Support NeoGAF

[Mailbox]

Aonuma buddy, listen to me....do you and your team not possess that magical thing storytellers often like to refer to as an imagination? A means to imagine a story that could easily differentiate itself from the kind of story you've told us about a hundred times before? I mean, for example, if you seriously wanted to make Zelda the main character of the series for a change....

-Link could have been....a childhood friend, who would travel with Zelda as a travelling companion in her journey across Hyrule (whether as a dual-protagonist or an unplayable sidekick).
-Link could have been....a celebrated prince of Hyrule who would get kidnapped or imprisoned by Ganon (with Zelda having to rescue him, in a reversal of the traditional LoZ dynamic)
Link could have been...a beloved royal protector who Princess Zelda has become particularly fond of, only to mysteriously disappear one night when dark forces steal into Hyrule Castle, thus speaking off Princess Zelda's adventure out into Hyrule as she is determined to learn the truth about his disappearance.
-Link could have been....an older character from what we're normally used to, a seasoned adventurer, who would serve as a metaphor figure for a younger Zelda.
-Link could have been...Zelda's father, a retired adventurer who hung up the green tunic long ago, but who quietly encourages his daughter's fierce rebellious streak as she goes out into the world to have her own adventures.

In my eyes, Aonuma's words here don't so much speak to his staggeringly lack of creativity and imagination when it came to the task developing a new kind of story for this game, but his inability to envision a narrative that would exist out of the traditional rescuing hero/damsel in distress dynamic that has become so ingrained in the series as a whole, which only serves to speak as a fundamental failure on his part as a storyteller.

AMEN!
I would play any of those. I mean seriously, if the only thing imaginative and new about this LoZ is that its open world, then I lost all interest (and as an fyi, I did have interest in this until they showed off that trailer and made this statement. Now I have none). What a shitty explanation from Nintendo on this. Have some imagination, damn it!

If a female playable character just a dude with boobs to you, why would you even care in Link got some rad boobs?

Because there aren't enough boobied (read: female) adventurers in games. And more representation in games where it makes sense is always a plus? Having a choice in playing a guy or a gal would have calmed all problems (most likely).

 

[Kin5290]

STOP injecting POLITICS into fucking video games that were never made to be political to begin with, all you amateur politicians.

Not making Link, who is a legacy rather than an actual person, female, or not allowing Zelda to be playable on the grounds of "What would the male hero do if the female heroine is involved in the plot?" is an inherently political decision.

 

[……forgetit]

How convenient for men, then, that the most well-entrenched game franchises with a long history of support and guaranteed to receive sequels already star mostly male protagonists.

Link having the option to be female could have been a major symbolic victory for women in gaming. No new IP could have the same cultural weight as The Legend of Zelda. It would have meant a lot. It's just disappointing that it won't happen.

TO be fair Zelda is nintendo's only real franchise that always has a male character. Even mario has a female option in peach these days.

 

[Shig]

Zelda has been benched for whole games in the series, and the series has her fucking name in the title.

If you could make a Zelda game without Zelda, you can damn sure make a Zelda game without Link.

 

[stufte]

How convenient for men, then, that the most well-entrenched game franchises with a long history of support and guaranteed to receive sequels already star mostly male protagonists.

Link having the option to be female could have been a major symbolic victory for women in gaming. No new IP could have the same cultural weight as The Legend of Zelda. It would have meant a lot. It's just disappointing that it won't happen.

So you don't want to do what it would actually take to have real representation in games. You want an easy "look! we have females!" instead of actual representation that includes characters that were built female from the ground up. Changing Links gender is a veneer of representation, an entirely simple minded way of solving a problem.

Equality in games isn't about taking away, it's about adding.

 

[BassForever]

Honestly until we know what the heck Zelda's role in BotW is we probably shouldn't be dismissing Aonuma's comments. Like what if we find her and she's pregnant? Suddenly just simply switching her and Link wouldn't work.

 

[Metroidvania]

For me it's all about being attached to a character who has always been defined as a male and including a female option just for the sake of diversity doesn't make any sense. I cannot even imagine all my favorite male or even female protagonists getting gender swapped just for the sake of more options. All those characters would lose their charm and identity...

So....having the gender-swap option automatically negates all your previous cherished memories, or the charm/identity of the presumably still available male link option?

I just....I honestly don't see it.

Final Fantasy just came off a whole decade of female leads, so...

...Do you think this undermines the larger context of the point being made? Or are you just trying to derail?

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you don't want to do what it would actually take to have real representation in games. You want an easy "look! we have females!" instead of actual representation that includes characters that were built female from the ground up. Changing Links gender is a veneer of representation, an entirely simple minded way of solving a problem.

