Pretty much. Media is going to cover Clinton v. Trump especially when it gets going in earnest, no reason for Hillary to waste more time engaging with Bernie. She's also being smart by not trying to force him to drop from the race, she knows he has no shot so doesn't make sense to make further bad blood with his supporters. When it's all said and done, a vast majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Clinton against Trump come the fall.
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NPR: Bernie Sanders staying in the race 'Until The Last Vote Is Cast'
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Pretty much. Media is going to cover Clinton v. Trump especially when it gets going in earnest, no reason for Hillary to waste more time engaging with Bernie. She's also being smart by not trying to force him to drop from the race, she knows he has no shot so doesn't make sense to make further bad blood with his supporters. When it's all said and done, a vast majority of Bernie supporters will vote for Clinton against Trump come the fall.
Atomic Playboy
Member
Honestly? Yes. Revolution is inspired by things getting so overwhelmingly shitty for huge swaths of people that they decide "we cannot let this continue." Revolution doesn't happen when things are basically comfortable for most people. Is income inequality a problem that needs addressing? Absolutely. Do we need to do a better job making sure people have access to the resources that will help them become self-sufficient? Absolutely. Do we need better mechanisms in place to prevent giant corporations from privatizing gains and socializing losses? Absolutely. But as long as people are employed and aren't starving in the streets or dying in wars on foreign soil, there's going to be a lot of complacency. Life's actually going pretty well for me right now; I don't want to burn everything down in the name of revolution. And, bonus, Hillary actually supports every one of those positions (just in a less "revolutionary" way). This idea that we need a complete disruption of our entire way of life to improve things rings hollow for people who are doing OK in the current society; that's why Bernie is losing the primary.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I just wanted to say I appreciate you following up.
I can see where you got the idea, but it's a bit of a stretch. I don't think either of us will change our mind on this.
BlastProcessing
Member
I think political change is like weight loss. The right way to do it is generally disciplined and boring. If you go for quick fixes they rarely stick.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
I know, I know. I wish Hillary would have thought of that before Libya, too
Thaedolus
Gold Member
The fuck is this supposed to mean?
Bernie right now
when that c3p0 mix tape coming out
BlastProcessing
Member
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
I get it. War is a joke. Funny stuff.
You should ask the guy implying that a US presidential candidate is advocating violent overthrow of the government, I think? I don't fucking get it either
You should ask the guy implying that a US presidential candidate is advocating violent overthrow of the government, I think? I don't fucking get it either
RustyNails
Member
Cost of inaction in Libya would have resulted in another Syria: dogged dictator holding on to power by slaughtering and barrel bombing everyone including hospitals, mosques and schools. Or worse, another Rwanda. It was a joint UN-NATO effort with OIC on board, and France leading many of the missions. Whatever Libya is today (and its inching towards stability after eastern government gave up power), its better off than Syria.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
And do you see "stability" or peace coming to the Mid East with the path US policy is on now? The level of discussion or empathy people show when it comes to the most important possible aspect of politics, the decisions made on whether or not to go to war, are my "single issue" when it comes to voting.
I feel like I've been watching the entire country go fucking insane since 9-11, with no end in sight.
Ogrekiller
Member
It is, that's why Bernie laughs whenever Hillary talks about gun control.
BlastProcessing
Member
What level of interaction should the US have had with Libya?
RustyNails
Member
I have actually lived in middle east and know first hand how US policies affect the region. But there is a clear difference between conducting operations to overthrow a government with falsified evidence (Iraq war) and answering the call of Just Cause as defined in UN charter (Libya). Remember Benghazi was surrounded by Col. Gaddafi's army and we were looking at a massacre of unprecendent proportions, with Gaddafi using the disturbing genocidal language (we will hunt down the "rats" and "cockroaches"). Obama was not ready to wait and find out how. Hillary and Biden weren't either.
Thats in stark opposition to Bush's invasion of Iraq under false pretenses about WMDs.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
I advocate for a non-interventionist policy, with use of the military as a last resort. More war will not bring peace to the region.
I think you know that it's unfair to expect anyone to be able to answer a "so what would you do if you were President" question without trying to write a book-length response.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
and hasn't Libya continued to descend into even more chaos and civil war since? Look, I hope you are right. We both want the same thing: less war (peace would probably be naive to hope for at this point). But I am pretty skeptical of US foreign policy at this point.
RustyNails
Member
It's been a bad outcome, but if you follow the recent updates, one of the rival governments gave up power and recognized the UN backed government. There is one more rival government remaining, and ISIS is trying to gain ground.
I dislike US foreign policy as well especially when it comes to Israel and drone strikes. Also Bernie's mentioning of US overthrowing Iranian president Mossadegh in 1953 was manna from heaven. More people ahould learn about it. But when it comes to Libya there was no easy answer. Either watch the country burn (like Syria is now) or do something about it.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
Like I said, I truly hope you are right in the Libya intervention being for the best in the long run.
