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[MutFox]

The Movie was great up until Han Solo appears.
Wasn't a fan of the movie overall though.
Specifically cause technology when back in time.

They reused the vehicles from Episode 4,
and forgot about the later vehicles.
It's as if the they didn't care.
As if it were a reboot...

I have high hopes for the next film due to who's directing it.
Hope they're a true fan and evolve the galaxy the way it should have.

Have low hopes for Episode 9 due to who's directing it... :|

 

[Monocle]

So I read a bit of this and it seems Hulk is being oddly obtuse here. He can't describe Finn using the RedLetterMedia test? (That is, describe a character without referring to their appearance or occupation.) Really? "Guy discovers untapped reserves of bravery and loyalty as he learns to overcome his fear. " How's that? Or "Dude's drive for self-preservation fades in the face of true companionship and the drive to fight for justice." And I'm not even getting paid for this. Wow!

Seems like one of those cases where a critic is grasping at post hoc justifications for his lack of emotional engagement.

So much to unpack here. All the character stuff that serves as setup for future films. Rey and especially Kylo Ren... Some things Hulk flat out states aren't there are in fact directly presented, like Rey's hangups and motivations and development. But whatever.

The Movie was great up until Han Solo appears.
Wasn't a fan of the movie overall though.
Specifically cause technology when back in time.

They reused the vehicles from Episode 4,
and forgot about the later vehicles.
It's as if the they didn't care.
As if it were a reboot...

I have high hopes for the next film due to who's directing it.
Hope they're a true fan and evolve the galaxy the way it should have.

Have low hopes for Episode 9 due to who's directing it... :|

?????????

That's when it goes from great to awesome.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I don't feel like it did. She's very much a mystery. She's deliberately a mystery, her character revelation over the course of the film more or less amounts to "is a Star Wars fan". I never get a sense for what she wants besides "she wants to find Luke Skywalker because he's Luke Skywalker"

She's a mystery in terms of where she came from, why she was left on Jakku and who her parents are, but I feel that I got a pretty good grasp of her personality. We see that she is self-sufficient as she had to grow up on Jakku where it's earn your own keep or die. We see that she is very alone because of her family leaving her on this desolate planet and she longs to leave it, to go out to the galaxy and meet new people. She also gets attached to people very quickly as an effect of her isolation, hence her being so distraught at Han's death and begging Finn not to leave on Takodana. She's curious about the galaxy as she grew up hearing these amazing stories of Luke Skywalker and the Rebellion lead by Han Solo in the Millennium Falcon, along with scavenging relics of the war.

That's just my take on it. Ramblings from a guy who should've gone to bed 5 hours ago.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

JJ Abrams is a mimic. There is not a single personable thought or idea or theme that can be found in any of his work. He can imitate Spielberg like a pro, he knows what affectation he wants the audience to feel, but ultimately there is no "JJ Abrams". Its just slick impersonal imitation. And I think thats what is really at the heart of TFA and all his work, in that he doesnt have a story to tell. He knows moments, and scenes, and feelings that he knows mainstream audiences want, but he doesnt have the personal capacity to try and connect these things into a coherent narrative. And he hopes that if just goes as fast as possible, most people wont think about how most of this doesn't hold up under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

 

[jett]

His feelings really echo mine. I think I also once here on this forum that I wanted a new Star Wars to be completely different from the past, to be its own thing. Needless to say the constant nostalgia pandering in this flick didn't work for me at all.

And I find JJ to be a one note kind of a guy. How is he himself not tired of his own mysterious bullshit?

 

[The Technomancer]

JJ Abrams is a mimic. There is not a single personable thought or idea or theme that can be found in any of his work. He can imitate Spielberg like a pro, he knows what affectation he wants the audience to feel, but ultimately there is no "JJ Abrams". Its just slick impersonal imitation. And I think thats what is really at the heart of TFA and all his work, in that he doesnt have a story to tell. He knows moments, and scenes, and feelings that he knows mainstream audiences want, but he doesnt have the personal capacity to try and connect these things into a coherent narrative. And he hopes that if just goes as fast as possible, most people wont think about how most of this doesn't hold up under the slightest bit of scrutiny.

