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[Cabbagehead]

There's always a middle ground. It's just that everyone draws the line in different places and that's what everyone argues about.

But was saying that we shouldn't argue about it because he draws the line in a different place and that's the line that other people shouldn't draw the line in a tertiary different place.

I feel like I'm trying to describe why people argue about things and why it's necessary.

There are many different opinions out there and someone thinks your opinion is just as invalid as you think there's is.

Then people need to pick their battles. An not pick at every single perceived notion that something,which is not to their liking falls into a strong buzzword box. Because again anything can be labeled racist, homophobic, anti-religious...etc but that doesn't make it a fact. When context is ignored otherwise people are judging a book by its cover.

 

[Camp Freddie]

If one were to be charitable, you could argue that they are making a statement about judging something on its face without context or specific knowledge.

Is The Chinese Room an actual Chinese Room? Maybe The Chinese Room is a character in Cyberpunk 2077 and we've entered a whole new level of meta-promotion.

In any case, Cyberpunk as a genre is literally about the power dynamics in a world of Nieztschean ubermenschen. In cyberpunk,"God is dead" and people can transcend a lot of traditional limits, so what does society become? Does it make society more sexist, oppressive and dystopian, or does it provide a way to create a new, better society.
The question of whether razorgirls are empowered (anti)heroines seeking their own path in a corrupt society or if they are just doomed pawns that have just accepted the sexual objectification that is forced upon them (c.f. Neuromancer's Molly, which is basically the source of the whole trope).

The game could be sexist or not. It depends on what happens to the razorgirl character. Maybe they'll go for Quiet-esque bullshit like, "She's not wearing many clothes because she has metal skin", but I have faith that CDProject will make it a lot more nuanced than that.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

And see I'm down with playing Devil's Advocate, it's a very enlightening experience and helps push out weak arguments people have and really get them to dig to their core beliefs to try and argue a topic.

But doing so by making up strawman quotes showing the other side in the worst possible light, so you can engage them and feel like you're the victor is sad. It's not doing a fucking thing to convince anyone in this thread anything. All it's doing is stroking their own ego.

What interests me is that all the "Mortal kombat characters doing normal things" posters seem to do it to a certain degree.

I just ignore their posts honestly.

 

[Walpurgis]

It's only normal if you completely ignore, you know, history.

http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/15/missing-the-target/

So I read the article and that is basically what I said. That link would be better used on someone claiming that having a non-white character in TW3 would be unrealistic.

 

[Catvoca]

I get that you might disagree with the tweet, and be annoyed at them for even making it, but I think coming in here and just insulting their games for no reason is really lame. I'm seeing a lot of "At least The Witcher is a good game unlike your walking simulators" type comments in this thread. It's pretty immature and has no real bearing on this discussion.

 

[Teletraan1]

Complaining that the Witcher is sexist is like complaining Game of Thrones is sexist. They're based on books that try to depict medieval times ffs.

And also feature some of the most kick ass women in powerful roles that shape the entire series. But let's just forget all that because it doesn't fit an agenda.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Is The Chinese Room an actual Chinese Room? Maybe The Chinese Room is a character in Cyberpunk 2077 and we've entered a whole new level of meta-promotion.

In any case, Cyberpunk as a genre is literally about the power dynamics in a world of Nieztschean ubermenschen. In cyberpunk,"God is dead" and people can transcend a lot of traditional limits, so what does society become? Does it make society more sexist, oppressive and dystopian, or does it provide a way to create a new, better society.
The question of whether razorgirls are empowered (anti)heroines seeking their own path in a corrupt society or if they are just doomed pawns that have just accepted the sexual objectification that is forced upon them (c.f. Neuromancer's Molly, which is basically the source of the whole trope).

The game could be sexist or not. It depends on what happens to the razorgirl character. Maybe they'll go for Quiet-esque bullshit like, "She's not wearing many clothes because she has metal skin", but I have faith that CDProject will make it a lot more nuanced than that.

She's wearing what's she wearing because she came out of a night club. An has modified herself into her breaking point thus the situation. Either way shes not a huge part of the story, just the context for the story to showcase the world.

 

[fertygo]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

 

[Audioboxer]

I get that you might disagree with the tweet, and be annoyed at them for even making it, but I think coming in here and just insulting their games for no reason is really lame. I'm seeing a lot of "At least The Witcher is a good game unlike your walking simulators" type comments in this thread. It's pretty immature and has no real bearing on this discussion.

This I can agree with. Disagree with my many posts in here if you want but I'm not going after them in a childish way.

Still at the same time drive by humour should be expected. It's not really adding much constructively but people are free to use humour as they see fit (as long as it's not breaking GAF rules). Can't say I didn't have a chuckle the first time a walking simulator joke appeared, or I'd not be being honest.

