Support NeoGAF

[Crossing Eden]

Well... try to imagine Ra-Laira drawn with realistic proportions, and without cel-shading techniques to make her look so cartoony. Basically, try to imagine that character I posted drawn as a real person, and answer me this:

Would she look as badass?

If you went for a more true-to-life art style, Ra-Laira would look absolutely stupid, because her outfit is more or less a Halloween costume. I mean, she's got a Halloween ghost on the tip of her hat, for goodness' sakes!

And that's really a big part of the reason why I dislike realistic character designs: we may have the tech to make them look believable, but sometimes, you don't WANT them to look believable -- you want them to look cartoony, because what's badass-looking in cartoon form often looks like something out of a B-movie when depicted realistically.

As a result, realistic character designs in games tend to go more for clothing choices that are at least somewhat true-to-life. They may not be limited by technology, but they're limited by public perception of what's cool and what's cheesy -- a line that's much harder to draw in cel-shaded anime form.

-Tom

The majority of game costumes still look like halloween costumes tho. And we need more old ladies in games imho.

That character design actually would look really cool if rendered realistically.

 

[wyrdwad]

That character design actually would look really cool if rendered realistically.

Hmmm... Well, fair enough! I'm not sure I agree, but I admit I'd love to see it and be proven wrong.

Any 3D modelers up to the task?

-Tom

 

[Earthpainting]

Fanservice crosses the line to me if it breaks my immersion, compromises characterisation, or utilises humiliation or shame as one of the mechanics to cultivate titillation.

The first one seems self-explanatory. If the game goes out of its way to force T&A in my face that in no way matches the tone of flow of the story, then it's distracting, and cheapens your characters and story. An example of this done poorly is Heavy Rain. That game somehow adds a sex scene when the stakes of the game get raised, and time is running out. The scene is jarring, and you can tell the only reason it exists is to have a sex scene in the game. Heavy Rain has quite a few of those scenes, and this sort of stuff even appears in other Quantic Dream titles.

The second one is mostly aimed at risqué outfits. Sometimes they are alternate costumes, but we've got plenty of instances where they are the primary outfits as well. A character's attire tells us a lot about their implied personality, and place in the game world. It can even help contribute to a sense of culture in a fictional world. If a character wears something that clashes with her personality, or seems inappropriate for the task at hand, it changes your perception of that character. Aya Brea in the Third Birthday wearing a bunny fetish outfit looks out of place, and makes her look less competent. You could perhaps write around this if you take this into account in the dialogue, but if you ignore it, it gives me the impression that the world they've created doesn't matter.

The last one is perhaps the least explicit one of the bunch, but the one that bugs me the most. Starting with an example may be easiest. In many anime-ass games, like the Tales series for instance, they like to include scenes where women get exposed or molested against their will using contrived "accidents". These range from characters falling on top of each other, to getting creeped on in obligatory hot springs scenes. These scenes usually end with lots of blushing or fits of anger towards another character, because what happened clearly went in against their own will. I think the reason it exists is counter the previous problem. They want to keep their characterisation intact, so they have to go out of their way to create scenarios where their characters get objectified. Layering shame and sadness onto your objectification is just weird and offputting to me.

On the flip side of things, I respect games a lot more when they cut the pretence and just lean into things. For instance Bayonetta is camera-aware and feels so in control of her situations that has time to play around. Sure, most of it ends up looking like that scene from Austin Powers where he's posing on the rotating bed, and amounts to little more than sexual intimidation, but it feels like it's part of her persona. She's vogue-taunting on her enemies to show how unthreatened she is. The point is that the package works there, in spite of how blatant it sometimes gets. She's even given the agency to cut it out when stuff actually gets serious in the story, and the camera direction follow it.

I am very quickly annoyed by fanservice pushed into my face, at most I am accepting it. I can't name a single game where I thought "yep, that was a good use of fan service". I understand that it makes sense in locations like strip clubs or red light districts, but even then it often feels like the locations are just there for that purpose. People should just watch more porn and throw the whole half-assed erotica out of games unless it is relevant.