Its so frustrating, because like this piece says he's fucking amazing at casting and also beyond that he is an incredible visual director. TFA has a lot of scenes, action and non-action, that are just really well made, and its so frustrating that the movie feels stitched together out of them

 

[Plasticine]

I hear this a lot when it comes to analytical criticism, but what are you even talking about? If you don't want to read an analysis, don't read it, no need to come here and try to shit on it because you can't be asked to read the article.

I actually read a good chunk of the thing. The writing itself is overwrought and filled with unnecessary metaphor. Most of his points are based on misreadings of the movie . All delivered in a 12,000 word bloated behemoth thoughtfully divided into chapters. If that isn't being try hard, I don't know what is.

 

[Burt]

I'm usually able to find more than a few points that I disagree with in FCH's stuff, but man, he's pretty much 100% on the money here. Not that everyone didn't immediately know how much of a reference the movie was (or how JJ Abrams inexplicably still can't get over his JJ Abramsisms), but he really nails the underpinning issues in depth here.

 

[Cromwell]

The all caps gimmick makes this flat out impossible to read. Dude needed to drop that shit years ago.

I actually read a good chunk of the thing. The writing itself is overwrought and filled with unnecessary metaphor. Most of his points are based on misreadings of the movie . All delivered in a 12,000 word bloated behemoth thoughtfully divided into chapters. If that isn't being try hard, I don't know what is.

Also this. Whenever I've taken the time to de-caps his stuff it's always just ridiculously overwrought nonsense getting into the weeds about the most ridiculous stuff.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I don't know. Him stating the goal of this movie should have been to get people to forget they were watching a Star Wars movie all together makes me honestly think he is nuts. I'm trying to find some good in what he wrote, but literally the only thing I can agree with is his section about Rey and her sudden ability to use the force so damn well. Completely agreed. The rest? Yeah.... a bit over-written and not well-supported. Even for opinions.

 

[radios shipping overview]

I don't think I can disagree with any of the points made in the excerpt.

When I think about the characters, yeah, aside from Kylo they are thin, and they're lacking context. There's an overall lack of context in TFA as a whole, in JJ's Star Trek movies, in Marvel movies. I don't know if this stems from a particular school of thought about filmmaking or what makes a good blockbuster or what's internationally marketable, but these movies are continually less interested in setting an interesting stage and making characters feel like people with lives than they are with making the characters likable onscreen in an immediate sense. In fact, these movies make all concerns secondary to making whatever's onscreen fun in an immediate sense.

TFA was delightful. But was mainly just a lovingly-made confection.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

That was beautiful.

 

[Nerdkiller]

I don't think I can disagree with any of the points made in the excerpt.

When I think about the characters, yeah, aside from Kylo they are thin, and they're lacking context. There's an overall lack of context in TFA as a whole, in JJ's Star Trek movies, in Marvel movies. I don't know if this stems from a particular school of thought about filmmaking or what makes a good blockbuster or what's internationally marketable, but these movies are continually less interested in setting an interesting stage and making characters feel like people with lives than they are with making the characters likable onscreen in an immediate sense. In fact, these movies make all concerns secondary to making whatever's onscreen fun in an immediate sense.

TFA was delightful. But was mainly just a lovingly-made confection.

Oooh, well what do ya know, Hulk also made an article covering the Marvel character problem. All too invested in making a fun character instead of also a compelling one, and any attempt to steer that boat away from the fun would end up risking losing what likeability the character might have towards the audience.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/24/civil-war-spider-man-2-and-the-dangers-of-assumed-empathy

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Honestly I've found the caps tends to weed out the people who really aren't all that interested in a proper discussion of the article (which I've yet to read and will do now), and just want to take shots. Of course they just take shots at the caps lock instead.

