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[YianGaruga]

what exactly is pandering (except for some optional outfits) in Persona 4 and which characters lack characterization?

and why are people so angry all of a sudden

 

[Ekai]

I didn't:

• Deny pandering having become more of a thing
• Say sex appeal wasn't a crucial part of Quiet's character
• Imply you asked for censorship

Whereas you just randomly brought up a bunch of things irrelevant to the current discussion at hand without addressing my actual arguments. Stay on point if you don't want to become vacuous background noise like in the Quiet thread.

-You literally denied it and accused me of having an ultra narrow focus in the post I quoted (saying so requires you to ignore the points I've made in the first place).
-You claimed her character wasn't about sex appeal when it very much was.
-I mentioned cenorship at large because I've seen it time and again on this forum that if you dare to criticism pandering you are accused of such things. I didn't direct that in your specific direction there.

I haven't brought up anything random now or in the Quiet topic. You and your buds there were the ones insulting women with views on her character (outright denying that any women were even posting), dismissing/hand-waving everything that came your way, and overall just not respecting discussion period. And you've continued to do that here with your senseless insults. All you've shown me is that you continue to not care to have any honest discussion. I don't have time for someone who does nothing but insult others over criticism of a video game of all things.

 

[Palculator]

-You literally denied it and accused me of having an ultra narrow focus in the post I quoted.
-You claimed her character wasn't about sex appeal when it very much was.
-I mentioned cenorship at large because I've seen it time and again on this forum that if you dare to criticism pandering you are accused of such things. I didn't direct that in your specific direction there.

I haven't brought up anything random now or in the Quiet topic. You and your buds there were the ones insulting women with views on her character (outright denying that any women were even posting), dismissing/hand-waving everything that came your way, and overall just not respecting discussion period. And you've continued to do that here with your senseless insults. All you've shown me is that you continue to not care to have any honest discussion.

 

[Seik]

Wow.

At least I know this game will disappoint me to the end...They're even closing the game with a damn song.

Oh well...at least it gave us this.

I don't want to sound like a simple hater though, I'll be clearer, I love both series, a lot...thing is...it's just not what I expected it to be. To a point where it's not at all what I expected it to be.

...To a point it's almost the absolute contrary of what I expected it to be...anyways, this resumes pretty much my point:

I'm barely able to tolerate the J-Pop from P3-P4 and such, but this damn game seems to be BASED on J-Pop with all that Idol stuff...it'll be hard for me to appreciate it, even if I really WANT to like it. :lol

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

*Shrug* I like the dating sim aspects. I follow a lot of shipping fandoms too. I also like the dungeons and combat mechanics. The stories are usually decent too. I'm not sure why you want to draw some kind of hard divide as if its impossible to appreciate both bits. Or as if not being horrified by beach costume level partial nudity inherently means you don't like solid game mechanics.

Never did. I like the romantic relationships in the series as well and am happy they are there. Just saying its not the major reason for the game's critical and commercial success.

I see what people actually praise it for (I discussed the combination of quality content in the game already-be it the story/characters/gameplay, etc.- I even admitted to enjoying light forms of fanservice/character moments) and I see what is talked about nonstop in many (not all but many) circles(aka waifus). I also see the trend that Atlus games have taken. Something that some of you have acknowledged and something that some of you have continued to try to deny is a thing.

Argument I'm having with you is on Persona and you failed to answer this:

You claim it whats being focused on and yet Persona 5 has shown less focus.

Your problem, like many have said, is looking at a certain group, perhaps in your perception a vocal minority, and thinking the majority of the fandom is like that and so Atlus is going to predominantly focus on said group, when in reality, games that do that sell very little, Persona 5 will sell many times more, and the only thing Atlus has focused on with Persona 5 is the theme they want to convey with the game.

 

[Elaugaufein]

-You literally denied it and accused me of having an ultra narrow focus in the post I quoted.
-You claimed her character wasn't about sex appeal when it very much was.
-I mentioned cenorship at large because I've seen it time and again on this forum that if you dare to criticism pandering you are accused of such things. I didn't direct that in your specific direction there.

