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[Enter the Dragon Punch]

https://twitter.com/tyronerodriguez/statuses/667557681670942721

straight from a founder of nicalis

i'm gonna be pretty upset if they axe the vita version. that's where i enjoy playing it the most... i'd settle for a delay, but outright cancellation?

in similar news, edmund has stopped mentioning the vita version of afterbirth in general on his twitter, now only talking about the ps4 version for this holiday.

thump my bible if old

 

[marrec]

Noooo! I need Afterbirth on my Vita! It's the only platform I'm good at now.

I'm still having fun with it on PC but... still...

 

[Stone Ocean]

Understandable, the Vita version could barely run Rebirth, let alone Afterbirth with all the new shit on screen.

Wii U though?

 

[Oreoleo]

Is it just a matter of not wanting to put more money upfront to get the ports working properly, or something more inherent with the engine? Binding of Isaac doesn't strike me as the kind of game that should be very power hungry..

Edit: I was confusing Rebirth with Afterbirth, which makes this all the more perplexing. Isn't the add-on just more items and stuff?

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Understandable, the Vita version could barely run Rebirth, let alone Afterbirth with all the new shit on screen.

Wii U though?

Vita version runs perfectly fine for me and I've put dozens of hours into it.

Maybe these 3 versions just didn't sell enough, so they're cutting what fat they can? N3DS is the only one I can believe couldn't handle Afterbirth properly even with tuning

 

[2+2=5]

Sounds fishy, i can understand that for some reason(lack of skills since it's a very basic 2d game) it doesn't run well 3ds and maybe on vita, but wiiu? I think he just doesn't want to make it on those platforms.

 

[notaskwid]

Guess I won't be playing it then.

 

[Celegus]

No Vita? Guess I don't get to play it after all....

 

[Nightbird]

Sounds fishy, i can understand that for some reason(lack of skills since it's a very basic 2d game) it doesn't run well 3ds and maybe on vita, but wiiu? I think he just doesn't want to make it on those platforms.

Yah, seems like it.

 

[TheMoon]

Well. Nicalis gonna Nicalis.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Vita version runs perfectly fine for me and I've put dozens of hours into it.

Maybe these 3 versions just didn't sell enough, so they're cutting what fat they can? N3DS is the only one I can believe couldn't handle Afterbirth properly even with tuning

It ran significantly worse than the PS4/PC versions. Vita version chugged once you started getting some of the bigger item combos, I can't imagine the game holding up once you get stuff like Brimstone rubber cement Tammy Head

 

[Notor!ousG]

Can anyone explain to me why handhelds have so many problems running this game? Doesn't seem like a very demanding game.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Can anyone explain to me why handhelds have so many problems running this game? Doesn't seem like a very demanding game.

crazy item combos

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Glad I didn't purchase this on a Nintendo platform.

 

[Palette Swap]

A bit annoying as Vita was really the ultimate BoI experience for me. Honestly, of the time I spent platinuming Rebirth, the split was 95% Vita and 5% PS4.

 

[MUnited83]

Well, even if Afterbirth came to the Vita, it woult take until 2020 to see it released in EU and 2023 to have patches for it release in the US on 2016.

 

[Nere]

That is so sad. The game suits vita so much hope they find a way to make it work.

 

[Occam]

Sounds like bad programming. Vita now has 30% more memory available to devs than it had when they created Binding of Isaac Rebirth.

Isn't the PC version very buggy, too?

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

Sounds like bad programming. Vita now has more memory available to devs than it had when they created Binding of Isaac Rebirth.

Isn't the PC version very buggy, too?

Yes

 

[Notor!ousG]

crazy item combos

What am I watching?

I own the game on Steam and it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[thomasmahler]

Is it just a matter of not wanting to put more money upfront to get the ports working properly, or something more inherent with the engine? Binding of Isaac doesn't strike me as the kind of game that should be very power hungry..

Edit: I was confusing Rebirth with Afterbirth, which makes this all the more perplexing. Isn't the add-on just more items and stuff?

It just depends on what engine they're using and how well it's suited for this and that.

Just cause you make a game with 8bit pixel sprites in Unity doesn't mean that it'll run on a NES. I'm guessing they just never optimized the engine that they're running this stuff on.

 

[Stinkdeken]

Vita version runs perfectly fine for me and I've put dozens of hours into it.

Maybe these 3 versions just didn't sell enough, so they're cutting what fat they can? N3DS is the only one I can believe couldn't handle Afterbirth properly even with tuning

+1

 

[eot]

Sounds like bad programming. Vita now has 30% more memory available to devs than it had when they created Binding of Isaac Rebirth.

Isn't the PC version very buggy, too?

Listen to the expert guys.

