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Kotaku: Not Every Developer Is Convinced LP's Are A Good Thing (+ personal mulling)

I only watch LPs in three instances:

1. If it's a retro game and I want to reminisce (I'll usually just watch a speed run)
2. If I'm stuck on a level and need to see how someone else beat it
3. I like horror games, but I'm way too afraid to play them, so I'll watch someone else do it and still be able to enjoy the game
 
Undertale got it good from a lot of Let's Players - for instance, Game Grumps discouraged people from watching the video before playing it. More Let's Players need to encourage people to play the game before watching their videos, but I imagine they don't like to do that because it doesn't benefit them.

I only watch LPs in three instances:

1. If it's a retro game and I want to reminisce (I'll usually just watch a speed run)
2. If I'm stuck on a level and need to see how someone else beat it
3. I like horror games, but I'm way too afraid to play them, so I'll watch someone else do it and still be able to enjoy the game

For 1., what about modern games you want to reminisce? For instance, watching people experience the puzzles and twists of Portal 2.
 
To the people suggesting that lets players provide a link to buy the game, how would you feel if the lets players demanded a share kind of as commission? Because if you see a LP as free marketing, this would make sense.

edit: To clarify, that's not my point of view. It's just something I think follows from the argument that LP = marketing.
 
I support let's plays but it does make it difficult when great games like Soma struggle to make their money back. That game should have been much more popular being a first person horror game but I feel its focus on story makes people not bother playing it thenselves after watching it.
 
To the people suggesting that lets players provide a link to buy the game, how would you feel if the lets players demanded a share kind of as commission? Because if you see a LP as free marketing, this would make sense.

No though? LPers benefit from having the game available to play that drives viewers towards their channels. As big as PewDiePie is, a huge chunk of his size is thanks to having good content to LP in the first place.

Further, wouldn't the reverse be true that if the LPer got money for commissions for each copy sold, shouldn't the developer get a slice of the money they make off of merchandising sold through links on respective videos?
 
To the people suggesting that lets players provide a link to buy the game, how would you feel if the lets players demanded a share kind of as commission? Because if you see a LP as free marketing, this would make sense.

I think that in a lot of cases this would be fair (much like the way Amazon handles commissions), but in most cases the LPer isn't exactly doing this for free. They are already getting paid.
 

KyleCross

Member
I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?

Sadly, I don't think YouTube supports anything like this. The channel either gets all the revenue, or the people behind the game get all of it. It'd probably be a complicated mess to get something like that implented. So instead, in my opinion, LPers shouldn't be able to make money directly off of their LP videos. Instead, the LPer should have to make money with other means. Sponsors, merchandise, partners, etc. which most of the big time LPers have.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
dickgumshoe was taking the "LP is [always] free marketing and is [always] a good thing" to its logical conclusion. I don't think that's actually his stance.
 
I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?

But what if you're doing the Jim Sterling thing where you're warning people off a game? Should Digital Homicide receive 50% of revenue for Jim's videos on them?
 
dickgumshoe was taking the "LP is [always] free marketing and is [always] a good thing" to its logical conclusion. I don't think that's actually his stance.

Ah, okay. He should be more careful, making comments like that with that name!!

But what if you're doing the Jim Sterling thing where you're warning people off a game? Should Digital Homicide receive 50% of revenue for Jim's videos on them?

That's criticism. I believe that a developer could contentid his LP stuff, though if an LP is designed for the sake of helping to explain the problems - such as if it's trying to show off glitches, flaws, etc. - it's a lot greyer.
 

Guess Who

Banned
That particular one, no. But I watched their Metal Gear Rising playthrough and most of their Bloodborne playthroughs before buying those games, for example.

Sure, I've watched plenty of full-game LPs too, but did it take you all or even most of those games' full playthroughs to decide "hey, this looks like a game I would like?" I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes - I'm not big on Bloodborne so I can't comment, but MGR is a game you could sell to most people with the RAY fight alone, and everything up to the end of the first real mission at most for anyone else. The value of using an entire start-to-finish playthrough of a game as a promotional tool compared to just 30 minutes to an hour at most of highlights is dubious at best.
 

