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The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
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Messofanego
Banned
It's kind of sad we can have more empathy for inanimate technical things like graphics or framerates but can't deal with other humans.
In brain surgery, yes (although, at some point age will catch up to them and nullify the experience advantage).
In evaluating an art product? Fuck no. A broad perspective will trump a "specialized narrow one" in this case. The composition matters, as does the member knowledge, of course.
GeordieMark
Member
I'm a bit late, but can anyone point me in the direction of where one would go to qualify as a game critic?
You first have to graduate from University with a 1st in Game Criticism, then you have to pretend stuff like Game Awards actually matters.
EatinOlives
Member
Indeed. I'm not one to talk about "first world problems lul", but just look at the proportions of people in this thread going "goddamn why does everything have to be a controversy?!?!?" vs. the people legitimately having a fierce controversy in all the other outrage threads (Uncharted 3 review thread fiasco, anyone?).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
No.
No it's not.
You can't just enter a conversation, make a completely hostile comment with obviously no regard to the context, and then just leave.
Opinions are only valid in discussion if you actually want to discuss.
HUELEN10
Member
According to this, 9 out of 10 registered nurses are female...
http://uk.businessinsider.com/pink-collar-jobs-dominated-by-women-2015-2?r=US&IR=T
If they had to select a panel of nurses would people lose their shit if the majority were female? No, that's just the way it is, it's currently skewed one way and there's no point trying to force a 50/50 selection. And it's currently the same with games jounalists, even if we don't like it that way. Get over it.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/pink-collar-jobs-dominated-by-women-2015-2?r=US&IR=T
If they had to select a panel of nurses would people lose their shit if the majority were female? No, that's just the way it is, it's currently skewed one way and there's no point trying to force a 50/50 selection. And it's currently the same with games jounalists, even if we don't like it that way. Get over it.
Well pretty much this. I see nothing wrong for have more guys than girls on a game jury if they were chosen by their qualification. I see something wrong if woman are picked just because they are woman.
What kind of qualification is needed to do this job, making it necessary for 94% of the jurors to be male?
I tend to agree with Amused. Are the panel of nurses evaluating an art product? If so, then broader perspectives that are more representative of the art product's audience would be good.
Otherwise, that comparison doesn't seem valid to me.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They should encourage more diversity in their profession and promoting the opinion of the minority within would be a start.
"It's just the way it is" and "get over it" sound like the perfect way to change gender and diversity discrepancies though.
GeordieMark
Member
This 'qualified' talk is complete bollocks. The only possible qualifications required are having played the nominated games and being able to put your thoughts into words. A child could do it.
Poor Geoff, and he thought he made something meaningful.
Alias03
Member
I find this really hard to believe. For the record I have nothing against women being on the panel. Unless you're gonna including super casual games like cell phone games (Candy Crush) that my 10 year old nieces play that number has to be way off.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
...... why?
Nice way of trying to twist my argument, well done. I'm not saying it's a good thing, far from it as there should be more female games journalists but sadly there aren't right now. But when you have an industry that is dominated by one gender, trying to force a panel of 50/50 makes no sense.
BlastProcessing
Member
Do you think there are more than 32 people are qualified to be on that jury? There are already criteria in place that goes beyond pure industry experience as is. Do you have a problem with the current jury because of that?
But than again, not many are actually screaming for a 50/50 m/f jury.
How about starting with not having a 94/6 jury.
Chû Totoro
Member
This.
If we start like this then we need to have % of each minority then... why only gender, and why not about sexual orientation? Seriously this starts to be a little too crazy imo. People acting like they care and they do things but they just making noise -_-
If some women are more qualified and were available then it's a shame (again same for minorities). If we want everyone on earth to be seen as equal we have to be smart enough to understand that in some cases the representation of population cannot be copy / pasted just because we want to pretend like it's how things work.
All this makes me think of every caricatural Miss America (or any country) saying "war is bad, I want peace everywhere on earth".
Again it depends if some in the jury were chosen instead of a woman because of their gender but I don't think so.
Don't know, ask the sites that picked the people that's going to the event. To me it doesn't making difference at all the gender of the people chosen.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You weren't saying it was a good thing you were belittling the issue. There are definitely more female journalists than 2.
Don't even remind me about "censorship". I saw Gaf's outrage over the Mika ass slap. People really need to take a hard look at what they consider important to be outraged over and what they belittle. It says a lot about their own priorities and sensibilities.
But why should we discuss how much women take up the consumer base when it argues against their preconceived notions? Obvi we can't tell the cold hard truth to them in the first place. I mean, there are studies out there (that I'm pretty sure Gaf has had topics about) showing that women actually own more consoles than men do now too. That study still placed it somewhat close but women had a strong majority.
It's a joke until people say more women should be represented. Then it has to be taken seriously and talked down about with numerous drive-by posts, I guess.
