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[Sophia]

Even if she were 7, that outfit is entirely nonsexual. Like, not even remotely objectifying or sexualized, as far as I can ascertain. I can't even comprehend objections to that image. Is it just because it shows midriff? Like, are we seriously saying that showing midriff is anti-feminist or objectifying or something? Because if so, I'm just... baffled.

-Tom

Uh, that outfit isn't "entirely nonsexual", she's wearing a miniskirt, her bra is hanging out a bit, and has a considerable midriff.

I mean, it's not really inappropriate or overly sexualized especially when you consider Rise is an idol, but there are few seven year olds going around wearing outfits like that.

 

[wyrdwad]

Wait, how is a miniskirt, thigh highs, bare belly and a low cut top "nonsexual"?

Because... it doesn't imply sexuality in any way? They're perfectly valid clothing choices that are only sexual when contextualized as sexual.

In this case, it's very clear that the outfit is worn to make the character look "cute" as opposed to "sexy," which is a very Japanese concept -- especially for an idol singer. The goal is not to entice the lustful gazes of men, but to dazzle the senses during a dance performance.

Maybe it's just a Japanese thing, I dunno, but that outfit is honestly MODEST for an idol singer. I've seen servers at family restaurants wearing sexier things than that.

-Tom

 

[Palculator]

Even if she were 7, that outfit is entirely nonsexual. Like, not even remotely objectifying or sexualized, as far as I can ascertain. I can't even comprehend objections to that image. Is it just because it shows midriff? Like, are we seriously saying that showing midriff is anti-feminist or objectifying or something? Because if so, I'm just... baffled.

-Tom

I really don't know man. Despite her character arc dealing with sex at some times, I never ever saw Rise as sexualised in any way. But it's a story revolving about high-school students growing up, so the subject is bound to be at least broached. It's obviously much more present in the context of idol culture, but by the time I saw that supposedly offensive artwork of her I already knew the character behind it and had a very different impression.

Maybe it's just the thing about her being 15 in the original game (which again, to everyone else, she is not in that artwork) and people are just more uncomfortable with that. But coming from a culture in which 14 is where age of consent starts, I can't say I share that reaction.

 

[igordennis]

Since we are talking of P4AN this may be revelant:

Persona 4: Dancing All Night had exactly this problem. For the sake of argument I'm hand waving the fact that all the characters are teenagers, because the girls all get boob physics. But when one of the guys gets a tiny Speedo, it's played for laughs and his below-waist region is entirely flat at both the front and the back. All the boys have the same flat arse, but the girls get boob physics and different cup sizes.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

If you all want to bitch about fan service in P4 DAN at least pick a costume that is fan servicey. Jesus. Here.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Nobody "picked" on that character in particular. She showed up on Anita's badge at E3, Anita rolled her eyes and tweeted about that, and that's it.

But I guess it's important to debate the minute details of her mini-skirt and stuff... xD

 

[Mik317]

Rise is a good example of why context and intent matters.

On the surface, it cute anime girl in skirt and midfriff exposing top. The mind can jump to conclusions based off of what that can normally mean. Obviously what ever game that is glorifies it and all that jazz. But in reality, it goes over the bad parts of the industry and never overly sexualizes the character (too an extent...Rise is rather thirsty tho) and thus the context of the situation validates it. People often look at stuff with preconcieved notions and judge it as that. Apparently many of the Atelier games are great when it is easy to write them off as moe trash heaps based off the designs. This goes both ways of course (as people dissed realistic designs with no context).

Context, tone, and intent matter. I fucking love Kojima and MGS, but even I went...that is bullshit when Quiet's reasons were explained. The context was poor. MGSV tone is hella more dark than normal. And the intent was obvious...Kojima likes hot women and had the tech to show that off. Nothing is wrong with that really but he wasn't super honest w/ it (outside of the I want people to cosplay that yo). Whereas the Senran Kagura guy, was open and owned up to his perversion fro example.

Basically, it isn't always this cut and dry explanation. Mika makes sense. She is a joshi wrestler stereotype, in SF that exagerrates the hell of our everything. Makes sense. Dragons Crown, also was an exagerration of classic D&D trope done to the MAAAX made sense. If the next Splinter Cell or something, replaces Sam Fisher with Fran Sharker who wears nothing but a bra and hot pants and gun straps...that when it is done wrong.

There is a time and place for anything. You just got to be good at presenting it. I will admit...most suck hard at it.