Cynar

Member
"Fuck you people with personal story about cancer told through the medium of their choice! BOOOOOOOOO"
He had a good point that people but games to play them. I think all let's plays are fair game. If someone wants to enjoy a game themselves they'll buy it. If the game is good the let's plays boost sales. Seems like some people are afraid of change.
 

Cynar

Member
I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?

Sadly, I don't think YouTube supports anything like this. The channel either gets all the revenue, or the people behind the game get all of it. It'd probably be a complicated mess to get something like that implented. So instead, in my opinion, LPers shouldn't be able to make money directly off of their LP videos. Instead, the LPer should have to make money with other means. Sponsors, merchandise, partners, etc. which most of the big time LPers have.
Your suggestion is insane as the let's players are making content.
 

RerezDude

Member
I've never had the desire to play through a whole game and upload it on my YouTube channel. I feel like, to an extent, removing the interaction of the game from a viewer hurts the overall experience.
 

KyleCross

Member
Your suggestion is insane as the let's players are making content.

They're making content WITH someone else's content. Just because they are the ones controlling the game, capturing the footage, and talking over it doesn't suddenly make it 100% their content.

There's a reason people like the Rifftrax guys record their commentary over a movie but only upload that audio commentary, you have to supply your own copy of the film. Now, you can't really do that with games as they're interactive, but it is an example. They supply 100% their content, LPers don't. So no, I don't think they should make 100% the income.
 

Stiler

Member
Aside from the Thefinebro's "React" series (IE Uncharted) I have never watched an entire full-length "playthrough" of a game.

I mean, if the person isn't commenting or there's no extra content over the game it seems a bit obtuse to me, why watch it (if I'm interested in the game) instead of playing it myself?

It's not like watching sports on tv (Cause we can't all play in the NFL or fight in the UFC afterall) but more like watching say, someone else watching a tv show. Why watch someone else watching a show instead of you yourself watching it?

Imagine for example, watching Mystery science theater 3000 and instead of them talking or anything you're literally watching them watch a movie and not saying a word or anything, that's what the non-commentary "lets plays" are like to me.

I will watch snippits of them to see how a game is or if I want to brush up on something before a game comes out to refresh my memory, but watching a full non-commentary "lets play" of a game has little interest to me.

I think that's the area they are getting at, about people who instead of buying a game, or watching a lets play with commentary/story or other content over the top of the game, it's the people who watch the games being played by someone else, if they are interested in teh game, and they watch them instead of buying the game.

There are many games that benefit from lets plays and exposure through the popular commentators like Pewdiepie/Boogie2988/Jim Sterling, and then there are games like this one and other story-focused linear games that suffer from all the other "lets play/no commentary" that people watch to experience the game's storyline and feel like there's no need for them to play the game.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
He had a good point that people but games to play them.
I think all let's plays are fair game.
If someone wants to enjoy a game themselves they'll buy it.
If the game is good the let's plays boost sales.
Seems like some people are afraid of change.
Oh yes, there's definitely people who are afraid of change.

It's not the developers. It's Let's Players and the viewers and the gamers who believe the status quo of unrestricted fan content and the singular definition of games and game design should be maintained forever.

Like it or not, streaming is an industry now and with any industry, especially cross-media entertainment, comes regulations.
 

DiscoJer

Member
They're making content WITH someone else's content. Just because they are the ones controlling the game, capturing the footage, and talking over it doesn't suddenly make it 100% their content.

There's a reason people like the Rifftrax guys record their commentary over a movie but only upload that audio commentary, you have to supply your own copy of the film. Now, you can't really do that with games as they're interactive, but it is an example. They supply 100% their content, LPers don't. So no, I don't think they should make 100% the income.

Rifftrax started having movies with the riffs built in, but in most cases, they license the films (though some are public domain) and they cost $10 vs just the riffs which are like $3

But yeah, that seems like that's the closest model to an LP
 
If you don't provide enough interactive content or interesting enough game play to make people want to play your game i don't really feel bad for you.

Either make a movie or make a game. Don't make a movie and call it a game and be surprised when people just want to watch it. This goes for big or small games. I watched most of call of duty ghosts in a let's play because the game play wasn't interesting. Same with heavy rain.