To bring it back to the original point of this topic, this is exactly why I can't interpret the people saying things like "Bernie is just an angry old man, shut up and go away" as anything other than Grade-A horseshit. No other candidate is even trying to talk about things like this, to my knowledge (who knows what the 3rd party candidates talk about, because they don't exactly get much screen-time). Americans really need to ask more from our politicians, especially on foreign policy, and Hillary obviously being the democratic nominee come November is irrelevant to that discussion.
(I'm a little aggravated, if it's not apparent. Don't take any of it personally)
To bring it back to the original point of this topic, this is exactly why I can't interpret the people saying things like "Bernie is just an angry old man, shut up and go away" as anything other than Grade-A horseshit. No other candidate is even trying to talk about things like this, to my knowledge (who knows what the 3rd party candidates talk about, because they don't exactly get much screen-time). Americans really need to ask more from our politicians, especially on foreign policy, and Hillary obviously being the democratic nominee come November is irrelevant to that discussion.
(I'm a little aggravated, if it's not apparent. Don't take any of it personally)
BlastProcessing
Member
You are the one who dropped the Libya non-sequitur in the thread. While I don't expect a book-length response, I would like to see you provide something of substance to justify that. It's a complex subject and it doesn't help anyone to be reductive about it.
The politics in North Africa are not identical to those in the Middle East.
It's probably best for both of us to drop it, it's not what this thread is about at all. I'll let you have the last word and be done with it.
benjipwns
Banned
We should try at least another sixteen. To make really sure it doesn't work. It's called political science for a reason.
Is this a joke? Condescension, pandering, extreme flip-flopping, terrible judgement on war, support for terrible trade agreements, inane stance on encryption, hypocritical stance on campaign finance and big corporations, weak stance on climate change, etc.
titiklabingapat
Member
It's been 48 hours and no one is talking about Bernie anymore. Everyone is now in general election mode.
The Daily Show was discussing him, but it was to make actual criticisms of his policies, his decision to stay in despite being mathematically eliminated if relying on pledged delegates specifically (and insisting that there will be a contested convention), as well as draw attention to his support of the F-35 program (said support driven by the fact that they're manufactured in his home state, apparently). It was softened by jokes from the correspondents about being terrified of angering Bernie supporters, though, along with a guest spot from Susan Sarandon.
Fenderputty
Banned
Yup. It's glorious. He can talk to himself until the convention.
He's about to have a 20+ point on Tuesday so expect an avalanche of 'Sanders momentum' and 'Dems in disarray' stories.
The New Deal and The Reagan Revolution both say hi.
Revolutions, depending on how loosely or strictly you define them, are not a one size fits all thing. Most major shifts happen in between those two extremes you all speak of. Though Blast's is clearly more common. Though I would not really call a slow, gradual process of change a revolution. The very definition of the word goes against labeling something like that as a revolution.
I mean it almost comes across like actual liberals actively hate a large and very important part of their movement. Whether Sanders's strategy for change is ideal(I tend to think it isnt though he does have some good ideas about motivating voters in midterms I would like to see tested) what Sanders has done has been a boom for the liberal movement in America. It has taken what was a highly stigmatized and barely progressing(if not still regressing) platform of modern socialism that most Democrats are striving for at the core of their rhetoric and policies and managed to turn it from something Democrats had to tip toe around at all levels of discourse and catapulted it from fringe to practically mainstream. That is a huge thing going forward when it comes to forwarding major pillars of the liberal platform and selling it to voters.
And it couldn't of happened at a better time with the cracks and crumbling to the Republican party and long held Reagan era tenants.
Beer Monkey
Member
Except it's the white privileged liberals that are "doing OK" that give Bernie his votes.
benjipwns
Banned
See, also: The entire global history of "politically left" parties/movements.
No lies detected.
excelsiorlef
Member
I've already proven this to be false though.
I mean unless significantly increasing political activity is defined as attending a rally, tweeting a lot but then staying home when it's voting time.
Clinton's numbers are pretty similar to her's and Obama's numbers during the record breaking 08 primary whereas Sanders number while good enough to win many prior primaries (other than 08 naturally) will finish far behind where Clinton did in 08.
Sanders will finish strong for a runner up for sure but.if anything he is riding the Obama/Clinton revolution of 2008 which actually did increase the level of political activity. Factually speaking his numbers actually indicate a decrease in political activity in terms of the 2nd place candidate.
Top 3 Popular vote getters in Democratic Primary history will be as of 2016:
1. Obama 08
2. Clinton 08
3. Clinton 2016
This idea that Sanders inspires political action and Clinton does not is bunk. She's going to score the third highest vote count of all time in a Democratic Primary, largely thanks to the strong political ground work she and Obama laid in 2008.
nelsonroyale
Member
Might as well keep some credibility in there until the end. Hillary doesn't have it in terms of being a social and economic progressive.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Not that it matters, but the national polling gap is widening again.
