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Can someone explain the anti gun control argument?

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Future

Member
There are lots of guns on the streets already. Strict laws won't remove guns from the streets

Since there are guns on the streets, people should be able to buy their own guns legally to protect themselves

Law abiding citizens won't kill people with them just like they won't kill with knives sold at any store

People with guns will be unfairly put on lists violating privacy. Similar to people that dissent their DNA going on public record unless they are actually committing a crime. Putting a person in the system for owning a gun insinuates they will perform criminal activity for no reason

Guns are American heritage. People have traditions, and use them for hunting and sport along with protection
 

Timeaisis

Member
Where's the right to own a nuclear bomb? Or Tanks?

We don't outline rights to own anything and everything. In America, private property is a negative right. The government is obliged to do no action to your private property, which includes guns and the like. However, some laws are instated to prevent ownership of some of these things (like tanks). Guns, however, are protected in the 2nd amendment. The bill of rights does not grant rights to citizens, it enumerates what cannot be taking away.

Essentially, the gun argument is a property argument. A gun is a piece of property people can legally own. Other things that are illegal to own are not protected in the 2nd amendment. Therefore, I should have the right to own a gun.
 

BokehKing

Banned
Fear and paranoia

You will see the same people say "if I was there I would have pulled out my legal to carry(insert ad naseum gun description here) and those attackers wouldn't have killed anyone"
 

Piggus

Member
I know gaf likes to make fun of people for a hobby they don't understand, but it's not as simple as "I like guns, don't take mah guns." It's the idea that small pieces of legislation, no matter how small, are an infringement of rights and that gun legislation is a slippery slope towards a ban. At least that's the impression I get.

You can't really fault innocent people for not wanting their legally owned property seized by the government. However people who are against ALL legislation, even the common sense stuff like universal background checks, seem extremely paranoid and only make themselves look bad. The NRA does a great job of brainwashing these people into thinking the government is evil and is doing everything it can to "take mah right." The reality is Obama is pro-second amendment, just like most people in the country.
 

entremet

Member
AK-47 were used right?

AKs are banned nationwide.

I'm for sensible gun control, but for this case, I don't anything could've prevented it outside of more aggressive police tactics, similar to what the NYPD enacted after 9/11, which are controversial in their Constitutional limits.
 

Goliath

Member
The true concern is that super strict gun control is just a code word that will make guns pretty much banned. If you make guns so difficult a small select minority of people are the only ones who can get guns, you have pretty much banned them without banning them. It's what has been done in many of these countries we reference with low gun violence.

In the U.S., there is also a real fear that without guns to defend yourself your putting your family at risk.
 

Iorv3th

Member
That's bullshit.
Shooter kills 10. Hero with a concealed weapon stops the dude by killing him.
11 people have died.

Or shooter kills 1 or just wounds someone before being killed or shot by someone else.


A customer who fired back at the suspect who killed two people in a Ga. Highway 20 liquor store Sunday afternoon is being hailed as a hero.

Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett said at a press conference Monday that Todd C. Scott, 44, a resident of Covington, very likely prevented other customers in the store from losing their lives.

Levett said store video from Magnet Bottle Shop showed that the suspect, Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, came in the store Sunday afternoon firing a handgun.

“I believe that if Mr. Scott did not return fire at the suspect then more of those customers would have hit by a gun,” said [Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett]. “It didn’t appear that he cared who he shot or where he was shooting until someone was shooting back at him. So in my opinion he saved other lives in that store.”

Police say a man likely saved the lives of several people when he shot and killed a gunman inside a West Philadelphia barbershop.

A 40-year-old man was inside Falah Barber Shop Inc. on the 600 block of Preston Street shortly before 3 p.m. Sunday when police say he began fighting with another person inside. . . .

The fight quickly escalated and the 40-year-old man took out his gun and opened fire on customers and barbers, police said. , , ,

As he was shooting, another man outside heard the gunfire, ran into the shop and took out his own gun, according to investigators. He then opened fire, striking the 40-year-old man once in the chest. . . .

“The person who responded was a legal gun permit carrier,” said Philadelphia Police Captain Frank Llewellyn. “He responded and I guess he saved a lot of people in there.“

These are from http://crimeresearch.org/2015/04/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/ there is a lot more there.