SubiyaCryolite
Banned
Qualification is the wrong word, experience is better. But experience in what? If its written reviews then that should clear all the confusion. Apart from Keza McDonald and another lady who used to write for IGN I cant think of any prominent female reviewers across all the sites I frequent (IGN, Gamespot, Eurogamer, PCGamer, Youtube in general).
AnyoneInCherno
Member
I don't want to have a 50/50 gender split just for the sake of having one. Sometimes men happen to be better than women, sometimes women happen to be better than men. It'll be different every year. But I'm sorry, I just can't believe that women are only better at their job 1/16th of the time when it comes to this board. There are plenty of fantastic female writers out there. 2/32 is bullshit.
Alias03
Member
Because it's a male dominated hobby. I've been close to the industry for over 15 years, I see the people who buy/play the kinda games the Video Game Awards are showcasing. I would say that more and more women/girls are getting into gaming now, but not almost half.
spazchicken
Member
Are we counting Candy Crush in this? Last time I saw an EVO event, I didn't see 50% women competing or in attendance. Last time I went to a Gamestop, I didn't see 50% women in line or checking out the games shelves. The last time I went to an indie game developer meet up in my local area, I didn't see 50% women showing off their latest builds. The last time I talked with a female at my job about videogames she told me she used to play Super Mario Kart on SNES and hasn't touched a game since. I can't bump into a guy at work who hasn't at least played the latest Madden or Call of Duty or isn't super excited about Fall Out 4.
I'm not saying that I don't know a few gamers who happen to be women, but where are all these gamer chicks you guys keep talking about that are supposedly falling out of the sky?
And I'm not saying I'm not for equality either, but it seems like some people are trying to force something that isn't there. Just because journalism is a profession that has a good mix of both sexes doesn't mean that all journalists are qualified to, or even interested in writing about games.
This and the fact most of the press is also male focused (yea more women would be good but they shouldn't just be picked to make the numbers even)
I disagree
http://segmentnext.com/2015/11/04/r...&utm_campaign=Feed:+Segmentnext+(SegmentNext)
From a topic that exploded on Gaf with attempts to dismiss the source's findings that showed more women owned consoles than men. Women constantly have to play a "prove it" game in this culture and it's really dumb that that's the case. Some don't even bother trying to make it visible at all that they do precisely because of the toxic backlash that happens when this "male-dominated market" learns that their market isn't as male dominated as they'd like to believe. Why a fun hobby needs to be made into a boy's club in the first place is beyond me but the hoops some people make us women go through is ridiculous. Almost half is frankly accurate as any study will show you. Some even show a reverse on the "male-dominated" assumption.
As for arguing on personal experience: That's largely meaningless. Most people I know and have seen game are women. So therefore our personal experiences obviously negate each other.
No, it's most definitely not.
But it's 32 men and I think that's not fine and they probably didn't even pick the best journos for the job. They picked the obvious ones for The Game Awards like most sites do.
Plenty of female talent out there will never get a chance to write or be invited to these events because they are not wanted there.
CaviarMeths
Member
That's purely anecdotal though. I wouldn't be surprised that extremely violent games where you play as a white male are mostly played by white males, but the industry is much, much larger than that.
My favorites series are Zelda and Final Fantasy. I'd be willing to stake money on both of those series being close to a 50/50 split.
Not a lot of money. Like $20. My mom says gambling is bad.
Kat Bailey is a great call. I loved her on Active Time Babble and she's got a ton of game knowledge.
People need to remember this is Geoff's Game Award... this is not THE industry or THE people awards... It's 100% Geoff stuff.
If Geoff want turn this Award something more than his personal award... he need to pay more attention in the selection of juries.
So let's rename The Game Awards for Geoff's Game Awards
If Geoff want turn this Award something more than his personal award... he need to pay more attention in the selection of juries.
So let's rename The Game Awards for Geoff's Game Awards
If you want anecdotes, the only local friend I know owns an actual NES/SNES is a woman. The only friends I remember talking about, playing, and being excited about, Fallout 4 on my Facebook feed are women. One of them was talking about a new exploit they found involving companions. I don't know any guy friends who have been talking about that.
Everyone's exposure is different.
And there are definitely more than 30 male journalists. Your point? There is currently a huge majority, which is the sad truth.
TBiddy
Member
If there's any form of evidence pointing to discrimination, this is of course a big issue. If not, I think this is a bit overblown.
Killscreens attitude about a FORCED 50/50 split is just weird. That doesn't have anything to do with equality. I don't think women would appreciate the fact, that they are only on the board in order to reach a certain threshold.
Killscreens attitude about a FORCED 50/50 split is just weird. That doesn't have anything to do with equality. I don't think women would appreciate the fact, that they are only on the board in order to reach a certain threshold.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
So let's do something about it and start with promoting female journalists, idk maybe by making them jurors in some award show or something.
Jesus Christ people, stop talking about qualifications and expertise, it has nothing to do with this. The fact that so many are suggesting that the selected members of the gaming press (that's a stretch to say the least) are there because they're 'qualified' or 'more qualified' is nonsense.
