Support NeoGAF

[Rand0m TAG]

Women like us just should be happy with being non-playable characters who exist only to serve the playable male protagonist in his character development/power fantasy quest. Right?

this has nothing to do with that,
should protests be made that Lara Croft is female?

if this was for gta v, then it would make more sense as the characters were new to the series. Link has been a dude since the beginning. Should Mario be recast as Maria?

why no protest against uncharted?

 

[Not]

Because there aren't enough boobied (read: female) adventurers in games. And more representation in games where it makes sense is always a plus? Having a choice in playing a guy or a gal would have calmed all problems (most likely).

You misunderstood me.

 

[Giever]

I think it's unreasonable to be upset with Nintendo for not including a gender option in their latest Legend of Zelda title when almost all of their other recently published titles either have gender selection, playable female characters, or inhuman characters of which the gender is either ambiguous, or completely invisible (Kirby, Yoshi, Chibi-Robo, etc.).

It does make sense to be disappointed if it's something you would like to see, but not every game has to cater to every specific person's wish and if Nintendo wants Link to remain specifically male then I'd say that's a non-issue considering how open they are with their other games.

 

[abstract alien]

Good. There is no need to drive this whole agenda down the throat of a company that has been in support of it even before it became a trendy topic.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Sure, tons next to another 100x more tons of games with male leads. Not to mention even in games with female leads we still have to deal with random sexual objectification and all sorts of other annoying tropes.

But we should just be happy with our crumbs, shouldn't we?

just play horizon, it's the new zelda anyway.

dogs? Try robot dinosaurs.
Deer? Try...robot...deer

Horizon:breathe on the cartridge

edit:
i'm getting too sarcastic, i should stop. Its just this thread....

 

[bon]

Okay.

 

[Henkka]

I don't know if you mean Nintendo developed, or published, but I'll just list a bunch of recent "Nintendo" games with playable female characters. The ones with a (?) are just Nintendo published (in NA, at least):

• Splatoon
• Pokemon X & Y
• Pokemon Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
• Animal Crossing: New Leaf
• Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival
• Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer
• Fire Emblem Awakening
• Fire Emblem Fates
• Super Mario 3D World
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• Xenoblade Chronicles X
• Style Savvy: Trendsetters
• Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (debatable since you have to play multiplayer to play as Dixie specifically, rather than sort of half-play-as-her.)
• Code Name: S.T.E.A.M.
• Pikmin 3
• Mario Kart 7
• Mario Kart 8
• Mario Golf: World Tour
• Mario Tennis Open
• Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
• Mario Party: Island Tour
• Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water
• Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U(?)
• Hyrule Warriors(?)
• Fantasy Life(?)
• Yo-Kai Watch(?)
• Fossil Fighters: Frontier(?)
• Bravely Default(?)
• Bayonetta 2(?)
• The Wonderful 101(?)
• Disney Magical World(?)
• Puzzle & Dragons Z + Super Mario Bros. Edition(?)
• Any game with Miis

I omitted games with ambiguous characters, like Kirby and Yoshi.

Also, I left question marks off of some of the Camelot Mario sports titles, as they are ostensibly 'Nintendo' titles, even if not developed in-house. For no good reason, I left question marks on for Hyrule Warriors and Smash Bros. (mainly because they're in more unique predicaments than the Camelot Mario titles).

Thanks for compiling this.

Too bad it was seemingly ignored by the poster who requested it, truly a paragon of intellectual honesty and owning up to being even a little wrong.

 

[horkrux]

Link never romances anyone, not even Zelda.

Link never talks.

Good reasons to make an optional female lead without having to change all that much. It would have been cute.

 

[stufte]

Sure, tons next to another 100x more tons of games with male leads. Not to mention even in games with female leads we still have to deal with random sexual objectification and all sorts of other annoying tropes.

But we should just be happy with our crumbs, shouldn't we?

Yah ok. Distilling down some of the industries most iconic female characters as "crumbs". Pretty sure you're trolling.

 

[Metroidvania]

Actually discussing what games have female leads is trying to derail now, eh? Any interest in talking about this or did I just walk into a pitchfork and gasoline thread?

Yes, it does partially undermine the context of the point being made. Most Final Fantasy games, spin-off or otherwise, have either had female leads or female co-leads in like the last decade. I only brought it up because the poster specifically brought up Final Fantasy when mentioning the "lead" male leads have (which still absolutely exists).