Then nothing is actually weeded out, yar? Look at how many in this thread focusing on that instead. Look at me adding to the pile.

This is no different than somebody using as much big words as possible. It makes your writing harder to read and is completely self-serving. Of course I could expend effort to still go through it, but a dialogue starter doing that is starting it on the bad foot already. Like, it took me 15 minutes to figure out that Dehulkifier thingie. I became annoyed. I read the article while annoyed. It's not a good way to initiate a discussion.

In any case!

The core of that bloated, repetitive criticism (yes, I'm annoyed) is pretty much about the "cinematic lying" thing and I actually somewhat agree, even though I am not as negative about it.

I always has this feeling that J. J. Abrams somehow approaches his movies like an episode of a TV series. So where's that behavior comes from? Context is from a previous episode. How exactly does that happen? Explanation pending in another episode. Even if those episodes don't really exist. His characterizations and interactions tend to hint at various layers and extensive history we don't really get to see, and he makes it work by gathering fitting actors that can exude charisma and energy to sell the moments. The rest is up to viewer's imagination.

I think that's a valid way of storytelling. Maybe it's not a perfect thing, but it's a good, enjoyable thing to me.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Hulk verbalized everything I felt was wrong with the movie and more. I really wasn't in the moment with the movie and I wanted to be.

And LOL at "Your son just shot up a school" part.

 

[-griffy-]

I always has this feeling that J. J. Abrams approaches his movies like an episode of a TV series. So where's that motivation comes from? It's from a previous episode. How exactly does that happen? Explanation pending in another episode.

His characterizations and interactions tend to hint at various layers and extensive history we don't really get to see, and he makes it work with an assortment of really good actors that expend charisma and energy to sell the moments. The rest is up to viewer's imagination. I think that's a valid way of storytelling. Maybe it's not a perfect thing, but it's a good thing to me.

That's an interesting observation when you realize that every movie Abrams has directed, save for Super 8, is an installment in a long running franchise with literal decades of history, which are all designed to lead into sequels continuing the story past his involvement.

 

[brandonh83]

That's an interesting observation when you realize that every movie Abrams has directed, save for Super 8, is an installment in a long running franchise with literal decades of history, which are all designed to lead into sequels continuing the story past his involvement.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with it setting up mysteries and stuff. It just makes me anticipate the next ones more, which is the idea. It'd be one thing if the mysteries weren't interesting, but I find them to be.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

he really captures my feelings about TFA

:x

 

[Herne]

Caps, caps, caps!

No thank you.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

 

[yanipheonu]

So. I think we've discovered one of the most obnoxious writing styles ever.

Though we could make things worse by making it in Second Person and having the writer refer to themselves with the royal We.

 

[heliosRAzi]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

I don't think that's unfair at all. ME3's ending was trash.


But maybe he learned from it.

 

[Monocle]

I don't think that's unfair at all. ME3's ending was trash.


But maybe he learned from it.

The blue ending concluded things more or less how I wanted tbh.

 

[Cromwell]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

Oh my god, I had no idea he said that. What a total fool.

 

[CharminUltra]

Star Yawns: The Forc... zzzzz

 

[The Technomancer]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

If it helps he's since said that he's backed off of video game criticism because he feels he has a clear ignorance of the medium that led to him interpreting a lot of that differently from the rest of the audience

 

[anaron]

Film Crit Hulk's formatting quirks don't bother me at all tbh. He's generally insightful and articulate.

Yup.

People who dismiss his usually really well written, insightful pieces "cuz caps lock!!" are far more annoying than the format.

 

[Ralemont]

He's right about Rey but wrong about Finn. There's never a moment where you don't understand Finn's motivation. That means he has a describable, defined character.

