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[Angel_DvA]

J. J. Abrams was/is a Yes man with no artistic vision and TFA isn't as good as people make it to but I don't think it was a terrible movie either, only Kylo Ren looks really interesting though, I hope VIII will be better.

 

[brandonh83]

J. J. Abrams was/is a Yes man with no artistic version and TFA isn't as good as people make it to but I don't think it was a terrible movie either, only Kylo Ren looks really interesting though, I hope VIII will be better.

Everyone that directs Star Wars is now a yes man.

I bet JJ's directing instructions were basically FAST MORE INTENSE

And he wears flannel.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I don't know, I actually saw a bunch of people that died in the Hosnian destruction. I get what you're saying about plot relation, but the Hosnian destruction is also plot related. It was a blow to the Republic and set the rest of the events of the movie up, and on a time limit, much like Yavin.

I saw them and thought "who the hell are these bellends?"

 

[brandonh83]

I saw them and thought "who the hell are these bellends?"

Well, I personally assumed that they were innocent people on a planet being targeted by the First Order, and since the Republic is at odds with the First Order... ah, yes, these must be Republic planets!

I don't find it to be any less compelling than Alderaan. But to each his own.

 

[heliosRAzi]

That would considerably change things, and become about how Rey is distraught because she thinks her parents were killed, which changes the emotional perspective. It's not about that. I get what you're saying, I just don't need for the main character to directly have emotional ties to a planet in order for it to feel significant. I saw some of the people just before they died and they were horrified. It also crippled the Republic/Resistance, of which Rey is now a part of. It also set up for the third act.

I don't get the problem with that, especially using Alderaan to criticize it, but that's alright I guess.

I need them to have direct ties to a planet for it to be significant. Without it, it just feels like a deflated balloon. It doesn't even have to be emotional. Just be something. The movie is about Rey, Finn, and Kylo and Hosnian doesn't really matter to any of them. We bring up Alderaan since it was effective in ANH and it's a nice comparison. You could remove Hosnian or replace it with any other system and get the same tepid effect. It's less compelling and TFA suffers because of it.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I need them to have direct ties to a planet for it to be significant. Without it, it just feels like a deflated balloon. It doesn't even have to be emotional. Just be something. The movie is about Rey, Finn, and Kylo and Hosnian doesn't really matter to any of them. We bring up Alderaan since it was effective in ANH and it's a nice comparison. You could remove Hosnian or replace it with any other system and get the same tepid effect. It's less compelling and TFA suffers because of it.

I'm not sure if I feel that I needed direct ties.

Really all I think the movie needed to do was better establish what the hell the Hosnian system (and therefore what this new Republic) was. It just looked like a planet getting destroyed. Hardly some important blow that I should supposedly care about.

 

[brandonh83]

I need them to have direct ties to a planet for it to be significant. Without it, it just feels like a deflated balloon. It doesn't even have to be emotional. Just be something. The movie is about Rey, Finn, and Kylo and Hosnian doesn't really matter to any of them. We bring up Alderaan since it was effective in ANH and it's a nice comparison. You could remove Hosnian or replace it with any other system and get the same tepid effect. It's less compelling and TFA suffers because of it.

Not for me. It's important to Kylo because it's a one-up for him and the FO. It may not be directly emotionally important to Rey, but I imagine that as someone with a heart that she found it unfortunate. And it is very important to the Resistance, characters like Leia and Poe, an organization that Rey and Finn are now with. The Hosnian destruction was a cripple to the Republic and Resistance, and the Starkiller destruction crippled the First Order. It is called Star Wars

For me it was plenty integral, but like I said, to each his own.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Really all the movie needed to do was better establish what the hell the Hosnian system was. In a way, it really needed to explain why we should care about this new Republic and what they were all about now.

Basically. Especially don't bring it up right before it's destroyed, too.

