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[Alchemy]

I love the idea that the developers didn't want to change this pose because it was in the game originally, just like how Overwatch is a fucking MMO still right?

The wild thing about game development is that it happens over the course of years and is highly iterative. AND YOU MISS THINGS because after staring at something for years you skip over things and miss tiny details that might not fit into your final vision for the game.

Things happen, developers listen to feedback and change things based on it, it's completely their choice, deal with it buttnerds.

 

[potatohead]

You'd rather they caved to your "I'm outraged" pressure instead? And of course that isn't censorship. This might be a good read for you: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/ove...oved-due-to-fan-feedback-more-feedback-ensues

Ah thank you, great article.

This brings us to the talk of outrage. "Outrage" has come to mean any feedback that we disagree with. That's not just in the gaming sphere, mind you, it's a pretty wide-ranging phenomenon. If we categorize everything we disagree with as outrage, it helps us not have to deal with the content of that disagreement. Because outrage is bad. It's irrational and angry. It is below us, the royal "us", who are cool, calm, and collected. We are rational beings and outrage is the refuge of the weak. (It's "righteous anger", when you're doing it right.)

But that original post wasn't outrage. It was barely angry. You can disagree with its argument, but call it what it is. It's feedback. We're allowed to give feedback. That is one of the wonderful things about free speech. You can say what you want within reason and your voice will potentially be heard. Sometimes, when your voice is heard, the creator or developer will decide, "You know what? You're right. Let's change it." They are also allowed to do that for various reasons, some ethical and some cynical.

Good excerpt from there.

I'm always amazed at how people are so quick to jump to the censorship bandwagon.

Anything that is remotely disagreeable in terms of any sexualized content is always somehow "censorship."

Not because it's actually censorship, but simply because of not being agreeable enough lmao.

Except it's really just more about the freedom of the developers to choose what they want for any of the reasons they want.

That is freedom. Fucks sake no one know how to freedom anymore?!

 

[ironcreed]

You sound pretty offended

Not at all. But you certainly do.

 

[Opto]

Why would I be offended? I merely remarked that what you said had zero bearing on what I was referring to.

wooooosh

 

[Odrion]

It sucked that characters in Mortal Kombat sweat instead of bled in the SNES version because it heavily damaged the ethos of the game (it's a game all about it's gore and brutal nature) but R. Mika's super change doesn't matter because SF5 was still a fighting game with lots of sex appeal.

 

[ironcreed]

wooooosh

Right.

 

[Warxard]

Nah, fuck it let me get out of this thread before I get banned again.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Thank goodness, now I'll be able to buy the game without fear of seeing a clothed butt. I agree, it is very out of character for someone like Tracer to face a direction.

I don't really care that they took it out, but the reasoning for doing so is just stupid. It's not even like some super vulgar pose, she's just got her back to the camera. I don't think you could pay me to care so much about something so minor

 

[.JayZii]

*calls Space Dandy*

Unfortunately, he's on a booby day today.

 

[Dice//]

It sucked that characters in Mortal Kombat sweat instead of bled in the SNES version because it heavily damaged the ethos of the game (it's a game all about it's gore and brutal nature) but R. Mika's super change doesn't matter because it's still a fighting game with lots of sex appeal.

If a game is about fighting, let them fight. No need to throws giant tits and ass slaps to any characters with tits and an ass.

In the case where blood is taken out, I agree. In the case of Dead or Alive Xtreme and it's clearly set target audience, lett them tits out. But if the market is for the masses, Blizzard had a lot more to consider here.

 

[Odrion]

If a game is about fighting, let them fight. No need to throws giant tits and ass slaps to any characters with tits and an ass.

In the case where blood is taken out, I agree. In the case of Dead or Alive Xtreme and it's clearly set target audience, lett them tits out. But if the market is for the masses, Blizzard had a lot more to consider here.

Yeah, inflating the boobs and asses of all the SFV ladies didn't work out for Capcom did it?

 

[Opto]

If anything, the outrage over criticism just shows devs might be wary of letting people know about small cosmetic changes or internalization of feed back.

 

[ymgve]

Rockstar is known for making 18+ games. I doubt this game will be 18+. They are one of the biggest exception the industry has and they are the only one with balls to say "NO" to whoever complains about them.