All they have done is select the largest reaching online or offline publications or websites that extensively cover games and asked them for a representative. For example, as I am reasonably familiar with the structure of their staff, Gametrailers has Brandon Jones as Editor-in-Chief, he reviews a great number of games, and VOs all the reviews. Of course he will want to do it himself. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case in a great deal of the representatives.
What this situation does show however, is that there is a disproportionate amount of men in charge or in positions of power within these outlets. Over time this will change with newer outlets becoming more popular and becoming more diverse in their staff (due to gaming being equally popular among genders)
All they have done is select the largest reaching online or offline publications or websites that extensively cover games and asked them for a representative. For example, as I am reasonably familiar with the structure of their staff, Gametrailers has Brandon Jones as Editor-in-Chief, he reviews a great number of games, and VOs all the reviews. Of course he will want to do it himself. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case in a great deal of the representatives.
What this situation does show however, is that there is a disproportionate amount of men in charge or in positions of power within these outlets. Over time this will change with newer outlets becoming more popular and becoming more diverse in their staff (due to gaming being equally popular among genders)
"Pick the best 32 for the job". Picking the best at what exactly?
The Game Awards are setting up a team, and when you set up a team you want people that are good at all the different things needed to produce the best results - making the team as good as possible.
When you are evaluating an art product and trying to pick "the best one", a broad perspective will trump a narrow one. The composition of the jury matters, and in this case I would say diversity represent a quality in and of itself.
Thus the selection process chosen, the one leading to 94 % men and 6 % women, was flawed. The team ended up worse than it could have been, and as a result I belive the product they produce will be less valuable than it could have been.
The Game Awards are setting up a team, and when you set up a team you want people that are good at all the different things needed to produce the best results - making the team as good as possible.
When you are evaluating an art product and trying to pick "the best one", a broad perspective will trump a narrow one. The composition of the jury matters, and in this case I would say diversity represent a quality in and of itself.
Thus the selection process chosen, the one leading to 94 % men and 6 % women, was flawed. The team ended up worse than it could have been, and as a result I belive the product they produce will be less valuable than it could have been.
EdwardTeach
Member
Agreed. It should be obvious to anyone that there are far fewer girls into games than boys. I have a few female friends who like (or used to like) videogames, but relatively far far fewer than guys. It slightly annoys me when you see 50% or more than 50% of gamers being bandied about when it doesn't match reality, and also masks the fact there are not enough women enjoying "core" games.
That doesn't mean we need to encourage the gender divide (my 5yr daughter loves videogames), but an artificial gender allocation is not the way to go. Fewer gamers are woman, hence most games journalists are men. There are some female critics that I really rate, but they would struggle to find enough decent female journalist to split the panel 50:50.
Can we please get the attempts to dismiss women existing in gaming out? Like seriously, going for Candy Crush, right away? Are you serious? That argument is really annoying to see on a daily basis. "Women aren't real gamers, those numbers showing they're equal to us are just them playing Candy Crush, other mobile games, and facebook!" By bringing up the Candy Crush card, it really colors your post like that for me and I'd honestly rather not think or have anyone's posts colored like that.
Say it with me: Personal experiences are largely meaningless compared to large scale and everyone's personal experiences will vary anyway.
We're all over the place. Either you don't see us or well, you don't see us. Many of us don't talk about games in the first place because of how damn toxic the gaming community is to us.
Indie game scene is full of female devs, arguing that some random indie dev meet-up thing in your local area had few devs makes no sense really considering the scale of indie-game development. Women are all over game development in general. Hell, early gaming had numerous female pioneers that the industry owes quite a lot to, like Roberta Williams.
I see equal amounts of women and men at my game stores so, I don't know. You aren't going at the right times, I suppose.
E-sports in general cultivate a "boys club" environment, so. Same with these awards shows. To argue that the numerous female game journalists out-there lack the "qualifications" (whatever those may be in whatever vague way you're arguing) is just absurd. People aren't forcing what isn't there. People are trying to wake people up to the reality of this community in the first place and many are desiring to fight against that because of their boy's club mentalities.
Turin Turambar
Member
Not exactly surprising. I think we can suppose most game journalists are men (do we have real stats?) so a random sample of them will give you a mostly-men jury list.
TBiddy
Member
That's not what he's arguing. He's saying, that not all journalists are good at writing about games.
..................In reference to a topic about the lack of female journalist representation on this jury panel. It's very much what they were arguing. That the journalists lack the qualifications. You are literally saying that he is arguing what I read he argued.
Most are men, yea. A listing was already shared earlier of major sites. That doesn't mean we couldn't have had a little bit more diverse representation considering the number of women who do write about games fairly well isn't exactly just 2.
TBiddy
Member
That's a rather big strawman, you're presenting here.
He literally wrote, that not all journalists are interested in or capable of writing about games. You twisted that and made it sound like he argued that all female journalists were incapble of writing about games:
To argue that the numerous female game journalists out-there lack the "qualifications" (whatever those may be in whatever vague way you're arguing) is just absurd.
And that isn't what he wrote.
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