i mean, i don't think one can argue that it has a pretty big chunk of highschool simulation
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WTF @ Genei Ibun Roku #FE 's ending (spoilers but you need to watch this)
- Thread starter Muzy72
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i mean, i don't think one can argue that it has a pretty big chunk of highschool simulation
Though I understand Persona is not really about waifus and I never really played Persona, I know and have seen quite a lot of people who do play the series and only talk about their waifus when there are more cooler things to discuss about the series. I've even seen Shocking Alberto talk about this too, that there's more to talk about but people only want to talk about waifus. It's the same with Fire Emblem Awakening. There was a thread saying it wasn't about waifus but the thread devolved into waifus.
A large chunk of any waifu talk was people joking. It also got banned so there is that.
The fun thing is that the waifu part is an hour in total at best. An hour from an 70-80 hour game.
I can't take anyone seriously who says that Persona or FE is about waifus when the impact is non-existent.
Except if the person spend 20 hours maxing social links/ranking up s-rank links/ face petting. But that's on the person, because he could have easily gone trough the game without that.
The Persona series really only became about waifus to people in the first place once P3 came out. P3 is also when the series actually got popular. Which is a shame really as Persona 2 is quite good as well. I'd argue it's the pinnacle of the series so far. Not knocking P3, I still enjoyed the Portable version quite a bit (cause of the femc-couldn't stand the male protags writing).
I mean, it's not like Atlus hasn't embraced the waifuness. P4G added numerous fanservice scenes that didn't exist and P4 in general up'd the waifuness while reducing the dire plot elements that existed in P1 thru P2IS, P2EP, and P3. That combined with other fanservicey games like DAN or PQ (which opens on the P3 side at least with a scene where Junpei talks about boobs) certainly doesn't help the general view of Persona and smt at large being about waifus/fanservice. When Atlus themselves are pushing the waifu thing hard and it's selling, that tells me that's largely why people care about the series today. Combing that with the consideration that most conversations on Persona at large devolve to "best waifu" really doesn't help things either. #FE is just a further evolution of the waifuness/fanservice that they've embraced in that regard.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
^^
Persona 3 is often regarded as one of the greatest in the series and one of the best jrpgs on the PS2, and if you ask fans why, I can guarantee that waifu would be near the bottom of that list.
Most of it is in jest, which can get old after a while. There's nothing wrong with liking the romantic relationships in the series but I will agree that this "waifu" culture in anime is embarrassing when its seriously put forward. Thankfully, Persona has a host of other topics to talk about. Have you been looking at the Persona 5 reveal threads for instance or the Persona community threads?
Sorry, should of said "game just being". Of course, the concept of going through school, joining clubs and interacting with other NPC's who develop with you is a big attraction to the series.
Persona 3 is often regarded as one of the greatest in the series and one of the best jrpgs on the PS2, and if you ask fans why, I can guarantee that waifu would be near the bottom of that list.
Most of it is in jest, which can get old after a while. There's nothing wrong with liking the romantic relationships in the series but I will agree that this "waifu" culture in anime is embarrassing when its seriously put forward. Thankfully, Persona has a host of other topics to talk about. Have you been looking at the Persona 5 reveal threads for instance or the Persona community threads?
Sorry, should of said "game just being". Of course, the concept of going through school, joining clubs and interacting with other NPC's who develop with you is a big attraction to the series.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=986105
You don't get 150 pages of impressions if it's about waifus. The waifu stuff is there, but the most important thing is that it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I haven't no, but Persona 5 looks cool as hell right down to the menus.
Both of these feature a lot of "waifu" talk, though. In jest or not, it got to the point that mods had to actually specify in the P5 threads that people would get banned for it.
Then why has all of Persona 5's marketing been lacking this until now?
Generally I see "mai waifu/maifanservice" as the main reason why, to be perfectly honest. Which is a shame as there's more to like about P3 than that. I honestly do rank P3P after the P2 duology (starting EP and need to play P1 still, own P1 just need to pick it up, so that ranking may change). I'm not saying it's a bad game. I'm saying that the main reason for it's popularity seems to be the simulator/waifu elements from what I've seen.
We should be using this game is "too music" instead.
That devolves into arguments of atmospheric versus melodic and saying melodic is cartoony and crappy and atmospheric is too movie and crappy.
EDIT: though there was already someone who said this version of the opera made their skin crawl like it was a kidzbop version.
Then why isn't Conception 2 more popular?