This. Go back to the way that Generations 1-6 were mostly about: Gameplay.
 

eXistor

Member
He knew going in that LP's are popular and this is exactly the kind of game people watch LP's for. I'm not surprised the game sold badly and let's be homest, the subject matter doesn't help either, it just doesn't appeal to a large audience. It sucks, but the writing was on the wall with this one.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
If something is getting millions of views on youtube, but really shitty sales, and the views are coming from videos that don't make the game look like shit, I think you can start arguing lost sales did occur. You can't quantify it, and you might never get money out of it, but at the same time, why do these people deserve to experience a huge portion of the game without paying? Beyond anything else, by saying it's ok to get something as long as you wouldn't pay money for it in the first place, aren't you creating a system that will continually devalue content?
Value too is murky and unclear thing as well it means different things mean things to different people. Many a time you see millions of views a good part of may come from who is doing it, some people on youtube have sizable audiences that will follow what they do regardless of the game being good or bad, you can't easily quantify what reason causes those numbers.

It's not a simple answer and it would not be right to say it's as simple as lost sales or lost revenue.

This is also a interesting process in the age of abundance that we may be on the cusp of where the old model won't work.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
There are plenty of those games around. There is room for other kinds of games for other kinds of consumers subject to other kinds of standards. Your demands of what "gaming should go back to" is, simply, myopic.

Enjoy modern music? I have no doubt there were classists who scoffed at the direction music was heading back in the 18th century. You wouldn't have the music you have today if creators listened to the "purists" back then. This worldview was as degenerative then as it is now.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Personally I think LP's reveal a critical weakness of games that depend heavily on non-interactive story elements as their main selling points. Essentially: games where the central concept doesn't have to be a video game in order to work.

An example off the top of my head: when I played the demo for Asura's Wrath I immediately got the sense I could have gotten the same enjoyment out of by watching the entire game on YouTube. The game was made to be so close to how an anime series is presented that watching it on YouTube would probably feel like watching a season of an anime show.

But I guess it could also depend on the user. I chose to watch an LP of Rise of the Tomb Raider instead of play it because somewhere along the line I realized I was only interested in the game for its graphics and possibly the story. TR2013 completely turned me off of the gamepaly. I don't think anyone would be able to easily do this for something like The Witcher 3 though. They'd probably have to watch over 100 YouTube videos to see all the good story elements, not to mention the choices.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Why is this a "weakness"? Anime and film production are very different from each other and from games. It's not a simple matter of "well, will I make an anime, or a movie, or a game, or a book?". The actual weakness, if there even is any, is with these other forms of media. Animes can't be interactive. Neither can movies shown in standard theaters. A game can deliver an experience almost identical to anime but an anime can never do some things games can.

And the creators deserve recompensation in any case if their work is consumed or adapted and redistributed with a little face in the corner. Standard IP protection law lagging behind the development of the internet is the real flaw in the system here. Not the developers, or the game themselves, or YouTube, or even, though I loathe to say it, the Let's Players, who are simply businessmen exploiting a new, unregulated market.
 

Guess Who

Banned
Personally I think LP's reveal a critical weakness of games that depend heavily on non-interactive story elements as their main selling points. Essentially: games where the central concept doesn't have to be a video game in order to work.

An example off the top of my head: when I played the demo for Asura's Wrath I immediately got the sense I could have gotten the same enjoyment out of by watching the entire game on YouTube. The game was made to be so close to how an anime series is presented that watching it on YouTube would probably feel like watching a season of an anime show.

But I guess it could also depend on the user. I chose to watch an LP of Rise of the Tomb Raider instead of play it because somewhere along the line I realized I was only interested in the game for its graphics and possibly the story. TR2013 completely turned me off of the gamepaly. I don't think anyone would be able to easily do this for something like The Witcher 3 though. They'd probably have to watch over 100 YouTube videos to see all the good story elements, not to mention the choices.

The solution to this isn't "let the game be recut into basically film form for the internet for free with no compensation to the game's creator", the solution is to allow the player to experience these types of games with little to no gameplay in a special mode for that purpose.

People will cry "but that removes the 'game' from the game!" but, I mean, that's what people who watch LPs are already doing anyway.
 

Riposte

Member
This is so similar to the whole piracy debate that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call it an extension of it.

The restrictive attitude as to what a game should and shouldn't be is absurd, imo.

