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[orthodoxy1095]

They're both essentially Captain America style serum-powered supersoldiers lore wise.

Yeah, pretty much. They definitely fit that Captain America style of supersoldier. Which is why them actually being "old" barely seems to actually come across. The oldest thing about 76 is a couple of voicelines like his "back in my day" which led to the whole "Dad 76" thing.

 

[Rockyrock]

I'm going to ask this rhetorically because it's obvious you don't, but:

Do you see how comparing lack of representation of leisure activities/professions to lack of representation with respect to sex and age is completely insincere?

did you understand the entire point of me picking such an obscene example?

evidently not

 

[Frumix]

Mercy and Widowmaker are the two that bugged me. They would have benefited from looking mature/their age. Cryogenically frozen, being a physically different person (Pharah), or temporal vortexes are things I can buy at least.

Debunked by the devs.

 

[HK-47]

It's a future setting with ridiculous technology such as super-healing nanomachines or buildings out of hard light. Anything goes.

Except older females

 

[maouvin]

If you do some math, Mercy is probably not actually 37, she's probably much older.

Why?

 

[ahoyhoy]

Mercy and Widowmaker are the two that bugged me. They would have benefited from looking mature/their age. Cryogenically frozen, being a physically different person (Pharah), or temporal vortexes are things I can buy at least.

Mercy especially. She could have been modeled after modern-day Jane Fonda and her excellent mobility could have been explained away by her cybernetic suit (which is how Reinhardt moves around like he does I have to assume).

 

[Timeaisis]

What math? Are the ages listed by the Lore wrong??

Man it would really help this discussion if we had an accurate list of all the ages.

Overwatch started 30 years prior to the events of the game. Mercy was in Overwatch. Therefore, Mercy is probably older than 37.

For reference, she was in OW with Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes (Soldier 76 and Reaper, respectively) who while are aged as "unlisted", it can easily be deduced that Soldier 76 is at least in his 40s or 50s. Same for Reaper.

EDIT: Not trying to criticize the game for making her 37, I don't care. I'm just saying it seems like their timeline doesn't really add up when you consider male and female characters. Unless Mercy was super young she was in Overwatch. Which, I guess is possible.

 

[Despera]

Mercy was 37 when the game was first conceived, so logically she should actually be 40+ at this point, fulfilling one of OP's arbitrary criteria

 

[stufte]

I don't get what you are saying here. You don't care about characters backstorys? Well okay, that's fine but a lot of people do.

I think you over estimate the number of people who care that Mei doesn't look her age.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

So if sombra ends up being Pharah's mom, and she's wearing the mask like we saw in Nirolak's post, that will mean yet another visibly old person who's face is covered.
Soldier: Face covered by default, unless you wear the skin that makes him young.
Reaper: assumedly around the same age as soldier. Face covered, but that's probably for darth vader-esque reasons.
Reindhardt: Face covered by default. can be shown with a epic or legendary skin.
Roadhog: Face covered.

Torbjorn is the one exception.

Actually that's an interesting point. All the old dudes by default have their face covered. Wish they'd add someone like Zameen who isn't like that.

And Toblerone is just a dwarf archetype, so his face is hardly noteworthy.

 

[The_Player]

Except older females

I can say for a fact that you're one of the very small circle of people who would love to associate themselves with old females. A lot of games are power fantasies, and Overwatch isn't exception. Everyone wants to be as beautiful as they're powerful. It seems as you're just trying to get offended to keep in trend.

 

[frontovik]

So Widowmaker's blue skin colour is because she tampered with her body's breathing mechanisms? Lol.

 

[maouvin]

Overwatch started 30 years prior to the events of the game. Mercy was in Overwatch. Therefore, Mercy is probably older than 37.

She wasn't part of the initial OW formation. Those were Rein, Morrison, Reyes, Torb and Phara's mom. We don't know enough to tell if she's older than officially noted.

 

[redcrayon]

I see alot of people mentioning body types when talking about older women.
What do body types have to do with age?

There are plenty of old women who look amazing for their age (or any age for that matter), and plenty of young women who are in terrible shape.

My point is, if they add a lady with gray hair and wrinkles with a fit physique... would some of you be unhappy with that?

It's brought up because it's a related issue, not just a single conflated issue of body types for older women.

Male characters can be any age, and any body type, including being ridiculously huge. Female characters tend to be young, and have fairly similar silhouettes. Variety of age and variety of body type for female characters are different issues but with a similar cause (a narrower idealised form for women plus the requirement to be sexually appealing) so it's no wonder they go hand in hand.