I haven't brought up anything random now or in the Quiet topic. You and your buds there were the ones insulting women with views on her character (outright denying that any women were even posting), dismissing/hand-waving everything that came your way, and overall just not respecting discussion period. And you've continued to do that here with your senseless insults. All you've shown me is that you continue to not care to have any honest discussion.

It gets brought up because a large section of the criticism of pandering is that "Things like this shouldn't exist" or "I hope they cut this" which is censorship. I have no idea why you think people shouldn't bring up censorship when that's precisely what people are advocating. It's kind of on point in that context.

 

[Kinsei]

what exactly is pandering (except for some optional outfits) in Persona 4 and which characters lack characterization?

and why are people so angry all of a sudden

The hot springs scene and opening with one of Rise's commercials are the only things that really jump out at me.

 

[Palculator]

what exactly is pandering (except for some optional outfits) in Persona 4 and which characters lack characterization?

and why are people so angry all of a sudden

I can only think of the bath house scenes, to be honest. And it's hard to count the optional outfits given the quality of the character models, lol, but I guess technically they count.

Spoiler

Also Mara.

 

[deleted]

I don't think the armor is overdesigned. The cloth outfits are more complex, but the armors not so much. They're just odd sometimes. It was mostly a problem in Awakening with the toilet bow cavaliers and round, fat looking armors, but Fates added some odd issues of its own, like even more leotard undersuits for girls in armor (there were some in Awakening, but mostly for mounted units, like Great Knights, but now even Knights/Generals have them).

The change in armor design is actually the one art change that really bothers me about the last two games though. The worst thing is that it's unlikely to change back since it's apparently due to the art director, rather than the character designer. So, even when they go with someone else, the armor style likely won't change much, since the overall in-game presentation of FE13/14 are a clearly step up from FE9-12 (and 11/12 were disasters with that CG artwork).

Overdesigned is maybe a bit harsh when character evolutions like Soul Calibur exists - but it's more complex for complexities sake and for style, not for usability or because it makes sense to build the armor this way.

I could live with the rest, when the armor would stay relatively classic. Awakening wasn't that bad in that regard - it laid the path to fates, but to me it looks more like a bridge title when it comes to visuals. I could've lived with that, but fates is just visually unappealing to me.

I don't find the video in the OP that distracting tbh - it doesn't look out of place when you view the game from a j-pop game perspective I guess? Not for me, but it seems to be in line with the rest of the game...

 

[Kaiterra]

Ekai, I was with you until the past few pages.

It gets brought up because a large section of the criticism of pandering is that "Things like this shouldn't exist" or "I hope they cut this" which is censorship. I have no idea why you think people shouldn't bring up censorship when that's precisely what people are advocating. It's kind of on point in that context.

I don't think this is true though. It's censorship if you're appealing to the authorities to ban something, not if you're saying you don't like it and don't want to see more of it.

Fire Emblem was always full anime. It's just that anime has changed in the last couple of decades.

This is a really good post that sums up a good part of people's distaste towards "anime games" anymore I think, and how many (but certainly not all) of them are unfairly colored by trends in the media that employ that style. It was different not even like 10 years ago.

 

[Ekai]

It gets brought up because a large section of the criticism of pandering is that "Things like this shouldn't exist" or "I hope they cut this" which is censorship. I have no idea why you think people shouldn't bring up censorship when that's precisely what people are advocating. It's kind of on point in that context.

Except that literally just about never happens. People have screamed censorship/agenda over developers internally deciding to change their own game. Need I bring up the Mika fiasco or the topic that spawned from that? Or the zipper-panties thing with #FE? People have also made such arguments at numerous people on this board across various topics who are quite reasonable and never argue in manners you describe. It's not censorship to criticize and disagree on something in a game. To argue that that is is honestly an attempt to silence another's opinion in my view.

