwUxAmDgL3HtVgS.99
Source?
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Look one post up.
Papacheeks
Banned
Correct. According to polygon article, but one of the things was the cross platform. I think that's why on twitter they are being cagey about it coming to "other"platforms.
I bet they are trying to figure out if they bring it to xbox, if that is enough player base for the game to thrive.
There are always 17-20,000 players on at 2am playing rocket league every night. And that's because of cross play.
You have over a million users on steam and 4.- something million on PSN.
DagnastyEp
Member
But is this a confirmed reason why the game is not on Xbox One? It may be one of the issues of the clause, but does not mean it's a reason why the game isn't on the system. As of now there's just a cagey tweet from the dev on the situation:
Also Head.Spawns post above.
Hello games have released time exclusive games for Xbox and Playstation. MS doesn't seem to have much of a problem with Steam releases either. Seems more like paid (timed?) console exclusivity to me.
Not trying to say the parity clause is any good. I think it's an obtuse barrier preventing many games on the platform, with no reason to exist in 2015. Just pointing out that for those 2 games speficially, I'm not sure if the clause is the case for them not being on XB1.
There's a lot of speculation and external observation going on in here, so I'll just briefly offer my perspective as someone who is actively trying to work their way into the world of indie development. This is just my own experience and opinion, so I'm sure it's not representative of other indie devs. I'm also going to omit most of the details (names, dates, numbers, etc.) because it wouldn't really be professional of me to speak to those.
The biggest advantage that Sony has over MS with regards to indie games is the way they're extremely active in courting interesting projects as they pop up. If you have an indie game that's getting some significant amount of attention via social media, there's a decent chance that someone at Sony will initiate contact with you. From there, it's an extremely low friction process to start working with them, and the people at Sony are very helpful and nice at every step along the way.
Maybe this is just me, but that extremely pleasant interaction kinda engenders a sense of loyalty. It feels like Sony has genuine confidence in your product and wants to help you make it successful. That sense of loyalty is a bit contagious, and I think it plays a huge part in making other developers and people in general feel encouraged by Sony's approach to indie games.
On the flip side, regardless of how much of it is actually truth vs perception, everything about approaching MS feels like trying to get inside of a walled city. Unless you have a massively popular up and coming project, it doesn't seem like MS is really initiating contact with any devs. You're most likely going to need to go pay the fee to become a registered MS developer and then submit to ID@Xbox without any prior interaction from someone at MS. It's not a hugely involved or costly process, but it ends up feeling like you're paying a fee for the opportunity to cold call and sell someone on your game. It's still relatively low risk to apply, but any amount of friction at all just makes it feel like much more of a long shot than the Sony experience.
I've only ever had one brief conversation with someone from ID@Xbox because I met them in person at GDC, and I didn't walk away from it feeling any better about the prospect of approaching an Xbox One release. To be totally honest, I felt like I was kinda being guilt tripped into applying. The conversation mostly boiled down to, "We've sent out X dev kits to developers. Don't you think you're one of the top X developers out there? If you don't fill out the application, you'll never find out what it's like to work with us." (just paraphrasing here, not an exact quote)
This isn't even touching on whatever MS's contractual obligations are with regard to release parity or additional content - I don't actually know about any of it and wouldn't be able to say anything specific if I did. I'm sure a lot of it is negotiable and won't be the same for every developer anyway.
Nintendo hasn't really entered into the discussion in this thread much, but for the record, all of my interaction with them has also been very pleasant and productive.
The biggest advantage that Sony has over MS with regards to indie games is the way they're extremely active in courting interesting projects as they pop up. If you have an indie game that's getting some significant amount of attention via social media, there's a decent chance that someone at Sony will initiate contact with you. From there, it's an extremely low friction process to start working with them, and the people at Sony are very helpful and nice at every step along the way.
Maybe this is just me, but that extremely pleasant interaction kinda engenders a sense of loyalty. It feels like Sony has genuine confidence in your product and wants to help you make it successful. That sense of loyalty is a bit contagious, and I think it plays a huge part in making other developers and people in general feel encouraged by Sony's approach to indie games.
On the flip side, regardless of how much of it is actually truth vs perception, everything about approaching MS feels like trying to get inside of a walled city. Unless you have a massively popular up and coming project, it doesn't seem like MS is really initiating contact with any devs. You're most likely going to need to go pay the fee to become a registered MS developer and then submit to ID@Xbox without any prior interaction from someone at MS. It's not a hugely involved or costly process, but it ends up feeling like you're paying a fee for the opportunity to cold call and sell someone on your game. It's still relatively low risk to apply, but any amount of friction at all just makes it feel like much more of a long shot than the Sony experience.