I don't really understand why all female characters in a large cast have to be in their 20s and 30s. It's not like it would suddenly stop people finding someone to play if an older female character was present alongside the younger ones, but female heroism seems to be only associated with youth and beauty.

I think elderly female characters (and people) can still be incredibly beautiful. Actually, of the one I mentioned earlier, Wynne from Dragon Age, it was a touch silly that they used the same young female body template as the 20-something characters, when there are a few subtle clues to her age they could have added (apart from her face). I think that was more of a problem of a lack of variety for human bodies in the game in general though, so everyone in the entire world looked similarly trim, young and athletic whether they were 16, 40 or 70.

 

[Wavebossa]

Overwatch started 30 years prior to the events of the game. Mercy was in Overwatch. Therefore, Mercy is probably older than 37.

For reference, she was in OW with Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes (Soldier 76 and Reaper, respectively) who while are aged as "unlisted", it can easily be deduced that Soldier 76 is at least in his 40s or 50s. Same for Reaper.

Interesting.

Seems like we REALLY need to establish how old everyone actually is supposed to be before this discussion goes any further.

I'm fine with mercy being 37, but if she's supposed to 67... nah not buying it

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This, to me, is insane. We're talking about an active war game. I almost think the older heroes that are there shouldn't be.

The US Military limits recruitment age for all of their branches to no greater than 39 for the Air Force, who has the highest age restriction. And while there is no specific age restriction for combat roles, many soldiers are "aged out" between 30 and 34. Meaning they can no longer participate in combat.

So, my question to the complaints of ageism and sexism here is twofold: Do you think it is ageist of the military to do so? And regardless of your answer to that, do you accept that it's realistic to not have 50+ year old women in active combat, or is it more likely that this is a fantasy game totally made up and therefore complaining that they don't exist here is arbitrary?

Well, this isn't an active war game exactly, and the rest of your entire supporting argument is a red herring, but it is absolutely a fantasy game. That's the central problem. The fantasy is still 10 different types of men of various ages with mechanical enhancements to make up shortcomings, and they are all cool and super dudes and stuff. And of course the ladies are there too, and some of them have machines and stuff, and they have different body types too, but they're all cute and youthful while the guys aren't. Is it enormously difficult to identify whose fantasy this is?

This is literally all fighting games. Old females are strictly prohibited.

Well, there's always Power Instinct, but I wouldn't exactly hold up Range Murata as a bastion of progressive character design

 

[Glass Shark]

Is it possible for GAF not to be offended?

It's not about being "offended." This isn't a thread where someone made a specious comment and decided to get huffy and cross their arms and yell about things. The OP made a very well-reasoned criticism of the game. It deserves better than dismissal.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

So Widowmaker's blue skin colour is because she tampered with her body's breathing mechanisms? Lol.

It's Quite all over again.

 

[Kalentan]

She wasn't part of the initial OW formation. Those were Rein, Morrison, Reyes, Torb and Phara's mom. We don't know enough to tell if she's older than officially noted.

And Liao... but everyone forgets about Liao.

 

[HK-47]

I can say for a fact that you're one of the very small circle of people who would love to associate themselves with old females. A lot of games are power fantasies, and Overwatch isn't exception. Everyone wants to be as beautiful as they're powerful. It seems as you're just trying to get offended to keep in trend.

You responded to a glib joke reply.

 

[Azoor]

She wasn't part of the initial OW formation. Those were Rein, Morrison, Reyes, Torb and Phara's mom. We don't know enough to tell if she's older than officially noted.

Mrecy Knew Phara's mom, and we don't know how much they knew eachother before she died.

Timeline is a such a clusterfuck in the lore of Overwatch.

 

[Frumix]

Well, this isn't an active war game exactly, and the rest of your entire supporting argument is a red herring, but it is absolutely a fantasy game. That's the central problem. The fantasy is still 10 different types of men of various ages with mechanical enhancements to make up shortcomings, and they are all cool and super dudes and stuff. And of course the ladies are there too, and some of them have machines and stuff, and they have different body types too, but they're all cute and youthful while the guys aren't. Is it enormously difficult to identify whose fantasy this is?



Well, there's always Power Instinct, but I wouldn't exactly hold up Range Murata as a bastion of progressive character design

Man, in what world is Zarya considered cute?

 

[Derpot]

I can say for a fact that you're one of the very small circle of people who would love to associate themselves with old females. A lot of games are power fantasies, and Overwatch isn't exception. Everyone wants to be as beautiful as they're powerful. It seems as you're just trying to get offended to keep in trend.