 

[pinkurocket]

I was actually waiting for BoI to hit on Wii U, but when I read about the performance issues I passed and bought it in a Steam sale instead. Really a shame it was such a mediocre port, and now the DLC won't ever see the light of day on Nintendo platforms. That while the developer apparently fought so hard with Nintendo for them to accept this game with strong religious themes, perhaps that too was exaggerated just to get more press.

 

[Nights Owl]

Sounds more like:

"Rebirth didn't sell well enough on these systems so we're not going to port Afterbirth to them."

Or...

"We don't have any competent programmers who can optimize".

Which is a shame. I was waiting to buy Afterbirth on n3DS. But now I guess they don't get my sale at all. And I feel like it's a bit scummy to sell Rebirth but no Afterbirth on everything but PS4 (And Xbox1?)

 

[Mpl90]

Tyrone also said that Wii U isn't that much more powerful than Vita.

Eeeeeeeeeh....

 

[dracula_x]

Sounds fishy, i can understand that for some reason(lack of skills since it's a very basic 2d game) it doesn't run well 3ds and maybe on vita, but wiiu? I think he just doesn't want to make it on those platforms.

Yep, neither did I. Wii U is powerful enough for that type of game.

Vita version runs perfectly fine for me and I've put dozens of hours into it.

Maybe these 3 versions just didn't sell enough, so they're cutting what fat they can? N3DS is the only one I can believe couldn't handle Afterbirth properly even with tuning

maybe they shouldn't put Binding of Isaac on PS Plus then.

 

[Pehesse]

Sounds fishy, i can understand that for some reason(lack of skills since it's a very basic 2d game) it doesn't run well 3ds and maybe on vita, but wiiu? I think he just doesn't want to make it on those platforms.

It's disheartening to me to always read the same jump in logic whenever this topic comes up. I'm quoting you, but this is more of a general misconception that pops up very regularly nowadays, lately with Indivisible as well, which has gotten me fairly annoyed, being a 2D artist having to solve optimization issues on a daily basis.

More often that not, the issue stems from a lack of available RAM, not a lack of skill. The fact that the aesthetic is "simple" has no bearing on the amount of memory required to have the game running at all. In the case of Isaac, I presume the game must have some form of keeping an entire run in memory since you can forward/backtrack levels using specific items, which would make memory consumption immediately very high, and that's without considering all other potential RAM-consuming issues (sprite size, animations, etc)

Do note in this case, that's just guesswork based on my own experiences, but you'll also notice the platforms having issues with 2D games are most commonly Vita, 3DS and WiiU. From what I understand, 3DS has 128Mb, Vita has 512Mb and WiiU has 1Gb of available RAM for all purposes, which is fairly limiting as far as 2D games are concerned nowadays, due in no small part to increasing sprite resolutions.

(And just to preemptively adress that question: no, 3D games don't necessarily take up more RAM - or less, for that matter. It all depends on the modelization and texturing techniques. It's quite possible to have 3D games using a lot less RAM than 2D, just as the other way around is possible. The bottom line is, everything in a game needs to be stored in memory, and what matters is the amount you can/want to load/unload at any given time. Some games need to have more stuff available readily than others, depending on the loading methods available, aesthetics and rendering considerations nonwithstanding.

I am also not saying programmer/artist skill is never a factor to consider, just that it shouldn't be the first one you jump to when you try to understand and argue about why something doesn't work the way you expect it to)

 

[Stone Ocean]

maybe they shouldn't put Binding of Isaac on PS Plus then.

So why is PS4 getting Afterbirth then?

 

[mclem]

crazy item combos

That video suggests to me that pixel fill rate can be a massive limiting factor. Wonder if there's a ridiculous amount of overdraw.

 

[mclem]

More often that not, the issue stems from a lack of available RAM, not a lack of skill. The fact that the aesthetic is "simple" has no bearing on the amount of memory required to have the game running at all. In the case of Isaac, I presume the game must have some form of keeping an entire run in memory since you can forward/backtrack levels using specific items, which would make memory consumption immediately very high, and that's without considering all other potential RAM-consuming issues (sprite size, animations, etc)

Speaking personally, I wouldn't use terminology like "not running at a performance level I'm happy with" for issues of running up against RAM limitations. They tend to impact whether you can do something rather more frequently than how well the something runs.

There are exceptions, of course, it's not impossible for there to be ways for RAM to affect performance (if it's constantly having to swap in new sprite tables, for instance), but as a programmer, I wouldn't present such issues the way Rodriguez did.

 

[Chao]

We now need Titan cards to run flash games.

How can it possibly be SO demanding that it can't run on a WiiU? It's not like the system can play Bayonetta 2 or anything.

 

[Stone Ocean]

We now need Titan cards to run flash games.

How can it possibly be SO demanding that it can't run on a WiiU? It's not like the system can play Bayonetta 2 or anything.