 

[SixMachine]

Since we are talking of P4AN this may be revelant:

About the flat ass, sadly even the women in the game have them, so Atlus is to blame for that. If they also properly rendered Yu Narukami's balls, I'm pretty sure the vita doesn't have a big enough screen to hold them.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

People complaining without context will always be annoying. Sometimes it's perfectly valid as context doesn't excuse some things. Rise is not one of those times. People should really play the games before criticizing. At least those critical of the LGBT handling have played the games.

 

[kuroneko0509]

Because... it doesn't imply sexuality in any way? They're perfectly valid clothing choices that are only sexual when contextualized as sexual.

In this case, it's very clear that the outfit is worn to make the character look "cute" as opposed to "sexy," which is a very Japanese concept -- especially for an idol singer. The goal is not to entice the lustful gazes of men, but to dazzle the senses during a dance performance.

Maybe it's just a Japanese thing, I dunno, but that outfit is honestly MODEST for an idol singer. I've seen servers at family restaurants wearing sexier things than that.

-Tom

The problem here is a cultural disconnect and understanding of Idol Culture. Like check out the #FE threads. As also seen in here, folks have a strong distaste for Idol Culture. Which kind of strikes me funny, because there's really has been no Idol games released here outside of Omega Quintet or Neptunia PP. Although Both which arent exactly quality games either.

 

[Cloyster]

People complaining without context will always be annoying. Sometimes it's perfectly valid as context doesn't excuse some things. Rise is not one of those times. People should really play the games before criticizing. At least those criticizing for the LGBT handling have played the games.

Like people who complain about Bayonetta without understand her or the game.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

About the flat ass, sadly even the women in the game have them, so Atlus is to blame for that. If they also properly rendered Yu Narukami's balls, I'm pretty sure the vita doesn't have a big enough screen to hold them.

Fucking lol

 

[Aurongel]

I'm an adult, if I want porn I'll find it.

Polluting the media and art I consume with it is not desirable.

 

[igordennis]

Like people who complain about Bayonetta without understand her or the game.

Nah Bayonetta's design is a lot murkier and can be taken a lot of different ways. Saying all the people complaining about it havent played the game or dont understand it is desingenuous.

 

[Cloyster]

Nah Bayonetta's design is a lot murkier and can be taken a lot of different ways. Saying all the people complaining about it havent played the game or dont understand it is desingenuous.

No, I'm talking specifically about the people who complain about her without having played it.

 

[wyrdwad]

The problem here is a cultural disconnect and understanding of Idol Culture. Like check out the #FE threads. As also seen in here, folks have a strong distaste for Idol Culture. Which kind of strikes me funny, because there's really has been no Idol games released here outside of Omega Quintet or Neptunia PP. Both which arent exactly quality games either.

A lack of understanding is not a valid justification for complaints of this nature IMHO. Educate yo'selves before you post!

Idol culture in Japan certainly can have sexual connotations to it, but it's generally one of the few places where true moe still thrives -- and true moe is inherently nonsexual, based more on the concept of making one adore a character or persona for his/her innocence, appealing to one's paternal/maternal instincts rather than trying to incite lustful thoughts.

I'm a huge proponent of moe culture, and a huge opponent of the sexualization of moe, so I find sexualizing idol outfits like this to be less an indictment of the outfit design and more an indictment of the person criticizing it. The outfit is not sexual; rather, it is the criticizer who is sexualizing it.

-Tom

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Like people who complain about Bayonetta without understand her or the game.

You say this, but then you seemingly criticized P4D's take on idol culture without apparently having played its story.

 

[Cloyster]

You say this, but then you seemingly criticized P4D's take on idol culture without apparently having played its story.

I have.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I have.

Then how does it glorify idol life? It doesn't explore both the positives and the negatives?

 

[Cloyster]

Then how does it glorify idol life? It doesn't explore both the positives and the negatives?

It does explore both, but I think in the end, it picks a side. I'm not automatically saying "glorify" is a negative.

 

[NathanS]

A lack of understanding is not a valid justification for complaints of this nature IMHO. Educate yo'selves before you post!

Idol culture in Japan certainly can have sexual connotations to it, but it's generally one of the few places where true moe still thrives -- and true moe is inherently nonsexual, based more on the concept of making one adore a character or persona for his/her innocence, appealing to one's paternal/maternal instincts rather than trying to incite lustful thoughts.