Because they can.

But that it's 18+ doesn't matter. If bad PR was so devastating, GTA would be boycotted to the point where it wouldn't have any sales at all.

My argument is that articles about your game being slightly sexist/offensive/whatever doesn't affect your sales at all - and maybe, just maybe, the devs that change their games after customer feedback simply does it because they think "hmm, maybe the people complaining have a point?"

 

[Maedhros]

If a game is about fighting, let them fight. No need to throws giant tits and ass slaps to any characters with tits and an ass.

In the case where blood is taken out, I agree. In the case of Dead or Alive Xtreme and it's clearly set target audience, lett them tits out. But if the market is for the masses, Blizzard had a lot more to consider here.

Why not?

But that it's 18+ doesn't matter. If bad PR was so devastating, GTA would be boycotted to the point where it wouldn't have any sales at all.

My argument is that articles about your game being slightly sexist/offensive/whatever doesn't affect your sales at all - and maybe, just maybe, the devs that change their games after customer feedback simply does it because they think "hmm, maybe the people complaining have a point?"

The problem with your argument is that you're using Rockstar and fucking GTA... a game that's historically about crime, drugs and prostituition. Rockstar will get the sales no matter fucking what.

It doesn't compare with Blizzard at all.

 

[Funyarinpa]

On one hand I do see the point that this could be censorship but in this particular case it seems like the developers listened to fan feedback, which is a respectable move either way.

Does not seem like too big an issue for me, honestly- seems to me that Blizzard had a sincere change of heart about the pose. Don't think that happens very often though, so I disagree with the overall stance of "lol censorship whiners" people. Not in this case though, this seems fine.

 

[mindsale]

Thank god. Tracer's clothed body facing a direction really hindered my enjoyment of the game.

 

[Siege.exe]

The littlest things these days........

In this case, I'd say it's quite literally the littlest thing.

 

[Dice//]

Yeah, inflating the boobs and asses of all the SFV ladies didn't work out for Capcom did it?

Not sure if sarcasm?
It's noticeable and awkward is what I'll say about it. Game still looks super pretty.

If anything, the outrage over criticism just shows devs might be wary of letting people know about small cosmetic changes or internalization of feed back.

Maybe subliminal change is better. No ass shots and no press about it. Then we get a topic two years from now asking "where did they all go". ..that's kinda funny to imagine (I'm also super tired)

Why not?

I could ask the same to you on your stance.

 

[Finaika]

Why not?

Its hard to fight with giant tits and ass.

 

[SteveO409]

What a time to be alive...this thread has over 1,000+ posts. That's more than the average OT for a game lol

 

[KyleCross]

Hurrah for censorship. Things are getting kinda nuts. There's no way NOT to be offensive to at least someone in the world. I'm wondering where the line will be drawn. I personally think the pose looks awkward, not sexy. Still, just because I think it looks bad doesn't mean that the creators should have to remove it.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Yeaaaahh... no. I'll NEVER agree with that notion. It's censorship. Censorship doesn't only comes from the freaking governenment. As you even said, external force, is our whole culture of PC.

PC culture? I love when people bash it. All PC culture is is people daring to ask that a subject be treated with respect, or calling folks out on bigotry, sexism, etc etc.

Complaining about it is basically crying that anyone who dares speak out about that sort of thing be silenced because you don't want to hear them.

 

[Myspcr_Shadow]

Your lack of basic empathy and perspective is showing but what about my urges for butts I know I know...

My apologies to anyone that is truly bother by this. I just feel like it was a small thing to complain about and the person had his/her way because he/she felt uncomfortable.

 

[Dmax3901]

Nah, fuck it let me get out of this thread before I get banned again.

Boo Boo'n
BANNED

Fucking LOL.

 

[Hard]

I don't understand. Why is Tracer not allowed to be sexy? I don't like the implication that you need to go all out with the fan-service like Widowmaker to make poses like this. Normal women are allowed to have their sexy moments at their leisure, that doesn't keep them from being themselves 99% of the time, why should Tracer be held to a different standard?