But yeah, Rey just gets better at the Force for no particular reason. Unless they are setting her up to turn Dark side she hasnt yet had any internal struggle or failures to make me care. Meanwhile Finn facing down Kylo knowing he'd probably lose was great, because it capped his character arc.

We've got two more movies for Rey to become a character so they have time. I don't agree with Hulk that this is just punting to the next movie, because this movie developed Kylo and Finn well.

 

[Toxi]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

Well he is Film Critic Hulk, not Video Game Critic Hulk. Give him some slack.

He's done some interesting shit, but he often falls into the same patterns. Films he likes are "honest". Films he doesn't are "liars/frauds/phonies". It's not uncommon to see him say a movie is technically accomplished visually but hollow in vision. It's not uncommon for him to praise a movie he does like by talking about how "truthful" it is to getting to some core emotional part of the human existence. But if a bad movie tries for the same thing, it's about how "fake" its attempt is.

Basically, too much nonsense about authorial intent. It's practically a given that any criticism of him will include conclusions about the director's mindset these days. Sometimes he can actually provide really good justification for these arguments, like in his Kingsmen defense. But he does it so often it gets tiresome.

 

[Future Foundation]

This is really unfair of me, but I have never been able to take FCH's criticisms on the basis of earned emotion 100% seriously after he said that Mass Effect 3's ending was poetic and articulate and everyone who didn't like it was spitting in the face of art.

That is such a strong, way-out-there stance to take, it almost feels like it's a joke.

 

[Takyon]

Yeah I agree with a lot of the stuff in there.

One thing I don't think he mentioned was the republic homeworlds being blown up just to inflate the threat of the enemy.
Billions of innocent men, women and children wiped out and the the movie just kinda shrugs it off.

This isn't really a criticism of the Star Wars films, but I find it strange how the villains are a combination of technologically advanced quasi-nazi fascists and dark space wizards. I'm not really sure what that's trying to say thematically.

 

[Ralemont]

That is such a strong, way-out-there stance to take, it almost feels like it's a joke.

Well remember a lot of fans were demanding bioware change the ending. You can imagine how that could set someone like Hulk off.

 

[-griffy-]

Well he is Film Critic Hulk, not Video Game Critic Hulk. Give him some slack.

He's done some interesting shit, but he often falls into the same patterns. Films he likes are "honest". Films he doesn't are "liars/frauds/phonies". It's not uncommon to see him say a movie is technically accomplished visually but hollow in vision. It's not uncommon for him to praise a movie he does like by talking about how "truthful" it is to getting to some core emotional part of the human existence. But if a bad movie tries for the same thing, it's about how "fake" its attempt is.

Basically, too much nonsense about authorial intent. It's basically a given that any criticism of him will include conclusions about the director's mindset these days.

You know, his writing tends to fall into that Devin Faraci area where if you already agree with the thesis you kind of nod your head along as you read and go "Yeah, exactly right," and if you don't agree with the thesis the writing makes you think "What the fuck? No dude, it's like you aren't even trying" to the point that you almost feel personally insulted as it goes on. Writing that breeds contradictory feelings in a way that makes me question how insightful it actually is. Like, I can read an Alan Sepinwall piece that is complete antithesis to my own opinion but still get something out of it and understand his point of view and why he arrived at it, for example, but I'll hit sentence number two on a Film Crit Hulk piece and nope out of it. So I suppose it's fitting that it found a home on Birth.Movies.Death.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

I don't know. His format kind of bugs me but what kills me is how each of his essays are like five times longer than they have any right to be and he takes his sweet time getting to the point.

 

[diaspora]

Yeah I agree with a lot of the stuff in there.

One thing I don't think he mentioned was the republic homeworlds being blown up just to inflate the threat of the enemy.
Billions of innocent men, women and children wiped out and the the movie just kinda shrugs it off.

This isn't really a criticism of the Star Wars films, but I find it strange how the villains are a combination of technologically advanced quasi-nazi fascists and dark space wizards. I'm not really sure what that's trying to say thematically.