The game isn't even out yet so we don't even know the content first of all. Second of all to deny the sheer amount of fanservice surrounding P3 and P4 is just odd to me. P4G did add numerous fanservicey scenes focused on pandering and P4 did up the amount of waifuness from P3. DAN and PQ (what I have played of PQ so far at least) certainly aren't shy about focusing on fanservice/paying a lot of attention to it either. Then there's the culimnation of fanservice that is #FE. I mean, really it's undeniable that Atlus recognizes that waifus/fanservice are a large contribution to their sales when they are building games focused so much around it.
Which is why it's odd to me that #FE is bombing actually. It could be because the characters in #FE aren't established however and characters like Rise are on the otherhand.
Rise Kujikawa was an established character before Persona 4 came out? It's odd to you because you are fundamentally misunderstanding what the core fanbase of Persona and other Megaten titles seek from the games.
And yes, Persona 5 isn't out yet. Which is irrelevant. If you contend that the core pillar of Persona is now pandering and sexual fanservice, why has there been a distinct lack of it in all the marketing for Persona 5? There's a contradiction here; it doesn't make sense, so I'd like to hear your answer.
And why do other games that revolve around fanservice not see high amounts of success? If it's an immediate way to appeal to a large audience, then why is it that more often than not, games that feature large amounts of fanservice are niche and sell relatively low amounts in Japan?
And why is it that a vast amount Persona fans will argue that the fanservice in P3(P) and P4(G) were not distrcting, plentiful or obnoxious? Are they lying? Did they actually all secretly indulge in the fanservice the games were putting forward? Or are they actually telling the truth, with a smaller segment of the audience being the ones who take issue with it or who indulge in it?
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Wait you honestly think that waifus are the main reason Persona has gotten so popular, is loved by critics and will probably be the number 1/2 most anticipated game on this very forum? Why aren't other "waifu" games nearly as popular? Why has such an aspect been barely advertised in P5?
The game is more skeevy and blatant about it's fanservice and isn't about characters people already know. That game also wasn't even developed by Atlus. They published it, sure. Conception 2's initial sales weren't bad either. It was the 5th and 16th best selling game the week it came out in Japan. The 5th place version was the on the Vita and the 16th best selling was the 3ds version.
So the more skeevy and blatant the fanservice, the less successful a game is? And when a game doesn't feature characters people already know, the fanservice isn't as attractive? Also, it's specifically the audience for Atlus games that determines the success of fanservice implemented, and not the audience for the games of other developers (specifically, Spike Chunsoft)?
And I thought we were comparing things to Persona, and not chart ranks? Would you want me to bring up the example of a game with fanservice that did not do well in chart rankings or in actual sale numbers relative to Perosna?
He did not design the armor in Awakening.
The guy who drew this did. Toshiyuki Kusakihara
Some extra fanservice doesn't deny the fact that people buy Persona games because they're amazing RPGs with addictive demon fusioning and not because they finally get to see Naoto is a swimsuit. You call it pandering and increasing waifuness, I call it expanding on a previous popular feature even more.
I already covered this. Waifus are a big contributing factor, yes. It's what more and more of their games have veered to focusing on. To deny that focus is to admit to being blind in my eyes. Their change in focus over-time does not make me look forward to future Atlus titles in the least. I want them to be good but I am leery of them.
I didn't at all say Rise was established before P4 came out. I said her and others establishment in P4 contributes to the popularity of all the fanservice filled spinoffs. Can you please not twist my words to fit your hate that I'm daring to criticize something? As a fan of Persona and SMT I find it amusing you are attacking me for "not understanding what fans want". I'm just pointing out the fact of the matter: the amount of fanservice within the Persona series and in Atlus games at large has increased. Past SMT games didn't focus on that. Past Persona games didn't either. Do I really have to link numerous upon numerous screenshots/videos from DAN, PQ, P4G, P4, etc. to clarify this? It's literally right there. If you're going to continue to deny the point and accuse me of not being a "true fan of Persona or SMT" then I'm not going to bother with you further.
I gave you your answer already.
I also answered this already.
WrenchNinja
Member
That seems really out of character for Tharja
Yea, generally if a game is as skeevy as Conception 2 (it literally utilizes sex as a means of gameplay) then it won't sell as well. People are attracted to esbtalished characters that they like, yes. I don't see how that's some revolutionary concept. I'm not at all arguing this point in your final question and you're the one who brought that up, not me.
You literally claimed that no one cared about Conception 2. I brought in it's actual sales to prove to you that contrary to your argument Conception 2 did sell initially quite well. Of course it's numbers dropped a good bit but it still sold initially well. My response relates directly to what you were saying. How many goalpoasts are you going to jump here?