Not for me. It's important to Kylo because it's a one-up for him and the FO. It may not be directly emotionally important to Rey, but I imagine that as someone with a heart that she found it unfortunate. And it is very important to the Resistance, characters like Leia and Poe, an organization that Rey and Finn are now with. The Hosnian destruction was a cripple to the Republic and Resistance, and the Starkiller destruction crippled the First Order. It is called Star Wars

For me it was plenty integral, but like I said, to each his own.

It didn't seem that Kylo really cared about Hosnian either way. It was more for Hux than Kylo. Rey cares. Of course she cares, but how is that going to change her? Of course it is important to Leia and Poe, but they aren't the main characters of this movie.

 

[4Tran]

It's almost a reverse of the deaths shown in each movie. The point of Obi's death was to give our heroes motivation to fight, to show how evil the bad guy was, and to move the plot along, but there was zero emotional weight to it.

Meanwhile, the death of Han served every purpose that the death of Obi did from a motivation and characterization point of view, but it was also the emotional core of the movie.

The problem with Han was that the scene was sort of boring.

I need them to have direct ties to a planet for it to be significant. Without it, it just feels like a deflated balloon. It doesn't even have to be emotional. Just be something. The movie is about Rey, Finn, and Kylo and Hosnian doesn't really matter to any of them. We bring up Alderaan since it was effective in ANH and it's a nice comparison. You could remove Hosnian or replace it with any other system and get the same tepid effect. It's less compelling and TFA suffers because of it.

Blowing up those planets felt like a Michael Bey explosion, full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing. There was no impact because the audience never cared about those planets to begin with and the characters never cared about those planets to begin with.

 

[brandonh83]

Basically. Especially don't bring it up right before it's destroyed, too.

I kind of feel like if JJ had scenes or mentions right before the destruction, the criticism would turn heel toward "it was silly/bad writing how they tried to make us care just before they were destroyed."

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

I skimmed to the spoiler because all caps hurts my brain but he is so right about that.

Spoiler

Bad death for the best character in the series. gg. The whole set up was just so obvious and the way it was shot just just... bad. total wet fart

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I kind of feel like if JJ had scenes or mentions right before the destruction, the criticism would turn heel toward "it was silly/bad writing how they tried to make us care just before they were destroyed."

But that IS the criticism isn't it?

The Hosnian system basically goes unmentioned until right before its destruction. There's no buildup to give me any emotional or intellectual investment in its destruction. And then it's introduced very briefly as if they suddenly want me to give a shit.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I kind of feel like if JJ had scenes or mentions right before the destruction, the criticism would turn heel toward "it was silly/bad writing how they tried to make us care just before they were destroyed."

But that's what literally happened though. The New Republic gets mentioned in the opening scrawl and it doesn't get mentioned again until right before Hux destroys it. That was silly/bad writing.

 

[brandonh83]

I skimmed to the spoiler because all caps hurts my brain but he is so right about that.

Spoiler

Bad death for the best character in the series. gg. The whole set up was just so obvious and the way it was shot just just... bad.

It was meant to be obvious. The impact wasn't from it happening but the fact that it was about to happen. The cinematography was also absolutely fantastic in that sequence and visually symbolic. Badly shot? Not a chance.

 

[4Tran]

I kind of feel like if JJ had scenes or mentions right before the destruction, the criticism would turn heel toward "it was silly/bad writing how they tried to make us care just before they were destroyed."

It's something that has to be done organically to flow with the rest of the film. Have them beg for help from a Republic representative on Hosnian or something like that.

 

[brandonh83]

I don't know, again I just don't really need justification to realize that a bunch of planets relative to the good guys being destroyed is a bad thing and significant to the characters. The debate is running in circles so I'll throw in my towel. I understand and respect the criticism, it's just not something that I agree with, at least that strongly.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

The problem with Han was that the scene was sort of boring.

I couldn't disagree more.

Especially comparing it to the three snoozefest prequels it was made in response to, that slower scene was a god damn action orgy.

I saw them and thought "who the hell are these bellends?"