I've only ever had one brief conversation with someone from ID@Xbox because I met them in person at GDC, and I didn't walk away from it feeling any better about the prospect of approaching an Xbox One release. To be totally honest, I felt like I was kinda being guilt tripped into applying. The conversation mostly boiled down to, "We've sent out X dev kits to developers. Don't you think you're one of the top X developers out there? If you don't fill out the application, you'll never find out what it's like to work with us." (just paraphrasing here, not an exact quote)
This isn't even touching on whatever MS's contractual obligations are with regard to release parity or additional content - I don't actually know about any of it and wouldn't be able to say anything specific if I did. I'm sure a lot of it is negotiable and won't be the same for every developer anyway.
Nintendo hasn't really entered into the discussion in this thread much, but for the record, all of my interaction with them has also been very pleasant and productive.
Sangetsu-II
Member
Other platforms could mean Windows, Linux, Wii U. He is not necessarily meaning or specifying XB1. We have to wait and see.
Given this announcement not so long after it is likely the "other platforms that they were talking about(Linux/Mac).
http://www.shacknews.com/article/91...-copy-will-come-with-steam-hardware-pre-order
Edit -
Also keep in mind when RL was announced there was no PR pointing towards it PS4 exclusive(Timed or otherwise). Plus their history on Playstation with Supersonic Acrobatic Rocket-Powered Battle-Cars(PS3)
Neuromancer
Member
As if this wasn't bad enough, indie game developers are also falling afoul of Microsoft's publishing policies (presumably regarding minimum print runs), as evidenced by the XBone retail version of Shovel Knight getting cancelled.
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/10/retail-update/
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/10/retail-update/
Uhuh.
Certainly the majority of high profile Xbox only (or Xbox and PC) indie games are such because Microsoft has funded them. Cuphead, Inside, Below, etc. These are games that are not announced for PS4, because they have agreed to exclusivity with MS.
Whereas there are a massive amount of indie games coming to PS4, with no Xbox version anywhere on the horizon, and these are not tied into any exclusivity deal from Sony, just for whatever reason the developer is not doing an Xbox version.
The default for indie games targeting consoles right now is PS4, much like it was Xbox 360 previous generation. Microsoft might intervene and offer funding for exclusivity on certain titles, some studios may buck the trend and prioritize Xbox for reasons unrelated to funding on the table, but that is not what is happening with the bulk of games.
Even if a game does hit Xbox first, there are far fewer barriers to it appearing on PS4 later than there is the other way around. We know the parity clause still exists, logic dictates that it will be applied in some instances.
If you are broadly interested in indie games, I'd say PC is the ideal platform, but as far as consoles, the PS4 is a pretty clear leader right now. Microsoft's approach towards developers is a clear factor in that. Indie devs are generally platform agnostic until they have a reason not to be.
Papacheeks
Banned
They do have issues with multi-release. PS4 and steam version of No man Sky are not launching same day. If it were to come later on XBox one I know there's a clause stating that it needs added content to come out at a later date rather than multi-platform release.
I would also believe it had also to do with Sony's indie relations, they actually had stage time demoing the game. Microsoft uaually show cases indies in a video montage rather than have them up on stage, like SOny did in every one of their conferences.
No man sky has to be shown to people, talking about it only goes so far.
Digital Limit
Member
Physical copies are last generation. But really, this couldn't be less important or less related to this topic.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
I get that, but it doesn't automatically mean the reason it wasn't ported to begin with was due to parity.
That article I link states that the main reason the game was launched as it was, minus a lot of other platforms, is because they didn't have the man power to do the porting themselves at the time.
I get that. I'm just saying "parity" isn't a default reasoning. It's an assumption based on nothing, like for instance if their previous games were PS exclusive, is that because of MS's policy too or because they have a good and easy going working relationship with Sony?
Papacheeks
Banned
That has more to do with a retail policy, I believe. I think it has to do with the amount of games they need a minimum to print.
Interfectum
Member
But isn't the parity clause exactly why Rocket League still isn't out on Xbox One then? Doesn't that prove it?
They could have easily got it on the system by now, they even did a Mac and Linux version. Where is it?
Sangetsu-II
Member
And not just that, but the cross-platform policy could also be a reason (on top of the parity clause) that it isn't on XB1.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
It doesn't prove anything.
Ask the developer if their game is blocked because of it, otherwise it's purely an idea with zero merit behind it.
I'm not saying it couldn't be the case; but I have yet to see anything concrete and I'm not one for assumptions.
It is related though. Go back to like 2006, and neither MS or Sony had good policies and infrastructure in place for handling indie developers. MS was initially far more proactive in courting these developers, and creating a platform where they could thrive.
I guess because they knew the PS4 was their best chance to catch up, and prior to that because they knew that major publishers were not going to support the Vita, Sony have been very aggressively courting these kind of developers. In order to do so, they have reorganized their processes, hired staff in support capacities, developed their infrastructure and rewritten certain policies.
Allowing smaller print runs of PS4 games is one such example of this. It is an extra revenue stream for developers, and it lets developers form stronger connections with their fanbase.