Never did. I like the romantic relationships in the series as well and am happy they are there. Just saying its not the major reason for the game's critical and commercial success.



Argument I'm having with you is on Persona and you failed to answer this:



Your problem, like many have said, is looking at a certain group, perhaps in your perception a vocal minority, and thinking the majority of the fandom is like that and so Atlus is going to predominantly focus on said group, when in reality, games that do that sell very little, Persona 5 will sell many times more, and the only thing Atlus has focused on with Persona 5 is the theme they want to convey with the game.

I already addressed that.

The Persona spin-off games and P4G's increased amount of fanservice sold decently well. I get the impression a large chunk of the fandom is like that when Atlus caters to them with numerous games that up the fanservice at the cost of the writing/characters themselves. That combined with seeing endless waifu discussions about Persona doesn't help things either. I want P5 to not be like that, only time will tell if that's the case. I also would hope that SMT4 Final isn't like that either.

 

[YianGaruga]

The hot springs scene and opening with one of Rise's commercials are the only things that really jump out at me.

I guess. Maybe I'm desensitized but a hot springs scene for comedic effect or showing some skin is basically in every anime these days. It's very tame.

When I think what I remember about P4G, pandering and needless sexual content are very far down the list tbh. The "waifu" thing comes from the fact that the game has great characters that people like and remember. That's all. The game focusses strongly on characters and relationships, maybe that's what people have a problem with?

Even P4DAN doesn't really have anything like that, so I have no idea what that poster is going on about

 

[Elaugaufein]

Overdesigned is maybe a bit harsh when character evolutions like Soul Calibur exists - but it's more complex for complexities sake and for style, not for usability or because it makes sense to build the armor this way.

I could live with the rest, when the armor would stay relatively classic. Awakening wasn't that bad in that regard - it laid the path to fates, but to me it looks more like a bridge title when it comes to visuals. I could've lived with that, but fates is just visually unappealing to me.

I don't find the video in the OP that distracting tbh - it doesn't look out of place when you view the game from a j-pop game perspective I guess? Not for me, but it seems to be in line with the rest of the game...

I think they went with more elaborate armor in fates to make it easier to emphasize the more eastern aesthetic of Hoshido vs the more western aesthetic of Nohr. It sort of makes sense in context.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

This is awesome, just like everything I've seen about this game. Not sure what people are so upset about, other than the usual "my SMTxFE crossover is supposed to be serious business, not fun!" nonsense.

I love that they clearly had a ton of fun with this. Fans suck sometimes. Well, a lot of the time.

 

[Taruranto]

Have you been looking at the Persona 5 reveal threads for instance or the Persona community threads?

Like that one in which they had to ban all the waifu discussions because you guys wouldn't stop talking about that, completely derailing the thread with it? :C

 

[Palculator]

Like that one in which they had to ban all the waifu discussions because you guys wouldn't stop talking about that, completely derailing the thread with it? :C

lol, poor Shouta.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Ekai, I was with you until the past few pages.



I don't think this is true though. It's censorship if you're appealing to the authorities to ban something, not if you're saying you don't like it and don't want to see more of it.



This is a really good post that sums up a good part of people's distaste towards "anime games" anymore I think, and how many (but certainly not all) of them are unfairly colored by trends in the media that employ that style. It was different not even like 10 years ago.

Censorship through social pressure is still censorship. It's how most censorship regimes are enforced since governments generally don't have the ability to track the actions and possessions of all their citizens. It's also how most censorship that isn't directly about maintaining government supremacy comes into existence in the first place, from the social pressure for "morality". I really doubt there's very many advocates for censorship in human history who didn't honestly believe that they were 100% correct in advocating for censorship because of what they saw as valid reasons.

Except that literally just about never happens. People have screamed censorship/agenda over developers internally deciding to change their own game. Need I bring up the Mika fiasco or the topic that spawned from that? Or the zipper-panties thing with #FE? People have also made such arguments at numerous people on this board across various topics who are quite reasonable and never argue in manners you describe. It's not censorship to criticize and disagree on something in a game. To argue that that is is honestly an attempt to silence another's opinion in my view.