Now the problem is why do the crazies have the guns in the first place. Stricter control and requiring a class and mental health check might work. But something is causing more people to not care about killing someone and actively go out and do it.

Those wanting to ban guns completely, I could just go to my local gunsmith and have him make one if that were the case. Guy isn't going to stop making guns if they are banned, he would just be able to charge a higher price for his products.


AK-47 were used right?

AKs are banned nationwide.

I'm for sensible gun control, but for this case, I don't anything could've prevented it outside of more aggressive police tactics, similar to what the NYPD enacted after 9/11, which are controversial in their Constitutional limits.

No they were not AK's they were AR's.
 

Chorazin

Member
I guess...

In regard to the rest of the post. I get that you want to protect your family, but i'm sure people in other countries care about their families as well, and they don't have guns.

Because they can't, or won't. I can, and I do. I think I understand your point, but "other countries" have such completely different situations that it's really apples and oranges.
 

Piggus

Member
AK-47 were used right?

AKs are banned nationwide.

I'm for sensible gun control, but for this case, I don't anything could've prevented it outside of more aggressive police tactics, similar to what the NYPD enacted after 9/11, which are controversial in their Constitutional limits.

AKs are not banned nationwide. I own one. However only the semi-auto version is available to civilians unless you pay ~25,000 for a pre-ban one and go through the NFA process. That said, the ones used in the California shooting, assuming they had 30-round magazines, would have been illegal in California.

(edit: same applies for if they used AR-15s)
 

zeemumu

Member
They need to guns to defend themselves from crazy people breaking into their houses or trying to rob them and whatnot, and guns are the easiest way to level the playing field if you're physically weaker than your attacker. Also it's the 2nd amendment so the founding fathers clearly wanted us to have them. And a lot of people equate gun control to taking away all guns.
 
Hypocrisy

90Ravvq.jpg
 

TheTurboFD

Member
That's bullshit.
Shooter kills 10. Hero with a concealed weapon stops the dude by killing him.
11 people have died.

What exactly is bullshit? The fact that people argue about people having weapons wont stop a mass shooting while using the events of mass shootings where the civilians had no weapons as their evidence? Because the only bullshit I see is your shitty reply.
 

Halcyon

Member
AK-47 were used right?

AKs are banned nationwide.

I'm for sensible gun control, but for this case, I don't anything could've prevented it outside of more aggressive police tactics, similar to what the NYPD enacted after 9/11, which are controversial in their Constitutional limits.

AK's aren't banned. You can buy them in semi-automatic configurations just as easily as you having the money to purchase them.

Automatic weapons are mostly banned.
 
Stricter gun control that limits who gets what is something that I am interested in, but giving up all rights to own a firearm is something that I am 100% against. Most of those reasons are my own, but I can think of three arguments for the ownership of firearms among certain types of people that are pretty easy to justify:

For people who live on farms, firearms are almost a necessity. Protecting live stock from predators like wolves, coyotes, raccoon, foxes, and so on is something that you need a rifle for. Traps only work so well, and it is getting to the point where these animals have figured out ways to avoid the majority of them.

For people who live in rural areas where only one or two police officers are available for over 1,800 square miles, firearms are pretty darn close to needed. Either to protect livestock, or in case something crime related actually happened. For many people living in cities, police response is only a phone call and 5 minute wait away. For others, a phone call and a 30 or 45 or even hour long wait is the norm.

For people who count on hunting to make their lives a whole lot easier in winter (basically, seasonal workers who are laid off in winter and hunt for deer to provide food for themselves and family while they do not work - this is something that does actually happen, especially in smaller towns), firearms make their lives a lot easier vs hunting with a bow.

Now, you can read all that and call bullshit or that guns aren't needed, or that getting rid of all firearms would do more good than what it would harm the above people, but to be honest there are good reasons to own firearms beyond the typical hobby/enthusiast argument that many throw around.



Keeping deer populations in reasonable numbers does save human lives.

Even in areas that I have lived in, with avid hunting populations and hundreds of deer killed every hunting season, there are still dozens of car accidents every year involving deer. They are not smart, they do not avoid roads, and they can seriously damage a vehicle and kill somebody in many cases. Going 65mph on a highway at night with a deer sprinting out of the trees 20 feet away, up through the ditch and out onto the road not only can total a car but can also kill anybody and everybody in the vehicle if/when the deer flies up through the windshield and into the actual seating area.