But who is the one arguing they should be treated differently in this thread?

Honestly. Yeah.

A simple and direct solution.

Sounds like that restrictive attitude people keep talking about.

Yeah, it sucks.

Even though gaming is rapidly expanding and redefining itself year over year, the bulk of gamers are stuck somewhere in the 00s in terms of mindset. "Puzzle games are not worth $40", "storytelling games are not worth $15". Value of a game is still unreasonably focused on raw playtime (regardless of quality of that play time) and conservativel notions of "gameplay". For certain types of games, a Let's Play is basically redistribution of other people's product. That people think games are this one, immutable, concrete thing with only one standard for valuation doesn't change reality.

Too bad, I loved That Dragon despite its many flaws.

I think all of your posts in this thread are due for a rebuke, but since I don't want to bloat up this post with five or so quotes, I'll just try answering all of them at once while being as succinct as possible.

In the post above, like Griss, you want to make this seem like this is about some push back by old fogies stuck to their traditionalist ways. This is very misguided for two reasons: 1) "Let's Plays" and the youthful(!) YouTube culture (watch, don't play) surrounding them was just as disruptive to traditional games, 2) If the developer/publisher cannot deal with the market, maybe THEY are the ones who are stuck in the past. To put these points together, this whole bloodbath already happened and the result was mostly to let it fly free and wide - we are now even including one-button streaming right inside consoles! Who's stuck in the 00s, really? It's as if you are trying to project the developer's entitlement onto their customers.

It's not only videogames who are going through a weird time in this new age. Look at what has happened with television and music; it's even more dramatic than with videogames. Your whole line about this having anything to do with "games are art" comes across as bizarre, more so when considering these mediums people would struggle not to call art (nevermind that you could take a photograph of a painting or sculpture and put it on the internet, this is a pretty good analogue to "Let's Plays"). I won't get into a "what is art" debate (usually I can't resist!), but your whole point seems to come down to the idea that games are being limited by the rather obvious fact that people will only put money down on games they deem "valuable" and this "value" is (unfortunately, you may think) depended on various disruptive trends and technologies - so much for art, as you say. A notion like this becomes completely absurd if you treat it as any more serious than usual self-serving bellyaching (such as when those 00s guys (you want to wag your finger at) lament the effects of F2P, mobile, etc. - myself included!), and is yet another example of trying to pin the blame on the customer. Maybe people want to play this or that type of game, maybe enough don't, maybe this is influenced by streaming - so what? Are the artists owed the people's money? The problem is this: You want to play the capitalism game while also decrying it. They could have made this a totally "artistic" endeavor (whatever that may mean to you) and made it 100% free and wash their hands of the market (or, at least, the literal market). It's easy to see why they didn't: videogames are difficult to create. But why are they, rather than the hundred of thousands struggling artists, due a free pass here?

Then you strike a low blow, saying this game should be seen differently (morally speaking, no less!) because it happens to be based on an experience involving the death of a loved one. Truly, pure evil, these overly-popular youtube dorks. Do we really want to play that 'game' with what is a commercial product to begin with? Profit is being made off of the tragedy no matter who is getting it and considering this is a separate artistic recreation, it's not like anyone literally grave-robbing. Frankly, if people watching someone play on your game is theft, then it should be considered theft no matter the subject matter. What you've lost is the x amount of dollars you think they would have otherwise paid, no more, no less. And since the world of media has no troubles with cancer, war, and so on being common themes in commercial products, it's seems ridiculous to try to put your foot down on this and not genocide documentaries on Netflix (or Piratebay, if we want to see it that way). Moralizing attempts like this are best left to politicking.

If the the developer feels that they are having their content stolen, they have the tools on YouTube to stop that (and YouTube is enough of a nightmare to usually favor your side); this is mentioned in the article/blog itself. However, as we have seen in the past, this will result in a huge hit in your public image. Again, I'm reminded of the piracy debate. You could put DRM on your game or make it always online. The question is will you hurt yourself more than you would have doing nothing at all. There's no clear cut answer, but the way the things are now, a liberal approach is favored. This conclusion was reached naturally and the market adapted to the best of its ability.