 

[Chase17]

I don't really want to go one way or another without thinking about this too much, but pursuing both major relationships in the game leads to a fake out threesome that kind if bugged me. Rather then seeing an argument or something the plot line is resolved with a completely sexual situation that almost acts as "fanservice" for the player.

I mean you spend 10s of hours with these characters, and that is how their story culminates, a sex scene cut short.

Luckily that's not what happened on my playthrough though.

 

[petethepanda]

C'mon breh. You can like something and be critical of it at the same time.

I wish more people realized this.

 

[Souless Squirrel]

Ugh. This one actually makes sense in the context of the situation. That person is a person obsessed with the high life. She is a person enamored with looking and feeling good. That is what they wanted to portray and they did it well. That is kinda what the Cyberpunk 2077 world has a huge problem with people being obsessed with living other's lives and modifying themselves to get closer to that high life.

 

[QaaQer]

.

I remember reading something about the reason they didn't model a dick for Geralt was because nobody wanted to do it and they didn't want to force anybody. Come on grow up it is only a penis. That sort of thinking comes across quite a lot throughout the game, looking immature in what is generally a mature game, especially when it comes to sex within the game.

Haha...At my wife's high school, they had an art show which consisted of each chosen student getting to display 5 or 6 pieces on a tri-fold in the main foyer. One smart ass did an amazining pencil and charcoal drawing of an erect, uncut penis then mounted it and seripticiously put it up on someone's display. When notified, the male head art teacher didn't want to touch it to take it down. Penises are scary.

 

[Audioboxer]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

Why does a sex scene need to serve a purpose? This isn't high school sex education class.

It's an adult game with adult themes and last time I checked sex is simply biological and normal. No reason a game can't have sex in it, any more than violence, swearing and blood.

Not everything needs to serve a profound purpose in an entertainment medium. Some things can simply be there for humour, gratification and because the writer wanted it to be.

I'm currently watching a TV show called Banshee with ridiculous violence and non stop sex and nudity. Why? I find it entertaining and fun.

 

[Teeth]

Then people need to pick their battles. An not pick it with every single perceived notion that something, not to their liking falls into a strong buzzword box. Because again anything can be labeled racist, homophobic, anti-religious...etc but that doesn't make it a fact. When context is ignored otherwise people are judging a book by its cover.

I see we're still doing this:

There are people that think that these are big battles.

There are people that think that these small battles are just as worthy to fight as the big ones.

There are people who think that the small battles, while small individually, create a mountain of issues collectively. Attacking the mountain as a mountain will have people say "yeah, but what specific examples?" while attacking the small issues will have them say "yeah, but that's such a small problem", creating a no-win situation.

Yes, anything can be labelled anything and it's up to the viewer/developer/critic/human to determine whether they agree or disagree. Only by hearing what others have to say can we learn other perspectives. Criticizing or arguing about it can clarify the perspective and galvanize the point.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Ugh. This one actually makes sense in the context of the situation. That person is a person obsessed with the high life. She is a person enamored with looking and feeling good. That is what they wanted to portray and they did it well. That is kinda what the Cyberpunk 2077 world has a huge problem with people being obsessed with living other's lives and modifying themselves to get closer to that high life.

Its humanity/natural vs transhumanism. Can they mix and what's the breaking point, when is to much, to much.

 

[Angel_DvA]

at least they make good ones

Should have been first post ; )

 

[NoblesseOblige]

The image in the OP is an actor for a woman who has a fake body or something. In fact, I'm pretty sure she's a porn star. The idea is, in CYP2077, everyone will look like that. Shallowness is one of the game's themes.

That's not even true. Or at least, it's not in 2020, which 2077 is heavily inspired from. While yes, bodysculpting is a thing in the game, it's also not a thing everyone can afford, especially in a world after a total socio-economic collapse.

 

[Walpurgis]

Complaining that the Witcher is sexist is like complaining Game of Thrones is sexist. They're based on books that try to depict medieval times ffs.

I think some people have difficulty separating the intent of the author from the behaviour of a character. Dirty bandits talking about raping girls and stuff is not sexist media, it is sexist characters. I think TW3 had a lot of very strong female characters so I wouldn't call it sexist on that. The useless prostitutes are a better target.

 

[xevis]

Of course it is, but if it's a women who wants to do modelling and genuinely does (hasn't been forced) then no its not exploitation.

I have trouble with this argument. You can always find individuals willing to be exploited but that doesn't make it OK in general. Booth babes for instance are entirely objectified and the practice is complete bullshit despite the ladies in question giving their consent.

 

[tanooki27]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

ah, so sex should always be in service of the story. sex just for sex = amoral?

what the fuck happened

 

[Walpurgis]

That's not even true. Or at least, it's not for the source material which 2077 is heavily inspired from. While yes, bodysculpting is a thing in the game, it's also not a thing everyone can afford, especially in a world after a total socio-economic collapse.