Equality in games isn't about taking away, it's about adding.

No one is taking away anything

Anyway how about if we just do both

Have existing series do better wrt representation while also doing better to feature new games starring women

 

[PtM]

This fucking place sometimes... Nintendo never promised or even hinted that this was going to happen. You just wanted it to happen.

No shit, sherlock.

 

[Rand0m TAG]

not talking about playable, but doesnt the zelda series have a whole bunch of strong female characters?

 

[Twiforce]

For me it's all about being attached to a character who has always been defined as a male and including a female option just for the sake of diversity doesn't make any sense. I cannot even imagine all my favorite male or even female protagonists getting gender swapped just for the sake of more options. All those characters would lose their charm and identity...

I would have no problem if this were an MMO since you are literally playing blank slate characters in those games whose gender/ appearance/ personality mean absolutely nothing.

Anyway I would personally much rather play as Zelda or an entirely new female protagonist within that universe as opposed to just playing a simple gender swapped Link.

Explain to me exactly how Link having a female option that you don't even has to play as would "deprive the character of their charm and identity." What about the character could possibly have to change to accommodate a gender options? What mannerism , personality traits or storylines could possibly be lost?

 

[Jobbs]

I'll never understand the big deal. Just put in a slightly modified model and call it a girl and let you pick it at the start when you're also picking your damn name. It's that kind of game. Letting you make basic choices like this is a long overdue thing.

It's not a big deal. Even the designers of the games would tell you the point is to let you use the character as a conduit, so it's natural that you should be able to make some choices.

Nothing big would have to change. I can't think of any reason for this not to be included aside from Nintendo being old and stuffy and conservative and possibly sexist.

 

[Razzorn34]

Yeah but what race would she have been.. I bet not black. How convinent.

Really. Has no one wondered why there isn't anyone complaining that Link isn't Black? Asian? Hispanic? At least have somewhat of a tan? This would also fit into the reincarnation story. Why? Because it makes as much sense as suddenly changing Link to female.

 

[Diffense]

Yeah but what race would she have been.. I bet not black. How convinent.

Exactly. How about a black lesbian? If not Nintendo is racist and homophobic.

 

[A Link to the Past]

not talking about playable, but doesnt the zelda series have a whole bunch of strong female characters?

Supporting characters, yes

That's not adequate, not at all, especially when a lot of the more famous female characters are from OoT, and at one point were intended to be "options" in a romance mechanic that got scrapped

Really. Has no one wondered why there isn't anyone complaining that Link isn't Black? Asian? Hispanic? At least have somewhat of a tan? This would also fit into the reincarnation story. Why? Because it makes as much sense as suddenly changing Link to female.

1. People have complained

2. Using "what about non-white representation" as a cudgel to hurt another argument about representation is disrespectful, and SUPER disrespectful if you are white.

 

[diaspora]

It would have been better had they offered the choice and nothing would be lost to the player. If he just said it was because he didn't care to/ want to do it, I'd be able to accept that but his reasoning is dumb.

 

[shangolin]

In spin-off games. Now FF is a game with literally no playable female characters.

Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2 and XIII-3 were spinoffs? That's probably a surprise to the company who spent 9~ years developing them as the face for their biggest franchise.

 

[Giever]

Man, that list took a long time to make. I had to watch fucking Youtube videos to see if some of those games has gender select options.

The vast majority of recently released Nintendo titles have female character options. The only main games I could even find that didn't were, like, Luigi's Mansion, and Zelda titles. That's pretty much it. Besides that, it depends on whether or not you care about the gender of Kirby, Yoshi, Chibi-Robo, etc.

 

[Kin5290]

Aonuma buddy, listen to me....do you and your team not possess that magical thing storytellers often like to refer to as an imagination? A means to imagine a story that could easily differentiate itself from the kind of story you've told us about a hundred times before? I mean, for example, if you seriously wanted to make Zelda the main character of the series for a change....

-Link could have been....a childhood friend, who would travel with Zelda as a travelling companion in her journey across Hyrule (whether as a dual-protagonist or an unplayable sidekick).
-Link could have been....a celebrated prince of Hyrule who would get kidnapped or imprisoned by Ganon (with Zelda having to rescue him, in a reversal of the traditional LoZ dynamic)
Link could have been...a beloved royal protector who Princess Zelda has become particularly fond of, only to mysteriously disappear one night when dark forces steal into Hyrule Castle, thus speaking off Princess Zelda's adventure out into Hyrule as she is determined to learn the truth about his disappearance.
-Link could have been....an older character from what we're normally used to, a seasoned adventurer, who would serve as a metaphor figure for a younger Zelda.
-Link could have been...Zelda's father, a retired adventurer who hung up the green tunic long ago, but who quietly encourages his daughter's fierce rebellious streak as she goes out into the world to have her own adventures.