I need them to have direct ties to a planet for it to be significant. Without it, it just feels like a deflated balloon. It doesn't even have to be emotional. Just be something. The movie is about Rey, Finn, and Kylo and Hosnian doesn't really matter to any of them. We bring up Alderaan since it was effective in ANH and it's a nice comparison. You could remove Hosnian or replace it with any other system and get the same tepid effect. It's less compelling and TFA suffers because of it.

Blowing up those planets felt like a Michael Bey explosion, full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing. There was no impact because the audience never cared about those planets to begin with and the characters never cared about those planets to begin with.

I posted this on the last page and meant to quote a bunch of posts but forgot, so I'll just repost it here with some of the people I was originally responding to:

One thing I think this whole comparison between the destructions of Hosnian and Alderaan is missing is the utility of each scene to its story and characters.

Alderaan is meant to be the major emotional core of ANH (I'd still argue they did a fairly poor job at making the viewer care though) and one of the turning points of the plot.

The destruction of Hosnian isn't meant to be that. The purpose of that scene begins and ends at displaying the power and reach of the New Order. It's not like Abrams was thinking "I'm going to make everyone cry when they see this part. Oh shit, I forgot to add parts that would make people care. Derp."

It's almost a reverse of the deaths shown in each movie. The point of Obi's death was to give our heroes motivation to fight, to show how evil the bad guy was, and to move the plot along, but there was zero emotional weight to it.

Meanwhile, the death of Han served every purpose that the death of Obi did from a motivation and characterization point of view, but it was also the emotional core of the movie.

Tldr; Alderaan was meant to be the emotional scene; Hosnian wasn't. Han's death was meant to be the emotional scene; Obi's wasn't. Similar plot points, different purposes.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

But that's what literally happened though. The New Republic gets mentioned in the opening scrawl and it doesn't get mentioned again until right before Hux destroys it. That was silly/bad writing.

Holy shit lol, it was mentioned in the opening crawl? Man I don't remember anything from the crawl.

 

[brandonh83]

I couldn't disagree more.

Especially comparing it to the three snoozefest prequels it was made in response to, that slower scene was a god damn action orgy.

Yeah, we're really harping on that scene now? I get the planet destruction thing but this is absurd. That was a great scene. The shots were some of the best in the series and the performances were incredible. It's probably one of the most effective scenes in Star Wars. Hating on that is grasping at some very short straws.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Holy shit lol, it was mentioned in the opening crawl? Man I don't remember anything from the crawl.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.

That's all it says though. And then it isn't brought up until Hux wants to destroy it.

 

[Koyuga]

Hulk hits the nail on the head with this one. The Force Awakens isn't a bad movie by any stretch, but fails to capture what made the Original Trilogy great, or even what made the Prequel Trilogy interesting. Rather than take risks and carve an identity for itself, it relies on safe storytelling and nostalgia to push the movie forward. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not my cup of tea.

Still looking forward to Episode 8, and Rogue One even more so.

 

[brandonh83]

Hulk hits the nail on the head with this one. The Force Awakens isn't a bad movie by any stretch, but fails to capture what made the Original Trilogy great, or even what made the Prequel Trilogy interesting. Rather than take risks and carve an identity for itself, it relies on safe storytelling and nostalgia to push the movie forward. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not my cup of tea.

I won't tell you that you're wrong.

What I will say in response, and how I generally feel, is that it wasn't wrong for TFA to do this. It's a direct follow-up to ROTJ, so it makes sense for that original trilogy aesthetic to generally be in place. With the prequels, it was before the Empire took over and we were shown more regal, pristine environments. When I saw TFA, I did comment to a friend that I missed the sort of creative elegance of the prequels, but then I thought about how the aesthetics of the prequels versus the originals makes actual story sense, and I had less of a problem with it.