Final Fantasy was brought up as one example of the historical context of the inequality in male vs female leads. Co-leads is one thing, sure, but the spotlight figure, as such, has still historically been a guy.

The point wasn't the Final Fantasy games are sexist, it was that the gap exists. I didn't see your reply as necessarily giving any context outside of your individual choice of rebuttal. Apologies if that came off 'pitchforky'.

 

[Hellion]

Now this is a meltdown thread? ... For people who hate more options.

 

[Razzorn34]

In that case it's not super disrespectful. :v

The issue is that if you are bringing it up because you seriously want Link to have a race option (I've gone on record as saying that I would be fine with it in past threads), then that's fine. But introducing it in order to produce a "gotcha!" against those who want a gender option I think is kind of poor form.

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I'm using it that an example of how nonsensical it sounds to suddenly change a character just for the sake of change. Having your next game suddenly be Link as a white woman makes as much sense as him suddenly being a black male.

I definitely want more minority representation as much as I want more female leads in videogames. That said, I still don't agree with suddenly changing Link to something he isn't. I'd much rather have new characters made from the ground up than a skin swap of a established icon.

 

[BassForever]

Link never romances anyone, not even Zelda.

Link never talks.

Good reasons to make an optional female lead without having to change all that much. It would have been cute.

Did you not play Zelda 2? Or Skyward Sword?

 

[LordOcidax]

Great.

 

[Ktg1973]

I have spent more than 30 years as gamer. I've played as a men, women, dragon, puppets,all sort of animals and fantasy creatures.

Seriously, you are sick people, like Chris Plante, a moron who see sexism everywhere.

Sick people.

 

[Zubz]

wy isnt kratos a girl? i demand answers!

Kratos is the clear protagonist of his games. The events of God of War only happen due to Kratos' involvement in the narrative.

Link is the protagonist of his games, but primarily serves as a faceless avatar for the player that people happened to project a personality onto after decades. The events of the Legend of Zelda would still mostly take place without Link; he's just some dude that shows up and the story happens around him.

Plus, again, even when we look at Link as a character, there are many different Links, and they're all the same blonde Hylian man. I think it's fine if they give you the option to make Link a blonde Hylaian woman instead. Just slap a sword on her and there's literally no difference.

 

[HeelPower]

All that needs to happen is a character swap.

Link barely has any back story or character to him anyway.

It would be just like the Souls series ,but nooo this is Nintendo.

 

[Tasha2k2]

I have spent more than 30 years as gamer. I've played as a men, women, dragon, puppets,all sort of animals and fantasy creatures.

Seriously, you are sick people, like Chris Plante, a moron who see sexism everywhere.

Sick people.

Let me guess, you're a man?

 

[lightskintwin]

You realize if there was an option for a female Link, he'd still be male which is why it's a poor option.

 

[Plywood]

In that case it's not super disrespectful. :v

The issue is that if you are bringing it up because you seriously want Link to have a race option (I've gone on record as saying that I would be fine with it in past threads), then that's fine. But introducing it in order to produce a "gotcha!" against those who want a gender option I think is kind of poor form.

There is nothing "gotcha" about it, it rarely if ever comes up in the discussion. The only thing that ever constantly comes up is just the plain desire for a female option without other customization options which in itself has its own implications.

 

[GOOCHY]

. I think it's fine if they give you the option to make Link a blonde Hylaian woman instead. Just slap a sword on her and there's literally no difference.

Except that's not Link - that's someone else that is female.

 

[Taruranto]

Also, can I

Really quick

Can I just bring this up since people keep bringing Samus up?

Why can Federation Forces star a bunch of randos, but Zelda cannot star the second most important character?

?

I'm pretty sure most people in this thread would be happy with a playable Zelda. (Though, a spin-off would make more sense, since it would allows them to 1) focus entirely on Zelda character 2) bring in a different kind of gameplay that a character like Zelda could bring)

 

[Cindro]

I am genuinely dumbfounded by some of these responses. It must be a real miserable existence to go around thinking every single piece of entertainment that doesn't feature a minority main character is some sort of sexist/racist/homophobic/regressive conspiracy used to put down or exclude those groups.