In my eyes, Aonuma's words here don't so much speak to his staggeringly lack of creativity and imagination when it came to the task developing a new kind of story for this game, but his inability to envision a narrative that would exist out of the traditional rescuing hero/damsel in distress dynamic that has become so ingrained in the series as a whole, which only serves to speak as a fundamental failure on his part as a storyteller.

This is some good shit right here. Especially the last sentence. Saying "We're sticking with the traditional male hero/female damsel in distress story structure because if the damsel puts on armor of her own and slays the dragon then what would the hero do?" is also a political decision, and also a very conservative (in the non-political sense) and unimaginative one.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2 and XIII-3 were spinoffs? That's probably a surprise to the company who 9~ years developing them as the face for their biggest franchise.

...Yes? They are side stories to main games. FFX-2 was a side-story too. If they weren't, we'd have seen Final Fantasy XIV, XV, and XVI already.

 

[Ralemont]

...Do you think this undermines the larger context of the point being made? Or are you just trying to derail?

Actually discussing what games have female leads is trying to derail now, eh? Any interest in talking about this or did I just walk into a pitchfork and gasoline thread?

Yes, it does partially undermine the context of the point being made. Most Final Fantasy games, spin-off or otherwise, have either had female leads or female co-leads in like the last decade. I only brought it up because the poster specifically brought up Final Fantasy when mentioning the "lead" male leads have (which still absolutely exists).

 

[lifa-cobex]

In spin-off games. Now FF is a game with literally no playable female characters.

Unfortunately FF10-2 was cannon

 

[Mailbox]

didn't Nintendo also have a super dumb reason for only having male characters in triforce heroes? I remember them having some dumb backwards shit for that too.

 

[BassForever]

not talking about playable, but doesnt the zelda series have a whole bunch of strong female characters?

Yeah strong female allies and villains across the whole series

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

I'm gonna duck out of this one I think.

This is my most anticipated game and I don't want a disagreement with other GAFfers to be the focus of my attention for this new title.

For those of you that end up picking up this game, I hope you enjoy the fuck out of it. I'm going to watch a few more gameplay videos.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Unfortunately FF10-2 was cannon

FFX-2 is a side-story. I'm talking about mainline new entries, like XII vs. XIII and such.

 

[Plywood]

What is pandering, in this situation? Is it specifically including it for no other reason than people are asking for it, as opposed to some other narrative or gameplay-based decision?

Unless there's a different connotation, pandering has always seemed like a 'negative' aspect to me.

What distinguishes 'pandering' from something like responding to the changing nature and makeup of the market they're selling the game to?

(And to be clear, I'd be fine with either femLink or Zelda as a frontrunner)

In a way I feel it would have been pandering because of the way it started, which was as a rumor which steadily snowballed into an almost vocal demand and has now turned into some ire. It was something that Nintendo never really felt it had to address until today and to which they respond they had actually considered. Currently Aonuma and his team don't see a female Link and Nintendo doesn't seem to have (at least publicly) considered any potential effect it would have on the market. That's not to say things can't change though, but perhaps it would take a larger demand to show there is a market for it vs. a vocal minority.

 

[Razzorn34]

1. People have complained

2. Using "what about non-white representation" as a cudgel to hurt another argument about representation is disrespectful, and SUPER disrespectful if you are white.

How is this disrespectful? I'm just pointing out the overwhelming presence this thread has, and I've NEVER seen one about racial changes.

By the way, I'm black.

 

[PtM]

Well, there's still Horizon.

Spoiler

I don't have a PS4.

 

[Twiforce]

So you don't want to do what it would actually take to have real representation in games. You want an easy "look! we have females!" instead of actual representation that includes characters that were built female from the ground up. Changing Links gender is a veneer of representation, an entirely simple minded way of solving a problem.

Equality in games isn't about taking away, it's about adding.

Nobody is taking anything away by giving Link a gender option. And who cares if something is easy or not? Whether not not we choose to do something shouldn't be based on if it's easy or not. It should be based on the effect that it will have on people. I believe the option to select Link's gender would have a very positive effect on many people regardless of how "easy" or "simple minded" or "lazy" it is. I mean, heck- if something that pleases people and advances the representation of women in gaming is easy, isn't that all the more reason to do it?

 

[Pancakes R Us]

I think this reasoning is somehow even more disappointing than the actual lack of a female Link.