TFA is just 20 years after ROTJ and while that's a good chunk of time, it makes sense that the world of TFA closely resembles the tone and aesthetics of the originals. So I don't think that was a mistake, and Abrams said that they consciously did this and wrote the story in such a way to bring back the familiarity of the originals as people mostly complained about how the prequels didn't feel like the originals and all that. And he's not wrong-- people whined about this incessantly.

So again, you're not wrong, and it's not wrong to criticize things about this because it's absolutely the case. However, I felt that it was right. It was correct to present it that way. It made sense considering the context, and I'm not about to slight the film for that. I thought it was less interesting artistically than the prequels, but I've always defend the art and general look of the prequels and I find them to be wildly creative. But, at the time, people didn't seem to care about that and just harped on them because of the writing, acting, and general directing.

TFA reverts back to the style of the originals, but had much better writing and performances than the prequels. So for me, the good outweighs the bad by a considerable margin, and I think the movies will become a lot more interesting, both story wise and visually beyond TFA, a film that had to sort of get Star Wars back into its original groove, and for me it passed that with flying colors.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

It was meant to be obvious. The impact wasn't from it happening but the fact that it was about to happen. The cinematography was also absolutely fantastic in that sequence and visually symbolic. Badly shot? Not a chance.

Yes I know I was meant to be obvious. It was obvious before the movie even came out.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

It was just a bad idea to mix the Death Star plots with the finding Luke Skywalker/lightsaber thing. A New Hope gives you a greater sense of the political relationship between the Empire and the Resistance, what these planets mean to the characters, how it builds from earlier scenes with the Imperials hunting down Leia to seek out the Rebel base. The Death Star is a giant threat built up over the course of the movie, with the hunt for their plans the central item of desire. And its because of that escalation over the course of the film that gives its ending trench run its dramatic power. All led by Luke Skywalker, who has finally found something to fight for in the Rebellion.

In The Force Awakens, the first half the main plot thrust was finding Luke. Then, suddenly half way through, no wait there's actually a giant Death Star now and now this is the main thrust of the movie, destroying that. I think that's a big reason why a lot of people found the whole Trench Run in this movie so forgettable and perfunctory. It never felt like it was core the story the movie was telling, but a distraction. "yea yea sure, Death Star thing, but where's Luke??? I thought thats what this movie was about." Then its over and oh yeah, R2 wakes up for no reason except that the movie is over and its time to wrap up now.

 

[Mossybrew]

I also think HULK is spot-on with this article. He really articulated a lot of my problems with the movie. And he's right about my overall feeling about it - I sure enjoyed it while I was watching it, but after on reflection, it just felt kinda hollow. I mean, I haven't even been motivated to rent the Blu-ray at the Redbox when I've been desperate for a movie.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It was just a bad idea to mix the Death Star plots with the finding Luke Skywalker/lightsaber thing. A New Hope gives you a greater sense of the political relationship between the Empire and the Resistance, what these planets mean to the characters, how it builds from earlier scenes with the Imperials hunting down Leia to seek out the Rebel base. The Death Star is a giant threat built up over the course of the movie, with the hunt for their plans the central item of desire. And its because of that escalation over the course of the film that gives its ending trench run its dramatic power. All led by Luke Skywalker, who has finally found something to fight for in the Rebellion.

In The Force Awakens, the first half the main plot thrust was finding Luke. Then, suddenly half way through, no wait there's actually a giant Death Star now and now this is the main thrust of the movie, destroying that. I think that's a big reason why a lot of people found the whole Trench Run in this movie so forgettable and perfunctory. It never felt like it was core the story the movie was telling, but a distraction. "yea yea sure, Death Star thing, but where's Luke??? I thought thats what this movie was about." Then its over and oh yeah, R2 wakes up for no reason except that the movie is over and its time to wrap up now.

I never thought about mixing the plots quite like that. Very spot on.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I never thought about mixing the plots quite like that. Very spot on.

"When it doubt, have a guy enter with a gun in his hand." That is what the movie literally does. The FO comes in with a really big gun.