Going back to the first paragraph, I don't know why you insist on combining the issues of interactive-lite games and free-form streaming. The latter may affect the former, but only as a matter of consequence, not intent. To become so bothered by this that you begin to call Let's Play streamers stuck in the past, all the while flailing from one semi-related point to the next, I can't help but accuse you of being the one stuck in the past. I'm no big fan of Let's Plays, in fact, I can scantily recall watching one, but it would be delusional for me to ignore their new place in the economy of things simply because I didn't like what they did to games I like. The people who want to make those games and profit, not the gamers who you seem to want to blame, are going to have to figure out how to solve that (and attacking Let's Plays directly doesn't seem like a good idea).
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
People will cry "but that removes the 'game' from the game!" but, I mean, that's what people who watch LPs are already doing anyway.

This is such a salient point.

"But muh PURITY OF GAMEPLAY. Let's Plays are okay though, no reason to play games yourself if you can't be arsed to."

In an industry that thrives on people not making the effort to play games, bringing up "games should be about gameplay" is total nonsense.

EDIT: I apologize Riposte, but I've had my fill of this debate and likely won't be around to address your rebuke, which is honest and respected. I'll try to get around to it tomorrow.
 
LP'ing the whole damn game with barely any commentary does seem like pretty shitty thing to do.

Sorry, but I have to say that most commentaries on gameplay walkthroughs are annoying & takes away the excitement & the suspense of a game.

And to be honest, I really don't see the big deal about LP's. They shouldn't be condemned. I'm not going to take a risk or a gamble & shell out a lot of money for each game that may or may not hold my interest.
 

MogCakes

Member
I don't think anyone would be able to easily do this for something like The Witcher 3 though. They'd probably have to watch over 100 YouTube videos to see all the good story elements, not to mention the choices.

All hail massively long RPGs. It helps that LPers often only stick with a game for a few videos.
 

Riposte

Member
The solution to this isn't "let the game be recut into basically film form for the internet for free with no compensation to the game's creator", the solution is to allow the player to experience these types of games with little to no gameplay in a special mode for that purpose.

People will cry "but that removes the 'game' from the game!" but, I mean, that's what people who watch LPs are already doing anyway.

What does having an option to remove interactivity have to do with games having little interactivity to begin with? I think the premise of this thread (or at least RedSwirl's point) depends on the idea that games where the experience of watching it is little different than the experience of playing it are hurt more by streaming.

Many "very easy" modes already achieve what you say for most players.

Also I wonder what your solution really provides in competition to Let's Plays (or playlists of cutscnes on YouTube, for that matter). They are going to a buy game to watch it without the interactive parts instead of watching someone play the full thing for free?
 

jdstorm

Banned
I know I have personally bough multiple games due to seeing them via Let's play. However I have also stayed away from a few for the same reason. Overall I'd say LPs have contributed to me spending more money then I have saved by choosing to not buy games I've seen a LP or a Speedrun of.

If I were to propose a solution it's that game publishers should do exclusivity deals with let's players. Just like radio stations have to licence music LPers should have to lisence games they want to broadcast. It's a simple and elegant sollution when both parties are relying on the monetisation of the creative work for their living
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
In the post above, like Griss, you want to make this seem like this is about some push back by old fogies stuck to their traditionalist ways....Who's stuck in the 00s, really?

1) It’s true Let’s Plays were disruptive but they are now a fact of gaming like streaming and emphasis on multiplayer. This is the past I’m referring to. Perhaps 00s was a bit too far back? 2010s then. Gaming is evolving rapidly enough that 5 years can change the landscape, and 2010 can be "the past". It certainly is for me as a DOTA player. From $1 million prize pools to $15 million and three $3 million majors is enough of a paradigm shift, right?

2) This is a destructive stance from my point of view. If games like That Dragon, Cancer, aren’t protected somehow and disappear, then gaming is less for it. I try to focus on how gaming can be more expressive, not less, market forces be damned,
It's as if you are trying to project the developer's entitlement onto their customers.
3) I might be, because it’s about time. I’ve been seeing a lot of player entitlement in recent years: paid mods is another good example of “you mean I should PAY for WORK? Preposterous. What happened to the good old days of free mods?”. You can see posts to this effect in this very thread. Don't pretend they're not there. As far I’m concerned, the same drama is playing out in the streaming world. The reason I am projecting instead of the developers is because they are afraid of any and all public relations hits. They can only meekly accept the status quo or wind up getting boycott bombed to oblivion. Modern consumers now have this level of power and influence, and I don't think highly of your average modern day consumer of games.