I didn't at all claim that the Persona games aren't fun/good. I've even said quite the opposite. Try to read what I write, please. I said my perception due to the heavily increased amount of fanservice in the games and that most conversations I see about Persona always devolve to "waifu" make me believe that it's the reason why. I haven't seen much to the contrary. The fact they add anime cutscenes about Naoto's breasts doesn't really help the perception of pandering.
If the fanservice is added to appeal to those who want to see it from established characters, why do you then argue that it has been more substantial in P3 and P4 compared to P2 when P3 and P4 did not have established characters when they came out?
You did not answer why Persona 5 has lacked fanservice in all of its marketing until now. All you stated is that we don't know how much of it is in the game. Why does that matter when you contend that fanservice is fundamental to the series now, which would evidently extend to how the game is promoted?
Conception II had an LTD of 44k sales across the PSV and 3DS SKUs of the game in Japan, compared to the single PSP release Conception which had a 50k LTD. Is that selling well to you?
I didn't at all argue that P3 and P4s characters were established before their games came out. For the umpteenth time, I said that they became established in the games they came out in and the games they came out in already did feature some amount of fanservice which helped add to their likability for some people. Not all players but some. P4 much moreso than P3. And the spinoff fanservice games have popularity specifically because of their use of established characters. I don't see what's so hard to get about people liking a game featuring characters they already liked. You are literally arguing against a point I never made. Stop ignoring what I actually say, thanks.
I did though. If you're going to not read my posts I'm not going to bother with you further. You've already shown you don't care to respond to my actual points here.
I'd like it if you actually read my posts. I stated that the initial sales of it are nothing to scoff at. I also acknowledged already that after it's initial sales it dropped off.
The tomato does have an eye...
see... that's the part which people like you don't get.
you don't have to like or respect something in order to enjoy or at least tolerate it.
for example, I think the US military is the most evil organisation in the world, doesn't mean that I
a) can't enjoy cod once in a while
or/and
b) would litter every cod thread with bile and disgust over how much I want that game/that evil organisation to fail.
If you're getting salty over a game, no matter the contents, you're already doing it wrong. Some people act like this game stole their lolly or something (pun intended)
It's like other m all over again
(and celebrating the failure of something one doesn't like is just bizarre)
I guess we can't proceed, because your responses just continue to confuse me. I thought you were saying that P3 and P4 featured more fanservice than P2 to appeal to that audience, but apparently that's not what you're saying? It seems you're instead saying that the games already featured fanservice for no reason, and that's what they doubled down on moving forward. So you were just talking about the spin-off games like PQ, P4A and P4D, as well as the remakes? If so, I apologize, but then that doesn't explain why Persona 3 and Persona 4 were initially popular to allow those spin-offs, does it?
And I've tried looking multiple times, but I can't see why you think Persona 5 hasn't featured fanservice yet. I guess I'm bad at searching or something.
I fully comprehended what you were saying there, but why do initial FW sales matter when it comes to the actual success of a game, which is what I thought we were discussing?
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I don't know how I could make this any clearer.
Yes, P3 and P4 had more fanservice in terms of waifu-focus and pandering (P4 and especially P4G much moreso than any version of P3 to be fair) than anything in the P2 games or P1. The P2 games and P1 have just about none of the waifuness that P3 or P4 have. They even play somewhat differently which is why it's odd to me to consider them the same series. Even prominent plot elements from the initial Persona games all but vanish in P3. That does not mean I am saying that the success of those specific games (P3 and P4) is because of established characters (they're all new to their game, of course). The characters themselves became established in the game they came out in. Not before. In the game they came out in.
One can create something that is genuinely good on multiple levels and appeals to people and has these other elements (the waifu simulator bits) that then combined together spur popularity. This spurred popularity of P3 and P4 caused Atlus to decide on doing spinoff games (because hey, it sold well and Atlus has never sold that many units-gotta focus on what sells well) that happened to contain an undeniable increasing amount of fanservice from what was there initially in P3 and P4. One can reasonably conclude due to the amount of increased fanservice in these spin-off games that Atlus determined one of the bigger differences was the fanservice that the newer games had on some level compared to the older ones. Probably also in part because the characters themselves were quite well-liked. Utilizing characters who have become established in spin-off games helps to make said spin-off games popular. That's part of my point in response to trying to compare the success of the Persona spin-offs with something like Conception. The Persona spin-offs have more success than Conception because they feature established characters. They also don't go to the level that Conception does with it's fanservice and that is certainly a helpful factor.