 

[Gator86]

Denying rights to LGBT people is certainly just as bad as a well made case against one video games character's ONE VICTORY POSE

Basically. Every time I read a GAF "censorship" thread or one about diversity in gaming, I remember that the strict moderation is the only thing keeping this place above YouTube commentary-level discourse.

 

[Maedhros]

Its hard to fight with giant tits and ass.

It's fucking videogame. There's no logic to the physics. And seriously, it's part of what amuses me, seeing characters with impossible bodies doing things that we can't see in the real world.

Game designers shouldn't try to strive for realism all the time... another trend that I hate in recent games.

What a time to be alive...this thread has over 1,000+ posts. That's more than the average OT for a game lol

Welcome to a forum, where people argue about things that they think are worth it.

Who even play games in 2016 anyway? It's all about complaining these days.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Yeah, inflating the boobs and asses of all the SFV ladies didn't work out for Capcom did it?

That's not the reason for SFV's poor sales. Maybe a small percentage.

 

[Odrion]

Not sure if sarcasm?

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

 

[the_batman]

I don't understand. Why is Tracer not allowed to be sexy? I don't like the implication that you need to go all out with the fan-service like Widowmaker to make poses like this. Normal women are allowed to have their sexy moments at their leisure, that doesn't keep them from being themselves 99% of the time, why should Tracer be held to a different standard?

because video game characters represent all of humanity! we have to keep them safe!

 

[Kintaro]

I don't understand. Why is Tracer not allowed to be sexy? I don't like the implication that you need to go all out with the fan-service like Widowmaker to make poses like this. Normal women are allowed to have their sexy moments at their leisure, that doesn't keep them from being themselves 99% of the time, why should Tracer be held to a different standard?

Personality.

<shrugs>

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

This is pretty foolish. SF4 was full of TNA during its entire run. SFV has no more or less. Has no one close to Poison in SF4. SFV struggles for many, many other reasons. Boobs and ass aren't one of them. Considering it's always had them.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

because video game characters represent all of humanity! we have to keep them safe!

You continue to not make sense.

 

[ymgve]

The problem with your argument is that you're using Rockstar and fucking GTA... a game that's historically about crime, drugs and prostituition. Rockstar will get the sales no matter fucking what.

It doesn't compare with Blizzard at all.

Which is why I asked for examples where bad PR actually impacted a game negatively. In GTA's case obviously not; Dragon's Crown as I mentioned probably gained from the extra PR and Hatred sold just as well as you'd expect a non-ironic reimagination of the original Postal would.

 

[Dice//]

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

I did not know that. :/

because video game characters represent all of humanity! we have to keep them safe!

It's weird, you seem to think art doesn't reflect reality and reality doesn't reflect art?? I assure you, these things don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Maedhros]

PC culture? I love when people bash it. All PC culture is is people daring to ask that a subject be treated with respect, or calling folks out on bigotry, sexism, etc etc.

Complaining about it is basically crying that anyone who dares speak out about that sort of thing be silenced because you don't want to hear them.

Bullshit.

I agree with the notion that people can complain about these things and that developers should choose to agree or not. I'm trying to argue that's not what happening in these recently changes in the last years.

Companies are being forced to take these instancies, more and more. I feel that people that argues that Blizzard did this because of the goodness in their heart are naive.

 

[CLEEK]

Read the forum post this kicked this off. The gist of it was a literal "won't someone think of the children?"

I have a young daughter that everyday when I wake up wants to watch the recall trailer again. She knows who tracer is, and as she grows up, she can grow up alongside these characters.

If you have young children, exposing them to violent videogames isn't the best idea. Overwatch is rated T (Teen) for a reason. All kids will recognise violence, whether in games, or TV or any other media. Until they start having sexual thoughts of their own, they won't think there is anything sexual about that pose. They'll be completely oblivious to it.

I assume the person complaining is from the US. I will never understand how many Americans have puritanical views towards sex while not blinking an eye at violence.

 

[the_batman]

You continue to not make sense.

neither does the reasoning behind changing her pose.