Again, this is stupid. Junkrat, Roadhog and Torbjörn are not "beautiful" but people loves them because they're cool characters.
Why can't an old woman be powerful, fun and cool as well?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Overwatch started 30 years prior to the events of the game. Mercy was in Overwatch. Therefore, Mercy is probably older than 37.

For reference, she was in OW with Jack Morrison and Gabriel Reyes (Soldier 76 and Reaper, respectively) who while are aged as "unlisted", it can easily be deduced that Soldier 76 is at least in his 40s or 50s. Same for Reaper.

You should at least try to know the lore you're trying to explain.

Mercy was not part of the initial Overwatch team. Overwatch was also a decade-long organization. She joined the group well into its existence. She is 37. There is no lore inconsistency there.

She wasn't part of the initial OW formation. Those were Rein, Morrison, Reyes, Torb and Phara's mom. We don't know enough to tell if she's older than officially noted.

I guess in theory yeah, we don't know. But there's no real reason to suspect it since it all falls within the parameters of the lore they've set out so far.

 

[spiderman123]

Looking at the games, games have a long way to come long way. Gay characters, leading minority and female characters etc. Culturally it is happening but personally, I think some people are taking the discussion way to far. A slow and reasonable progression needs to occur b/c if we are simply making games just for the sake of diversity, that is defeating the purpose. I think designers, storytellers,creators, programmers etc..Will focus more on meeting the needs to endless complaints of diversity than on the game (simply b/c we need to meet some sort of "diversity quota) itself. Honestly it seems we have a new issue popping up everyday and that is not to say that there isn't legitimacy to some but lets be reasonable in our criticisms.

 

[zoukka]

I can say for a fact that you're one of the very small circle of people who would love to associate themselves with old females. A lot of games are power fantasies, and Overwatch isn't exception. Everyone wants to be as beautiful as they're powerful. It seems as you're just trying to get offended to keep in trend.

Plenty of people like to make old dudes in dark souls games and in any games that allow you to.

Games cater to boys and young men, that's the only explanation here.

 

[Nudull]

Yeah...thinking about it now, it's pretty damn questionable. Why does Blizzard seem so abrasive about adding older women? Hell, why so many convenient de-aging origin stories for the women who are past their 20's?

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Are you forgetting Death Prophet?



She might be dead, but she's old.

She's even voiced by Ellen Mclain, who is in her 60's

Plus we have two additional older characters Aurel and Keeper of the Light. One rides a gyrocopter, the other a horse. Sadly the game pokes fun at them losing their memory and being creepy with the young ladies.

Not young ladies. Kotl flirts with everything that's identified as female.

 

[Manu]

It's not about being "offended." This isn't a thread where someone made a specious comment and decided to get huffy and cross their arms and yell about things. The OP made a very well-reasoned criticism of the game. It deserves better than dismissal.

I can see how the thread title can be inflammatory for some people though, with the "laughably convenient" and all.

And you know the drive-by shitposters only read the title and won't even bother with the OP.

 

[reSpec Gaming]

Debunked by the devs.

Oh I was just going by what the OP said, didn't fact check. My bad - well then to be fair olive skinned races do actually keep their complexion for a long time (this being an anecdotal statement because I'm Filipino).

 

[Wavebossa]

It's brought up because it's a related issue, not just a single conflated issue of body types for older women.

Male characters can be any age, and any body type, including being ridiculously huge. Female characters tend to be young, and have fairly similar silhouettes. Both are different issues but with a similar cause (a narrower idealised form for women plus the requirement to be sexually appealing) so it's no wonder they go hand in hand.

I think elderly female characters (and people) can still be incredibly beautiful. Actually, of the one I mentioned earlier, Wynne from Dragon Age, it was a touch silly that they used the same young female body template as the 20-something characters, when there are a few subtle clues to her age they could have added (apart from her face). I think that was more of a problem of a lack of variety for human bodies in the game in general though, so everyone in the entire world looked similarly trim, young and athletic whether they were 16, 40 or 70.

Its related in a sense of representing the broad spectrum of women, but it has absolutely nothing to do with body types (as in it doesn't affect it).

Explain to me how its silly that an older woman can have the physique of a 20 something?

If I saw a silhouette of Kelly Ripa, I wouldn't be able to guess her age, and neither would anyone else

 

[maouvin]

And Liao... but everyone forgets about Liao.

Liao was probably the one taking those cool photos of the team, it's easy to forget about him/her.

 

[Moobabe]

Looking at the games, games have a long way to come long way. Gay characters, leading minority and female characters etc. Culturally it is happening but personally, I think some people are taking the discussion way to far. A slow and reasonable progression needs to occur b/c if we are simply making games just for the sake of diversity, that is defeating the purpose. I think designers, storytellers,creators, programmers etc..Will focus more on meeting the needs to endless complaints of diversity than on the game (simply b/c we need to meet some sort of "diversity quota) itself. Honestly it seems we have a new issue popping up everyday and that is not to say that there isn't legitimacy to some but lets be reasonable in our criticisms.

I think this issue is so ingrained in gaming that we almost see it as a non issue.

I mean, don't you think it's a little weird (at least) that there's no women over 37 in such a diverse cast that includes robots and gorillas?

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Man, in what world is Zarya considered cute?

I think she's cute.

 

[Timeaisis]

You should at least try to know the lore you're trying to explain.

Mercy was not part of the initial Overwatch team. Overwatch was also a decade-long organization. She joined the group well into its existence. She is 37. There is no lore inconsistency there.

I guess in theory yeah, we don't know. But there's no real reason to suspect it since it all falls within the parameters of the lore they've set out so far.

Just going by what I'm seeing. There's a lack of official lore, and it seems to me Mercy was intended to be a lot older, but was aged down after the fact.

 

[HK-47]

Looking at the games, games have a long way to come long way. Gay characters, leading minority and female characters etc. Culturally it is happening but personally, I think some people are taking the discussion way to far. A slow and reasonable progression needs to occur b/c if we are simply making games just for the sake of diversity, that is defeating the purpose. I think designers, storytellers,creators, programmers etc..Will focus more on meeting the needs to endless complaints of diversity than on the game (simply b/c we need to meet some sort of "diversity quota) itself. Honestly it seems we have a new issue popping up everyday and that is not to say that there isn't legitimacy to some but lets be reasonable in our criticisms.

What about this discussion has been unreasonable?

 

[PSqueak]

I was gonna suggest OP to play battleborn instead, but then i realized their female characters aren't waifu bait not because they're old, but because they're ugly.

In any case, can we at least wait for sombra before casting judgement?

Man, in what world is Zarya considered cute?

Those are fighting words, Zarya is adorable.

 

[AESplusF]

The title should be something more like "Despite Overwatch having one of the most diverse cast of characters, it could be better".

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Overwatch having one of the most diverse cast of characters

It's not.
There are many games which has better diversity in it's cast than Overwatch.

 

[Dreavus]

I only tentatively agree about Mei. Having her be frozen is a little goofy and just comes off as "we wanted her to be cute but still somehow have ties to Overwatch while it was active/Overwatch in the past".

Which... is why I think there may be all these contrivances in the first place. I think they had specific designs in mind for their characters, but wanted to tie them back to Overwatch while it was still active.

The other examples aside from Mei, though; I think they mostly have solid justifications for their ages if we're not being completely cynical. Tracer has the time travel thing as absolutely core to her character, and she plays as a very fast and quick character which I think is fair for her being youthful. Pharah has issues with her mother that we haven't seen the full extent of, and it's possible her mother is coming back as her own character, so I don't see her as a just a "replacement"; there's more hiding in there. Widowmaker is for better or for worse going for the Femme Fatale trope, which makes her appearance a bit obvious but also expected (that could be it's own separate discussion, but it's not an uncommon concept to portray at this point). Mercy is one of the most interesting characters in the game and there are many mysteries she's got her hands in, including her distinct lack of aging. D.Va's a pro-gamer-turned-mech-pilot, and the actual pro gaming industry is notorious for it's lack of older players and people seem to age out of it very quickly; changing her age would mean changing her core inspiration. Symmetra could have been designed as older I suppose, but I think her current age plays into the idealism she harbours for her company and the future, despite some "ends justify the means" projects they seem to be getting up to. As for Zarya there hasn't been much info on her back story IIRC, or at least she seems fairly isolated from the rest of the cast, so that could very well be an arbitrary choice as well.