 

[Nerdkiller]

I bet JJ's directing instructions were basically FAST MORE INTENSE

You joke, but given how the movie is paced out from scene to scene, it certainly had that feeling.

It was meant to be obvious. The impact wasn't from it happening but the fact that it was about to happen. The cinematography was also absolutely fantastic in that sequence and visually symbolic. Badly shot? Not a chance.

But as a whole, it just felt so inconsequential. Compare that to when Obi Wan was struck down. Not only are we given beforehand that he'll be more powerful in death, but they actually follow up on it when his disembodied voice tells Luke to trust his hidden feelings to guide him into destroying the Death Star. What happened in Episode VII just felt like a short term gain in trying to pull people's emotions (and judging from what Hulk said when he watched it in the theatre with a group of superfans, they didn't seem to accomplish all that well).

 

[brandonh83]

But as a whole, it just felt so inconsequential. Compare that to when Obi Wan was struck down. Not only are we given beforehand that he'll be more powerful in death, but they actually follow up on it when his disembodied voice tells Luke to trust his hidden feelings to guide him into destroying the Death Star. What happened in Episode VII just felt like a short term gain in trying to pull people's emotions (and judging from what Hulk said when he watched it in the theatre with a group of superfans, they didn't seem to accomplish all that well).

Han's death is absolutely pivotal for Kylo's character arc. Can't agree with this whatsoever. It wasn't pointless and just there for emotional impact. That's a part of it obviously, but it did serve a purpose.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

I still see people trying their hardest to defend these shallow "new" characters.

It's just funny at this point. Damn.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I still see people trying their hardest to defend these shallow "new" characters.

It's just funny at this point. Damn.

The only interesting one is Kylo. Finn could have been more interesting if they followed through with his former occupation. Rey should've been more interesting, but she's just boring. Poe is barely in the movie to do anything.

 

[Prince of Space]

I honestly don't get the "Han's death feels meaningless cuz he and Kylo never had a relationship onscreen" argument b/c it's pretty damn obvious Han was meant to be seen more as the mentor/father figure to Rey, not Kylo, and the movie pulled that off well, so his death is still tragic, if not at all surprising.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I never thought about mixing the plots quite like that. Very spot on.

They just arent connected at all. Its not like they have Luke captured and this is an obstacle they have to overcome to get to him. Its like Hulk mentioned, there's a difference between "this happen, so THIS happen" storytelling and "And then THIS happen, and then THIS happen". One of these follows events in a logical satisfying manner, the other just throws things up at you constantly hoping you'll be entertaining by the spectacle of it all.

It feels like its there only because they needed a big third act climax place and they couldn't figure out how to get Luke involved without him overtaking all the characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a giant third act climax happening in a cool location, but its something that needs to be built up over the course of the film and flow from the character motivations. When Sarah Conner and the crew assault CyberDyne in Terminator 2, this is a logical continuation from her established motivation to protect her son and the planet from Skynet. To do that, they're gonna stop Skynet from existing at all by getting in there and destroying the exoskeleton hand. When the Incredibles have to defeat Syndrome's giant weapon at the end, its satisfying because these disconnected, discontent characters who were banned from using their powers are now finally working together, confident in their abilities, fighting to save the world in public. And its wonderful dramatic irony in that Symdrone, in his giant scheme to destroy Mr. Incredible and all superheroes, actually ends up giving superheroes like Mr. Incredible and Frozone a perfect opportunity to show why they're important. When Tom Hanks in the gang from Saving Private Ryan have to defend that bridge at the end in the big climax, its because of the titular Private Ryan they've been trying to save the whole movie. The only way they're gonna get him is to stand and fight.

What does this Death Star thing have to do with our protagonist's motivation to find Luke Skywalker? What does this have to do with her desire for her family? How is this a dramatically satisfying and logical conclusion of the character motivations established in the first half of the film?

 

[MutFox]

I won't tell you that you're wrong.