It's not a flash game

 

[LAA]

Noooooo!
I've been playing BoI a lot recently on vita in anticipation for just this!
There should really be no problem surely, ESPICIALLY Wii U!

Gonna be disappointed if it doesnt come to Vita this year, never mind not coming to Vita at all!

 

[Pehesse]

Speaking personally, I wouldn't use terminology like "not running at a performance level I'm happy with" for issues of running up against RAM limitations. They tend to impact whether you can do something rather more frequently than how well the something runs.

There are exceptions, of course, it's not impossible for there to be ways for RAM to affect performance (if it's constantly having to swap in new sprite tables, for instance), but as a programmer, I wouldn't present such issues the way Rodriguez did.

I'd argue that's an issue with Twitter requiring an oversimplification of concepts to fit in 140 characters :-D We don't know exactly what he's referring to or the specific issues encountered, just that he used the word "performance" in a single tweet related to how the game... performs.

Just out of curiosity, what other wording would you have used to convey that the game isn't working properly?

 

[BigTastyBurger666]

It's not even on Xbox EU Marketplace....

 

[Gipsy Danger]

We now need Titan cards to run flash games.

How can it possibly be SO demanding that it can't run on a WiiU? It's not like the system can play Bayonetta 2 or anything.

Do you have a link for the Flash version of BoI: Afterbirth? I'd like to try it out.

 

[Warxard]

Sounds fishy, i can understand that for some reason(lack of skills since it's a very basic 2d game) it doesn't run well 3ds and maybe on vita, but wiiu? I think he just doesn't want to make it on those platforms.

Yah, seems like it.

We now need Titan cards to run flash games.

How can it possibly be SO demanding that it can't run on a WiiU? It's not like the system can play Bayonetta 2 or anything.

Look at all of these talented developers.

 

[2+2=5]

It's disheartening to me to always read the same jump in logic whenever this topic comes up. I'm quoting you, but this is more of a general misconception that pops up very regularly nowadays, lately with Indivisible as well, which has gotten me fairly annoyed, being a 2D artist having to solve optimization issues on a daily basis.

More often that not, the issue stems from a lack of available RAM, not a lack of skill. The fact that the aesthetic is "simple" has no bearing on the amount of memory required to have the game running at all. In the case of Isaac, I presume the game must have some form of keeping an entire run in memory since you can forward/backtrack levels using specific items, which would make memory consumption immediately very high, and that's without considering all other potential RAM-consuming issues (sprite size, animations, etc)

Do note in this case, that's just guesswork based on my own experiences, but you'll also notice the platforms having issues with 2D games are most commonly Vita, 3DS and WiiU. From what I understand, 3DS has 128Mb, Vita has 512Mb and WiiU has 1Gb of available RAM for all purposes, which is fairly limiting as far as 2D games are concerned nowadays, due in no small part to increasing sprite resolutions.

(And just to preemptively adress that question: no, 3D games don't necessarily take up more RAM - or less, for that matter. It all depends on the modelization and texturing techniques. It's quite possible to have 3D games using a lot less RAM than 2D, just as the other way around is possible. The bottom line is, everything in a game needs to be stored in memory, and what matters is the amount you can/want to load/unload at any given time. Some games need to have more stuff available readily than others, depending on the loading methods available, aesthetics and rendering considerations nonwithstanding.

I am also not saying programmer/artist skill is never a factor to consider, just that it shouldn't be the first one you jump to when you try to understand and argue about why something doesn't work the way you expect it to)

I understand what you mean and i don't dismiss 2d games and efforts needed for them, but Vita with it's 512mb ram + 128mb vram is capable of games like Dragon's Crown and other Vanillaware games, Rayman Legends/Origins and others.

Take also in account that Vita screen is just 960x544, it means that those BOI tiny sprites you see on screen are really tiny(and with very few colors, so they could probably use few indexed colors instead of RGB 24bit), rooms are just the same ones with different elements and so on, i don't see the ram being the issue here, imo the problem is a poor spritebatching optimization or more probably collision physics when many bonuses are on screen.

 

[DeSo]

Wii U, really?

 

[Chao]

It's not a flash game

And you don't need a titan to run it either, I was just being hyperbolic.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I remember, back in 2012, Tyrone saying the Wii U is easily a system his team could work on for the next five years without breaking a sweat. In reality, he probably just doesn't want to spend the resources needed to make this expansion work on the platform. And if I'm wrong (I very well could be) and it really cannot perform well on the system, this should have been addressed to potential consumers before the base game launched on Wii U. I mean, everyone knew this expansion was in development and it was assumed it would be releasing on all platforms.

My hope for The 90's Arcade Racer on Wii U continues its slow death.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Vita is multiple Wii Us duct taped together confirmed.