Or maybe they realized that people like video games that are fun, full of energy, life, and color (like #FE). You're being incredibly myopic and one-dimensional about 'waifus and fanservice'
Are you sure it's him and not Itsuki's seiyuu? Because I asked in the import thread and someone else said it was Itsuki's, which would make more sense, but it'd definitely be more hilarious if it were Midorikawa.
I like video games like that and don't care at all for #FE. But thanks for assuming I don't like anything fun or colorful? On that matter too, #FE isn't exactly selling well in the first place so I'm not sure why you bring it in as an example as though it's something people are liking. Though there's a slew of reasons why #FE isn't selling well in the first place. In large part because it's not what people expected from a SMT x FE game. Though there are other smaller factors at work there.
Your argument also ignores the popularity of P3 (as it's very much not full of energy, life or color-the whole aesthetic of the game is opposite that). It also ignores the increased amount of fanservice that does exist in the Persona spinoffs, P4G and #FE. If anything I'd say you're being a bit one-dimensional here. It's not like one can deny that those elements exist or that a good chunk of the Persona fanbase now (not saying a majority necessarily but certainly a good chunk from what I've seen) talks about waifus.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Atlas going into the whole isn't all that surprising given that they ultimately cater to a small audience and does not get the same budget as other developers.
I didn't assume you don't like anything fun or colorful. The best parts of P3 were the parts that aren't cold, they are the social links and the characters and personalities that move past that stuff. Atlus continued moving in that direction with Persona 4 and completely shed the shell of the grimdark self serious past games, and boom, it was hugely successful. #FE is another take on that style of evolution. Obviously it hasn't been as successful, but I never argued that in the first place.
I argue that fanservice is just fun content and is incidental, not a cause or incentive or some strategic (from your statements, I'd allege you're reaching conspiratorial) bullet point on their design docs. #FE is pretty tame compared to 'bad anime' stuff out there. Fanservice shouldn't just -not- exist. There's plenty of stuff in the Vanilla P4 that people would call fanservice that I think add a lot to the game, lots of memories, lots of laughs, stuff that add personality. I'm not going to defend the increasingly sexual fanservice because I know that's a whole other bag of worms, but I think dismissing all fanservice is missing the point and is just grouchy old-man-shouting-at-cloud tier stuff.
On the last point, it's not really surprising that 'waifu discussions' are the most visible. Waifu posts are the easiest, most surface level shitposts to make because the games are most memorable for their characters, and most people who played the games do end up having favorite characters. The internet LOVES easy shitposts. This phenomenon shouldn't be propped up as an argument against a game.
No one is denying any of that stuff tho. I'm sure most Persona and Fire Emblem fans are very aware of those talks. The thing is that you're trying to generalize those fan bases just because some people actually enjoy those features. Either it doesn't matter if they do and are vocal about it, because if sure if I head into a Fates or Persona 5 thread, chances are that I'll see the majority of people actually be discussing the game in depth and not just who the best waifu is.
To me the best parts of P3 were all of its aspects. At least with the female mc. I loved all the combined elements, the light-hearted and the not so light-hearted (that said I hate Junpei-he's a sexist asshole in P3P to the femc. I also don't like Yousuke, the bro character in P4 either for similar reasons. Oddly enough I loved the 'bro' character in P2IS: Eikichi for life.). That said as well, I much prefer P2's lighthearted take on adventure while still keeping the same intriguing dire elements of past SMT games over P4s similar approach anyday of the week. There is just a certain atmosphere about P2 that greatly appeals to me. It has fun with itself and it's character relationships in a great many ways while not succumbing to the pandering that is featured heavily in P4G and other Persona spinoffs. People who characterize P3 (which is fair in this games regard due to it's overall aesthetic) and especially anything before that in the Persona series as grimdark don't seem to know much about the past Personas to me. Which is a shame as the P2 duology deserves way more love than it ever got. Easily my favorite cast of Persona characters by miles and it easily features the strongest writing and most intriguing gameplay for me.
Yes, fanservice can be fun incidental content. I loved the relationship between the femc and Shinji for instance in P3P, despite how brief it was. In part because it helped round out Shinji's character as he barely had one in the male protags story. Also in part because it was really cute. I admit, I don't mind fanservice in games. I have not once said people can't enjoy a moment that adds personality to the game. What I have stated is that when that starts to override everything else, that raises alarms for me. You even admit as much about increasing fanservice in this post no less. I'm not being conspiratorial, I'm pointing out a fact about recent Atlus games that makes me worry about future ones.