This is a good way of summarising it. You can argue about there being a time and place for anything, but even when the time and place are fully under the control of the designers and writers, they still don't really make it work. Most of the time I just wish it wasn't there entirely.

 

[hodgy100]

I don't understand the defence of fanservice that days that they like fantastical designs. You can have these crazy awesome unrealistic designs without the fanservice. :/ I've felt largly pushed away from a lot of Japanese gaming due to the crazy amount if fanservice that has been pushed into it o er recent years. It never used to be so prevelent pre ps2 era

 

[Palculator]

I am very quickly annoyed by fanservice pushed into my face, at most I am accepting it. I can't name a single game where I thought "yep, that was a good use of fan service". I understand that it makes sense in locations like strip clubs or red light districts, but even then it often feels like the locations are just there for that purpose. People should just watch more porn and throw the whole half-assed erotica out of games unless it is relevant.

Are you sincerely suggesting that instead of playing a game that has, say, 1h of content that could be classified as "fanservice" (or "half-assed erotica"), people should play a game that has no fanservice at all and additionally watch an hour of porn to get the same experience as the first game?

 

[Mephala]

Too much of anything bothers me so I guess that is a yes.

 

[Nightbird]

The Wolfenstein sex scenes are not fanservice at all. Sexual content does not automatically equal fanservice.
Those scenes were done to characterize and tell a story, not to give fans some pervy shots. You don't even see much.

The only real fanservice in Wolfenstein TNO are the

Spoiler

Wolfenstein 3D callbacks

.

This is an interesting post, because thats exactly the same reasoning that was used against the change made in the new Fatal Frame, and many were not really positive to that reasoning.

 

[Palculator]

This is an interesting post, because thats exactly the same reasoning that was used against the change made in the new Fatal Frame, and many were not really positive to that reasoning.

To be fair, the people critical of that line of thought had much more of a point with the unlockable costumes in Fatal Frame V. I'm not trying to justify them censoring the story parts (or even the outfits) but just sayan' if Wolfenstein had unlockable bikinis for females and a speedo for Blazkowicz it would be a) pretty fucking awesome and b) kinda go against the reasoning you were responding to.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Yes. Too much is too much.
Quiet's outfit isn't really an issue, rather the ridiculous scenes she's put in, and the camera work of them. I have a difficult time imagining her acting like this when she was

Spoiler

with the XOF

. Is it the

Spoiler

photosynthesis or the vocal cord parasite

that's making her take off her clothes and roll around on the pavement?

Her posing on the helicopter was similarly blatant, annoying, but also continuously forced in your face. And the shower scene can just fuck off, as not only is it gratuitous garbage, but it also fucks up characterizations. Why is Ocelot there? Why is Big Boss inviting his men to stand and leer at a soldier who's had his back for countless missions and whom he supposedly deeply respects? This scene would not happen, and yet it does, solely for "fanservice". It's just shit.

 

[igordennis]

Not knowing most of the characters in that image, I actually agree that they look kind of bland, and it's not because of the amount of clothing they're wearing -- it's because they're all drawn relatively realistically.

When I play games, I want to see highly stylized, cartoony art. I want to see things that DON'T resemble the real world, because that's what gaming does best: it transports you to another world. The more realistically proportioned and realistically drawn a character is, the less interesting I'll consider him/her to look, every time.

I don't mind if the character is wearing practically nothing, or is wearing far more clothes than are necessary -- as long as he/she looks "fantastical," I'm all in.

Basically, if the character would make for an impressive and decidedly eye-catching cosplay, then I probably like his/her design a lot. If a person cosplaying that character could potentially be confused for just wearing everyday clothes, however, then I'm probably not going to be very impressed with what I see.