 

[mclem]

I'd argue that's an issue with Twitter requiring an oversimplification of concepts to fit in 140 characters :-D We don't know exactly what he's referring to or the specific issues encountered, just that he used the word "performance" in a single tweet related to how the game... performs.

Well, that's rather my point, in that unless to results in having to swap content in and out of RAM continually, I really wouldn't describe RAM issues as one of 'performance' at all. Whenever I banged my head against RAM limitations, it would result in the whole thing crashing.

Besides, I was under the impression it wasn't a terribly big game (in pure data terms, I mean). I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing could fit in the Wii U's RAM pool without requiring any swapping at all.

Just out of curiosity, what other wording would you have used to convey that the game isn't working properly?

If it were RAM, I'd probably go for something like this:

in other news, evaluating Afterbirth for Wii U, new 3DS and PS Vita. Struggling to fit new content in memory. Outlook NOT good

As I mentioned upthread, my gut reaction is that it's a fill-rate issue, although that's purely based on the amount of overdraw that appears to be the case in the most graphically intensive sections. Without really knowing the ways the performance is lacking, it's hard to be too certain.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I understand what you mean and i don't dismiss 2d games and efforts needed for them, but Vita with it's 512mb ram + 128mb vram is capable of games like Dragon's Crown and other Vanillaware games, Rayman Legends/Origins and others.

Take also in account that Vita screen is just 960x544, it means that those BOI tiny sprites you see on screen are really tiny(and with very few colors, so they could probably use few indexed colors instead of RGB 24bit), rooms are just the same ones with different elements and so on, i don't see the ram being the issue here, imo the problem is a poor spritebatching optimization or more probably collision physics when many bonuses are on screen.

How many of those games have a billion things happening on screen at the same time? The fact that the Vita can run them says nothing for Afterbirth, being pretty games does not mean they are taxing on the hardware.

 

[Pehesse]

Well, that's rather my point, in that unless to results in having to swap content in and out of RAM continually, I really wouldn't describe RAM issues as one of 'performance' at all. Whenever I banged my head against RAM limitations, it would result in the whole thing crashing.

Besides, I was under the impression it wasn't a terribly big game (in pure data terms, I mean). I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing could fit in the Wii U's RAM pool without requiring any swapping at all.



If it were RAM, I'd probably go for something like this:


As I mentioned upthread, my gut reaction is that it's a fill-rate issue, although that's purely based on the amount of overdraw that appears to be the case in the most graphically intensive sections. Without really knowing the ways the performance is lacking, it's hard to be too certain.

Fair enough!

And I agree, we're speculating about what's happening here, as we don't know exactly what he's referring to.
What I posted about, and what I'm mostly taking issue with are the common reactions and claims of incompetency which basically amounts to writing "lazy devs", as seen above, when there are many other technical issues to consider.

I understand what you mean and i don't dismiss 2d games and efforts needed for them, but Vita with it's 512mb ram + 128mb vram is capable of games like Dragon's Crown and other Vanillaware games, Rayman Legends/Origins and others.

Take also in account that Vita screen is just 960x544, it means that those BOI tiny sprites you see on screen are really tiny(and with very few colors, so they could probably use few indexed colors instead of RGB 24bit), rooms are just the same ones with different elements and so on, i don't see the ram being the issue here, imo the problem is a poor spritebatching optimization or more probably collision physics when many bonuses are on screen.

See above, related to your first message and its wording.

(And just about Dragon's Crown and Rayman, they're pretty unrelated examples as their detailed aesthetics have no relation to the animation technique they use, which is fairly simple, and lack many of the visual effects and physics which could be the cause of Isaac's problems - see mclem's posts above. Also, they're both examples of very short levels requiring very little stored in memory at all times, etc... you get the idea :-D The fact that the Vita can run these says nothing about a game like Isaac, which has a whole other set of concerns altogether).

 

[Maedhros]

How many of those games have a billion things happening on screen at the same time? The fact that the Vita can run them says nothing for Afterbirth, being pretty games does not mean they are taxing on the hardware.

The tone down the number of things happening on the screen. If there's 100 enemies on PC, put 50 on Vita. Tone down the effects.

Kinda like the first port didn't have some effects and more.

 

[Diablohead]

Well. Nicalis gonna Nicalis.

game still isn't on xbox in europe for what I know... why is this a thing in 2015.

 

[Zero²]

Bought Rebirth for my WiiU, simply because I dont game on my PC outside of PoE
I really don't care much if Afterbirth comes or not, seemed like a lame expansion with lots of problems. But that might just be my takeaway from the afterbirth thread.
Anyway, I'm quite happy with it, outside of the eventual crash, but I guess this is par of course when dealing with Nicalis.

 

[dracula_x]

It's not a flash game

It's even better, because Flash is more resource heavy than any other modern framework.