I was speaking from memory. Scroll down past that post to see what I was trying to remember.

 

[erawsd]

Witcher 3 isnt perfect in its portrayals but I also think flatly calling it sexist is far off base. Outside of TLOU I can't really think of a recent release with as wide a cast of well written/strong female characters.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I get that you might disagree with the tweet, and be annoyed at them for even making it, but I think coming in here and just insulting their games for no reason is really lame. I'm seeing a lot of "At least The Witcher is a good game unlike your walking simulators" type comments in this thread. It's pretty immature and has no real bearing on this discussion.

That's what happens when you can't actually disagree with a claim and would rather get upset/outraged about someone saying anything possibly negative about a game/studio they like.

 

[Skeeter49]

Not everything is fucking sexist. Context is important, and with context I don't think a lot of stuff in The Witcher is sexist. Then again, it's the opinion of one person, not the studio as a whole calling out CDPR, they should be allowed to have that opinion.

There are worse abusers of putting sexists stuff in their games than CDPR. We had a point in time where we tried to ignore sexists stuff in media, and now we're at that point where everything can be seen as sexist now. Where's the middle ground where if it fits the game, it's appropriate?

 

[amdb00mer]

at least they make good ones

This comment says it all.

 

[Audioboxer]

I have trouble with this argument. You can always find individuals willing to be exploited but that doesn't make it OK in general. Booth babes for instance are entirely objectified and the practice is complete bullshit despite the ladies in question giving their consent.

I did say exploitation exists, you cropped that out. What I made was a clear differential that not everything can be painted with the same brush. Cases of exploitation have to be looked at and criticised on an individual basis, not used as the standard defacto to go and nuke anything similar (both babes are scantily dressed so any other depiction of nudity has to be a similar problem).

Not to mention even within the booth babe realm there will be genuine women who want to do it. Just the same as women who engage in specific character cosplay. Some of it is a morality argument, even alongside the exploitation argument.

 

[fertygo]

Well Game of Thrones is often got critiqued for being sexist too, I dunno why this argument used so iftenn

 

[Cabbagehead]

I have trouble with this argument. You can always find individuals willing to be exploited but that doesn't make it OK in general. Booth babes for instance are entirely objectified and the practice is complete bullshit despite the ladies in question giving their consent.

So are male strip clubs...etc the make up is all around. This a bigger issue with social and economical loop holes and civilization itself, regardless how far we've come humanity is still baser instinct prone. Unless we transcend beyond simple urges.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

Those are easy to skip by pressing a button. I do so because I don't care to see nude polygonal models going at it. Others don't care.

 

[Walpurgis]

Well Game of Thrones is often got critiqued for being sexist too, I dunno why this argument used so iftenn

Game of Thrones deserves it.

 

[DC1]

Not to mention The Chinese Room is doing the exact same thing for hits, considering there's no real loss for them in doing so. Best-case scenario, CD Projekt Red has to answer to the accusations, worst-case it stays isolated in petty squabbles like this where a bunch of dudes tell women what's empowering and what's not and why they should be happy to be paraded around half-naked.

My best advice is for CDPR to not respond.
Any salacious accusations outside of defined context is always deplorable.

Specifically addressing sexism and the definition of empowerment, please see two of the principal power brokers in the entertainment space and reconcile your position:
Beyonce and to a slightly lesser degree Taylor Swift. Both direct there path/vision while embracing their womanhood and sexuality in full display of the world while not conceding an inch dignity or self-respect. Their perspective not ours.

 

[Portugeezer]

Well Game of Thrones is often got critiqued for being sexist too, I dunno why this argument used so iftenn

And people who critique it also get shot down.

 

[KonradLaw]

The Chinese Room is just salty CDPR knows how to do gameplay

Spoiler

Yes, I'm still salty over how huge dissapoitment Machine for Pigs turned out to be.

 

[hwy_61]

at least they make good ones

I know it's probably been quoted to death but

DAYUM

 

[Phocks]

What's wrong with a little male gaze here and there?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

What's wrong with a little male gaze here and there?

The problem is that it's not just "here and there".

 

[Audioboxer]

What's wrong with a little male gaze here and there?

It's such a ridiculous term as most if not all humans biologically enjoy and engage in the checking out of the opposite or same sex.

How the fuck do you think you found your wife/husband/partner/current sexual partner? Part of it was with your eyes, but surely hopefully an even larger part through feelings and emotions.

 

[Valkyr1983]

yep.

i think quiet is a fucking badass character who inexplicably has some really fucking bullshit crap attached.

that helicoptor shit is so bad honestly.

Are you talking about when she bends over and stuff?