This whole SERIES is predicated on the "knight saves the princess" trope. Nintendo isn't some sexist boogeyman for not changing that theme in Breath of the Wild. If they want to do it in a future game? Great! If they don't want to do it in a future game? Also great! To make these outlandish conclusions about Nintendo being anti-woman because Link is a dude is patently insane.

 

[decoyplatypus]

Many of you think that sex is one of Link's defining characteristics, that he just is male, and so a female Link would be a different character. I find that position a little strange, but I can see you all come by it sincerely. If Link is essentially male for you, fine. But can you at least try to see that for other people sex is no more essential to Link than hair color is to James Bond (if you remember that controversy). For some of us, a female Link would still be recognizably Link -- the same character (if a different physical person), no different from going from WW Link to TP Link.

 

[Sacul64GC]

Now this is a meltdown thread? ... For people who hate more options.

Its more like people that see link as an established character are being treated like there is something wrong with us. I was never oposed to female link but i am opposed to the way users that see Link as a character in these "Discussions" are attacked.

 

[Alex Stroud]

Thanks for compiling this.

Too bad it was seemingly ignored by the poster who requested it, truly a paragon of intellectual honesty and owning up to being even a little wrong.

Too busy moving goalposts and claiming FF XIII's spinoffs didn't count as adequate representation of female characters. Because they're spinoffs.

 

[platakul]

The only problem I can see with making Link a girl is that it would kind of disrupt the perverse sexual attraction that Link has felt for Ganon since the Adventure of Link where Link had to fight his own "dark half" to prevent his lover from returning.

A female Link in near constant quest of the "master" phallic symbol to plunge into her lover would have less impact.

 

[DangerMouse]

But he already said he was male back in 2014 after the initial reveal.. How long are yall going to play dumb about this?

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3...nfirms-the-hero-is-link-is-male/1100-6420451/

The problem with that is that it's all about expectations, he said that hours later after trolling. And read the rest of the response.
And if he didn't want people to think too much about "the player character" then maybe he shouldn't have trolled in his first response with a "wink" that "maybe it's not Link" if you're not ready for the outcome.

Sony would have gotten mauled had Skylanders been the only thing Crash they announced after Layden wore that Crash shirt fanning the flames of people wanting Crash back for trolling, whether or not the remasters (and rumored new game) end up shitty. We all know the pitchforks were ready to be out and rightfully so.

 

[Red Liquorice]

So if their excuse is that they could just have Zelda as a playable character, why not do that, she is the titular character after all.

 

[Quonny]

These comparisons are weird. Link is a reincarnated hero. There is nothing that says Link has to be male.

Link isn't some set-in-stone hero in some set universe. One game he's on an island, next he's in a village, next he's in another village with totally new people, and so on. Some games he's a kid, next he's an adult.

That argument is frankly a little ridiculous.

If they came out and said "because of the way armor is done in this game, the resources required to make new armor textures and such would be too much work" or "this is something we are considering, but unfortunately for this game we did not have the resources or time to implement such a feature. If we do it, we want to do it right" then it's whatever. But this whole "what would link do" is so stupid I can't even fathom what they were thinking with that answer.

 

[shangolin]

I am making the point that SE does a really poor job of balanced representation. Even if we account for the side games, FFXIII-2 had a male and female lead. It is not exactly a balanced situation when the only all-girl game was a continuation of FFX (which would inherently limit its appeal and sales potential).

So you're saying SE did a "really poor job" because their all female game was a sequel to a story, but their all male game is a new story. And that because it's a sequel, it has "inherently" less appeal and sales potential. And you already looked up the sales numbers, and saw that FF X-2 sold around 5.58 million, and FF XII sold around 5.95, before making this argument right?

So this 400,000 copy sales gap is what qualifies Square Enix as doing a "really poor job" with it's female representation?

 

[theangrypirate]

Let me guess, you're a man?

Good lord why does that matter. ITT: males opinions don't count.

 

[IronicSonic]

This fucking place sometimes... Nintendo never promised or even hinted that this was going to happen. You just wanted it to happen.

The Aounuma answer was so bad though. It's worth to complain at

Exactly. How about a black lesbian? If not Nintendo is racist and homophobic.

The point still stands. Why Link (and Zelda) are always blonde/white characters? Why Link (male) is always the "active" or "interactive" part of the series and Zelda the passive one?