Not to mention the amount of deer that break into farms and destroy gardens, costing hundreds of dollars in damage or lost revenue. That can be the difference in how the family living on a farm lives that winter. Is it going to cause somebody to actually die? No. But it is hardly something to shrug at.

Can deer effectively live in higher numbers without a large impact on human lives? Probably. But the way the system works now is more than effective in saving human lives. It could actually probably be argued somewhat effectively that deer populations could be reduced even further, but that's a debate for a whole new topic.

I have no problem with people owning a double barrel shotgun or bolt action rifle. That's about it for me though.
 
For people who live on farms, firearms are almost a necessity. Protecting live stock from predators like wolves, coyotes, raccoon, foxes, and so on is something that you need a rifle for. Traps only work so well, and it is getting to the point where these animals have figured out ways to avoid the majority of them.

I think this is one reason that gets glossed over because most people, when considering the question of guns, are doing so from an urban perspective, and as dangerous as New York or LA can seem, you probably won't run into a bear during your morning jog. If you live in BFE Wyoming, you're not worried about gang violence; you're concerned with bears and wolves and mountain lions (or coyotes stealing your livestock). A gun is pretty necessary for that (although we're talking long guns like a rifle or shotgun). Hell, my uncle is a pacifist and he keeps a rifle because he lives in the middle of nowhere and bears wander through his property with some frequency. As a city-dweller, that's not something I have much experience with. But it is an important point to consider when you compare the USA to any other major country that has enacted strong gun control laws; Australia, Japan, and western Europe don't have the apex predators that we do in the numbers that we do. We can't dismiss the concerns of people who live in Wyoming just because lunatics in the cities keep shooting each other.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of significantly stiffer gun restrictions than we currently have. But I think that you can't approach the issue from the mindset of "guns have literally nothing of value to offer humans," because that's objectively not true. The value is just very limited to specific situations, most of which don't apply to most people in the country.
 

JordanN

Banned
I know gaf likes to make fun of people for a hobby they don't understand, but it's not as simple as "I like guns, don't take mah guns." It's the idea that small pieces of legislation, no matter how small, are an infringement of rights and that gun legislation is a slippery slope towards a ban. At least that's the impression I get.

You can't really fault innocent people for not wanting their legally owned property seized by the government. However people who are against ALL legislation, even the common sense stuff like universal background checks, seem extremely paranoid and only make themselves look bad. The NRA does a great job of brainwashing these people into thinking the government is evil and is doing everything it can to "take mah right." The reality is Obama is pro-second amendment, just like most people in the country.

I think the problem is who decided guns should be a right? Or rather, why does it deserve to be a right?

That's my problem and not people just wanting to own them. Making them a right just comes off as cartoonish, as it's basically saying "everyone is allowed to kill each other!"

People can keep their guns, but don't turn it into some inalienable right that the government should never be allowed to regulate or control.
 

TylerD

Member
I know gaf likes to make fun of people for a hobby they don't understand, but it's not as simple as "I like guns, don't take mah guns." It's the idea that small pieces of legislation, no matter how small, are an infringement of rights and that gun legislation is a slippery slope towards a ban. At least that's the impression I get.

You can't really fault innocent people for not wanting their legally owned property seized by the government. However people who are against ALL legislation, even the common sense stuff like universal background checks, seem extremely paranoid and only make themselves look bad. The NRA does a great job of brainwashing these people into thinking the government is evil and is doing everything it can to "take mah right." The reality is Obama is pro-second amendment, just like most people in the country.

This, the hard line is no legislation that limits any rights associated with gun ownership is acceptable and even reinstating legal ownership of fully automatic weapons is something that should be looked at.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/gunned-down/

The above is a very interesting report on the power of the NRA and gun lobbies.
 
Mix:

- Racist, paranoid white people who think a black person or muslim will kick in their door at any time.
- Racist, paranoid white people who think the government is one small step away from turning into Soviet Russia.

That's not all of the people against gun control, but I dare say it's the overwhelming majority.