I mean, I can see what they were going for, not really seeing the issue since you don't have to have quiet as a sidekick.

Pick dhorse or ddog if you don't like it, I enjoyed her character in all aspects personally, my fav sidekick

 

[Monkey_Plunkett]

Their used the company twitter account to shit on another developers games so i kinda think that their own catalouge is fair game too, no?

True though I just think it's reductive to just come out and go "lol good luck with your next shit walking simulator" etc, if you disagree with their comment (which I do) explain why it's wrong rather than resorting to cheap insults

Technically, they have nothing to do with medieval times. Of course it's being used as some form of inspiration but the action takes place in a fantasy world so "medieval" doesn't really make sense.

It's still fantasy based within a medieval setting no? Certainly the sexism is part of the world building to make it seem authentic to that setting, if you don't agree though that's cool.

Since I don't really watch or care about that show: Does it often get accused of being sexist? Pretty much all I hear about it in my little bubble is that "It's the show were everybody shows their tits and get's murdered"

Yeah it got alot of crisiscism for the treatment of women in the show.

 

[fertygo]

ah, so sex should always be in service of the story. sex just for sex = amoral?

what the fuck happened

They can always imply the sex happened then

But boy we got scene of whole women body exposed for objectification. You can't not mind it hell I sure dont lol. But I can't see it can be labeled in any other way than female objectification. The sex scenes does nothing other than that.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Like what is sexist and what isn't sexist? does it have a ever changing definition, does it have leeway. People use the word for almost anything that it starts to lose weight.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

Because the scenes fit the context of the game and the female characters are otherwise well written?

Reducing them to just "sex scenes" is just dishonest. There is a world of difference between GOW3 "press X to hump" and this.

 

[Ludens]

Umh, I think The Chinese Room never played Witcher 3 or Witcher games.
Because in all games there are very strong female characters, like Yen and other witches. They are even more important in the books, since witches play a major role behind politics and so on.
Are those female characters sexy? Yes they are, but it's also explained in the books, since they use magic for cosmetic purpose mantaining their bodies always young and beautiful, and also they often use sex to reach their goals.

I'm not saying there's no fan-service in Witcher games, yes there is, but often is in context with what happens on the screen and with the character of Geralt.
I mean, in the books Geralt is "used" by female characters to have sex because, well, he is sterile, but both females and males character like having sex here.

I can say Witcher games are sex-focused but not sexist, because sex here is a thing taken directly from the universe Sapkowski created. You can like it or not, but it's an important thing. Also, exaclty like in GTAIV, you can play the whole Witcher 3 without actually see a sex scene excluding the one directly in the intro, so...

 

[Audioboxer]

Like what is sexist and what isn't sexist? does it have a ever changing definition, does it have leeway. People use the word for almost anything that it starts to lose weight.

In my opinion putting an opposite sex down, saying one or the other is superior, denying jobs or equal rights, and yes when it is proven and genuine, exploitation of a human being via gender or sex.

Simply engaging with and enjoying sex and nudity does not make someone sexist. Even if said nudity or sex is just blunt. Ever just wanted to have sex with your partner or masturbate for no real reason? Welcome to being human and enjoying sexual entertainment. It's normal. Repress that and enjoy a world of hurt psychologically.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I was speaking from memory. Scroll down past that post to see what I was trying to remember.

I don't know which post you're referring to. Is it the one with a quote from IGN? I'm just stating that, at least by the source material, the world of Cyberpunk 20xx is not one full of beauty. I hope CDPR understands this and doesn't put only supermodels into the game. If they do then they're massively hypocritical as they've used the 'source material' excuse in the past to absolve blame for a lack of diversity.

As a reference this is what 2020's bodysculpting bit is. Note the "you're either really ugly or very good-looking".

 

[Ridley327]

I wonder what TCR is hoping to gain here. The debate on sexism in games has been one of the more hotly contested ones for a while now, already involving CDPR at that, and TCR isn't contributing anything of value with what comes off as a drive-by comment.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well they're not wrong I'm surprised people taking side of CDPR. They making games with decent amount of sex scene that serve no purpose other than male gaze.

Having sex in a game does not make it sexist.

 

[Cabbagehead]

In my opinion putting an opposite sex down, saying one or the other is superior, denying jobs or equal rights, and yes when it is proven and genuine, exploitation of a human being via gender or sex.

Is that happening here in the fullest of that general outline? or is the representation not to certain people's liking because it portrays the notion of woman as sexual objects. Even though that's not what the game is saying within the world itself past that image and past that moment in the trailer. Like sometimes people never take things beyond face value and build their case on first impressions alone and they just stop right at that moment ignoring everything else.

 

[synce]

Chinese Room just seems desperate for attention. Nothing wrong with that image