Reincarnation theories works with other races and gender too!

 

[Voysa Reezun]

Not a gamebreaker, but it would have been kinda cool. I like playing as a woman sometimes to break up the norm.

 

[Twiforce]

I am genuinely dumbfounded by some of these responses. It must be a real miserable existence to go around thinking every single piece of entertainment that doesn't feature a minority main character is some sort of sexist/racist/homophobic/regressive conspiracy used to put down or exclude those groups.

This whole SERIES is predicated on the "knight saves the princess" trope. Nintendo isn't some sexist boogeyman for not changing that theme in Breath of the Wild. If they want to do it in a future game? Great! If they don't want to do it in a future game? Also great! To make these outlandish conclusions about Nintendo being anti-woman because Link is a dude is patently insane.

What if I told you the overuse of the "knight saves the princess" trope is sexist? Wouldn't that just blow your mind?

 

[blankempathy]

Kratos is a reboot in the newest game and I had no idea Mario games had any continuity

Didn't you know that Bowser's punishment for trying to take over the galaxy was to become Mario's figure skating partner?

My bad, when you said the word "personality" I thought you meant "personality" instead of "other thing."

I don't want people making Zelda games if they can't make "non-playable major character Link w/ voice acting" into a good character. I'd rather have good game designers.



In spin-off games. Now FF is a game with literally no playable female characters.

Like I said. I'm sure they could do it if they wanted to. Do you think its some kind of coincidence that Link has been silent all these years? Or maybe its a design choice? Not just for the games but for their mascot?

 

[Spy]

I am genuinely dumbfounded by some of these responses. It must be a real miserable existence to go around thinking every single piece of entertainment that doesn't feature a minority main character is some sort of sexist/racist/homophobic/regressive conspiracy used to put down or exclude those groups.

This whole SERIES is predicated on the "knight saves the princess" trope. Nintendo isn't some sexist boogeyman for not changing that theme in Breath of the Wild. If they want to do it in a future game? Great! If they don't want to do it in a future game? Also great! To make these outlandish conclusions about Nintendo being anti-woman because Link is a dude is patently insane.

Completely agree. Outrage culture.

 

[DuffDry]

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I'm using it that an example of how nonsensical it sounds to suddenly change a character just for the sake of change. Having your next game suddenly be Link as a white woman makes as much sense as him suddenly being a black male.

I definitely want more minority representation as much as I want more female leads in videogames. That said, I still don't agree with suddenly changing Link to something he isn't. I'd much rather have new characters made from the ground up than a skin swap of a established icon.

That's the thing though. Link isn't much of anything. He is not a character in the sense that he has any definable features, characteristics, or personality outside of his clothes, which Nintendo have made obvious that they are fully comfortable with separating him from.

Link is (arguably) an empty vessel for the player and is a pretty iconic representation of that archetype. By allowing the player to actually influence Link's gender (and yes, his race as well) allows that representation to be further realized. Changing these things does not warp or dismantle Link as a character because it can be argued that he is barely a character to begin with. Nintendo is by no means obligated to make these changes, but it's indeed a bummer to see them so emphatically want to step back from the tropes of the series and reexamine the franchise on multiple levels and have an extremely poor justification for choosing not to take this route.

This is simply my take on things.

 

[Duelist]

The people clamouring for a female Link are still subscribing to the notion that gender is binary.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

The problem with that is that it's all about expectations, he said that hours later after trolling. And read the rest of the response.
And if he didn't want people to think too much about "the player character" then maybe he shouldn't have trolled in his first response with a "wink" that "maybe it's not Link" if you're not ready for the outcome.

Sony would have gotten malled had Skylanders been the only thing Crash they announced after Layden wore that Crash shirt fanning the flames of people wanting Crash back for trolling, whether or not the remasters (and rumored new game) end up shitty. We all know the pitchforks were ready to be out.

There really is no problem. People should learn to take it and leave it. Too many "fans" fantasize on what developers should do to appease them. Thats not how it work.. you play what the creators make.. not what you want or would make. This game wasnt no kickstarter.

 

[Yogg]

What next ? Female Kratos ? Nathan Drake ? Snake ? Crash Bandicoot ? Chris Redfield ?