This comment is racist
 

HyperionX

Member
Stricter gun control that limits who gets what is something that I am interested in, but giving up all rights to own a firearm is something that I am 100% against. Most of those reasons are my own, but I can think of three arguments for the ownership of firearms among certain types of people that are pretty easy to justify:

For people who live on farms, firearms are almost a necessity. Protecting live stock from predators like wolves, coyotes, raccoon, foxes, and so on is something that you need a rifle for. Traps only work so well, and it is getting to the point where these animals have figured out ways to avoid the majority of them.

For people who live in rural areas where only one or two police officers are available for over 1,800 square miles, firearms are pretty darn close to needed. Either to protect livestock, or in case something crime related actually happened. For many people living in cities, police response is only a phone call and 5 minute wait away. For others, a phone call and a 30 or 45 or even hour long wait is the norm.

For people who count on hunting to make their lives a whole lot easier in winter (basically, seasonal workers who are laid off in winter and hunt for deer to provide food for themselves and family while they do not work - this is something that does actually happen, especially in smaller towns), firearms make their lives a lot easier vs hunting with a bow.

Now, you can read all that and call bullshit or that guns aren't needed, or that getting rid of all firearms would do more good than what it would harm the above people, but to be honest there are good reasons to own firearms beyond the typical hobby/enthusiast argument that many throw around.



Keeping deer populations in reasonable numbers does save human lives.

Even in areas that I have lived in, with avid hunting populations and hundreds of deer killed every hunting season, there are still dozens of car accidents every year involving deer. They are not smart, they do not avoid roads, and they can seriously damage a vehicle and kill somebody in many cases. Going 65mph on a highway at night with a deer sprinting out of the trees 20 feet away, up through the ditch and out onto the road not only can total a car but can also kill anybody and everybody in the vehicle if/when the deer flies up through the windshield and into the actual seating area.

Not to mention the amount of deer that break into farms and destroy gardens, costing hundreds of dollars in damage or lost revenue. That can be the difference in how the family living on a farm lives that winter. Is it going to cause somebody to actually die? No. But it is hardly something to shrug at.

Can deer effectively live in higher numbers without a large impact on human lives? Probably. But the way the system works now is more than effective in saving human lives. It could actually probably be argued somewhat effectively that deer populations could be reduced even further, but that's a debate for a whole new topic.

There are numerous ways to keep population of wild animals under control, including sterilization, poisoning, trapping, etc., which are far more effective than hunting them. The notion that you need a firearm in rural areas is hugely exaggerated.
 

Garlador

Member
It is hypocritical, he's arming the equivalent of Al Qaeda and has the gall to lecture Americans about guns.

You really, really, really don't understand the global politics or the situation of that region.

That country is in a war-zone. Ours is not. You really don't see the difference? Really?
 
You really, really, really don't understand the global politics or the situation of that region.

That country is in a war-zone. Ours is not. You really don't see the difference? Really?

Ours is too man! Because this muslim communist president is secretly allowing the terrorists into our country under the guise of "refugees" who want to destroy us and take away our freedoms! Wake up!
 

sgjackson

Member
I'm probably more pro-gun than a lot of GAF, but I'd want to see a system that works somewhat like a lot of European countries where gun ownership requires a license and a documented need for a gun (sports shooting, hunting, etc). Countries with such a system usually have similarly low intentional murder rates as countries with sweeping gun bans (based on my layman's scan of the statistics, anyway), and as such I think it's a solid compromise.
 

JordanN

Banned
Look, cars are regulated. There are millions of them. If some drunk guy or a 6 year old said he has a right to drive one, you'd laugh.

Now look at guns. Just make it the same thing.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
People are being snarky and reductive. I'l try making a sincere argument from the other side. I grew up in the country around a lot of guns. Know that I am in favor of stricter gun control (but not a ban of any kind) and a vegetarin liberal fucker who doesn't owna gun himself.

The idea that some people are evil or do bad things with something, is not a necessarily a reason to give up our rights, beliefs and freedoms. Criminals are the problem, not gun owners. It's the same paranoia that drives people to fear all muslims when they should fear terrorists. It's the same drive that makes people okay with giving up their personal privacy to the Patriot Act after 9/11. The response from anti-gun types is basically the same fucking response that the Dick Cheney's of the world make about people concerned about illegal phone tapping. It's just one more thing you are asked to surrender in the name of safety... because of the terrorists.

Lets put it another way. People say, "1 out of 100 peanuts were poisonous. Would you eat one?
We know that is stupid. Why do we let that same fear rule us if the metaphor is 1 out of 100 gun owners being irresponsible?

