BluePigGanon
Member
That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.
This.
That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.
That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.
Oh my god are you fucking serious with this? No different than victim shaming?? She's not a real character with any agency. Good grief!That being the case, I think it's fair to say that it is not the outfit which is inappropriate, but the reactions to that outfit. To believe otherwise is essentially no different than victim shaming -- it's the equivalent of saying, "Well, she asked for it because of the way she was dressed."
I have to say that I am quite... dazzled by some of the posts I'm reading here. xDLOL I can't believe what I am reading
It's kind of funny to see artistic freedom being used as an argument about something called fanservice, which is literally throwing in stuff to please the fans (and make more money). Very artistic all right.ehhh This goes back into the whole "artistic freedom" mess that I don't want to derail the thread into that again.
no one is saying otherwise?
The issue generally is what people expect that criticism to do...mainly get rid of the thing they are criticizing. That's where the push back comes from.
That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.
LOL I can't believe what I am reading
And people should be able to criticize those criticisms. That's called a discussion.
You may find it hard to believe that there are people that do genuinely enjoy these performances without any sense of sexual arousal or gratification. This really circles back to the whole problem with the user more so than the content. It might be you that has a problem if you're seeing it as something sexual.LOL I can't believe what I am reading
It's kind of funny to see artistic freedom being used as an argument about something called fanservice, which is literally throwing in stuff to please the fans (and make more money). Very artistic all right.
:lolAlso, I don't mind the occasional fanservice from a game. Whatever. But stuff like this Tweet made me laugh during E3. Yeah, the costume is a bit weird. But it could have been a lot worse. https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/611229178596233218
EDIT: Now w/ pic
I dunno. Costumes don't really bug me as much except for like Dead or Alive 5 where the game almost runs off of micro transactions for costumes. Then you got games like P4DAN where the fanservice (sort of) made sense due to her being an idol.
I'm seeing a misunderstanding here. I don't think they're talking about advocating for change in future products, they're saying "you shouldn't be asking to change existing products". Which is fair, but then again, no one is also saying anything about censoring existing products, so that's effectively a strawman.Then there's not actually a point to criticism. Expressing your opinion without any desire that it will be taken into account is just yelling into the void.
Huh? I'll judge a product however I damn please, same as you. What the hell?Who are you to judge what is and isn't art?
Oh my god are you fucking serious with this? No different than victim shaming?? She's not a real character with any agency. Good grief!
I have to say that I am quite... dazzled by some of the posts I'm reading here. xD
It's kind of funny to see artistic freedom being used as an argument about something called fanservice, which is literally throwing in stuff to please the fans (and make more money). Very artistic all right.
Then there's not actually a point to criticism. Expressing your opinion without any desire that it will be taken into account is just yelling into the void.
Huh? I'll judge a product however I damn please, same as you. What the hell?
no one is saying otherwise?
The issue generally is what people expect that criticism to do...mainly get rid of the thing they are criticizing. That's where the push back comes from.
Absolutely. But people should not judging those who think differently than them. I see a lot of judging with this topic.
That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.
And people should be able to criticize those criticisms. That's called a discussion.
It's about becoming more sensitive to the subject because it gets so close to home. I'm not a parent myself, but I have three nieces and now I can no longer see pedophilia as a distant, theoretical evil. Obviously I've never liked pedophiles, but now they make me think of my nieces and that makes me feel physically ill.
People have different levels of comfort and it's affected by life situations and histories. It's not a question of being 'right or wrong'.
Cant say i have read any post in this thread like that. Especifically the otakus and basement dwellers part. Except for you of course that keeps posting this shit to antagonize both sides.
For those who want "fanservice" in all their games, why does titillation have to be everywhere in the media you consume? There's a plethora of porn online that you can just go masturbate to, why does it has to be everywhere?
I am of course assuming people are serious and I am taking their word at face value.
I'm an adult, if I want porn I'll find it.
Polluting the media and art I consume with it is not desirable.
I am very quickly annoyed by fanservice pushed into my face, at most I am accepting it. I can't name a single game where I thought "yep, that was a good use of fan service". I understand that it makes sense in locations like strip clubs or red light districts, but even then it often feels like the locations are just there for that purpose. People should just watch more porn and throw the whole half-assed erotica out of games unless it is relevant.
Yep. Bugs me in anime, too. If I want porn I'll go watch porn.
(Note: Fanservice does not equal sexiness. Characters being sexy is fine. I think for me it's largely a question of how the camera treats it.)
Well want it all you like, as long as you're not firing up a bulldozer to run over Steam Keys of Neptunia actually you know what ... do that. I don't get it personally, but whatever good luck and god bless you on your journey to reform the Japanese gaming industry.Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
Why not? If someone thinks KKK art is cool, why can't I judge them?
You may find it hard to believe that there are people that do genuinely enjoy these performances without any sense of sexual arousal or gratification. This really circles back to the whole problem with the user more so than the content. It might be you that has a problem if you're seeing it as something sexual.
Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
Why not? If someone thinks KKK art is cool, why can't I judge them?
Why is it bullshit? If I don't like it why should I be censured?
Yep.
Then there's not actually a point to criticism. Expressing your opinion without any desire that it will be taken into account is just yelling into the void.
Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
It's kind of funny to see artistic freedom being used as an argument about something called fanservice, which is literally throwing in stuff to please the fans (and make more money). Very artistic all right.
Then there's not actually a point to criticism. Expressing your opinion without any desire that it will be taken into account is just yelling into the void.
You may find it hard to believe that there are people that do genuinely enjoy these performances without any sense of sexual arousal or gratification. This really circles back to the whole problem with the user more so than the content. It might be you that has a problem if you're seeing it as something sexual.
Hoping for something that has always been about fanservice to change is kind of selfish to both the fanbase and the creators.
It's different when we're talking about something that might be fanservice. Both author intent and death of the author become a big part of the discussion, which admittedly can help in the future if the artist learned how to portray said aspects better. I still disagree with calls to excise it completely as opposed to the author making their intent clear.
Of course you can view sexy costumes without any sexual arousal, but to deny that is what they exist for is a level of mental acrobatics that completely baffles me.
Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
Why not? If someone thinks KKK art is cool, why can't I judge them?
I don't see how it is? Tom said it himself it's seen more as cute than sexual if anything. And he explained himself that there's really a whole different perception on this with the East and West, hence the standards and reactions to Idol Culture here and elsewhere.Of course you can view sexy costumes without any sexual arousal, but to deny that is what they exist for is a level of mental acrobatics that completely baffles me.
It's not why they exist, though. Like, objectively not. That would fly in the face of the entire idol industry if it were. Pop idols in Japan, and even worldwide, are very specifically meant to be chaste and innocent.
-Tom
Wow. Well, I can see this is pointless.
Of course I can judge what is and isn't art. Who are you to tell me I can't?My point is that NO ONE can judge what is and isn't art...
jenniferlawrenceyeahok.gifbecause everything is art.
It's not why they exist, though. That would fly in the face of the entire idol industry. Pop idols in Japan, and even worldwide, are very specifically meant to be chaste and innocent.
-Tom
Chaste innocence can (and often is) absolutely be part of a sexually charged fantasy. If not sexually explicit than certainly sexually posessive.
Why can't I want to get rid of things I don't like?
Why not? If someone thinks KKK art is cool, why can't I judge them?
Why is it bullshit? If I don't like it why should I be censured?
Yep.
Of course you can view sexy costumes without any sexual arousal, but to deny that is what they exist for is a level of mental acrobatics that completely baffles me.
Not sexy right?
Sexy? Too sexy?
This is really not Japanese idol dancing at all though.This example is Korean, but pretty much proves what I am trying to say
https://youtu.be/ejY-SSI_1-0?t=7m35s
This example is Korean, but pretty much proves what I am trying to say
https://youtu.be/ejY-SSI_1-0?t=7m35s
I'm a bit lenient on fanservice to an extent.
I'd give a more long-form post provided the thread is still open after work though.
All I can say is, I strongly disagree. That is not how true "moe" works. I would suggest reading up on this.
-Tom
What about the inverse? Is it selfish to hope that the Fire Emblem series continues down its current trajectory when it alienates historical fans?
Sexy? Too sexy?
https://youtu.be/SLsm_Wl1-uk?t=2m14s
I'm actually pretty amazed at the fairly constant tone in this thread that reads "If they are making something that I don't like, I'd rather them not make anything at all than take the effort to step around the the thing I don't like".
I don't see how it is? Tom said it himself it's seen more as cute than sexual if anything. And he explained himself that there's really a whole different perception on this with the East and West, hence the standards and reactions to Idol Culture here and elsewhere.
Honestly, kinda weird. She looks like a 20 year old trying to dress like a 9 year old.
http://i.imgur.com/k8yd3P3.gif
What is true "moe" though? Whenever I dip into conversations or poke my head into communities based around what we think of as moe there's basically always some sexual appreciation going on, sometimes in the posessive way, sometimes in a more explicitly suggestive way. If the argument is that the vast majority of moe appreciation isn't sexual in any capacity, I'm not seeing it
Korean girl groups are not the same thing as Japanese idol groups.
I don't think it's very clear that the character is supposed to look cute instead of sexy. She looks like this:Because... it doesn't imply sexuality in any way? They're perfectly valid clothing choices that are only sexual when contextualized as sexual.
In this case, it's very clear that the outfit is worn to make the character look "cute" as opposed to "sexy," which is a very Japanese concept -- especially for an idol singer. The goal is not to entice the lustful gazes of men, but to dazzle the senses during a dance performance.
Maybe it's just a Japanese thing, I dunno, but that outfit is honestly MODEST for an idol singer. I've seen servers at family restaurants wearing sexier things than that.
-Tom
I don't think it's very clear that the character is supposed to look cute instead of sexy. She looks like this: