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[Jebusman]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

Note that it's listing the "minimum" possible (lol write not read) speed.

I can assure you that any SD you buy that isn't literally an unlabeled chinese clone of an SD card is going to read/write at sustained speeds higher than that.

I've seen SD cards hold sustained read/writes as high as 240MB/s. Sure those are a little too expensive to be mass producing for a console, but I think you are grossly underestimating how far SD tech has come.

 

[Vanillalite]

Go look on Amazon.

That's direct from the SD Association ffs

https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/speed_class/

 

[Pokemaniac]

All I see is flash drives. Unless I am mistaken....

Flash memory is a subset of SSDs.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

laughing that this is still going on. cartridges would mean no third parties straight off the bat. it would be a suicidal move.

 

[MacTag]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

Those are sequential write speeds, not read speeds. And a comparison with sd cards doesn't really matter since Nintendo uses a different kind of faster read only memory anyway (Macronix Xtra ROM).

 

[Theanine3D]

laughing that this is still going on. cartridges would mean no third parties straight off the bat. it would be a suicidal move.

Didn't seem to hurt the 3DS, which had far more and better third party support than the Wii U ever did.

 

[DaveMG]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

Those are write speeds read speed will be much higher (not sure exactly how fast though)

 

[Vanillalite]

Note that it's listing the "minimum" possible read speed.

I can assure you that any SD you buy that isn't literally an unlabeled chinese clone of an SD card is going to read/write at sustained speeds higher than that.

I've seen SD cards hold sustained read/writes as high as 240MB/s. Sure those are a little too expensive to be mass producing for a console, but I think you are grossly underestimating how far SD tech has come.

Money has been the point from the get go though?

To get a cart that is high capacity and fast enough to keep up vs going BR + HDD.

Granted if we aren't talking PS4/Xbone power and we are talking something that is more Nintendo handheld on the TV then maybe this could work out.

 

[bomblord1]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

30 is a minimum for the rating some cards can do up to 240 https://havecamerawilltravel.com/photographer/fastest-sd-cards

With UHS-II and a speed class of U3, Lexar rates this one for a read speed of up to 300 MB/s (or 2000x) but, as usual, doesn’t publish a write speed other than “write speeds slower.” But this card boasts impressive sequential write speed as well and is currently the fastest SD card I’ve tested. I was able to get over 241 MB/s of sustained write speed out of it. It’s in its Lexar Professional line and comes in 32GB, 64GB, and 128GB versions.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Yes, NX devices will definitely have internal and expandable storage. How else would the eShop work?

I even think they might move saves for phyical games over too given their talk about cloud saves with their new account system. It's make the game cards cheaper too if they can drop that rewritable memory pool.

Eh, you could really argue both ways whether cloud or on cart saves would be more conducive to the shared platform thing. It could go either way.

 

[capitalCORN]

Flash memory is a subset of SSDs.

If you're going to be that general it might as well be. What the rest of the world considers SSDs is worlds different from that definition.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Didn't seem to hurt the 3DS, which had far more and better third party support than the Wii U ever did.

that's a handheld. if nintendo release a console in 2017 using cartridges, pretty much every third party making multiplat games will let out a sensible chuckle and not release a thing on it. why would a third party spend more (because cartridges cost a good deal more than optical media) to sell on a console that's succeeding one of the biggest disasters in a while?

 

[Eradicate]

I did a double take the other day watching this Miyamoto interview. Towards the end the translator says:



Now it seems less like a translation error and more like a slip up!

!!!!! Whoa!

 

[Dark Cloud]

laughing that this is still going on. cartridges would mean no third parties straight off the bat. it would be a suicidal move.

If this is true and Ubisoft and Warner Bros. are already supporting kind of makes you wrong. :/

 

[Vanillalite]

30 is a minimum for the rating some cards can do up to 300

Of course the top end can.

The top end are gonna be even MORE EXPENSIVE than BR and we already have Nintendo eating a few bucks per cart anyways compared to BR manufacturing.

 

[Alebrije]

pass me the inhaler!

The real ocarina of time

 

[SomedayTheFire]

If this is true and Ubisoft and Warner Bros. are already supporting kind of makes you wrong. :/

if it's not true it makes me right. cartridges won't happen for a home console.

 

[MacTag]

Eh, you could really argue both ways whether cloud or on cart saves would be more conducive to the shared platform thing. It could go either way.

Well they already do it for console games. It'll save costs on the cards though which would be a bigger benefit going forward I think and everyone's used to cloud/wireless synching now anyway.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I did a double take the other day watching this Miyamoto interview. Towards the end the translator says:



Now it seems less like a translation error and more like a slip up!

Holy shit, Miyamoto just said to use different media! He was talking about the future (aka NX). @_@

 

[Pokemaniac]

laughing that this is still going on. cartridges would mean no third parties straight off the bat. it would be a suicidal move.

Do you have any actual arguments for this aside from "lol cartridges"? Because this isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.

If you're going to be that general it might as well be. What the rest of the world considers SSDs is worlds different from that definition.

I'm pretty sure the Wii U internal memory uses the same NAND tech that you'd find in an SSD.

 

[Off-Kilter]

I did a double take the other day watching this Miyamoto interview. Towards the end the translator says:



Now it seems less like a translation error and more like a slip up!

This thing keeps getting traction. Too much smoke to not suspect a fire.

 

[Thraktor]

You still arent getting near HDD speed

These are minimum write speeds. You can pick up a 32GB SD card with 80MB/s read speeds for $12. That's within the ballpark of the sequential read speed you'd expect from the 2.5" hard drives you get in PS4 and XBO.

Not that Nintendo would be using flash memory, or would be in any way limited by commercial flash memory interfaces, anyway.

 

[Vanillalite]

The whole point was people said Nintendo could just use a proprietary equivalent to something like a class 10 card and come in just a tad higher than the BR option. I calculated $1.67 difference in the last thread.

Now everyone is saying they can use top of the line UHD cards.

 

[Instro]

That's direct from the SD Association ffs

https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/speed_class/

I'm aware. You're misunderstanding that chart, ergo go look on Amazon for the available max speeds of cards on the market. Of course Nintendo doesn't use SD Cards anyway, but you get the idea.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Do you have any actual arguments for this aside from "lol cartridges"? Because this isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.

they're more expensive. that's the only argument needed. a third party publisher won't want to waste their money on having to use a completely different manufacturing pipeline for one console.

The only problem I see with the cartridge theory (i.e. the cart inside the game box works on both the handheld and console) is pricing.

Wouldn't this mean Nintendo has to sell all NX games at $40 max?

Are we expecting them to do a dual release of the same games, one $40 cartridge and one $60 disc version just like Smash for 3DS / for Wii U?

What? Why would you even think that?

 

[Ansatz]

The only problem I see with the cartridge theory (i.e. the cart inside the game box works on both the handheld and console) is pricing.

Wouldn't this mean Nintendo has to sell all NX games at $40 max?

Are we expecting them to do a dual release of the same games, one $40 cartridge and one $60 disc version just like Smash for 3DS / for Wii U?

 

[darkside31337]

The main advantage to a SD card is the size factor. If the NX is an actual console / handheld one device hybrid (personally that just seems like the most logical thing to me) or just 2 separate systems that simply play the same games then its completely logical to do that.

The only problem I see with the cartridge theory (i.e. the cart inside the game box works on both the handheld and console) is pricing.

Wouldn't this mean Nintendo has to sell all NX games at $40 max?

Are we expecting them to do a dual release of the same games, one $40 cartridge and one $60 disc version just like Smash for 3DS / for Wii U?

They can just charge $60 for everything. Assuming its 2 different devices you can charge $60 and it works on both.

 

[capitalCORN]

Do you have any actual arguments for this aside from "lol cartridges"? Because this isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think it is.



I'm pretty sure the Wii U internal memory uses the same NAND tech that you'd find in an SSD.

Find me the seek and read/write numbers and then we'll talk some more.

 

[Akhe]

Good. Very good!!

 

[Vanillalite]

I'm aware. You're misunderstanding that chart, ergo go look on Amazon for the available max speeds of cards on the market. Of course Nintendo doesn't use SD Cards anyway, but you get the idea.

The problem is if you move up to UHD speed the price calculation between BR and Cart goes up even more

We already have Nintendo eating roughly $2 per cart as it is.

 

[SOR5]

ROM is pretty affordable nowadays, good call Nintendo

 

[Jebusman]

Money has been the point from the get go though?

To get a cart that is high capacity and fast enough to keep up vs going BR + HDD.

Granted if we aren't talking PS4/Xbone power and we are talking something that is more Nintendo handheld on the TV then maybe this could work out.

I'm more just speaking to how you're trying to quote an 8 year old article and posting charts without reading them to try and refute the idea of SD cards being universally a worse idea than HDDs. I mean do a little bit of research before you start trying to shut down everyone.

Now everyone is saying they can use top of the line UHD cards.

A $12 card isn't a top of the line UHD card. You wanna see a top of the line card?

https://www.amazon.com/Lexar-Professional-2000x-UHS-II-Reader/dp/B00OD71FKU?ie=UTF8&tag=05060702-20

These bad boys do like ~270MB/s sustained read. Now that's top of the line.

 

[MacTag]

that's a handheld. if nintendo release a console in 2017 using cartridges, pretty much every third party making multiplat games will let out a sensible chuckle and not release a thing on it. why would a third party spend more (because cartridges cost a good deal more than optical media) to sell on a console that's succeeding one of the biggest disasters in a while?

Well, the idea for cards is sort of predicated on NX also being a software compatible handheld in addition to the home console. From that perpective it makes some sense and the 3rd parties they'll be looking at for support (Japanese publishers, Indie publishers, Western publishers with family software) are used to using card media or going digital only.

 

[Vertti]

they're more expensive. that's the only argument needed. a third party publisher won't want to waste their money on having to use a completely different manufacturing pipeline for one console.


What? Why would you even think that?

Yeah like DS or 3DS didn't get any 3rd party support....

It also would be a only way to play many big releases on a handheld form. I think you are underestimating how big that would be.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I'm more just speaking to how you're trying to quote an 8 year old article and posting charts without reading them to try and refute the idea of SD cards being universally a worse idea than HDDs. I mean do a little bit of research before you start trying to shut down everyone.

Ok, not saying their posts are fool proof, BUT SD cards that are of an equivalent price of an optical disc are a universally worse idea. Obviously the more you spend, the better performance, but also the more cost you drive up.

Yeah like DS or 3DS didn't get any 3rd party support....

It also would be a only way to play many big releases on a handheld form. I think you are underestimating how big that would be.

christ. ok let me break it down for you, and explain how using the 3ds to deflect the point is stupid. 3ds games, especially third party ones are usually handheld only, right? so they're games SPECIFICALLY created for 3ds, so obviously they would use carts.

a multiplat game being made by Company A for release in July 2017, Company A have a pipeline to sell it on PS4, XB1 and NX. 3 home consoles. now lets just for posterity say manufacturing a BRD costs 40c. they print 1m copies of PS4 and XB1, that's what $4m dollar cost to print the discs. Carts cost what $2? I'm sure you can do the maths there. Why would a third party, releasing a multi platform game put their game on NX with carts when it costs them a HELL of a lot more just to print it to physical media?
edit: think i fucked up the maths, whatever

 

[Vanillalite]

I'm more just speaking to how you're trying to quote an 8 year old article and posting charts without reading them to try and refute the idea of SD cards being universally a worse idea than HDDs. I mean do a little bit of research before you start trying to shut down everyone.

The whole point in the last thread was Nintendo would go cheap.

And no 80 read speed isn't close to 120 read speed. If you want to debate that you can.

Plus you need a faster write speed unless you all want to wait fucking hours for shit to patch. Cause everyone said yolo the cards will just patch.

Fuck it takes fucking forever and a day to patch as it is with HDDs.

 

[capitalCORN]

ROM is pretty affordable nowadays, good call Nintendo

Compared to pennies for BD50s? If this isn't looming shades of N64 Nintendo I don't what what else. and you can bet 3rd parties will NOT be happy.

 

[Dark Cloud]

if it's not true it makes me right. cartridges won't happen for a home console.

I'm talking about the rumor of cartridges being used for NX. Now we have more evidence with Miyamoto talking about using different media in the future.

You're too deadset on cartridge prices. You're not in the business room so stop acting like you know everything. You don't know all the ins and outs or the deals being made.

 

[hemo memo]

They can just charge $60 for everything. Assuming its 2 different devices you can charge $60 and it works on both.

60$ for a handheld game?