It also helps, though, when the character's face doesn't look like a real human being's face. I don't like the uncanny valley, and prefer to stay firmly in the realm of outlandish proportions whenever possible.

That's why one of my favorite character designs of the last 10 years is probably the witch Ra-Laira from Falcom's "Zwei II":

I still really want to see someone cosplay her at some point.

-Tom

Besides this thread? Yes. Off of NeoGaf? Also yes. Tumblr is the worst with this. People trying to make some point that only good female characters are those dressed like:

And yet, most of these women will also have the same personality type. That art work is also super bland, with the exception of the pink haired woman.

When characters like Beyonetta, Wonder Pink, R. Mika, Quiet, Trish, Cammy, and many others are seen more for what they wear then who they are, how they're written, what they are capable of. It just bugs me so much.

I just want to say thank god this view is shared by a very small minority who was naturally attracted by this thread. It would make reading this forum unbearable to me, i respect your opinion but reading something so far off my world view is still jarring. Thankfully (for me) the reveal threads of those games are full of praise for the designs.

That personality thing though is of course just straight up unalduterated bullshit as eden has shown. Just dont give your opinion on something you have no knowledge on folks.

 

[Demoskinos]

Akiba's Trip is a game that relies entirely on its fanservice and it shows. That game is terrible.

Akiba's Trip pokes fun at its audience on a regular basis. If anything that game is a way smarter indictment and parody of otaku culture than people give it credit for.

 

[Cloyster]

I just want to say thank god this view is shared by a very small minority who was naturally attracted by this thread. It would make reading this forum unbearable to me, i respect your opinion but reading something so far off my world view is still jarring. Thankfully (for me) the reveal threads of those games are full of praise for the designs.

That personality thing though is of course just straight up unalduterated bullshit as eden has shown. Just dont give your opinion on something you have no knowledge on folks.

Yeah I wouldn't say much about the personalities, but I can definitely say designs like Bayonetta, Wonder Pink, fighting games and such are insanely more interesting to me.

Horizon is cool though.

 

[ssjChris]

It's hard to think of a western game that actually runs off fanservice but then we have a lot of anime based or ongoing Japanese series that sometimes thrive off of it. I remember seeing crap like BMX XXX or The Guy Game back on PS2 and now with the internet, publishers don't try to sell a game with sex/fanservice as much as they used to.

Either we've matured into better people or the industry just knows that we don't really buy into that sort of stuff anymore. Meanwhile, Pornhub proudly displays what genres that console owners wank to for free.

 

[wyrdwad]

Akiba's Trip pokes fun at its audience on a regular basis. If anything that game is a way smarter indictment and parody of otaku culture than people give it credit for.

THANK YOU.

Glad to see somebody else appreciating Akiba's Trip. Game is really, really underrated IMHO. I'm not kidding that the whole reason we worked on it is because Acquire sent us an early build to evaluate and we all unanimously enjoyed it so much that we pretty much had to put in a bid.

I think it's the kind of game that you either "get" or you don't. And if you get it, it's kind of amazing.

(I still think it's our best English dub to date, too!)

-Tom

 

[MarmaladeChainsaw]

I absolutely can not stand those japanese fanservice games you see on the vita etc. A few have come out on steam lately. I remember reading posts on reddit from people who were outraged that the steam version of Mugen Souls was censored (they removed a groping minigame where you bathe little girls I believe). I think those games are trash and I automatically assume that anyone into games with panty shots of 12 year old looking girls is a sad sad human being.

 

[ssjChris]

Also, I don't mind the occasional fanservice from a game. Whatever. But stuff like this Tweet made me laugh during E3. Yeah, the costume is a bit weird. But it could have been a lot worse. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/611229178596233218
EDIT: Now w/ pic

I dunno. Costumes don't really bug me as much except for like Dead or Alive 5 where the game almost runs off of micro transactions for costumes. Then you got games like P4DAN where the fanservice (sort of) made sense due to her being an idol.

