PeskyToaster
Member
People complain about having to turn off their brains for movies but then also want the movie to directly explain the full context of everything on screen.
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Film Crit Hulk: STAR WARS: THE FORCE ALLUDED TO
- Thread starter Nerdkiller
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Slightly off topic, but I've never bought the idea that Lucas wrote and directed Star Wars like he was planning a trilogy (let alone 3 trilogies).
Yeah, he said he did, but Lucas says a lot of things. I mean, it wouldn't shock me if he had a vague idea that it might be cool to do a trilogy or whatever, I don't see anything in that movie that made me think it was made as a non-standalone film.
You can argue that having Darth Vader survive is a setup for a sequel, but I just thought it was a callback to the Flash Gordon-esque serials Star Wars was inspired by, where the bad guy often manage to escape at the last moment (so they can be available for the next chapter).
The answer to every "why would, why did, this happen" question can simply be answered that the script was bad.
Crap I was not going to be snarky about this film. But I always fall for these threads
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I think they're asking for any drama. Or any coherent character motivation besides characters who literally think Star Wars is cool, or whatever the hell Han and Leia's weird characterization about their son is
It's not the same at all though. Alderaan's destruction is not just to show how powerful the Empire is, it resonates with the viewer. The main heroes were heading towards it to get answers (and ended up in the middle of the remains of the planet instead) and Leia, even though she hardly mentions it afterwards, spends an entire scene begging Grand Moff Tarkin to not harm Alderaan's people. Even though we spent zero time on the planet, we know something about it's people and we know it's an important planet to our heroes. Compare that to Hosnian Prime, which we knew nothing about except that it was apparently the central system of the Republic.
It's pretty obvious that Star Wars (later renamed A New Hope) was written as a stand alone film. It was only after it's success that George Lucas started thinking about the bigger picture.
Cymbal Head
Banned
Read his piece on tangible details. It has helped me contextualize a lot of film discussion and it's also pretty central to Hulk's overall MO.
https://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/...tangible-details-and-the-nature-of-criticism/
You know I don't always care for Film Crit Hulk because I find he tends to turn into Harry Knowles from Aint It Cool News with how he writes. He's not nearly as bad as Harry but there are moments where he is rambling in what seems like an incoherent manner. Guy could probably use an editor then again hat might stifle the fire in him. Still I agree with him on a lot of things about TFA, I felt it was a decent popcorn movie but overall it was a bit rote overall and confused on how it wanted to handle the transition from old to new. I also felt the new cast was not very well developed or all that interesting.
Yep. Unless your film is experimental in nature, answering the "why, what, how" questions should be vital to any script.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Alderaan is the stated goal for Luke and Obi. It's where they need to take the plans. And this was established near the beginning of the movie. They end up recruiting Han because they need a way to get to Alderaan. Once it is blown up, we and the heroes are left thinking: what the hell now? It's a HUGE setback for them.
Hosnian getting destroyed isn't a setback and it was introduced right before it was destroyed. It's just a reclarification of the First Order's evilness.
I enjoyed the movie, but I know it has its flaws. It has many similiarities to the original films and that's understandable to me if the purpose of this was to make something more identifiably and comfortably "Star Wars" to get people back on board after the awful prequels. Doesn't make it right or good, but I can see it as a self-imposed handicap instead of just a lazy misfire.
Then again, another death star? Really??!?
Still, I thought it was great fun, certainly a few notches better than the majority of superhero blockbusters we've been seeing these past few years, and, in that respect, deserving of its massive (financial) success.
On Rey and her skills: It doesn't bug me that Rey can pilot the Falcon, but damn how can she do it so damn well?!? If she is a Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi, that could explain it. Or it's the Force? With her amazing and rapidly accelerating Force talents, I can think of a couple explanations. One, the movie is called The Force Awakens, maybe Rey is a prodigy on a level never before seen, or at least never seen in centuries, or millennia. Her skills could be a result of the equivalent of, like, a solar flare in the Force or something. The other option is that, given the mystery of her origins, maybe she is trained and doesn't remember. Or maybe she is trained and does remember, but is playing some sort of long con. Either way, her skills are not necessarily the best idea from a storytelling perspective, but I think too few people give the benefit of the doubt and instead assume the filmmakers gave no thought whatsoever to how the Force works, how it has worked in past films, and how it could work in future films. I bet they have, just saying.