It's not only videogames who are going through a weird time in this new age.ple want to play this or that type of game, maybe enough don't, maybe this is influenced by streaming - so what?
I don't think the artists are owed anything... in a standard piracy scenario. But in this case there's someone, the redistributors themselves in fact, directly profiting off said "streaming". I'd like to think that changes the calculus somewhat.

But why are they, rather than the hundred of thousands struggling artists, due a free pass here?

Where did I say the hundreds of thousands of struggling artists shouldn’t also get protection from the entitlement of consumers? I simply don’t engage in music enough to warrant commenting on it even if I support smaller maligned artists in spirit. Plus, this is a topic about these specific developers. I think all small developers/artists should be protected from having their work effectively uploaded to a free service. There are now tons of systems in place to get music onto youtube, or other streaming services, legally and where all involved parties are fairly compensated, but not for games. That is what I’m asking for, is this wrong? Is asking for the same treatment of Let's Plays for certain games, that music and film has received, in the face of piracy, these solutions other markets have arrived to, misguided?

Then you strike a low blow, saying this game should be seen differently (morally speaking, no less!) because it happens to be based on an experience involving the death of a loved one.

I entertained suggesting the viewers should at least consider donating to a cancer organization/hospital. I refrained, because I didn’t want to take it that far. I will though, if you want to go down this route.

OPEN REQUEST

Donate to Memorial Sloan Kettering, a hospital that I’ve went to for my own struggles with neurodegenerative disease if you watched at least 30 minutes of That Dragon, Cancer footage, but didn’t pay a cent: https://www.mskcc.org/

And send a copy of the receipt to the developers to show they’ve made a difference even if they didn’t profit from it. Even $5 seems fair, no?

If the the developer feels that they are having their content stolen, they have the tools on YouTube to stop that (and YouTube is enough of a nightmare to usually favor your side); this is mentioned in the article/blog itself.

I think YouTube should assume some responsibility here, but I know they won’t, as I’ve mentioned. Furthermore, I don't think this is "the best" conclusion the market has reached, if there can ever be a "best conclusion". It's simply one stop on a continuous line of market shifts, for which I'm advocating another shift, the same shift that has happened in sister industries like music and film.

The people who want to make those games and profit, not the gamers who you seem to want to blame, are going to have to figure out how to solve that (and attacking Let's Plays directly doesn't seem like a good idea).

I have not called Let’s Players stuck in the past to the best of my knowledge. On the contrary, I believe they, like streamers, are the newest entrepreneurs of gaming. My ire, though it hasn’t always been clear since I’m running on stream-of-consciousness, has always been directed at gamers who think the internet will and should be their open playground in perpetuity, which is neither realistic nor respectable. A lot of personal bias is at play here, I’ll admit, because I don’t typically engage in gaming side shitstorms, but I’m venting a lot of frustration I’ve built up over the years, as an observer, in this thread so that’s why my posts are haphazard.
 

Abounder

Banned
Now that's an indie nightmare - get millions of views in exposure plus positive feedback, yet flop in sales. I doubt the youtube revenue would've made up for it as well but I'm no expert. It'll also be interesting to see how Virtual Reality affects LP's and the industry's reaction
 
This is so similar to the whole piracy debate that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to call it an extension of it.



But who is the one arguing they should be treated differently in this thread?



Sounds like that restrictive attitude people keep talking about.



I think all of your posts in this thread are due for a rebuke, but since I don't want to bloat up this post with five or so quotes, I'll just try answering all of them at once while being as succinct as possible.

In the post above, like Griss, you want to make this seem like this is about some push back by old fogies stuck to their traditionalist ways. This is very misguided for two reasons: 1) "Let's Plays" and the youthful(!) YouTube culture (watch, don't play) surrounding them was just as disruptive to traditional games, 2) If the developer/publisher cannot deal with the market, maybe THEY are the ones who are stuck in the past. To put these points together, this whole bloodbath already happened and the result was mostly to let it fly free and wide - we are now even including one-button streaming right inside consoles! Who's stuck in the 00s, really? It's as if you are trying to project the developer's entitlement onto their customers.