Is it ? Calling something censorship isn't censorship. You're free to refute the accusation. I didn't say you shouldn't be allowed to call for censorship. You should. I'll probably oppose you. And part of that opposition is to point out that it's censorship.

I'm also pretty sure it's unlikely to silence your opinion on GAF where such opinions are generally pretty popular to the point that I knew I'd get into a discussion about whether or not social pressure was censorship before I replied to you. It's also true that the mods tend to take your view more than mine. So if my intent is to silence you with the accusation I'd be doing a pretty bad job of it.



ETA - We should probably stop this side track though. This thread is way off topic without wandering into the muddy waters of political and social philosophies. And these discussions are generally the 2nd last thing to happen before a thread gets locked.

 

[kuroneko0509]

It certainly sounds like it could be Midorikawa

Bonus: Marth sings Bambi

Oh jesus, now I can't stop laughing. Oh god, now Marth singing karaoke is in my head and it won't leave and I'm not sure if I like it or not haha

Oh god, I can't stop bwahahahahah.

MARTH AND CLOUD BALLAD OH GOD MAKE IT STOP

Spoiler

or maybe I don't want it to stop

it's not Midorikawa Hikaru, it's Kimura Ryouhei (Itsuki)

 

[Ekai]

Is it ? Calling something censorship isn't censorship. You're free to refute the accusation. I didn't say you shouldn't be allowed to call for censorship. You should. I'll probably oppose you. And part of that opposition is to point out that it's censorship.

I'm also pretty sure it's unlikely to silence your opinion on GAF where such opinions are generally pretty popular to the point that I knew I'd get into a discussion about whether or not social pressure was censorship before I replied to you. It's also true that the mods tend to take your view more than mine. So if my intent is to silence you with the accusation I'd be doing a pretty bad job of it.

ETA - We should probably stop this side track though. This thread is way off topic without wandering into the muddy waters of political and social philosophies. And these discussions are generally the 2nd last thing to happen before a thread gets locked.

Arguing that another's opinion is censorship is purposefully ignoring the content of their posts in an attempt to silence/change the narrative from what their actual view of the product in question is. We've seen attempts to call for silence of dissenting opinion from the main #FE no less. I am not making a call for censorship nor has anyone else that you or anyone else blindly accused of doing. Stop towing the "You are for censorship" line, that is not happening here or anywhere else for that matter on GAF. All that argument does is showcase you do not care for honest discussion and do not like anyone having an opposing view.

It is a side-track but it's tangentially related to the topic in the sense that it's how some respond to criticism of this stuff. I agree that it's probably going to go nowhere/cause the thread to be locked.

 

[kiryogi]

You guys entertaining Ekai is a bit amusing. He's pretty set in his ways, so much that he went out of his way to stalk my posts or my twitter to try to attack my character on pandering because I like the Surge Concerto series. I decided after that he was going on my ignore list.

 

[Palculator]

You guys entertaining Ekai is a bit amusing. He's pretty set in his ways, so much that he went out of his way to stalk my posts or my twitter to try to attack my character on pandering because I like the Surge Concerto series. I decided after that he was going on my ignore list.

Yeah I added him to ignore after my "". Got enough neurotics in my life.

Cheers.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Getting away from the "anime is shit, lol weaboos" conversations that ultimately dominate every controversial thread topic about these subjects, can we all agree that the main issue with this game is that it is not the kind of Fire Emblem X SMT game people had in mind?

I mean, if you only played the Fire Emblem games up to Gamecube, and only played SMT Nocturne, or Digital Devil Saga, you'd be right confused as to how this has anything to do with those in a setting or tonal sense.

 

[Maniel]

Getting away from the "anime is shit, lol weaboos" conversations that ultimately dominate every controversial thread topic about these subjects, can we all agree that the main issue with this game is that it is not the kind of Fire Emblem X SMT game people had in mind?