 

[Instro]

The problem is if you move up to UHD speed the price calculation between BR and Cart goes up even more

We already have Nintendo eating roughly $2 per cart as it is.

I don't disagree on the price issue, just the premise that it isn't possible or feasible.

 

[AdanVC]

Cool! cartridges are more convenient this days than discs anyways so I look forward to this. Ready to blow them off like on the 90s!

 

[Vanillalite]

I don't disagree on the price issue, just the premise that it isn't possible or feasible.

If you can't get the price in line than that is the very essence of not feasible.

 

[MacTag]

The problem is if you move up to UHD speed the price calculation between BR and Cart goes up even more

We already have Nintendo eating roughly $2 per cart as it is.

Why are you even still using sd cards to base speed and cost on? Nintendo uses a faster/cheaper solution already, do you think they'd switch for NX?

60$ for a handheld game?

I'd pay $60 for Zelda BOTW on a handheld.

 

[Jebusman]

The whole point in the last thread was Nintendo would go cheap.

And no 80 read speed isn't close to 120 read speed. If you want to debate that you can.

Plus you need a faster write speed unless you all want to wait fucking hours for shit to patch. Cause everyone said yolo the cards will just patch.

Fuck it takes fucking forever and a day to patch as it is with HDDs.

Yes. Because when you try and download something to an HDD, the low I/O limit on writes harms it significantly. Unless your system is like, perfectly defragged 100% of the time, spinning media is going to have a fit when it has to jump across the drive. And honestly I don't know how well the consoles already handle that, I just know it becomes an absolute nightmare on Windows trying to install 100+ updates to an HDD.

It's something that, shockingly, SD cards sort of have an advantage on being in the same realm as SSDs. Because those $12 UHS-1 cards still can do 30MB/s sustained writes, and likely are choking less on random write, given the lower access time and lack of having to seek to the right area.

Like I don't disagree that the price is probably not in their favor, but from a performance standpoint I don't think the impact is as drastic (or even existent) as you think it is.

 

[big_erk]

Too big for the handheld so missing the point of carts in the first place.

Yeah, you may be right...or are you?

Edit - I'm only half serious. The Turbo Express was a beast.

 

[Pokemaniac]

they're more expensive. that's the only argument needed. a third party publisher won't want to waste their money on having to use a completely different manufacturing pipeline for one console.

The comparison starts to break down when you realize that a lot of games would need carts anyway, because there's no way the handheld is using discs. Building only a cart will generally be cheaper than a cart and a disc, especially if the two would need separate packing and stuff.

Also, I'm pretty sure 3rd parties aren't that involved in the actual manufacturing process. I'm pretty sure they'd be ordering everything through Nintendo either way.

The whole point was people said Nintendo could just use a proprietary equivalent to something like a class 10 card and come in just a tad higher than the BR option. I calculated $1.67 difference in the last thread.

Now everyone is saying they can use top of the line UHD cards.

Nintendo likely isn't using SD cards for carts. They'd be using much cheaper read-only memory.

 

[Vanillalite]

Nintendo likely isn't using SD cards for carts. They'd be using much cheaper read-only memory.

If they are read only then how are patches gonna work?

 

[blu]

The whole point was people said Nintendo could just use a proprietary equivalent to something like a class 10 card and come in just a tad higher than the BR option. I calculated $1.67 difference in the last thread.

Now everyone is saying they can use top of the line UHD cards.

You keep ignoring the fact those speeds are sequential write speeds. The current 3ds cards do 16MB/s. And that's because they needed as much to match your typical optical media BW. Nintendo will have no issue matching the current disk-based BW speeds of the competition, while doing much better latencies.

 

[Pokemaniac]

If they are read only then how are patches gonna work?

Saving patches on carts causes so many potential logistical and security issues that it really is barely worth considering. Patches would go on internal memory/USB devices/SD cards as per usual.

 

[capitalCORN]

The comparison starts to break down when you realize that a lot of games would need carts anyway, because there's no way the handheld is using discs. Building only a cart will generally be cheaper than a cart and a disc, especially if the two would need separate packing and stuff.

Also, I'm pretty sure 3rd parties aren't that involved in the actual manufacturing process. I'm pretty sure they'd be ordering everything through Nintendo either way.



Nintendo likely isn't using SD cards for carts. They'd be using much cheaper read-only memory.

So you want Nintendo to control the means of production...