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Can you please explain Jazz to me... (Help make this thread Jazz 101)

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Joe

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Jazz is a genre of music that I always put off listening to because I just don't understand it intellectually.

I got into a YouTube hole last night and came across this album....



My mind was immediately blown. It's incredible and I think it's a good starting point for me Jazz-wise.

I have so many questions.

How much of Jazz is improvised? Is modern Jazz still improvised, or did that get left behind in a different era?

How can you even tell if it is improvised, or pre-planned, or a mix of both?

If it is improvised then how the heck do you record an album? Are tracks recorded in one take? Is every take vastly different?

How do you perform album tracks live?

You don't have to answer my questions exactly or even at all, you can chime in with anecdotes, perspectives, or just links.

Post whatever you think might help with "Jazz 101"
 
I took a course on jazz last semester for a GE, so I might be able to answer a few questions.

The level of improvisation varies. Sometimes only certain parts of pieces, like solos, are improvised, sometimes the whole thing is. Improvisation is still very much a thing in modern jazz, too.

Usually, improvised parts of songs tend to be more simple. Generally, at least the chord progressions are pre-planned and used as a base for improvisation. If you're hearing some complex-sounding phrases, those were pre-planned as well.

Live tracks would be the studio tracks but with presumably different improvisations.
 
I don't claim to know theory or be knowledgeable of the greats' catalogs, but I def have an appreciation for it, admittedly a lot is fusion or prog based. This won't help you for classics op but I thoroughly enjoyed Kamasi Washington's The Epic which was released last year. He's the sax player Flying Lotus uses a lot. Give it a whirl sometime if you're so inclined.

R-7014389-1431704816-1655.jpeg.jpg
 
Oh man...watch Ken Burns' Jazz documentary series. I think it's like 10 parts and I believe it's all up on Netflix. It's a very long and deep history, but, if you like Headhunters, you have to check out Miles Davis' late '60's early '70's output. If I'm you, I'm starting with Bitches Brew, In A Silent Way, and A Tribute to Jack Johnson.

All of those are full Youtube links. Herbie plays on at least two of those three albums. This is the jazz you are looking for.
 
Head Hunters is largely a jazz funk, or "jazz fusion" album. The mixture of jazz with funk, rock, and other genres.

In terms of improvisation, the level varies. One way to look at it, from Wikipedia

A common view of what a jazz soloist does could be expressed thus: as the harmonies go by, he selects notes from each chord, out of which he fashions a melody. He is free to embellish by means of passing and neighbor tones, and he may add extensions to the chords, but at all times a good improviser must follow the changes. ... [However], a jazz musician really has several options: he may reflect the chord progression exactly, he may "skim over" the progression and simply elaborate the background harmony, or he may fashion his own voice-leading which may clash at some points with the chords the rhythm section is playing.

As an example consider Dexter Morgan's brilliant studio version of A Night In Tunsia. Then give a listen to him doing a live version of it.

Lots of great recommendations in the thread so far. I'd definitely check out the documentaries as they'll help explain a variety of things and help to point out various aspects of jazz while you listen.
 
Jazz is a genre of music that I always put off listening to because I just don't understand it intellectually.

I got into a YouTube hole last night and came across this album....



My mind was immediately blown. It's incredible and I think it's a good starting point for me Jazz-wise.

I have so many questions.

How much of Jazz is improvised? Is modern Jazz still improvised, or did that get left behind in a different era?

How can you even tell if it is improvised, or pre-planned, or a mix of both?

If it is improvised then how the heck do you record an album? Are tracks recorded in one take? Is every take vastly different?

How do you perform album tracks live?

You don't have to answer my questions exactly or even at all, you can chime in with anecdotes, perspectives, or just links.

Post whatever you think might help with "Jazz 101"

1) Jazz solos are improvised over what is known as a "form". One of my the most common is a 12 bar blues. Tenor Madness by Sonny Rollins At the start of the song, they play an established melody, then close the song out with it at the end.

Start off by rewinding that melody over a few times until you can sing along with it. Once you are able to, listen to the rest of the track BUT KEEP SINGING the melody aloud. The soloists (Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Red Garland, Paul Chambers) solo around the melody. You should notice that some of the improvisation they are playing fits perfectly with the melody of the track. Halfway through the track, the sax and drums (Philly Joe Jones) "trade 4's". Meaning the sax plays 4 bars of solo, then the drummer responds with 4 bars of solo. Again, keep singing the melody and you'll notice how they play around the melody.

2) Jazz is largely improvised, but most musicians will have a bag of tricks they'll pull some stuff out of. If you listen to a lot of one musician, you'll start to notice they play figures that sound very familiar. I can post some links of drummers later because it's easiest to hear rhythmically. Often times before a group plays a song, they'll go over what they want to do. For example, the sax player might play 2 complete chorus's (a chorus means once through the form) then the trumpet might play 2 chorus's, then they might quiet down and let the bass player play a chorus, then they might have the pianist play 2 chorus's as they get louder in volume, finally they might trade 4's with the drummer.