Exactly. What a joke of an explanation. Perhaps if the choice was there, the player would just choose and there'd be an option for Link to do something.

 

[shangolin]

...Yes? They are side stories to main games. FFX-2 was a side-story too. If they weren't, we'd have seen Final Fantasy XIV, XV, and XVI already.

You're using the term "side-story" to imply there was less budget, less time spent, less publicity, whatever, in order to make it sound as if Square Enix didn't put the effort into these games that they would put into a regular Final Fantasy. That these games weren't intended to be the public face of the franchise. This certainly isn't a reasonable argument to make, so I'll assume you're making a different one and I'm understanding you wrong.

 

[A Link to the Past]

How is this disrespectful? I'm just pointing out the overwhelming presence this thread has, and I've NEVER seen one about racial changes.

By the way, I'm black.

In that case it's not super disrespectful. :v

The issue is that if you are bringing it up because you seriously want Link to have a race option (I've gone on record as saying that I would be fine with it in past threads), then that's fine. But introducing it in order to produce a "gotcha!" against those who want a gender option I think is kind of poor form.

You're using the term "side-story" to imply there was less budget, less time spent, less publicity, whatever, in order to make it sound as if Square Enix didn't put the effort into these games that they would put into a regular Final Fantasy. That these games weren't intended to be the public face of the franchise. This certainly isn't a reasonable argument to make, so I'll assume you're making a different one and I'm understand you wrong.

I am making the point that SE does a really poor job of balanced representation. Even if we account for the side games, FFXIII-2 had a male and female lead. It is not exactly a balanced situation when the only all-girl game was a continuation of FFX (which would inherently limit its appeal and sales potential).

 

[DangerMouse]

This fucking place sometimes... Nintendo never promised or even hinted that this was going to happen. You just wanted it to happen.

To be fair, Nintendo has no one to blame but themselves for this, not to mention letting it linger during the reveal day.

I think that might be true if this were not a long-running request unique to this series since those who want it can also rightfully blame Aonuma for fanning the flames.
Blame Aonuma for being wink, wink, nudge, nudge about the ONE thing he should know better than to do it with in Zelda after years of requests for exactly this.

Play coy about all the game elements he wants but what, did no one on his staff not recognize that this character in the blue tunic that pushed the usual androgyny a little further in this art style might get the response it got? Even after the outpouring of articles theorizing that might be what people were seeing? That the blue instead of green tunic in major promotional materials wouldn't lead people to imagine "maybe there's something to look into here"? Did he not remember that a good portion of the fanbase has been asking for this for decades due to the unique loophole that is Link, which is supported by their assertion that Link in these main Zelda games is a "self insert" more than a character? This is something that has been brewing in the Zelda fanbase for decades.

They also could have gotten out in front of it so many times with more than just a cursory brief "no, it's Link" hours later response or just told everyone he was Link before the trailer if anyone in their staff watched the trailer and asked the same question many of the fans did.

 

[Twiforce]

Yeah strong female allies and villains across the whole series

Women like us just should be happy with being non-playable characters who exist only to serve the playable male protagonist in his character development/power fantasy quest. Right?

 

[GOOCHY]

No shit, sherlock.

So, you're angry at Nintendo for not doing something that they never explicitly or even alluded to doing?

 

[Lupin the Third]

Isn't it possible his rationalization is dancing around the issue because there's a story-related reason for sticking with male Link that would be a spoiler if he explained it properly? i.e.,

Spoiler

he's the Wind Waker Link all grown up after being in hibernation for a long time?

 

[stufte]

Women like us just should be happy with being non-playable characters who exist only to serve the playable male protagonist in his character development/power fantasy quest. Right?

You do know there are TONS of fantastic games with fantastic female leads, right?

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Nintendo has no one to blame but themselves for this, not to mention letting it linger during the reveal day.

I think that might be true if this were not a long-running request unique to this series since those who want it can also rightfully blame Aonuma for fanning the flames.
Blame Aonuma for being wink, wink, nudge, nudge about the ONE thing he should know better than to do it with in Zelda after years of requests for exactly this.

Play coy about all the game elements he wants but what, did no one on his staff not recognize that this character in the blue tunic that pushed the usual androgyny a little further in this art style might get the response it got? Even after the outpouring of articles theorizing that might be what we were seeing? That the blue instead of green tunic in major promotional materials wouldn't lead people to imagine "maybe there's something to look into here"? Did he not remember that a good portion of the fanbase has been asking for this for decades due to the unique loophole that is Link, which is supported by their assertion that Link in these main Zelda games is a "self insert" more than a character? This is something that has been brewing in the Zelda fanbase for decades.