What I will say in response, and how I generally feel, is that it wasn't wrong for TFA to do this. It's a direct follow-up to ROTJ, so it makes sense for that original trilogy aesthetic to generally be in place. With the prequels, it was before the Empire took over and we were shown more regal, pristine environments. When I saw TFA, I did comment to a friend that I missed the sort of creative elegance of the prequels, but then I thought about how the aesthetics of the prequels versus the originals makes actual story sense, and I had less of a problem with it.

TFA is just 20 years after ROTJ and while that's a good chunk of time, it makes sense that the world of TFA closely resembles the tone and aesthetics of the originals. So I don't think that was a mistake, and Abrams said that they consciously did this and wrote the story in such a way to bring back the familiarity of the originals as people mostly complained about how the prequels didn't feel like the originals and all that. And he's not wrong-- people whined about this incessantly.

So again, you're not wrong, and it's not wrong to criticize things about this because it's absolutely the case. However, I felt that it was right. It was correct to present it that way. It made sense considering the context, and I'm not about to slight the film for that. I thought it was less interesting artistically than the prequels, but I've always defend the art and general look of the prequels and I find them to be wildly creative. But, at the time, people didn't seem to care about that and just harped on them because of the writing, acting, and general directing.

TFA reverts back to the style of the originals, but had much better writing and performances than the prequels. So for me, the good outweighs the bad by a considerable margin, and I think the movies will become a lot more interesting, both story wise and visually beyond TFA, a film that had to sort of get Star Wars back into its original groove, and for me it passed that with flying colors.

Except they don't really follow up ROTJ, the awings and bwings are taking over for the xwings and ywings, yet they episode 4 it up and go back to xwings.
Same thing with the TIE fighters, where were the TIE interceptors or Bombers?
Those were ALL in ROTJ.

In TFA they had opportunities to use the other ships, when they're being bombed near the beginning, that wouldn't have been TIE fighters but TIE Bombers.

On the Starkiller offensive, Bwings would have been used on the bombing run or even you know a NEW ship.

Anyone with knowledge of Star Wars knows this.
They didn't care for those fans, just wanted to play it safe by doing a semi-reboot.

Have several other complaints about the lore.
Just hope the newer movies try and fix this.
Hope they try to evolve the Star Wars Galaxy,
not just pander to nostalgia and bad memory.

 

[TrueBlue]

I felt Starkiller was effective in highlightimg Rey's growimg awareness of the Force. I think this is important because the Force vision scene with Maz implies that awareness of her potential goes hand in hand with her looking to the future as opposed to waiting stuck in the past.

I also think it serves to show Finn's development: for the entirety of the film up to that point he had been running away in a slightly self-serving manner. Him storming Starkiller Base to save Rey was an important step for him.

That being said, the comment on mixed plots is spot-on. Starkiller's portrayal as another Death Star was so on the nose that it could never really serve as anything more than window dressing for me.

 

[brandonh83]

Except they don't really follow up ROTJ, the awings and bwings are taking over for the xwings and ywings, yet they episode 4 it up and go back to xwings.

You're trying to argue story follow up with ships?

 

[badcrumble]

Finn and Kylo Ren are pretty great in the film, but I totally agree with the issues about Rey as written. Daisy Ridley performs the role fantastically, but the film insists on telling us she's super special instead of showing us (and indeed seemingly expects us to care about her more because she's special than simply because we like her and want her to succeed).

We didn't know what really made Luke *important* until the end of TESB, but we didn't need to (and we were never teased with some kind of big secret about him in ANH). What backstory we did get on him in ANH served primarily as character motivation (and actually turned out to be untrue anyway).

Totally agreed that Han Solo's death is regrettably underwhelming. I wish the film had had another six months to get its kinks polished out and find its focus and it's going to feel like a major permanent loss that that never happened.

 

[Nerdkiller]

Han's death is absolutely pivotal for Kylo's character arc. Can't agree with this whatsoever. It wasn't pointless and just there for emotional impact. That's a part of it obviously, but it did serve a purpose.