In conclusion, they'll have a blueprint of what they want to do then fill it up with soloing.

3) Unless someone really messes up, they'll record a song start to finish. If everyone likes the solos, they might keep that one take. If they aren't happy with the finished product, they might do another few takes until everyone is happy with their solos. Sometimes when you play you feel like your solo wasn't all that great and you can do better.

So yeah, a lot of what you are asking basically all comes down to form. There are jazz "standards" that everyone plays with different forms (the other big form is AABA, 32 bars). Check out So What by Miles Davis It starts off with a piano intro, but then the melody is the bass playing a figure and the horns and piano responding with a figure (you can sing So What as the figure). A A means they play the same melody figure twice in a row, B means they play a different figure (in this case, the chord changes from a D minor to an E flat minor, making the pitch go slightly higher), before returning to the A again. So playing AABA means they played one chorus. On this recording Miles takes 2 chorus's, John Coltrane takes 2 chorus's, then Canonball Adderly takes 2 chorus's. Again, try to sing the melody and you can follow along with what the soloist's are doing.

Might be a bit of a long explanation but I'm trying to keep it as simple as I can here. If anyone is interested we can delve deeper into this.
 
My own bias is towards 50's era jazz. One of the great things about jazz is how often you saw collaborations between the giants of the genre. Kind of Blue is an example of that: each member of that ensemble kicked ass in their own right.

Jazz has sorta ruined rock music for me. I wouldn't want to go to a rock concert now and hear the exact same thing note-for-note that I heard on the album. Whats the point?

Anyway, use these as a starting point to branch off into what tickles your fancy:


Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwM


Thelonious Monk - Well, You Needn't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt_JIFmsJZc


Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong-Duke's Place
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-f4-IeNQ3c


Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong - Ella And Louis [Full Album]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxEl7pwksWU

.....eventually you'll find the speed and genre that you enjoy but I think this is a nice place to start.
 
Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv9NSR-2DwM

Actually, shout out to MonkeyKing for posting Moanin'. This is a really great example of AABA form for someone who is just learning the genre.

The first A section the piano plays the melody then the horns, bass and drums respond (this is called "Call and Response" and is prominent in a lot of jazz).

The next A section has the horns playing the line then the piano, bass and drums respond.

The B section has the whole band playing the figure together, and you can hear the melody is different from what is played before.

The last A section goes back to the piano playing the melody and everyone else responding.

Now as the solos are going on, the A sections are softer than the B section, where the band begins to play a lot louder and the solo intensifies. Again, try to sing the melody over the AABA form and you'll hear how the solos relate to the melody.

The soloists each take 2 chorus's each (starts with Lee Morgan on trumpet, goes to Benny Golson on sax, then to Bobby Timmons on piano). The bassist then does 1 chorus before the band plays the melody one last time and ends the song.
 

Con_Smith

Banned
If you like anime Yoko Kanno and the Seatbelts are great. Provided much of the sound for cowboy bebop.

If you like wild improv and crazy times/ arrangements Buddy Rich and for a more latin flavor Bill Watrous are great. Bill has some of the most soulfil vibes (Tiger of San Pedro and Spain) but Channel One Suute is an experience (and supremely fun to play)
 

jlevel13

Member
I wouldn't worry too much about understanding it "intellectually." Jazz is just music - you either feel it or you don't. I would recommend trying to catch some live shows, depending on where you live - especially if you can make it to some club shows. Watching people play together live will help you understand what they're doing a lot more than just listening to records or anything anybody will say here.
 
How can you even tell if it is improvised, or pre-planned, or a mix of both?

If it is improvised then how the heck do you record an album? Are tracks recorded in one take? Is every take vastly different?

I'm not going to explain the technical stuff since rock and roll already did it much better than I could, instead I'll elaborate a bit on these questions

you usually can tell if it's improvised or not quite easily. As it is already said the most structured, complex parts are planned and composed while the solos are improvised. Complexity is this case doesn't mean the technical difficulty, which is often much higher during a solo, but the structure of the interplay between the various players, if it's elaborate and relies on tight, precise exchanges than it's probably composed and not improvised.