I'm a huge proponent of moe culture, and a huge opponent of the sexualization of moe, so I find sexualizing idol outfits like this to be less an indictment of the outfit design and more an indictment of the person criticizing it. The outfit is not sexual; rather, it is the criticizer who is sexualizing it.

-Tom

It is however served up with a huge dose of "we should control woman's sexuality" as any hint that an idol might not be a virgin or even dating leading to outrage shows. Not to say that the US is that much better, look at how people react to "pop star acts adult", but there is a very disturbing stark of sexuality in idol and moe, just in the more "control it all cost" direction.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I feel like people weren't anywhere near as critical of idol culture back when Persona 4 first came out in 2008 considering how many people critical of moe culture did and still love the game. Maybe people just weren't exposed to the shadier side of it, which may not have even been as well-known in Japan at the time. They were just depicted as standard pop stars no better or worse than the ones you find all over the world.

It is however served up with a huge dose of "we should control woman's sexuality" as any hint that an idol might not be a virgin or even dating leading to outrage shows. Not to say that the US is that much better, look at how people react to "pop star acts adult", but there is a very disturbing stark of sexuality in idol and moe, just in the more "control it all cost" direction.

There are definitely aspects of idol culture like that which are problematic. That's usually more about the fanbase than anything else, and fanbases should never be used as a barometer to judge a product.

 

[wyrdwad]

It is however served up with a huge dose of "we should control woman's sexuality" as any hint that an idol might not be a virgin or even dating leading to outrage shows. Not to say that the US is that much better, look at how people react to "pop star acts adult", but there is a very disturbing stark of sexuality in idol and moe, just in the more "control it all cost" direction.

To be fair, though, that goes both ways. Boy idols and boy-bands are also scandalized for any sexual activity, implied or otherwise.

And again, I think that applies to performers here as well. No pubescent (or even prepubescent) girl wants One Direction to have ever had sex before, because they belong to HER, dammit.

-Tom

 

[The Technomancer]

There are definitely aspects of idol culture like that which are problematic. That's usually more about the fanbase than anything else, and fanbases should never be used as a barometer to judge a product.

But Idol culture exists for its fanbase though. We shouldn't judge Adventure Time for the Rule 34 fanart out there because clearly the show isn't aimed at those people, but idol culture as a business sustains itself precisely because of its fans, and the industry is totally complicit in helping "sell" that fantasy

 

[Morrigan Stark]

so I find sexualizing idol outfits like this to be less an indictment of the outfit design and more an indictment of the person criticizing it. The outfit is not sexual; rather, it is the criticizer who is sexualizing it.

Oh dear...

 

[Ryaaan14]

I'm an adult, if I want porn I'll find it.

Polluting the media and art I consume with it is not desirable.

Your argument is weak as fuck. Adding sexuality to something doesn't place it in the same category as porn. Porn is people fucking for the sole purpose of masturbation. Sexuality in media is meant to be enticing, just as people may enjoy comedy or violence.

 

[wyrdwad]

Oh dear...

If you disagree, please explain why. I feel it's a fair point. The outfit is not inherently sexual -- I legitimately did not (and still do not) see it as even remotely sexual or objectifying in any way. The only thing that makes it sexual is the perception that miniskirts and thigh-highs are inherently sexual objects -- something with which I strongly disagree.

That being the case, I think it's fair to say that it is not the outfit which is inappropriate, but the reactions to that outfit. To believe otherwise is essentially no different than victim shaming -- it's the equivalent of saying, "Well, she asked for it because of the way she was dressed."

It is one's own social perceptions which shape what one feels to be "inappropriate." And I believe that in this case, the outfit's intent was entirely innocent -- therefore, it is only those who view it as a sexual outfit who can be rightfully accused of sexualizing the character.

-Tom

 

[IronicTonic]

If anything it keeps me playing games. Theres nothing wrong with a little bit of fanservice especially since most games have it nowadays, its not about what the characters wear or how they act that should make a game enjoyable, the game itself should do that. Any further sexy bits is just icing on the cake. Besides, for games such as Persona, they help build up character dynamics.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

Your argument is weak as fuck. Adding sexuality to something doesn't place it in the same category as porn. Porn is people fucking for the sole purpose of masturbation. Sexuality in media is meant to be enticing, just as people may enjoy comedy or violence.

No. If you read back the consensus from the detracotrs is that fan service in games is explicitly in here for the sole purpose of basement dwellers and otakus to masterbate to.