Now, this Hulk guy is hard to read for me, but I've read a few of his reviews in the past, and he seems to know what's up. But this:
BUT WHAT'S HER TRUE WANT? WHAT'S STOPPING HER FROM ADVENTURE? WHAT IS SHE FAILING AT? WHAT'S HER FLAW? WHAT DOES THAT FAILURE OR REALIZATION ALLOW HER TO DO AT THE END OF THE MOVIE THAT SHE COULD NEVER DO AT THE BEGINNING?
This makes me think he didn't pay attention. Her true want is her family, waiting for her family is stopping her from adventure, her flaw is being afraid to move forward with her life and her potential and being able to let go of the past, she realizes this and at the end of the movie she moves forward to train with
instead of going back to Jakku to do nothing but wait again.
I'm just saying, if you're gonna write up a long-assed review, in character and in all caps no less, then pay attention to the fucking movie.
Then again, another death star? Really??!?
Still, I thought it was great fun, certainly a few notches better than the majority of superhero blockbusters we've been seeing these past few years, and, in that respect, deserving of its massive (financial) success.
On Rey and her skills: It doesn't bug me that Rey can pilot the Falcon, but damn how can she do it so damn well?!? If she is a Solo/Skywalker/Kenobi, that could explain it. Or it's the Force? With her amazing and rapidly accelerating Force talents, I can think of a couple explanations. One, the movie is called The Force Awakens, maybe Rey is a prodigy on a level never before seen, or at least never seen in centuries, or millennia. Her skills could be a result of the equivalent of, like, a solar flare in the Force or something. The other option is that, given the mystery of her origins, maybe she is trained and doesn't remember. Or maybe she is trained and does remember, but is playing some sort of long con. Either way, her skills are not necessarily the best idea from a storytelling perspective, but I think too few people give the benefit of the doubt and instead assume the filmmakers gave no thought whatsoever to how the Force works, how it has worked in past films, and how it could work in future films. I bet they have, just saying.
Now, this Hulk guy is hard to read for me, but I've read a few of his reviews in the past, and he seems to know what's up. But this:
BUT WHAT'S HER TRUE WANT? WHAT'S STOPPING HER FROM ADVENTURE? WHAT IS SHE FAILING AT? WHAT'S HER FLAW? WHAT DOES THAT FAILURE OR REALIZATION ALLOW HER TO DO AT THE END OF THE MOVIE THAT SHE COULD NEVER DO AT THE BEGINNING?
This makes me think he didn't pay attention. Her true want is her family, waiting for her family is stopping her from adventure, her flaw is being afraid to move forward with her life and her potential and being able to let go of the past, she realizes this and at the end of the movie she moves forward to train with
Luke
I'm just saying, if you're gonna write up a long-assed review, in character and in all caps no less, then pay attention to the fucking movie.
VeryGooster
Banned
I'll say despite enjoying the movie fine I do agree with the idea that Abrams feels in a rush to get us to the next arc without letting time to gel.
Also that "DeHulkifier" bookmarklet does not work for me for whatever reason.
Also that "DeHulkifier" bookmarklet does not work for me for whatever reason.
I'm not familiar with the Hulk but some of his points seem valid.
Oh fuck him then.
Oh fuck him then.
Jest Chillin
Member
CloudWolf said:
You're giving way too much credit to viewers who pay attention to nothing but large explosions and ignoring viewers who will Devils' Advocate every position a movie presents unless it's distinctly expressed. There are people who legitimately suggest that Palpatines Empire was good for the Universe and the Rebels were evil for destroying him.