It's not only videogames who are going through a weird time in this new age. Look at what has happened with television and music; it's even more dramatic than with videogames. Your whole line about this having anything to do with "games are art" comes across as bizarre, more so when considering these mediums people would struggle not to call art (nevermind that you could take a photograph of a painting or sculpture and put it on the internet, this is a pretty good analogue to "Let's Plays"). I won't get into a "what is art" debate (usually I can't resist!), but your whole point seems to come down to the idea that games are being limited by the rather obvious fact that people will only put money down on games they deem "valuable" and this "value" is (unfortunately, you may think) depended on various disruptive trends and technologies - so much for art, as you say. A notion like this becomes completely absurd if you treat it as any more serious than usual self-serving bellyaching (such as when those 00s guys (you want to wag your finger at) lament the effects of F2P, mobile, etc. - myself included!), and is yet another example of trying to pin the blame on the customer. Maybe people want to play this or that type of game, maybe enough don't, maybe this is influenced by streaming - so what? Are the artists owed the people's money? The problem is this: You want to play the capitalism game while also decrying it. They could have made this a totally "artistic" endeavor (whatever that may mean to you) and made it 100% free and wash their hands of the market (or, at least, the literal market). It's easy to see why they didn't: videogames are difficult to create. But why are they, rather than the hundred of thousands struggling artists, due a free pass here?

Then you strike a low blow, saying this game should be seen differently (morally speaking, no less!) because it happens to be based on an experience involving the death of a loved one. Truly, pure evil, these overly-popular youtube dorks. Do we really want to play that 'game' with what is a commercial product to begin with? Profit is being made off of the tragedy no matter who is getting it and considering this is a separate artistic recreation, it's not like anyone literally grave-robbing. Frankly, if people watching someone play on your game is theft, then it should be considered theft no matter the subject matter. What you've lost is the x amount of dollars you think they would have otherwise paid, no more, no less. And since the world of media has no troubles with cancer, war, and so on being common themes in commercial products, it's seems ridiculous to try to put your foot down on this and not genocide documentaries on Netflix (or Piratebay, if we want to see it that way). Moralizing attempts like this are best left to politicking.

If the the developer feels that they are having their content stolen, they have the tools on YouTube to stop that (and YouTube is enough of a nightmare to usually favor your side); this is mentioned in the article/blog itself. However, as we have seen in the past, this will result in a huge hit in your public image. Again, I'm reminded of the piracy debate. You could put DRM on your game or make it always online. The question is will you hurt yourself more than you would have doing nothing at all. There's no clear cut answer, but the way the things are now, a liberal approach is favored. This conclusion was reached naturally and the market adapted to the best of its ability.

Going back to the first paragraph, I don't know why you insist on combining the issues of interactive-lite games and free-form streaming. The latter may affect the former, but only as a matter of consequence, not intent. To become so bothered by this that you begin to call Let's Play streamers stuck in the past, all the while flailing from one semi-related point to the next, I can't help but accuse you of being the one stuck in the past. I'm no big fan of Let's Plays, in fact, I can scantily recall watching one, but it would be delusional for me to ignore their new place in the economy of things simply because I didn't like what they did to games I like. The people who want to make those games and profit, not the gamers who you seem to want to blame, are going to have to figure out how to solve that (and attacking Let's Plays directly doesn't seem like a good idea).

Bravo. Couldnt have said it better myself.

Ill say it again.

Demos used to be a issue:- By and large most games dont have demos.
Piracy used to be an issue:- Online only games, Steam and better console protection makes this much less an issue.

Now with those two avenues exhausted developers are now using LP as a boggyman as why their games arent selling. When LPs get resisticted There will be another excuse.
 
The demo argument is questionable because it boils down to bad games may get accidentally bought without information while word of mouth will get good games bought regardless. Its an argument for depriving consumers of information because otherwise the free market might actually function correctly and that would be terrible.

That Dragon Cancer (and those like it) really don't take LPs well because their isn't really a game , they are stories / movies with token interactive elements. So LPs give everything away, and there no reason to play yourself. Its like seeing someone else play through every branch of a visual novel or read an entire book outloud. Their very nature makes them unsuitable for LPs to bring in more sales.
 