I mean, if you only played the Fire Emblem games, and only played SMT Nocture, or Digital Devil Saga, you'd be right confused as to how this has anything to do with those in a setting or tonal sense.

Yes I would say so. The gameplay may be great, but the main problem with it is definitely that the idol focus does not appeal to either SMT or FE fans in general.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Getting away from the "anime is shit, lol weaboos" conversations that ultimately dominate every controversial thread topic about these subjects, can we all agree that the main issue with this game is that it is not the kind of Fire Emblem X SMT game people had in mind?

I mean, if you only played the Fire Emblem games up to Gamecube, and only played SMT Nocturne, or Digital Devil Saga, you'd be right confused as to how this has anything to do with those in a setting or tonal sense.

I think showing images of SMT and FE characters as an initial teaser and what it actually was...is what the big issue boiled down to.

It is probably a game you have to play yourself to know whether or not you like it.

 

[Ekai]

You guys entertaining Ekai is a bit amusing. She's pretty set in her ways, so much that she went out of her way to stalk my posts or my twitter to try to attack my character on pandering because I like the Surge Concerto series. I decided after that she was going on my ignore list.

You're the one who accused me of having an agenda against pandering games and supporting censorship all because I criticized something. You're also the one who called for a silence of critique of this game in the main #FE topic. You're the one who was offended over me criticizing #FE and pandering games in general and tried as much as you could to avoid any honest discussion.

It's not "stalking" to go to other topics on this very board and literally see you randomly post your love of games filled with sections where you ogle girls in bikinis as a part of the game's main gameplay mechanics (That series as a whole is nothing but pandering really.) That's me seeing your posts and remembering your gaming tastes in general. I even told you numerous times I have no qualms with you enjoying that content ( I have even spoken positively of light fan-service and sexuality in games myself within this and many other topics) but that didn't stop you from not at all reading my posts and accusing me of wanting to censor your gaming choices. But keep on lying and victimizing yourself, really, it's incredibly appreciated that the person who harassed me is victimizing themselves.

I pointed out the fact of the matter because it's incredibly clear you don't like people criticizing anything you like. You bemoaned games journalism no less and spoke in a conspiratory way about how games journalism at large treats your favorite games. It's amusing that you so sincerely want to silence anyone's opinion that doesn't fall in line with yours and decide to purposefully mischaracterize them as much as you can. Palculator is the same way really if their initial posts here and all of their posting in the Quiet topic is any indication. Birds of a feather, you two.

Getting away from the "anime is shit, lol weaboos" conversations that ultimately dominate every controversial thread topic about these subjects, can we all agree that the main issue with this game is that it is not the kind of Fire Emblem X SMT game people had in mind?.

No one was making that argument.

The later part of your post is one large part of why the game isn't selling in the first place.

 

[Thud]

Working title shouldn't have been SMT x FE with those images.

Nintendo was desperate to show games tho, any game.

 

[Palculator]

Getting away from the "anime is shit, lol weaboos" conversations that ultimately dominate every controversial thread topic about these subjects, can we all agree that the main issue with this game is that it is not the kind of Fire Emblem X SMT game people had in mind?

I mean, if you only played the Fire Emblem games up to Gamecube, and only played SMT Nocturne, or Digital Devil Saga, you'd be right confused as to how this has anything to do with those in a setting or tonal sense.

I think that's the main point of contention, yeah. Not really the main issue. I fully understand the people having a problem with it, but even immediately after we got that newer trailer that showed more than just moving art of existing characters I got interested more precisely because they were going wild with the idea of a crossover. Said novelty alone has a quality.

Again, I don't mean to say it should therefore be likable for everyone, just want to point out why it's not really a problem for me. If they had just made a "traditional" crossover that was basically Devil Survivor with a bunch of Fire Emblem sprites I'd be disappointed, I think.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think that's the main point of contention, yeah. Not really the main issue. I fully understand the people having a problem with it, but even immediately after we got that newer trailer that showed more than just moving art of existing characters I got interested more precisely because they were going wild with the idea of a crossover. Said novelty alone has a quality.