Meanwhile one planet- Malachor V gets destroyed and it becomes the focal point of the greatest Star Wars story ever told.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Here's the example I always use, and like Hulk talks about, a lot of it comes down to small moments that are missing. In the original film, Luke has that famous line "I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters."

Its one line, but it instantly provides all the context we need for "Luke is a decent shot"

In contrast, TFA feels lacking in anything that contextualizes character skill and background that way. Rey's background is so much of a mystery. All they needed was a similar "I've helped Gardjo-enwik run cross planet deliveries, but nothing like this!" to give us some context for how Rey has any idea how to pilot a spaceship and it would do so much

I actually mostly agree with this post but the point of that line is "Luke grew up in a terrifying world where enormously large rats are commonplace"

 

[brandonh83]

You know, his writing tends to fall into that Devin Faraci area where if you already agree with the thesis you kind of nod your head along as you read and go "Yeah, exactly right," and if you don't agree with the thesis the writing makes you think "What the fuck? No dude, it's like you aren't even trying" to the point that you almost feel personally insulted as it goes on. Writing that breeds contradictory feelings in a way that makes me question how insightful it actually is. Like, I can read an Alan Sepinwall piece that is complete antithesis to my own opinion but still get something out of it and understand his point of view and why he arrived at it, for example, but I'll hit sentence number two on a Film Crit Hulk piece and nope out of it. So I suppose it's fitting that it found a home on Birth.Movies.Death.

Like I said before, the piece is regurgitating things that have been talked about already for the past seven months. If I wrote a piece about how I think Rey is a "Mary Sue" (I don't) it would just come across as though I just cherry picked the same redundant arguments found on message boards. That's what this feels like to me.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Like I said before, the piece is regurgitating things that have been talked about already for the past seven months. If I wrote a piece about how I think Rey is a "Mary Sue" (I don't) it would just come across as though I just cherry picked the same redundant arguments found on message boards. That's what this feels like to me.

A lot of pieces I've come across lately have felt like this.

I need to find better writers.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

The problem with Abrams is that he doesn't bother to give the few new ideas that he comes up with any depth at all.

The movie could have shown the effects of how Finn was trained by the First Order for so long. He could have been awkward, he could have had trouble knowing what to do outside of the duties that he used to have, he could have even had trouble calling people by their names instead of their designations. He wouldn't need to have had those problems for the whole movie, even one scene or one line of dialogue would have been better than nothing. Instead, he's a normal, charming guy who has no real problem adjusting to anything once he's out.

Same with Kylo Ren. There could have been a hint of something interesting that led him to the dark side, but he was just "seduced" to it by a guy named Snoke. Yeah, okay. That's really something I'd like to learn about in a sequel. A New Hope was similarly vague at times, but it was vague in a way that made me want to know more.

 

[Toxi]

You know, his writing tends to fall into that Devin Faraci area where if you already agree with the thesis you kind of nod your head along as you read and go "Yeah, exactly right," and if you don't agree with the thesis the writing makes you think "What the fuck? No dude, it's like you aren't even trying" to the point that you almost feel personally insulted as it goes on. Writing that breeds contradictory feelings in a way that makes me question how insightful it actually is. Like, I can read an Alan Sepinwall piece that is complete antithesis to my own opinion but still get something out of it and understand his point of view and why he arrived at it, for example, but I'll hit sentence number two on a Film Crit Hulk piece and nope out of it. So I suppose it's fitting that it found a home on Birth.Movies.Death.

He's done a few articles I've disagreed with but still found interesting (Kingsmen defense comes to mind), but lately I've just been noticing the patterns more often. Even the articles I previously enjoyed become a lot less interesting once it starts to seem like he's on autopilot.