For example since you brought up head hunters, you can compare it with weather report, one of the main jazz fusion bands, especially their later albums like black market or heavy weather. compared to head hunters there's a lot less improvisation and much more structure, there are more melodies which are usually easier and more catchy, the instruments come in and out more often, the solos are much shorter etc.

as for the recording of albums, they were and are recorded much more quickly than in other genres, often in one or two days, since you can rely on improvisation and the skill of the players and you don't have to use all the overdubs, the studio effects, background vocals and all the stuff that takes studio time.
recording in one take is rare though, usually the players already know the structure of the piece and what they should do and have done some rehearsal, but there's always room for mistakes, the solos or the general feel may not be satisfactory, the tempo should have been slower or faster and other things, so usually there are multiple takes.
Sometimes alternate takes are included in modern reissues of classic albums and the differences are not that big, but often you can hear that something is not quite right and why the "master take" has been chosen for the album.
 
Another great introduction to jazz is familiar music.

Beatles jazz covers are great for this.

George Benson's The Other Side of Abbey Road is a cover album of Abbey Road classic songs with a jazz tint. It's amazing and one of the greatest cover albums of all time.

Lena Horne has done multiple Beatles covers but Rocky Raccoon is even better than the original. On that same wave length you need to listen to Gabor Szabo.

Beatles jazz covers is one of the greatest aspect of the genre.

Full stop.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
The music in the OP is pretty good. I'm surprised because I normally don't like this style. I prefer the more bombastic style of jazz. You can listen to it here perfected.

Baccano Opening Music

If anyone has anything like this, tell me. The closest that I could find is the Undertale soundtrack and it wasn't quite the same.

edit: I have also dabbled in acid jazz which is the genre of music that the Persona games use. My favourite so far is the James Taylor Quartet. Try this one. Love Will Keep Us Together It's pretty catchy. It has vocals, btw. If you haven't heard the Persona 5 theme, here it is in all its stylish glory.
 

Roc

Neo Member
Usually the piece will have a main melody, then people solo over the chord changes. I used to play in a small jazz band, it was awesome.
 

fleck0

Member
Can't let a Jazz thread go by without Rahsaan Roland Kirk. I usually listen to classics like Coltrane, Parker and Davis and avoid modern jazz but Rahsaan is too crazy to ignore. He did most of his playing in the 60s-70s and his most recognizable recording is the flute solo on Soul Bossa Nova (You'll know that from Austin Powers). Besides being blinded as child he would often perform with 2-3 saxophones strapped to him, which he would play simultaneously.

https://youtu.be/ZIqLJmlQQNM?t=94

I also like Don Byron (clarinet), he does some fun / weird stuff sometimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmAxSlBhPs

edit: For old stuff that has an easy to follow structure. I love Duke Ellington, he led the band on Piano and his lead Sax player Johnny Hodges is a legend.

Sophisticated Lady

Take the "A" Train

Don't Get Around Much Any More
 

nel e nel

Member
OP, since you specifically pointed out Headhunters, follow up with more of Herbie Hancock's stuff in the early-mid 70s. Also, start checking out the CTI/Kudu label catalog, lots of funky jazz stuff in there:

Bob James
Freddie Hubbard
Joe Farrell
Stanley Turrentine
Idris Muhammad
Grover Washington Jr.


Wait til you start getting into the latin stuff:

Eddie Palmieri
Willie Bobo
Ray Barretto
Joao Gilberto
Chico Hamilton
Mongo Santamaria
 

Fugu

Member
I'm obsessed with jazz! I studied it in university and I listen to it every day. Head Hunters is an excellent album. I'll write up a (hopefully) useful post of big names and what to listen to. Just some side comments as to what's happening in the thread right now...

The Ken Burns documentary:
From what I've watched, it's not bad, but you should know that it's fairly controversial in the jazz community for representing jazz as a genre that's basically been stagnant since the sixties, which is completely not true. The Marsalis family having a big influence on it is what's responsible for this, and it's my recommendation that you probably shouldn't watch it until you already have a good background of jazz.

How to tell when someone is improvising:
This is actually very difficult and there is no single satisfying answer to this question. For starters, most small ensemble jazz is entirely improvised outside of the "head" (jazz terminology for playing the melody) and the occasional flourish. If you hear complex and deliberate harmonies in time with each other, that's usually a good indication that you're listening to something composed or pre-arranged. There are TONS of exceptions to this, however; free jazz contains ample opportunity for improvised harmony and there are solos that people have mistaken for heads and vice versa.

It is worth noting, however, that quality and complexity are very poor indicators of whether something is improvised or not. The best indicator, as I've mentioned previously, is when you are hearing extremely high levels of co-ordination, but even that is not great.

Take, for example, Freddie Hubbard's famous solo on One Finger Snap. One Finger Snap was originally envisioned as a four bar composed head followed by a long improvisation section, which they would alternate. However, Hubbard's initial improvisation was so good that people thought it *was* the head, and now it *is* the head since it's written into all the fakebooks.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I really like Charles Mingus' Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

It's one really long big piece, and it's excellent.

Mingus was kind of a tool though.
 
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