Again, I don't mean to say it should therefore be likable for everyone, just want to point out why it's not really a problem for me. If they had just made a "traditional" crossover that was basically Devil Survivor with a bunch of Fire Emblem sprites I'd be disappointed, I think.

I understand what your saying 100%. This kind of idol and overt fan-service stuff doesn't really appeal to my tastes(seriously, many of the women's NPC's humongous tits bounce just by slight movements in the standard cut-scenes, not even lying)

But, i can see how people could still find it very interesting as a concept enough to try it out for themselves.

 

[Venfayth]

The irony of people just learning about how this game is by viewing "ending spoilers" has yet to completely wash over me.

 

[Maniel]

The irony of people just learning about how this game is by viewing "ending spoilers" has yet to completely wash over me.

I don't think that most people are just learning now. They are just beginning (or continuing) to voice their opinion on it.

 

[Eolz]

Wow.

At least I know this game will disappoint me to the end...They're even closing the game with a damn song.

Oh well...at least it gave us this.

Fantastic.
Also, as said before by several people, it's not exactly the game's ending.

edit:

How in the world are your comparison pictures any more detailed than the art style used in Fates? Am I going crazy right now?

Pretty sure he did that to show it wasn't any more detailed than in Fates. You're not crazy.

 

[Kaisos]

#youvegottobekiddingme

How in the world are your comparison pictures any more detailed than the art style used in Fates? Am I going crazy right now?

Pretty sure he did that to show it wasn't any more detailed than in Fates.

He's responding to a post arguing exactly that, though...

Are you sure it's him and not Itsuki's seiyuu? Because I asked in the import thread and someone else said it was Itsuki's, which would make more sense, but it'd definitely be more hilarious if it were Midorikawa.

It's absolutely not Midorikawa.

They're even closing the game with a damn song.

And for the fifth time, it's not the game's ending, lol. OP is either misinformed or actively lying.

 

[Kagari]

This game and thread are a mess. I think we can all agree with that.

 

[Toxi]

This.

FE was always basically Gundam.

So which FE was Gundam SEED Destiny?

 

[WrenchNinja]

So which FE was Gundam SEED Destiny?

Radiant Dawn

No that's not fair, there are some good things about Radiant Dawn. It's only so far as Ike hijacks the game like Kira does the show. But then Michiah and Shinn suck though.

 

[Neoleo2143]

So which FE was Gundam SEED Destiny?

In terms of badness? Maybe Shadow Dragon?

Plot Structure? Radiant Dawn.

New Mystery is basically Gundam Unicorn where the world hates you lol.

 

[Nanashrew]

But Gundam Seed has parallels to Gundam Zeta's structure, just bland. So is Radiant Dawn aping on an older game?

 

[Gaiaknight]

do we have a full version of this fire emblem theme yet cause its stuck in my head lol.

 

[kiryogi]

do we have a full version of this fire emblem theme yet cause its stuck in my head lol.

After February 10th, that's when the album comes out.

 

[Gaiaknight]

After February 10th, that's when the album comes out.

damn well back to replaying the short version over and over again. Its actually a really catchy song.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

This game and thread are a mess. I think we can all agree with that.

lol, so used to modbot that I expected a post like this meant a lock.

 

[Mozendo]

So does Illusory Revelations#FE have SMT influences? From what I've seen it just looks like a Fire Emblem spin-off RPG.

 

[kiryogi]

lol, so used to modbot that I expected a post like this meant a lock.

I thought she was here to save me from that stalker D:

 

[BatDan]

So does Illusory Revelations#FE have SMT influences? From what I've seen it just looks like a Fire Emblem spin-off RPG.

It has the SMT battle system. The Turn Press system seen in Nocturne and IV.

At least that's what I've heard

 

[Kagari]

lol, so used to modbot that I expected a post like this meant a lock.

Oh it is.