Elaugaufein
Member
Its not very surprising if you break down the actual makeup of those movements. There's no actual social or economic lynchpin for the left as a whole , just a series of issues that overlap to connect subgroups into something that looks like a movement. A 1960s style Catholic Union member is likely at least passively opposed to LGBTQ+ rights and probably has a far less driven approach to women's and minority racial rights than members of those groups. Likewise a lot of minority racial groups are statistically religious and members of religions that sre probabley not greatly supportive of LGBTQ+ rights as a result. And there's the Authoritarian divide that doesn't map to the Left or Right as neatly as people pretend (the left are historically less authoritarians because losing not because of an inherent property of the group). Its probably not particularly hard to find two leftists who agree on ~nothing.
shinra-bansho
Member
I don't think "most Democrats" are striving for modern "socialism". Not even Berniecrats, regardless of whether they say they want it.
Tranqueris
Banned
I think there's a few reasons for that but there are two or three that stand out for me.
The fact that people have bought into this idea where Bernie is now the last true progressive left in America and has more integrity and purity than anyone else in Washington, except of course for that time when he promised political favors to the NRA in exchange for their support during an election.
The fact that Bernie has kept infecting his supporters with his persecution complex by telling them that everyone is against them, that the establishment don't want them to win, to the point where people now believe that everything is the fault of the establishment which is now made up of all people who don't support Bernie Sanders. Which sort of fuses together with the first reason. "Why wouldn't anyone want to vote for Bernie?! He's the true progressive and the last real hope for this country, clearly this must be the fault of The Establishment/Hillary, they must be defrauding him somehow."
And finally, the fact that Bernie keeps implying that Hillary is totally corrupt and used to imply that she was not a real progressive (haven't heard him use this one in a while) which helps further demonize her. It's also a tactic that he's used before in other elections. Unfortunately for Bernie he's not running for President of only Vermont and the millions of people who voted for Hillary instead of him aren't buying it.
Now all that being said, when I talk about hatred for Hillary among Bernie supporters, I'm not talking about people who criticize Hillary Clinton or flat out disagree with her completely on things. I'm talking about people who say things like..
"Look at this Breitbart link, of course Hillary would do this thing!" Which of course turns out to be right wing propaganda.
"She lies! She always lies, look at her, she's even lying now! She's just horrible."
And of course.. "She's worse than Trump!"
Bernie right now
While amusingly true if the FBI really did go after Clinton she's done for. They aren't going to waste their time unless they had a bullet proof case. Going after the presumptive President and losing would be career suicide.
What is OK by your definition? Bernie voters on average have less income than Clinton, Trump or Cruz voters. Kaisich voters are far above any of them.
Did someone namedrop Libya while I wasn't looking?
Seriously after all the shit you've given Clinton about it you better not go blame the Europeans for that when it's convenient.
Actually lower income (<30k) tend to skew Clinton, maybe Sanders is so bad with >100k that the average end up being higher than the average for Sanders.
Unless you have a way to explain how <30k people are really living the life compared to the 30k> while being <50k...
Seriously after all the shit you've given Clinton about it you better not go blame the Europeans for that when it's convenient.
Actually lower income (<30k) tend to skew Clinton, maybe Sanders is so bad with >100k that the average end up being higher than the average for Sanders.
Unless you have a way to explain how <30k people are really living the life compared to the 30k> while being <50k...
Jorok Goldblade
Member
I'm calling it now. The conclusion of this investigation is going to be "lol boomers and the internet." They'll come up with a list of recommended improvements to government data security, but they're not going to find anything criminal.
Do we really need to go over this again? Clinton wins the poorest of voters ( less than $30k), Bernie does well with those a step up from there ($30-$50k), and Clinton tends to win the rest.
A not insignificant number of Bernie supporters have bought into this notion that Hillary is this caricature of a person and will latch onto any negativity of their opponent. That Bernie is the only logical choice in the end and supporters of the other person refuse to see reality.
A not insignificant number of Hillary supporters have bought into this notion of Sanders as this caricature of a person and will latch onto any negativity of their opponent. That Hillary is the only logical choice in the end and supporters of the other person refuse to see reality.
That basically describes every election ever. Posts like this though, that attempt to frame these charges as exclusive to one side, only come about when a person on one side fails to recognize their side is just as guilty as the other in their own way.
Netherscourge
Banned
Now they are talking about Hillary's most trusted aides being interviewed by the FBI over her possible Email misuse.
gutter_trash
Banned
at this point late in the season, I think Obama is right and let the rest of "few primaries left" to play out and just let as many people vote then take it from there
Aaron Strife
Banned
While acknowledging that they haven't found anything incriminating and it's probably nothing.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Good, that means the whole thing will be wrapped up in the next couple weeks.
Your last reason is exactly why Bernie has lost traction with the people that hadn't supported him. At some point, I was ok with either him or Hillary taking the nomination. But his dirty tactics in what was supposed to be antiestablishment politics, soured me on him, as well as others I know. Of course, the fact that his plans are complete fantasies in light of the current political climate/system doesn't help either.
To stay on topic, I don't mind at all Bernie staying in on the race. But I still object to him baseless rhetoric against Clinton.
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