 

[omnislayer]

I can honestly say I'm OK with any level of fanservice.

 

[DekuLink]

It can be distracting, so yes.

 

[Astery]

No.
the exception-Star Ocean 4 is the only game that I'm interested in and it bothered me to the point that I decided to not purchase it, due to most of the crappy party characters doing crappy fan service. Kay.

 

[silva1991]

Yes it bothers me. it's embarrassing.

 

[OmegaX0]

Akiba's Trip pokes fun at its audience on a regular basis. If anything that game is a way smarter indictment and parody of otaku culture than people give it credit for.

It's also quite tame when it comes to the sexual content. It's probably safe to say that a lot of people took the premise of the game at face value and never looked back.

 

[Javier]

No, it really doesn't.

I've played plenty of games with varying levels of fanservice, but I didn't purchase any of them strictly for the fanservice.

 

[MrCunningham]

Fan service can encompass a wide variety of things and doesn't have to be sexual in nature. For me it depends on what the context of the fan service is and how it can work to the advantage of the game. Sometimes fan service can be nice, other times it can come off as being a desperate attempt at attention. For me fan service can go anyway.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

I hate it when tits and ass kills an awesome game. Therefor I will not download any games with fanservice.

I also hate the name fanservice..

 

[DarkFlame]

Fan service ala anime style is a reason to hate a game.

Are there really people that prefer to see sexy things in a fkin game for no reason,instead of lets say going to a pornsite to get on?

There is a hentai parody of every fkin game out there,so just remove every type of sexual fan service and let those who want it search it elsewhere in the internet

 

[TeddyShardik]

Well, if it's "too much" it does obviously. That point is reached rather easily in my case though. A thing here and there is fine but I don't need or want constant TnA in my games.

 

[Palculator]

Yes. Too much is too much.
Quiet's outfit isn't really an issue, rather the ridiculous scenes she's put in, and the camera work of them. I have a difficult time imagining her acting like this when she was

Spoiler

with the XOF

. Is it the

Spoiler

photosynthesis or the vocal cord parasite

that's making her take off her clothes and roll around on the pavement?

Her posing on the helicopter was similarly blatant, annoying, but also continuously forced in your face. And the shower scene can just fuck off, as not only is it gratuitous garbage, but it also fucks up characterizations. Why is Ocelot there? Why is Big Boss inviting his men to stand and leer at a soldier who's had his back for countless missions and whom he supposedly deeply respects? This scene would not happen, and yet it does, solely for "fanservice". It's just shit.

Well, at least she doesn't seem to mind it too much: https://youtu.be/mUwMDMjYjTA

 

[Lernaean]

Also, I don't mind the occasional fanservice from a game. Whatever. But stuff like this Tweet made me laugh during E3. Yeah, the costume is a bit weird. But it could have been a lot worse. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/611229178596233218
EDIT: Now w/ pic

I dunno. Costumes don't really bug me as much except for like Dead or Alive 5 where the game almost runs off of micro transactions for costumes. Then you got games like P4DAN where the fanservice (sort of) made sense due to her being an idol.

I'm sorry, but i fail to see what's wrong with this costume.

 

[a.wd]

When has "fan service" become code for boobs and ass?

This

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

I might be playing Tera to this day if I had even a single non-stripperclothes option for my character.

 

[SeanTSC]

I'm sorry, but i fail to see what's wrong with this costume.

Absolutely nothing wrong with it and that badge is pretty awesome. Rise's P4DAN design is great and completely in context for the character and setting. Rise ftw.

 

[ssjChris]

Absolutely nothing wrong with it and that badge is pretty awesome. Rise's P4DAN design is great and completely in context for the character and setting. Rise ftw.

Yup! You can say the replies to her tweet there were... *sunglasses on* golden.
>.>;

 

[Demoskinos]

It's also quite tame when it comes to the sexual content. It's probably safe to say that a lot of people took the premise of the game at face value and never looked back.