Lucreto

Member
I watch LP games on games that I don't have the time or patience to actually play.

I am watching Bloodborne on Game Grumps while I am exercising. I never intended in getting the game as I don't have the patience and enough time to sit and play it. I will probably be doing it again with Dark Souls 3 as my backlog is too big.

I also watch some retro games like Kings Quest, games I haven't played in years and wanting to see other people experience the games.
 
I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?

Sadly, I don't think YouTube supports anything like this. The channel either gets all the revenue, or the people behind the game get all of it. It'd probably be a complicated mess to get something like that implented.

Yeah that's the issue. It's baffling YouTube doesn't allow revenue sharing, especially when it already does so with content providers (if a video has several Content ID claims on it, revenue gets shared between them, I suppose relative to the number of minutes watched).
 
Rightfully so, yes it can be seen as free marketing but it can also ruin certain aspects of a game, if someone uploaded a bunch of TV shows and Movies to Youtube with a commentary over them there would be an issue. My concern is that some people just watch games rather than playing them, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think thats how this form of entertainment is meant to be enjoyed, some people like it and thats cool. Maybe I'm out of touch.

I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?

Sadly, I don't think YouTube supports anything like this. The channel either gets all the revenue, or the people behind the game get all of it. It'd probably be a complicated mess to get something like that implented. So instead, in my opinion, LPers shouldn't be able to make money directly off of their LP videos. Instead, the LPer should have to make money with other means. Sponsors, merchandise, partners, etc. which most of the big time LPers have.

Right on the money, I don't think the players should be entitled to anything quite honestly but I also don't want to take careers away.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
There's the argument that pirated copies of a game are not actually correlate to potential sales of a game. Basically, the people that pirated the game are by and large not people who would have bought it in the first place.

I think that's doubly, triply so for let's plays. I know these people who gorge themselves on lets plays without playing the game. These people never gave one shit about the game in the first place. They had no mental plans to ever buy the game. Their finger was nowhere close to the "buy" trigger. And watching the let's play didn't dissuade them from some inevitable purchase.

They're voyeurs, tangentially interested in the subject, but not that much.

It's like the afternoon I spent reading wikipedia about Phillip K. Dick novels. It was a neat look into that world. But I never had an intention to start reading them in the first place.

I think it makes sense that there are tons of people who want to look at "This Dragon, Cancer" in order to answer the question "What IS this?", and that they are a magnitude larger of a group than those who actually intend to ever play it.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I believe publishers/developers should get at least 50% of all ad revenue for any gaming videos. Bottom line is; it isn't entirely your content. You merely playing a game and talking over it doesn't make everything yours, so why should you keep all the money?.

Should movie studios get 50% of revenue from movie critics too? Or book publishers takint 50% of money from PublishersWeekly magazine? Heck, should farming tools manufacturers get percent from produce sales?
On one hand it feels wrong that somebody is making money using your content without giving you a dime, but it';s just difficult to specify a concrete line where from sensible it becomes ridiculous like my examples.
 

Guess Who

Banned
Should movie studios get 50% of revenue from movie critics too? Or book publishers takint 50% of money from PublishersWeekly magazine? Heck, should farming tools manufacturers get percent from produce sales?

Movie critics don't include the whole contents of the movie with their free criticism, nor does PublishersWeekly. Farming tools makers make their money selling tools, not produce, and the existence of produce can under no circumstance undermine the need for anyone to buy a farming tool, which is such an obvious and pointless statement it makes me weirded out that I have to say it.

This thread is a goldmine of awful analogies.
 

Corpekata

Banned
50 percent is an awful baseline.

People aren't watching PewdiePie for the glorious Happy Wheels content. They're watching for him. It's not like people are searching "Happy Wheels videos" and clicking random shit.

For a more accurate analgoy, should the MST3K guys pay the Manos Hands of Fates producers half the profit for that video when the only reason anyone knows that movie exists is because of MST3k?

MST3K licenses stuff so it's not a perfect analogy (though they did it with a lot of public domain stuff too) so something should be considered monetary wise, but nowhere near 50 percent.
 
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