Hux's speech was visually and thematically designed to evoke Nazi Germany for a reason. To leave absolutely zero doubt that the First Order is evil. That's why His gives the speech and fires the weapon. So Kylo can still retain the image of internal conflict and the possibility of redemption.
No, that's not the #1 reason. Something needs to happen to both raise the stakes and unite our protags with their valuable allies. That's why it happens. Then when it does happen, JJ makes certain It's clear that this faction is not at all the "good." There is no ambiguity in that or them. It's written in a way to evoke a similarity to Alderaan but that's not why it's there in the movie.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Only partway through, but his critique of Abrams and what his movies are doing is just so spot on for me.
But watching TFA felt like an annoying kid made a Star Wars film and was elbowing me every couple of minutes to go "see, see huh? Star Wars, amirite?"
Here's the thing. I don't want to completely forget that I'm watching a Star Wars movie.
But watching TFA felt like an annoying kid made a Star Wars film and was elbowing me every couple of minutes to go "see, see huh? Star Wars, amirite?"
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah. I'm not sure why we need a bunch of information about each planet just because they're getting blown up. Leia says a few things about Alderaan but it's basically "it's peaceful!" yet that's apparently enough? Alrighty then. For me it's like... planets getting blown up... billions of people and things dying, yeah I mean, that's bad. I didn't really need details to "care."
It's not that people don't give a shit. It's that it's telling a story and we're following certain people, who did react to it and are now acting on it. Starkiller was going to keep wiping out Republic planets, and the Resistance base planet was next. You don't stop to have some mournful ceremony when you're on a time limit.
That's not a good thing in the original Star Wars film either. A more egregious issue is with Finn defecting over the death of his Stormtrooper friend and then goes right to killing his fellow Stormtroopers less than 10 minutes later. There's a lack of continuity to the film that causes a lot of the plot issues.
To reiterate what others have been saying...seems like HULK really doesn't understand Star Wars. Most of his issues with the movie are applicable to the OT. Movie is not without its flaws...but the task it was presented was nearly impossible and it made much of it seem effortless. Star Wars has always been more about emotional content and in that respect force awakens did great.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's not about having details about the planet, it's about why we should care about those planets other than it just being populated planets. There's nothing really there to make the viewers care about it being destroyed (or even remember their names).
We barely know anything about Alderaan, but it was the main characters' initial destination. If they had gotten to Alderaan, everything would've been solved. But then it gets destroyed and we're left thinking what the hell are they going to do now?
It's like the Green Place in Mad Max Fury Road. It was Furiosa's goal. Get the girls there and everything will be alright. But they realize the Green Place was destroyed a long time ago. And we were left thinking, what the hell are they going to do now?
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
From what I've read of his writing, it usually boils down to "like movie = deep and good" / "dislike movie = shallow and bad".
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Exactly. There's no time for a ten minute soliloquy about how distraught our heroes are in a Star Wars movie. It's about pew pew action revolving around the most disfunctional family in the universe. I didn't need to know every (or any) of the people who died due to Starkiller. Seeing the horror on their faces as they faced inescapable doom was more than enough.
Honesty, there was more pathos on display surrounding the splintering of the Solo family and the demise of its patriarch than there was in ANH with the death of Obi Wan, or in ROTJ when Yoda died, or in ROTS when Mace Windu was killed.
But because someone who can't figure out how Caps Lock works wrote a review that said there wasn't enough depth to the emotion, it must be true.
Finn was raised a soldier, so killing wasn't what turned him away from the path of being a Stormtrooper. It was the taking of innocent life.
Since the movie went to some lengths to display the New Order as a type of Space Nazi group, consider a person being drafted into the Nazi Youth growing up and defecting to the Allies once he discovers that the Nazis aren't about protection of the homeland so much as they are about the wholesale slaughter of unarmed innocents.
UnemployedVillain
Member
That only supports his point. No one cares about people playing devil's advocate, because they do it to be contrarian, regardless of what is shown
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Alderaan was a destination from a story point of view, but there was zero emotional attachment to its destruction. When it was destroyed, it wasn't like "oh fuck. I can't believe they did that." The viewer felt no sense of loss at the death of billions. Our heroes just moved on to Plan B. Which, in this type of movie, is to be expected.