Totally. I wish more people would give it a chance its a pretty fun game.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

It depends on context.
But yes, it does bother me.

I'm more annoyed by MGSV's Quiet than VV from Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines for example. Context matters on this topic.

 

[CyanideFuse]

I am not sure if this counts but an online game I used to play, Hawken, got chopped-and-changed based on the input of a very vocal group of players to the point it just didn't play very good. I suppose that is quite fan-servicy as it did seem like the developers cosied up with this segment of players to the detriment of the game.

So in short: yes it does 'bother' me.

 

[Srey Plaughtered]

Not really. I'm all about fan service as long as it fits the already established world of the game. That's why Quiet didn't bother me too much since the world logic of MGS is already too ridiculous that it wasn't too surprising or out of the blue. Boycotting a whole game because of someone else's clothing or their depiction is kind of childish in my opinion, no offense to anyone who does this.

Though I do prefer references as fan service more, like the Moonlight Greatsword and Patches in souls games.

 

[aeolist]

game developers generally approach sex appeal with the subtlety and nuance of a rabid badger

maybe if it were something i could play without feeling like the game were constantly winking at me and nudging me with an elbow, but i don't think i've ever seen that

 

[GHound]

Fan service ala anime style is a reason to hate a game.

Are there really people that prefer to see sexy things in a fkin game for no reason,instead of lets say going to a pornsite to get on?

There is a hentai parody of every fkin game out there,so just remove every type of sexual fan service and let those who want it search it elsewhere in the internet

Maybe, instead, it's you who should go do something else? Did you ever even stop to consider that you could just elect to not play Japanese games?

 

[aeolist]

I'm sorry, but i fail to see what's wrong with this costume.

Absolutely nothing wrong with it and that badge is pretty awesome. Rise's P4DAN design is great and completely in context for the character and setting. Rise ftw.

she's 15, right? maybe that's why people don't like seeing her sold as a sex object

 

[ezodagrom]

Fanservice doesn't bother me at all, I don't mind it at all as long as it's not completely out of place.

 

[Palculator]

Not really. I'm all about fan service as long as it fits the already established world of the game. That's why Quiet didn't bother me too much since the world logic of MGS is already too ridiculous that it wasn't too surprising or out of the blue. Boycotting a whole game because of someone else's clothing or their depiction is kind of childish in my opinion, no offense to anyone who does this.

Though I do prefer references as fan service more, like the Moonlight Greatsword and Patches in souls games.

Pretty much this. People like to overlook the fact that "breathes through her skin" is given as justification in a game where a 20 year-old corpse controlled by a floating psychic child is riding a burning unicorn to chase a

Spoiler

hypnotic copy of

a legendary super soldier, after a probably more than 100 metre large whale made of flames jumped out of a forest to down a helicopter. In a series that gave you infinite ammo because the rifle's magazine was shaped like the infinity symbol and cheat items are made canon in the sequels. Not to mention characters living on as split personalities via arm transplants that's first explained by "his dad was magic" and later on as hypnosis, and whatever other numerous nonsensical elements you can find in this amazing franchise.

All of which is irrelevant because there's a woman in a bikini.

 

[formasymphonic]

she's 15, right? maybe that's why people don't like seeing her sold as a sex object

Hate to be that guy and take this on a tangent but she's 15 in P4. I haven't played DAN but I think it's set 2 years after so by then she's

Spoiler

a 1000 year old demon

17.

Also the more I think about it, the funnier / sadder it is to even use the term "fan service" for this. Not to pick on Atlus / P4 specifically but the whole concept of using sexuality as some kind of implied reward for loyal purchasing just leaves me shaking my head in disappointment.

 

[pants]

If it was a game like DOA from the start, nope.
If it was a game like idk Syphon Filter and it was added later, ya.

 

[kswiston]

Also the more I think about it, the funnier / sadder the whole concept of using the term "fan service" for this is. As if the sexuality is some kind of implied reward for loyal purchasing.