 

[firehawk12]

So I read a bit of this and it seems Hulk is being oddly obtuse here. He can't describe Finn using the RedLetterMedia test? (That is, describe a character without referring to their appearance or occupation.) Really? "Guy discovers untapped reserves of bravery and loyalty as he learns to overcome his fear. " How's that? Or "Dude's drive for self-preservation fades in the face of true companionship and the drive to fight for justice." And I'm not even getting paid for this. Wow!

Finn, and really any of the new characters, have no inherently distinguishing characteristics or qualities though. If you tell me that Finn is supposed to "brave", that really isn't a quality that I immediately associate with him. Because by that measure, basically everyone is "brave".

 

[WrenchNinja]

Wrong on Mass Effect, wrong on Star Wars, wrong on everything

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Yup.

People who dismiss his usually really well written, insightful pieces "cuz caps lock!!" are far more annoying than the format.

Which is a direct response to the format the FCH intentionally chooses; he could very easily resolve that as the gimmick adds nothing. I don't think a poster would last too long around these parts if they chose a similar format, and they certainly wouldn't be respected.

At any rate, I've slogged through his article and it's not even that particularly well written, even if I agree with his points--which I've also found articulated far better and less annoyingly elsewhere--including on this very board.

 

[Toxi]

Same with Kylo Ren. There could have been a hint of something interesting that led him to the dark side, but he was just "seduced" to it by a guy named Snoke. Yeah, okay. That's really something I'd like to learn about in a sequel. A New Hope was similarly vague at times, but it was vague in a way that made me want to know more.

Kylo Ren wasn't seduced by the dark side at all. "Seduced" implies he was somehow tricked or eased into it. Kylo Ren is an asshole who joined the Dark Side to feel more important, despite being given so many opportunities.

That's because Kylo Ren isn't Darth Vader. He's a very deliberate anti-Vader.

Vader was seduced by the dark side with good intentions. Kylo Ren deliberately resists his better intentions so he can be a big bad nazi like Darth Vader.

Vader wears a mask because he needs a life support system, and he literally can't survive without them. Kylo Ren wears a mask so he can look less like a weedy kid and more like big bad Darth Vader.

Vader is collected and in control, showing no cracks even as he methodically strangles an underling. Kylo Ren can't go two seconds without getting angry and impotently smashing whatever's in arm's reach.

Vader is eventually redeemed by the trust his son has in him. Kylo Ren takes advantage of his father's trust to stab him in the gut.

Vader crushes the hero physically and emotionally in their first lightsaber battle. Kylo Ren gets crushed physically and emotionally at the end of the movie.

 

[kame-sennin]

Yeah JJ doesn't know how to tell a coherent story and it's really really frustrating.

 

[Toxi]

Finn, and really any of the new characters, have no inherently distinguishing characteristics or qualities though. If you tell me that Finn is supposed to "brave", that really isn't a quality that I immediately associate with him. Because by that measure, basically everyone is "brave".

Again, not really.

Finn's insecure and socially awkward. He's very childish in his worldview and mannerisms, often not thinking of the ultimate results of his actions or going to emotional extremes. He puts a lot of value on relationships with people who do connect with him, to the point that said relationships eventually overcome his cowardice.

Finn is a perfectly well-defined character by Star Wars standards. He's even got practically the same story beat as Han in a New Hope with abandoning the heroes because of his character flaw and then coming back.

 

[brandonh83]

Yeah JJ doesn't know how to tell a coherent story and it's really really frustrating.

What about it isn't coherent?

 

[Toxi]

What about it isn't coherent?

I thought blowing up random planet we've never seen before that looks like Coruscant was pretty incoherent. The entire Starkiller Base firing sequence really feels like an artifact of a time when there were scenes actually giving us reasons to care about its threat.

 

[brandonh83]

I thought blowing up random planet we've never seen before that looks like Coruscant was pretty incoherent.

I'm so confused.

 

[Toxi]

I'm so confused.

That one planet Starkiller Base blew up with a closer shot of the people.