In Fury Road, the entire first three quarters of the movie depends solely on the protagonists reaching the Green Place. When we find out it no longer exists, we feel a sense of loss because we know that in a world of nothing, it was a place of something.
Alderaan was treated as just another causality in the war among the stars. No big loss. Just an inconvenience.
brandonh83
Banned
It's just stuff I can gather through logic. I also typically dislike "mourning" scenes or whatever, especially when there's more matters at hand. It's just not a thing I think about. We even saw directly the people and city of one of the planets, which is more than we saw of Alderaan
You saw the people absolutely terrified so if anything I felt that a bit more than Alderaan tbh.Food for thought for research papers then?
She's a woman with no family and no one who gave a damn about her who was stranded on a horrible planet and fought for everything she'd ever gotten and yet never lost her decency or compassion.
Compared to Luke who was a bratty teenager and Anakin who was the chosen one she's by far the best character of the three in terms of complexity.
But yeah, Mary Sue.
Glass Shark
Banned
Not any more or less than Luke's character from Star Wars.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, I don't get the problem with Rey at all. She's the most interesting protagonist so far to me. I think people just associate JJ with mystery but you're not going to find me complaining about a storyteller that is actually trying to tell something intriguing. If you don't find it intriguing that's fine, but after what this movie gave me in terms of her character, I'm really excited to find out what it's all about.
The prequels were one thing but now I just feel like people want to hate the fuck out of Star Wars.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Or Han. Or Obi. Or Leia. Or Vader.
I'd argue our heroes and main villain (not Snoke, who we know nothing about) in TFA are infinitely more interesting and deep than the off-the-shelf archetypes on display in ANH (and honestly, with regard to Vader and Han, through most of the original trilogy).
Jest Chillin
Member
No one cares until it's used as a criticism and is the cause of debate. You not caring doesn't mean it doesn't serve a valid purpose.
brandonh83
Banned
Now now, we don't have to bash on the older good movies to defend this one
I don't disagree at all though.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Now now, we don't have to bash on the older good movies to defend this one
I don't disagree at all though.
Oh believe me, I love the original trilogy, despite its flaws. Just like TFA.
brandonh83
Banned
If I have any problems with TFA it's that I think the second act could have been a bit longer, more fleshed out. It does start moving a little too fast, but it's more of a nitpick and I appreciate that it does move.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Alderaan was a big loss because it was an inconvenience, but that's a weak word for what it was. Alderaan was Luke's and Obi's goal and, therefore, our goal. If they arrived to Alderaan, it would have solved everything in the movie, but then the rug is pulled out from under them right before the arrive. The viewer is left thinking "Oh crap. What now?" when Alderaan is destroyed. It's the turning point for ANH, when the heroes are setback quite a ways and have to work their way through this problem. They come up with plan B, but it was improvised. It was thought up in the moment when they realize that Leia's on the Death Star. Yeah, it's an inconvenience, but stories are all filled with inconveniences.
Alderaan being destroyed works better than Hosnian being destroyed because it serves the story. Hosnian is tangential to the story. Does Rey have anything to do with Hosnian? Does Finn? Or Han? Or Kylo? It's just a nebulous government out there which we barely get a sense of. Those planets don't get introduced until right before they're destroyed and only get named after they're destroyed. That's bad storytelling. If it were Jakku or Coruscant, its destruction would have had more weight, but as it is, it's just a wet fart.
Messofanego
Banned
Have to agree. All in all, Force Awakens was just another brick in the blockbuster wall. Enjoyable in the moment, forgettable in the after. Because of the nostalgia, I didn't find much memorable or interesting. I don't think I found any scene particularly impressive that I'd want to watch again unlike Mad Max or other great blockbusters of the past few years. Maybe because I'm not a Star Wars fan but I found the complete black and white in morality baffling like it was a cartoon, and the character motivations felt just driven by the plot than having internal struggles or giving you insight into their psyche other than Emo Kylo.
JJ Abrams has still to match Mission Impossible 3 cause everything after has been lukewarm for me.
JJ Abrams has still to match Mission Impossible 3 cause everything after has been lukewarm for me.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
From a story point of view, sure Alderaan was more important. From an emotional standpoint, I absolutely disagree. We know nothing of Alderaan other than it's a peaceful planet and plays a role in the Rebellion. We also know nothing of Hosnian other than it's a peaceful planet and plays a role in the Resistance. They're on equal footing in that regard.
Separation comes from how important each is to its characters (Alderaan wins there because it was Leia's home) and the emotion brought about by the destruction of each (Hosnian wins there, because we at least get to see the desperation on the faces of its doomed inhabitants and gain a sense of powerlessness against the New Order, versus Leia going "sob" and everyone moving on).
Neither was really used as the fulcrum upon which the movies' story turned (especially from an emotional point of view), and neither was used as a major emotional touchstone. They both make the viewer/characters say "oh poopy" and the story continues.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Not sure how else to describe it besides an "inconvenience," but yeah.
The reality is that the destruction of Alderaan is plot significant, and while not dripping in sentimentality, still feels weighty. You can't remove it and have ANH.
The difference with TFA is that you could however remove the planetary destruction within the movie and nothing would be different. I'd still be well aware of who the "bad guys" are, and you wouldn't have wasted my time with some goofy disaster porn shots. I couldn't give less of a shit about those people, while at least we know that there were some people to mourn on Alderaan.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah, the Alderaan population was very well developed and characterized, so I definitely cared when it was destroyed, compared to these insignificant people on the Hosnian system planets.
Finn defects because he wants to not die, not because he's friends with a faceless Stormtrooper.
I'm not sure why so many people misread that scene. You look at Finn's face, is he grieving? No, he's fucking terrified (and horrified by the slaughter of civilians, which unlike his supposed Stormtrooper friend he actually brings up later on). His entire character arc is about him overcoming that initial fear for his life and embracing his better side.
heliosRAzi
Banned
ANHs story continues because of Alderaan's destruction while TFAs story continues on despite Hosnian's destruction. Alderaan was important to Luke and Obi, too, not just Leia. Their stated goal was to get the plans to Alderaan, but then it gets destroyed, therefore they must rescue the princess and have her take them to the rebel base. The story changes because of Alderaan's destruction.
Hosnian, on the other hand, is nothing. It doesn't affect Rey or Finn in any real way. The fulcrum for TFA was Rey being taken, not Hosnian's destruction. Alderaan is much more important to ANH's story than Hosnian's is to TFA. Yeah, you get to see people on Hosnian before it's destroyed, but who are they? Why do they matter to the main characters? Why do they matter to us? To me, it's just cheap emotional manipulation. It wasn't earned.
brandonh83
Banned
Right, it spooks him, and he doesn't agree with the murdering of innocents. It's not because he's best buds with them.
I cannot get behind this. The Resistance acted on Starkiller base because they just destroyed a bunch of planets integral to the Republic and were targeting them next. It was the "oh shit, they can do that, we need to fight this ASAP" moment. The rest of the movie absolutely plays out in that way because of what Starkiller did and can do. Kylo kidnaps Rey and takes her there, which is integral for Finn's motive to go there, even more so than to destroy it-- he does it for her.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I cared at the very least because they were plot significant.
Whereas the Hosnian system has all the importance of a mild case of flatulence.
That's not a ringing endorsement of how Alderaan is used in ANH by the way. It's just markedly better than TFA
heliosRAzi
Banned
I would say vexatious. But yeah, Alderaan is plot-important. Hosnian isn't. It wasn't even named until after it was destroyed.