It's all part of the same movement that has resulted in the PS4 having an extremely stacked release schedule, full of indie games.
No Mans Sky is coming out on PC the same day as PS4
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/no-man-s-sky-pc-and-ps4-will-release-at-same-time/1100-6428267/
Here is my 2015 update to this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1123962
tattooed_dwarf
Member
But where the hell is Below? It's been teased since launch I believe?
Ha Noted.
Agreed with this. Other factors such as PS4's install base, experience developing on platforms I feel are unknowns among other things that could affect releases.
RowdyReverb
Member
Just repeating what I heard on the Giant Bombcast. Which is why I qualified my statement with "under the impression" rather than state it as fact.
I'm not looking to pick a fight. It just seems like another thinly veiled concern and list warz thread, so I was challenging the logic of comparing quantity of announced games between consoles. The title change frames the discussion differently. If this is another "that darn parity clause" thread, fine.
There has to be some reason why they nixed XBLIG. Maybe they did want to curate their store more, who knows?
Papacheeks
Banned
I don't disagree with any of that, I was just talking about the retail thing, since it was something that recently had a thread on. It's more to do with a dumb policy on Microsoft's part, but to me it's more understanding, because physical isn't cheap to produce.
Thanks for the update, I should have looked, I for some reason thought it was coming at a later date to PC.
You keep saying that Rocket league, cross platform games, and Physical have nothing to do with the topic, but yet they totally do, when it's about barriers a certain platform holder has or is imposing (maybe not purposely) on games coming to their platform.
Please show us how these instances of games don't have anything to do with the thread title? Because you've yet to explain. You act like your a fucking moderator of this thread. Yet thread is about games that are not coming to a specific platform, and the conversation going around are people bringing up popular games that combat people quality>quality analogies.
They burned their bridges and lost favour with people in general, players and developers. Even now MS /say/ they're putting things right while leaving high minimum print runs as a barrier to release while Sony have been actively encouraging small runs. The parity clause may or may not be a thing now, but it definitely /was/ a thing. A thing they justified through obvious and unpaletable spin.
More recently MS announced they're killing XLBIG, which was the one really good thing they ever did. Of course if you speak to devs who used it, the pricing model was not favourable and there were instances of MS delaying payments for an extended period just because they couldn't get their act together.
I think people are collectively sick of their shit and what you see are the consequences.
More recently MS announced they're killing XLBIG, which was the one really good thing they ever did. Of course if you speak to devs who used it, the pricing model was not favourable and there were instances of MS delaying payments for an extended period just because they couldn't get their act together.
I think people are collectively sick of their shit and what you see are the consequences.
Papacheeks
Banned
Liberty4all
Banned
Fee?
"There are no fees to apply to ID@Xbox, to submit a game to certification, publish, or update your games".
Neuromancer
Member
I believe it is related as it further reflects the Xbox team's baffling disregard for indie developers. But if you think it's off topic feel free to PM bishoptl and ask him to delete my post; I won't mind.
TBiddy
Member
Depends on your taste, I'd argue. Rocket League not being on XB1 seems to be a priority of resources and not having anything to do with lack of resources. They were 8-12 people working on it, so prioritizing the two largest platforms (PS4 and PC) is a business question.
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/rocket-league-coming-to-xbox-one/
There's no doubt that XB1 is missing out on some great indies (like Rocket League), but the argument that "there's so much more games on PS4" is a bit silly, since it doesn't really matter how many games you have, if they all suck.
Note: I'm not saying all the games the PS4 has that the XB1 doesn't, sucks.
Rocket League not being on XB1 doesn't have anything to do with the parity clause. It's a matter of ressources, according to the developers.
Great post. Very informative. My post was directed at those that counted numbers and thus found a winner.
justsomeguy
Member
interesting and frustrating. For completeness, what's the process like to get a Sony dev kit and is it free as is the id@xbox one (I believe)
MetalFreak
Member
Amazing post OP.
Nice link job but Destiny and Battlefront were AAA titles and NMS is a low-budget indie. I don't think any has been a system seller to date.
TBiddy
Member
Not many games can call themselves a "system seller", imo. Halo, Uncharted, TLoU and exclusives like that might. But a low-budget indie also arriving on PC? I highly doubt it.
justsomeguy
Member
Quoting for new posters - conversation too interesting to be split across threads.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Not that I'm aware of. Could you perhaps inform us of some of these "shovelware indie titles"? Shouldn't be hard if there's a glut of them.
Papacheeks
Banned
Rocket league though your right on maybe parity clause. There were concerns on the game being cross platform, that's something that was more of business decision. If they do bring it to xbox people will not be able to play against PC players. And there over a million users who bought that game on steam.
So that to me is why they are being coy, and probably figuring out how if the number of xbox players alone will be enough for a long term community on that platform.
PanicFreak
Member
I don't think Microsoft would stop Xbox players playing with PC players but management probably doesn't want Xbox players playing with PS4 players.