 

[MrRudiMentary]

I'm not against sex or sexuality or attractive characters in games. I'm against lingering close ups of breasts and panty shots. They break the fourth wall and it just takes me out of whatever I'm playing.

 

[Ryaaan14]

No. If you read back the consensus from the detracotrs is that fan service in games is explicitly in here for the sole purpose of basement dwellers and otakus to masterbate to.

Sounds like a problem with the user, not content creator.

 

[igordennis]

No. If you read back the consensus from the detracotrs is that fan service in games is explicitly in here for the sole purpose of basement dwellers and otakus to masterbate to.

Cant say i have read any post in this thread like that. Especifically the otakus and basement dwellers part. Except for you of course that keeps posting this shit to antagonize both sides.

 

[Cloyster]

Cant say i have read any post in this thread like that. Especifically the otakus and basement dwellers part. Except for you of course that keeps posting this shit to antagonize both sides.

There were definitely a few, some subtle, some not.

 

[21XX]

Rise is a good example of why context and intent matters.

On the surface, it cute anime girl in skirt and midfriff exposing top. The mind can jump to conclusions based off of what that can normally mean. Obviously what ever game that is glorifies it and all that jazz. But in reality, it goes over the bad parts of the industry and never overly sexualizes the character (too an extent...Rise is rather thirsty tho) and thus the context of the situation validates it. People often look at stuff with preconcieved notions and judge it as that. Apparently many of the Atelier games are great when it is easy to write them off as moe trash heaps based off the designs. This goes both ways of course (as people dissed realistic designs with no context).

Context, tone, and intent matter. I fucking love Kojima and MGS, but even I went...that is bullshit when Quiet's reasons were explained. The context was poor. MGSV tone is hella more dark than normal. And the intent was obvious...Kojima likes hot women and had the tech to show that off. Nothing is wrong with that really but he wasn't super honest w/ it (outside of the I want people to cosplay that yo). Whereas the Senran Kagura guy, was open and owned up to his perversion fro example.

Basically, it isn't always this cut and dry explanation. Mika makes sense. She is a joshi wrestler stereotype, in SF that exagerrates the hell of our everything. Makes sense. Dragons Crown, also was an exagerration of classic D&D trope done to the MAAAX made sense. If the next Splinter Cell or something, replaces Sam Fisher with Fran Sharker who wears nothing but a bra and hot pants and gun straps...that when it is done wrong.

There is a time and place for anything. You just got to be good at presenting it. I will admit...most suck hard at it.

Except there very much IS something wrong with that. Showing off tech by creating a scantily clad woman who can't even fucking talk is garbage.

 

[BluePigGanon]

I'm not against sex or sexuality or attractive characters in games. I'm against lingering close ups of breasts and panty shots. They break the fourth wall and it just takes me out of whatever I'm playing.

Yeah this is about where I am on it. But if we're just talking attractive characters in skimpy outfits or whatever, I don't care. Game creators should make whatever game they want and fill it with whatever content they want. This feels like the first generation in my life that is somehow getting more prudish, rather than less.

 

[SixMachine]

But Idol culture exists for its fanbase though. We shouldn't judge Adventure Time for the Rule 34 fanart out there because clearly the show isn't aimed at those people, but idol culture as a business sustains itself precisely because of its fans, and the industry is totally complicit in helping "sell" that fantasy

I know you have quite the hatred for idol culture (I'm indifferent) but the whole purpose of a lot of entertainment is to sell a fantasy and it isn't unique to idol culture. Bieber fans had a whole shitstorm when that one woman took a picture of him sleeping after spending a night with him, and a lot of people were making excuse or what-ifs to basically deny it. A lot of shows play up fantasies for the fans. CW shows were mentioned in this thread, we already know they pander a lot. Avatar The Last Airbender creators definitely know about shipping and the fantasies fans have, that's why there was so much crappy relationship drama in the show. Comics obviously play it up to the fans by giving them fanservice all varieties. Not all entertainment is the kind of art where they say, "fuck the fans", they know who is eating this stuff up and they want them to keep doing it. The whole point anything from entertainment is because of fans and fanservice, sexual and non-sexual, play into that.

 

[Ohmygoditsjrod]

There were definitely a few, some subtle, some not.

Thank you.

 

[wyrdwad]

Except there very much IS something wrong with that. Showing off tech by creating a scantily clad woman who can't even fucking talk is garbage.

You find it distasteful, and so do I to an extent. But if that's the character he wished to create to show off the tech, it is entirely his privilege as an artist to do so. Those who dislike it are free to "vote with their wallets" and simply not buy the game.