That's another thing: integral how? Up until that Nazi speech, we had no idea about Hosnian or a real sense of how the New Republic fits into things. It's a nebulous entity. The movie was telling instead of showing. Clearly, the whole sequence was to demonstrate the power of the Starkiller base, which it did effectively, but that's the only thing it did. You could switch Hosnian with almost any other planetary system and get the same effect. Alderaan being destroyed did the same thing for the Death Star, but also shifted the story for the movie.
brandonh83
Banned
I don't know, I actually saw a bunch of people that died in the Hosnian destruction. I get what you're saying about plot relation, but the Hosnian destruction is also plot related. It was a blow to the Republic and set the rest of the events of the movie up, and on a time limit, much like Yavin.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
One thing I think this whole comparison between the destructions of Hosnian and Alderaan is missing is the utility of each scene to its story and characters.
Alderaan is meant to be the major emotional core of ANH (I'd still argue they did a fairly poor job at making the viewer care though) and one of the turning points of the plot.
The destruction of Hosnian isn't meant to be that. The purpose of that scene begins and ends at displaying the power and reach of the New Order. It's not like Abrams was thinking "I'm going to make everyone cry when they see this part. Oh shit, I forgot to add parts that would make people care. Derp."
It's almost a reverse of the deaths shown in each movie. The point of Obi's death was to give our heroes motivation to fight, to show how evil the bad guy was, and to move the plot along, but there was zero emotional weight to it.
Meanwhile, the death of Han served every purpose that the death of Obi did from a motivation and characterization point of view, but it was also the emotional core of the movie.
Tldr; Alderaan was meant to be the emotional scene; Hosnian wasn't. Han's death was meant to be the emotional scene; Obi's wasn't. Similar plot points, different purposes.
Alderaan is meant to be the major emotional core of ANH (I'd still argue they did a fairly poor job at making the viewer care though) and one of the turning points of the plot.
The destruction of Hosnian isn't meant to be that. The purpose of that scene begins and ends at displaying the power and reach of the New Order. It's not like Abrams was thinking "I'm going to make everyone cry when they see this part. Oh shit, I forgot to add parts that would make people care. Derp."
It's almost a reverse of the deaths shown in each movie. The point of Obi's death was to give our heroes motivation to fight, to show how evil the bad guy was, and to move the plot along, but there was zero emotional weight to it.
Meanwhile, the death of Han served every purpose that the death of Obi did from a motivation and characterization point of view, but it was also the emotional core of the movie.
Tldr; Alderaan was meant to be the emotional scene; Hosnian wasn't. Han's death was meant to be the emotional scene; Obi's wasn't. Similar plot points, different purposes.
brandonh83
Banned
I would also argue that the Hosnian destruction came out of absolutely nowhere for the characters. We follow Rey's POV mostly and kind of learn things as she does. There's no real reason for them to start talking about the various Republican planets until Starkiller blows them away. With Alderaan, Tarkin was using it to flush information out of Leia, so there was some talk about it before it was destroyed.
It makes sense in either context.
It makes sense in either context.
heliosRAzi
Banned
That's why it feels cheap. It doesn't really matter to our POV character, so why should it matter to us? How does Hosnian's destruction affect her? Does it set her back in her goals?
brandonh83
Banned
I don't really think that just because it doesn't directly affect the main character that it's a negative. She's just now being introduced to all of this stuff.
Luke had no emotional ties to Alderaan. He was just going there because of the droids. When it was destroyed, it was like oh well, and the plot totally shifted gears after that.
heliosRAzi
Banned
So was Luke.
What if she had set out to find her parents and she got a good tip that they were on Hosnian? That would've been better than just nothing at all.
brandonh83
Banned
That would considerably change things, and become about how Rey is distraught because she thinks her parents were killed, which changes the emotional perspective. It's not about that. I get what you're saying, I just don't need for the main character to directly have emotional ties to a planet in order for it to feel significant. I saw some of the people just before they died and they were horrified. It also crippled the Republic/Resistance, of which Rey is now a part of. It also set up for the third act.
I don't get the problem with that, especially using Alderaan to criticize it, but that's alright I guess.
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