But he already said he was male back in 2014 after the initial reveal.. How long are yall going to play dumb about this?

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3...nfirms-the-hero-is-link-is-male/1100-6420451/

 

[lightskintwin]

So you don't want to do what it would actually take to have real representation in games. You want an easy "look! we have females!" instead of actual representation that includes characters that were built female from the ground up. Changing Links gender is a veneer of representation, an entirely simple minded way of solving a problem.

Equality in games isn't about taking away, it's about adding.

I'm going to have to agree with this. I'd prefer Nintendo to create new iconic female and people of color characters that are given their full support rather than merely gender/race swapping existing white male characters.

 

[balgajo]

Man, GAF meltdown is gold...

 

[PtM]

So, you're angry* at Nintendo for not doing something that they never explicitly or even alluded to doing?

Yes.

*disappointed

 

[etrain911]

Also, can I

Really quick

Can I just bring this up since people keep bringing Samus up?

Why can Federation Forces star a bunch of randos, but Zelda cannot star the second most important character?

I'm equally as upset about Nintendo's decision to not include a female Link or a playable Zelda, but, it isn't as though people aren't upset about Federation Force. People are furious about that game's very existence.

 

[KingBroly]

Nintendo has no one to blame but themselves for this, not to mention letting it linger during the reveal day.

I think that might be true if this were not a long-running request unique to this series since those who want it can also rightfully blame Aonuma for fanning the flames.
Blame Aonuma for being wink, wink, nudge, nudge about the ONE thing he should know better than to do it with in Zelda after years of requests for exactly this.

Play coy about all the game elements he wants but what, did no one on his staff not recognize that this character in the blue tunic that pushed the usual androgyny a little further in this art style might get the response it got? Even after the outpouring of articles theorizing that might be what people were seeing? That the blue instead of green tunic in major promotional materials wouldn't lead people to imagine "maybe there's something to look into here"? Did he not remember that a good portion of the fanbase has been asking for this for decades due to the unique loophole that is Link, which is supported by their assertion that Link in these main Zelda games is a "self insert" more than a character? This is something that has been brewing in the Zelda fanbase for decades.

They could have gotten out in front of it so many times.

If Nintendo commented on every rumor, that's all they'd ever do.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You do know there are TONS of fantastic games with fantastic female leads, right?

What would you estimate is the count of games on Nintendo consoles this gen with fantastic female leads?

I'm equally as upset about Nintendo's decision to not include a female Link or a playable Zelda, but, it isn't as though people aren't upset about Federation Force. People are furious about that game's very existence.

I'm more addressing the double standard. No one at Nintendo questioned the lack of Samus or asked "What would Samus do?"

 

[lifa-cobex]

FFX-2 is a side-story. I'm talking about mainline new entries, like XII vs. XIII and such.

It's still a final fantasy game and marketed as such.

It's a continuation of the FF10 story. It continues the story of Yuna and Tidus
If it was marketed as FF11, It would come off as confusing to fans and it wouldn't make sense.

It is a (unfortunate) mainline entry.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Women like us just should be happy with being non-playable characters who exist only to serve the playable male protagonist in his character development/power fantasy quest. Right?

wat are you doing?

what is happening??

lol I hope this thread doesn't get locked actually...

What would you estimate is the count of games on Nintendo consoles this gen with fantastic female leads?

someone already did a list war thing a few posts ago so you guys should go at it.

 

[uncelestial]

1. Sometimes you control an avatar, sometimes you control a character. Link is a character.
2. There is no need to retcon male characters to have playable female characters. "Give me a female version of this male character" is indeed a weird demand. Why not a different character, and leave Link alone?
3. People who want to act like swapping out the protagonist and main playable character is some kind of easy switcheroo clearly have no idea what it's like to have a creative team all come together to design, model, animate, voice, and write a ton of NPC dialogue around the playable character -- and that's before even getting to problems like de-gendering pronouns, implementing a "switchable protagonist" system, etc. To think Nintendo was going to do all this, mid development-cycle, because of internet rumors, was always foolhardy.

 

[Twiforce]

You do know there are TONS of fantastic games with fantastic female leads, right?

Sure, tons next to another 100x more tons of games with male leads. Not to mention even in games with female leads we still have to deal with random sexual objectification and all sorts of other annoying tropes.

But we should just be happy with our crumbs, shouldn't we?

 

[Sifl]

So, you're angry at Nintendo for not doing something that they never explicitly or even alluded to doing?

Yes he is, along with everyone else complaining. Nintendo had a shit response/reasoning for not doing it, but the only reason they had to give an explanation was because people put faith in a rumor that turned out wrong.