There should be no problem with this. It is the system, and the system works.

-Tom

 

[cosmicblizzard]

But Idol culture exists for its fanbase though. We shouldn't judge Adventure Time for the Rule 34 fanart out there because clearly the show isn't aimed at those people, but idol culture as a business sustains itself precisely because of its fans, and the industry is totally complicit in helping "sell" that fantasy

What that fantasy entails varies between the fanbase and the production crew. The unwritten rules in idol culture apply to every pop industry in the world. Read AKB49.

And fun fact, Pendelton Ward is friends with people that have made some pretty hardcore Adventure Time rule 34.

 

[Li Kao]

Cant say i have read any post in this thread like that. Especifically the otakus and basement dwellers part. Except for you of course that keeps posting this shit to antagonize both sides.

With all due respect, you can't even say 'I respect the other side opinion' without adding some passive agressiveness to it. You are the last person to speak against antagonizing people. For real.

I mean, you write things like...

I just want to say thank god this view is shared by a very small minority who was naturally attracted by this thread. It would make reading this forum unbearable to me, i respect your opinion but reading something so far off my world view is still jarring. Thankfully (for me) the reveal threads of those games are full of praise for the designs.

That personality thing though is of course just straight up unalduterated bullshit as eden has shown. Just dont give your opinion on something you have no knowledge on folks.

And you complain about antagonizing people ? Serious ?

 

[Moral Panic]

Because... it doesn't imply sexuality in any way? They're perfectly valid clothing choices that are only sexual when contextualized as sexual.

In this case, it's very clear that the outfit is worn to make the character look "cute" as opposed to "sexy," which is a very Japanese concept -- especially for an idol singer. The goal is not to entice the lustful gazes of men, but to dazzle the senses during a dance performance.

Maybe it's just a Japanese thing, I dunno, but that outfit is honestly MODEST for an idol singer. I've seen servers at family restaurants wearing sexier things than that.

-Tom

LOL I can't believe what I am reading

 

[Mik317]

Except there very much IS something wrong with that. Showing off tech by creating a scantily clad woman who can't even fucking talk is garbage.

ehhh This goes back into the whole "artistic freedom" mess that I don't want to derail the thread into that again.

agree to disagree.

 

[21XX]

You find it distasteful, and so do I to an extent. But if that's the character he wished to create to show off the tech, it is entirely his privilege as an artist to do so. Those who dislike it are free to "vote with their wallets" and simply not buy the game.

There should be no problem with this. It is the system, and the system works.

-Tom

Yes, if no one bought MGS5, objectification of women in games would cease to exist.

The system does not work like that. Quiet was only a piece of the whole -- a piece that I find absolutely ridiculous and, honestly, shameful -- but I'm not going to chastise people for buying and playing the game because they're able to look past her.

And sure, Kojima as an artist does have the right to create what he wants, but there is a question of "can" and "should."

 

[Puruzi]

Artists should be able to create whatever they want.

 

[Moral Panic]

Artists should be able to create whatever they want.

And people should be able to criticise those creations.

 

[wyrdwad]

LOL I can't believe what I am reading

That's not a response.

Please elaborate and explain why you can't believe it, as comments like this accomplish nothing otherwise.

And sure, Kojima as an artist does have the right to create what he wants, but there is a question of "can" and "should."

I disagree. A true artist always follows his/her heart, the public be damned. I would never hesitate to include material in a work of my own that I felt might be seen as objectionable by some if that was something I truly felt belonged in my work -- and I could never fully respect any artist who would.

As the old saying goes, "You do you."

That doesn't mean an artist is above criticism, but there's a difference between criticizing a work and saying that work should not exist. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't have the right to exist and be enjoyed by those who do. You don't have to understand something, or even approve of it, in order to accept it and respect the rights of the one who created it.

-Tom

 

[Mik317]

And people should be able to criticise those creations.

no one is saying otherwise?

The issue generally is what people expect that criticism to do...mainly get rid of the thing they are criticizing. That's where the push back comes from.

 

[Quonny]

And people should be able to criticise those creations.

Absolutely. But people should not judging those who think differently than them. I see a lot of judging with this topic.

 

[Puruzi]

And people should be able to criticise those creations.

That's fine, but you shouldn't ask it to be changed or removed, as that's bullshit.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

And people should be able to criticise those creations.

And people should be able to criticize those criticisms. That's called a discussion.