And this is where these kinds of discussions go a little sour for me. Very similar to the "Female Link" thread, we're stuck discussing hypotheticals about the design process which we don't really have much business directing or having a say in from the outside looking in IMO. Yes, they could have had a female Link, but decided not to (reasons publicly given were poor, but it still stands). Yes, they could have designed some of these characters as older, but they decided not to. Saying "they have a diverse cast of women but no one is allowed to look older than 30" feels extremely nit picky to me. Would you have preferred some of the existing cast to be older and compromise their design vision for that character, or have one of these women cut for someone of a completely different design? Trying to think of who was "arbitrarily" "made younger" and who wasn't because they're "not allowed to look old" seems like a fool's errand to me, because we weren't privy to the design process behind the cast.

It's worth nothing that no robots or true cyborgs in the game can be female.

I don't think you can say that that with such certainty. Obviously there are none in the game as playable characters yet, but in the universe there very well might be, there is still a lot we don't know. Or are you just referring to the robots as being genderless in general? Zenyatta seems to be quite clearly portraying a male personality. The Athena AI has a female countenance and is another character rumored to be coming down the line.

Overall I think this is something that might be worth discussing, but I don't think it should take anything away from Blizzard's pretty fantastic and diverse cast that they've already made, which is what the OP seems to be suggesting in the second last line. I think bringing this up as a discussion could make some room for future characters to show this side of the team, but picking apart the cast as it stands doesn't do anyone any favours.

 

[Perona]

I've thought about this too, and it's pretty silly. Especially the Tracer/Mei thing they do. And regarding Mercy, there's some line where Mei and Mercy talk about how they both still look very young despite fighting in Overwatch together.

If you do some math, Mercy is probably not actually 37, she's probably much older. So even then, they don't even want to put Mercy's *real* age so they settle for 37 (which is SO OLD to Blizzard lol). Same with Tracer and Mei (who are probably actually like in their 40s or 50s at this point). It's a weird justification for sure.

But then again, you have to figure Blizzard is appealing to their audience: 18 - 35 year old men. Interesting how all the women fall into that age bracket, except Mercy.

I believe 31 may be Mei's Actual age if she wasn't put into cryostasis. Her body is younger though. Tracer was only gone for 1 year.

 

[AESplusF]

It's not.
There are many games which has better diversity in it's cast than Overwatch.

Give me an example of games with more diversity, don't just say no.

 

[Shadoken]

Fighting games are heavily guilty of this too. But I blame the fanbase more than the devs, the younger schoolgirl characters rank much higher than older age females in character polls. For example Sakura and Ibuki compared to Rose and Viper. Then they start whining about devs not listening to fanbase blah blah.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's not.
There are many games which has better diversity in it's cast than Overwatch.

Such as?

 

[dofry]

Apologies for not reading all of the 6 pages of comments and only writing my thoughts here now.

I know some really nice looking 40+ ladies and I'd really like to see more mature characters in new games. There is definitely a market for young and older gamers but the concensus is young at the moment. Japanese especially forget to have older characters in many games. Nier had double protagonists for Japan and the US (I say this because I think when Japanese talk about west, they talk about United States only). This felt like a step in trying to understand the audience. Not perfect but a good thing. Now when I played 'the last of us' I was really happy Joel was a mature guy and the girlfriend/companion a mature woman. I needed more of that but for story purposes the dad+daughter worked. Would it have worked with "mom+son" thematics? Of course it could have. Offering the opportunity to choose gender is double the work so choosing the basic option is easiest for ND. Maybe in the future they'll choose a mass-murdering granny Drake.

Now Overwatch has some age related issued regarding the diversity between males and females. This is a nice topic to discuss about and i try and get back to this thread later. What I'd also like to talk about are the nationalities. It's not all 'murica fuck yeah' but a fairly diverse group around the globe and space. That part they got right. Leaning a bit towards english speaking countries is kinda understandable for sales.

Anyway, off to sauna and more beers. Apologies if the text is not all that clear.

 

[Velkyn]

So Widowmaker's blue skin colour is because she tampered with her body's breathing mechanisms? Lol.

Hmm, where have I seen this kind of thing before

"You see it's because she breathes through her sk-"

 

[PSqueak]

Give me an example of games with more diversity, don't just say no.

The TimeSplitter series.

It should have, TS2 has over 120 playable characters, TS:Future Perfect has over 200.

 

[Onivulk]

Man, in what world is Zarya considered cute?

Zaryas face and hair are cute imo. Her body isn't cute to me but does appear strong and that's attractive to me at least.

 

[BRocknRolla]

It's not an incorrect observation. I myself was thinking about this the other day, though didn't realize that contrivances had been invented for several of the characters. It's a weird thing.

Is it offensive? I don't know. But it is weird.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Give me an example of games with more diversity, don't just say no.

Suikoden?