 

[Crocodile]

Leave it to NeoGaf to turn this into a 1000+ post thread

Real talk though, my thoughts were that I would be pretty upset at Blizzard if they actually used "ethics" as their reason but that appears to have just been from some unaffiliated tweet. Looking at the actual rationale given I can understand the rationale to a degree. I just find it really hard to understand or sympathize how this optional pose is discomforting to any significant number of people. I can't nor am I going to straight up tell people they can't feel the way they want to feel and this is insignificant enough that I doubt many people will care in the end that this gets removed. It's just in this circumstance, I'm like really? I don't think this is really a thing worth having a bloody battle over and I don't think its removal necessarily sends any bad messages but like....really? Ah well, life moves on I guess.

 

[Stall19]

The overblown reaction to them removing it is just as absurd as them removing. So what they removed it? It's just a victory pose for christ sake.

 

[blankempathy]

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

Umm are we just going to ignore the bad word of mouth from the limited content at launch and so on?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

neither does the reasoning behind changing her pose.

Too bad you don't work on the game.

 

[kiryogi]

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

That's such a stretch, we've seen a million topics on the front of GAF on why SFV didn't perform so hot. TNA was far from the reasoning, it was due to it's release state and possible emphasis on the competitive scene. This is absolute bait trash post.

 

[chaobreaker]

Bullshit.

I agree with the notion that people can complain about these things and that developers should choose to agree or not. I'm trying to argue that's not what happening in these recently changes in the last years.

Companies are being forced to take these instancies, more and more. I feel that people that argues that Blizzard did this because of the goodness in their heart are naive.

...Blizzard reps literally wrote that they agreed with the original poster's complaints. It's right on the OP. If you going to call the liars then you better have some actual evidence of them being forced to remove the pose.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Bullshit.

I agree with the notion that people can complain about these things and that developers should choose to agree or not. I'm trying to argue that's not what happening in these recently changes in the last years.

Companies are being forced to take these instancies, more and more. I feel that people that argues that Blizzard did this because of the goodness in their heart are naive.

No, no one is forcing them to do anything. Well, that is unless folks are secretly buying up tons of company stock or passing laws that I don't know about.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that a developer can never agree with any of this criticism, which is just an asinine assumption. Artists and such in a game dev do not have unlimited artist freedom, they do what their bosses tell them to do, for any number of reason that their boss might decide to take action for.

In this case, someone with creative control made a choice, and they are free to do so. Random folks posting here or there or writing articles? They don't have that sort of control.

 

[Crocodile]

It was a commercial flop. The TNA emphasis didn't seem to increase sales (when compared to SF4), and maybe it actually hurt them. At least Blizzard thinks that could be a factor for losing customers with their game, and those guys know how to sell games.

C'mon that had like zero reason to do with SFV underselling. $60 + feature light (especially features for casuals) + online launch issues hurt the game. It was rushed to market.

 

[rjcc]

watching the mental gymnastics of people deeply horrified that a single pose for a single character will not go from the beta to retail is amazing.


It's weird, nobody seems to be asking why Genji doesn't have an over the shoulder pose, or if that's censorship.

 

[Princess Carl]

You continue to not make sense.

Does ignorant sexism ever make sense?

 

[veloxStrix]

I don't mind people having an issue with something - that's just feedback and allowed - and I don't really see what I lost by having this removed, so I'm not really mad at all. It's not like Fire Emblem - which was also not a huge issue, disappointing, but it shouldn't deter 90% of players from buying it - where the game was changed after it was already released in some complete form.

But what I don't get is the complaint about her "not wearing pants". Has no one seen people wearing leggings or yoga pants? Not much of a difference, other than the coloration and material (for the most part. My fiance has a pair of tan leggings that are hilarious which she owns for when she feels like getting a laugh at the gym, but I don't think those are the norm).

 

[Onivulk]

Can we still do this in game though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhmiWYrpojo

 

[Hard]

I assume the person complaining is from the US. I will never understand how many Americans have puritanical views towards sex while not blinking an eye at violence.

Media is partly to blame. Nearly every day on the news, we're hearing a story about how some guy got murdered, or a store got robbed, or some person was sexually assaulted. Over time, it really desensitizes you to that kind of stuff. I look at the news, see this, and feel bad for a little bit, then I move on. I know it's kind of messed up, but that's the way it is.

Sex, on the other hand, is a very private, intimate affair that we almost never hear about in the main media channels.

EDIT: Kinda explains why shooting people to death is OK, but sticking one's butt out is out of line :^)