It is treated that way a lot of the time. Especially now that we have pre-order and DLC costumes in a lot of games.

 

[Krabboss]

If the fanservice is nudity for the sake of nudity, yes. If it's something like MGS4 which was basically a MGS best-of... kinda.

Fanservice can never really make a game better unless you like anime ladies and you're desperate for a pull.

Loving the responses from people with anime avatars in this thread, though.

 

[formasymphonic]

It is treated that way a lot of the time. Especially now that we have pre-order and DLC costumes in a lot of games.

Yeh I know. The fact that it happens isn't so much what bothers me. Some games like Senran Kagura etc have been like that from the start etc — what really gets me is how the culture has seeped over and you see it in loads of other games where it was never really needed. Or making things that could / should be tame sexualised (eg costumes for younger characters etc).

 

[HK-47]

Pretty much this. People like to overlook the fact that "breathes through her skin" is given as justification in a game where a 20 year-old corpse controlled by a floating psychic child is riding a burning unicorn to chase a

Spoiler

hypnotic copy of

a legendary super soldier, after a probably more than 100 metre large whale made of flames jumped out of a forest to down a helicopter. In a series that gave you infinite ammo because the rifle's magazine was shaped like the infinity symbol and cheat items are made canon in the sequels. Not to mention characters living on as split personalities via arm transplants that's first explained by "his dad was magic" and later on as hypnosis, and whatever other numerous nonsensical elements you can find in this amazing franchise.

All of which is irrelevant because there's a woman in a bikini.

You will be ashamed of your words and deeds. But here is some sexy ass shots while you head out to a mission. Also apparently huge arm length gloves and her hair arent restricting her ability to breath. MGS fans love to treat the series seriously when it comes to theme and characters but any time criticism is pointed in its general direction they are the first to hide behind "its wacky and crazy." Pointing out how stupid the rest of the series can be is just a dodge on the original criticism.

 

[Vlaphor]

You will be ashamed of your words and deeds. But here is some sexy ass shots while you head out to a mission. Also apparently huge arm length gloves and her hair arent restricting her ability to breath. MGS fans love to treat the series seriously when it comes to theme and characters but any time criticism is pointed in its general direction they are the first to hide behind "its wacky and crazy." Pointing out how stupid the rest of the series can be is just a dodge on the original criticism.

I've never actually met a MGS fan who takes the series seriously. I know several who love the story, but love it because of how utterly stupid and silly everything about it is. I doubt Kojima was ever trying to make anything serious, considering the vampire, bee people, mechs, and poop references mixed in with the serious stuff.

I will say that, to me, the worst part about Quiet was the "ashamed of your words and deeds" thing. A bit more outright honesty of "I wanted to put this model in this video game, and the enhanced graphical fidelity will make her sexy as fuck" would've given people a lot less ammo to work with against her.

 

[Banana Aeon]

If Kojima was just truthful about Quiet, I would not have an issue with her.

 

[Palculator]

You will be ashamed of your words and deeds. But here is some sexy ass shots while you head out to a mission. Also apparently huge arm length gloves and her hair arent restricting her ability to breath. MGS fans love to treat the series seriously when it comes to theme and characters but any time criticism is pointed in its general direction they are the first to hide behind "its wacky and crazy." Pointing out how stupid the rest of the series can be is just a dodge on the original criticism.

The "ashamed of your words and deeds" part only exposes Kojima as a liar/exaggerator. Something we've been aware of for ages. It says nothing about what was actually delivered, rather what was suggested, which I frankly don't care about because I played the product as it was released, not as it was promised.

Regarding the latter, "wacky and crazy" don't really exclude it from being examined critically or examined seriously either. It's a comment on the tone of the game, not its interpretations. My complaint was merely with the fact that people like to rip that one titbit out of the game and present it in a totally different tone and environment the game does.