Not having a gender option for a character well-known for 30 years is not sexist. Forcing a gender option on a 30 years famous male character is.

 

[Tasha2k2]

Good lord why does that matter. ITT: males opinions don't count.

More like men can't see sexism because it barely ever happens to them.

 

[stufte]

More like men can't see sexism because it barely ever happens to them.

LOL, you know that a GIANT portion of the people in this thread and others complaining about sexism are men, right?

 

[Razzorn34]

That's the thing though. Link isn't much of anything. He is not a character in the sense that he has any definable features, characteristics, or personality outside of his clothes, which Nintendo have made obvious that they are fully comfortable with separating him from.

Link is (arguably) an empty vessel for the player and is a pretty iconic representation of that archetype. By allowing the player to actually influence Link's gender (and yes, his race as well) allows that representation to be further realized. Changing these things does not warp or dismantle Link as a character because it can be argued that he is barely a character to begin with. Nintendo is by no means forced to make these changes, but it's indeed a bummer to see them so emphatically want to step back from the tropes of the series and re-examine the franchise on multiple levels and have an extremely poor justification for choosing not to take this route.

This is simply my take on things.

If Nintendo ends up giving in, I hope they make her a black female so then we can have more threads about how people can't identify with her.

 

[Tasha2k2]

What next ? Female Kratos ? Nathan Drake ? Snake ? Crash Bandicoot ? Chris Redfield ?

Not having a gender option for a character well-known for 30 years is not sexist. Forcing a gender option on a 30 years famous male character is.

Wow it's almost like all of those characters are themselves and not reincarnations of past heroes. Weird.

 

[Twiforce]

Yah ok. Distilling down some of the industries most iconic female characters as "crumbs". Pretty sure you're trolling.

Super unhappy and upset with the status of women in video games = trolling. How dare I not relate to Lara Croft and whatever apparently *huge roster* of female characters exist according to you. If I'm unhappy with the amount and type of female characters in this industry, I must be trolling.

I'm done talking about this with you if you won't even honestly engage my points.

 

[StrangeTaco]

The reasoning with Link not having anything to do is hilarious. I mean really is he going to just pout around while Zelda does everything?

In all seriousness though I'd much rather see Zelda or a new female character be the lead versus making Link female. It'd bring something new to the table without changing an already established character. Otherwise it'd be the same as taking another keystone character and changing their gender, and I don't see many people asking for a female Mario.

 

[jmizzal]

Not a well-reasoned answer at all.

Why do they need a reason to why that dont have playable female character in Zelda and game that never had another playable character outside of Link?

Only in certain situations in other games

 

[rex]

I don't know why people keep pinning their hopes for a female Link on the storyline. Reincarnation is a conceit that Nintendo came up with to explain why Link keeps appearing in Zelda games.

The storyline is totally irrelevant. In the real world Link is an enduring videogame icon, a beloved character, and a valuable Nintendo mascot.

The storyline exists, from all appearances, as a practical matter to serve him.

Link comes first, story comes second. That's been Nintendo's approach all along and there's no indication it's going to change.

 

[BassForever]

Kratos is the clear protagonist of his games. The events of God of War only happen due to Kratos' involvement in the narrative.

Link is the protagonist of his games, but primarily serves as a faceless avatar for the player that people happened to project a personality onto after decades. The events of the Legend of Zelda would still mostly take place without Link; he's just some dude that shows up and the story happens around him.

Plus, again, even when we look at Link as a character, there are many different Links, and they're all the same blonde Hylian man. I think it's fine if they give you the option to make Link a blonde Hylaian woman instead. Just slap a sword on her and there's literally no difference.

Do people just have terrible memories? Wind Waker Link had a ton of personality, so did Skyward Sword Link. Majora's Mask Link was entirely motivated to find Navi after she left at the end of Ocarina of Time. Twilight Princess Link had relationships with the entire Ouran villagers before the events of that game begin.

Link's always had a character in every game in the series outside of the NES titles. Simply switching out male link for a female link would change story elements of many Zelda games and that same is probably true of the upcoming BotW. Should the LoZ series have a female lead be it Zelda or a new character like Linkle in one game? Sure that would be cool, but lets not forget up until this point the series has made a big deal about the main characters Link being reincarnations of the Hero of Time not the Heroine or another gender-less term.