I don't know if I would argue that it's shitposting. Sure, some of it is. But given how much of it seems genuine and how much Atlus has gone in that direction, I'm not sure I would so easily dismiss the waifu posts. They're a part of the fanbase, whether anyone likes that or not is another matter all together.
I'm a part of those fanbases. I love SMT and FE. I do not like the direction some of the games have headed (especially on SMTs part tho #FE certainly doesn't help. Thankfully Fates is looking okay-potentially). I don't know how I could be clearer on this. My other posting is about my disappointment that said series, particuarly SMT, have gained a good chunk of popularity for fanservice reasons.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It certainly sounds like it could be Midorikawa
Bonus: Marth sings Bambi
Oh jesus, now I can't stop laughing. Oh god, now Marth singing karaoke is in my head and it won't leave and I'm not sure if I like it or not haha
Oh god, I can't stop bwahahahahah.
MARTH AND CLOUD BALLAD OH GOD MAKE IT STOP
or maybe I don't want it to stop
90% of those posts are noncommittal jokes. They're more like "favorite character" posts. Yeah there's definitely some creepy posts out there, people get banned for it occasionally, but just in general I think you're putting way too much stock into it than it merits.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
A contributing factor but big.....not at all. You claim it whats being focused on and yet Persona 5 has shown less focus.
Why don't you actually look at what the critics praise Persona for, what the fans praise it for, and tell us how many times you see "waifu" being used as a significant reason for its quality as a video game. Ironically, the one who is being blind to the actual big factors for Persona's success is you.
Zelgadiss character song from Slayers Next https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcLlonSAJ7A
All of these, I just cannot unhear Marth lmao
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
But there is no indication of said fanservice starting "to override everything else" since it's not a trend universal to Atlus games given what we know about P5 and the little fan serving elements there are still mostly take a back seat. You're being paranoid about a slippery slope that's neither very slippy nor very steep of a slope. Yes, they added some things that your tunnel vision can weave into the narrative of pesky waifuism taking over games, but that's ignoring everything else about those games that is actually being liked and what they are appreciated for and sketching a trajectory that is directly contradicted by the development of P5.
Elaugaufein
Member
*Shrug* I like the dating sim aspects. I follow a lot of shipping fandoms too. I also like the dungeons and combat mechanics. The stories are usually decent too. I'm not sure why you want to draw some kind of hard divide as if its impossible to appreciate both bits. Or as if not being horrified by beach costume level partial nudity inherently means you don't like solid game mechanics.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The whole prim and proper hero king thing was just an act. What Marth really wanted to do with his life is let his hair down, and go sing his little heart out as a J-Pop idol. We should be proud he finally got to fulfill his dreams.
みんな、見ていてくれ！ (Everyone, watch me!) - King Marth, J-Pop Idol.
Edit: But wait! Roy isn't safe from karaoke either! Or J-Pop for that matter!
Agree to disagree on the amount that are joke posts then.
I see what people actually praise it for (I discussed the combination of quality content in the game already-be it the story/characters/gameplay, etc.- I even admitted to enjoying light forms of fanservice/character moments) and I see what is talked about nonstop in many (not all but many) circles(aka waifus). I also see the trend that Atlus games have taken. Something that some of you have acknowledged and something that some of you have continued to try to deny is a thing.
Like this guy/gal here, denying that pandering has become more and more of a thing in recent smt (particularly Persona 4 and it's spinfoffs) games. Though this was also the person who claimed Quiet has a character/isn't just there for sex appeal, so I take their view on anything sexual in a game with a grain of salt at best. And before anyone jumps on this as me wanting to censor anything as is always the case when you criticize this pandering nonsense, I don't have a problem with sexual things in games. I have a problem with a lack of characterization or making a character on sex appeal alone or taking characters who were strong and reducing them to just sex appeal. Especially when said characters also lack agency within those situations. Which is the case in a great many games that do utilize heavy forms of fanservice. They simply aren't sex positive by any means.
It's not "paranoid" to point out a fact about recent Atlus game trends. I'm being realistic here. Just because you don't like people criticizing something and resort to name-calling (as you did back in the Quiet topic) doesn't mean I'm being paranoid about anything here.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I didn't:
- Deny pandering having become more of a thing
- Say sex appeal wasn't a crucial part of Quiet's character
- Imply you asked for censorship
- Status