The REALITY is that the majority of gun owners are good people. I personally have a liberal athiest dad who supports gun control to some degree, but loves hunting. Guns mean a lot to him. It's frustrating to see people like him characterized as a violent stupid ignorant asshole just because he is a gun enthusiast.

Guns fed my family when my dad was injured at work and we had no money. When my bastard step dad was out of work for 3 years, we ate deer through the winter. Guns are the one useful skill my asshole grandpa taught him and he passed that knowledge to me. You don't need an AK47 to hunt, but you also don't need a truck to drive - even if they are capable of causing more carnage we understand that we allow people a certain amount of "hobby"

I don't like guns, but if the conversation were about immigarants, violent videogames, rap music or fucking cars we wouldn't be so eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater. At a certain point, you can't let your fear rule you and you might have to look for tougher solutions than taking away something people care about because of what the worst of us did.
It's an instance where the fearful whiners who protest a mosque being built and the "lets ban guns" people are being governed by the same childish bullshit.
 
You really, really, really don't understand the global politics or the situation of that region.

That country is in a war-zone. Ours is not. You really don't see the difference? Really?

There is no difference when those weapons will fall into the hands of our enemies and will inevitably kill our soldiers and allies. So do you really think he has credibility after arming cartels and Islamic terrorist? I've got a bridge to sell you
 

James93

Member
The issue i feel most people miss is fear. Its the fear that if they can ban/control guns where does it end. The US government has given the people a whole lot of reasons to be trusted. People are concerned if you basically throw out one of the principles of america's founding whats next, freedom of speech, religion, etc.
 
How many of the 300+ mass shootings this year were done with legally obtained guns?

Have there really been 300 mass shootings in the US this year? Mass shootings involve 4+ casualties in a short period of time and are not gang-related or familial murder. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't recall it being that high.
 
Bad guys will still get guns. You are only keeping guns out of the hands of good guys.

How will the bad guys get the guns though? The black market? Ah ok, but with gun control the price of guns skyrockets. A basic handgun can cost over $15,000 in Australia. A shotgun over $30,000. A rifle anywhere from $35,000 - $90,000. So where exactly will these people be getting tens of thousands or even millions if it's a large group to buy their armaments?

Have there really been 300 mass shootings in the US this year? Mass shootings involve 4+ casualties in a short period of time and are not gang-related or familial murder. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't recall it being that high.

355.
 

Davilmar

Member
A lot of people will never accept the argument for "reasonable or smart gun control" as nothing more than a facade for gun abolition. Either that, or making gun ownership so cumbersome and restrictive, it acts as an effective and de facto ban.
 
In order to regulate firearms In America you have to overcome hurdles that other first world nations didn't have to.

The gun fetisization and the fear of not having them.

Considering that those two things have industries that profit from them existing, it won't happen in our lifetimes. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
 

JordanN

Banned
The issue i feel most people miss is fear. Its the fear that if they can ban/control guns where does it end. The US government has given the people a whole lot of reasons to be trusted. People are concerned if you basically throw out one of the principles of america's founding whats next, freedom of speech, religion, etc.

If guns are banned, that would have been 200+ years. Chances are, you would already be dead by the time someone even starts thinking about the 1st amendment.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
A lot of people will never accept the argument for "reasonable or smart gun control" as nothing more than a facade for gun abolition. Either that, or making gun ownership so cumbersome and restrictive, it acts as an effective and de facto ban.

You are totally right. However, I see people on GAF saying we should just "ban guns" yesterday. The average joe is seeing that too, and we've seen plenty of our other rights be rules by fear of terrorists - so to a degree I can sympathise even if I know they are being silly.
We already live in a world where people weren't THAT mad when the Snowden stuff went down.
 

Piggus

Member
There are numerous ways to keep population of wild animals under control, including sterilization, poisoning, trapping, etc., which are far more effective than hunting them. The notion that you need a firearm in rural areas is hugely exaggerated.

lol, is that so? Because the town I live in, which refuses to let the state department of fish and wildlife cull the deer population, has tried numerous no-kill measures for years, including sterilization. Guess what? It doesn't work. Hunting is crucial form of wildlife conservation in the US. That's a fact.
 
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