But it's already shown that he has little regard for humanity throughout. I don't remember him having any sort of conscience that would justify what he said after he offed Papa Solo (we'll see, I'm just starting up the movie again to watch this very second). We don't exactly see what it is that's holding him back from being even more evil, especially given his actions seem to suggest that he's already at the very tip of evilness.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

They just arent connected at all. Its not like they have Luke captured and this is an obstacle they have to overcome to get to him. Its like Hulk mentioned, there's a difference between "this happen, so THIS happen" storytelling and "And then THIS happen, and then THIS happen". One of these follows events in a logical satisfying manner, the other just throws things up at you constantly hoping you'll be entertaining by the spectacle of it all.

It feels like its there only because they needed a big third act climax place and they couldn't figure out how to get Luke involved without him overtaking all the characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a giant third act climax happening in a cool location, but its something that needs to be built up over the course of the film and flow from the character motivations. When Sarah Conner and the crew assault CyberDyne in Terminator 2, this is a logical continuation from her established motivation to protect her son and the planet from Skynet. To do that, they're gonna stop Skynet from existing at all by getting in there and destroying the exoskeleton hand. When the Incredibles have to defeat Syndrome's giant weapon at the end, its satisfying because these disconnected, discontent characters who were banned from using their powers are now finally working together, confident in their abilities, fighting to save the world in public. And its wonderful dramatic irony in that Symdrone, in his giant scheme to destroy Mr. Incredible and all superheroes, actually ends up giving superheroes like Mr. Incredible and Frozone a perfect opportunity to show why they're important. When Tom Hanks in the gang from Saving Private Ryan have to defend that bridge at the end in the big climax, its because of the titular Private Ryan they've been trying to save the whole movie. The only way they're gonna get him is to stand and fight.

What does this Death Star thing have to do with our protagonist's motivation to find Luke Skywalker? What does this have to do with her desire for her family? How is this a dramatically satisfying and logical conclusion of the character motivations established in the first half of the film?

Spot on again mate.

 

[heliosRAzi]

How is this a dramatically satisfying and logical conclusion of the character motivations established in the first half of the film?

Because it's Cool. It's why Finn is a former Stormtrooper but they don't dive into those implications. It's why Rey can pilot the Millennium Falcon so deftly. It's why Hosnian got blown up. It's why the third act takes place on Death Star 3 and why there is even a bigger, badder Death Star.

It's all Cool.

 

[MutFox]

You're trying to argue story follow up with ships?

Watch rotj then TFA.
The vehicle tech regresses to ANH.

It's called world building, what makes some stories come alive.
If you don't get that, you probably don't care.

As a Star Wars fan, it was pretty damn important.
This movie was made for casual Star Wars fans.

Now I know why Star Trek fans hate JJ.
I liked the new Star Trek movies, but am a casual Star Trek fan.

 

[otake]

The Han Solo scene was a huge let down. Both his arrival and departure. It really does sum up everything that's wrong in the movie. I felt more emotion watching Solo get frozen into carbonyte.

 

[Won]

It's a new Star Wars movie so most of it has already been said in some form, but it's a good write-up about why the movie doesn't excite me to revisit it and the problems with JJ as a whole.

 

[Jarmel]

Finn defects because he wants to not die, not because he's friends with a faceless Stormtrooper.

I'm not sure why so many people misread that scene. You look at Finn's face, is he grieving? No, he's fucking terrified (and horrified by the slaughter of civilians, which unlike his supposed Stormtrooper friend he actually brings up later on). His entire character arc is about him overcoming that initial fear for his life and embracing his better side.

Pretty sure he's friends with the Stormtrooper that died, just as he knew the Traitor stormtrooper (Zero or whatever according to the books). Also you don't see his face because he has a helmet on.

Watch rotj then TFA.
The vehicle tech regresses to ANH.

It's called world building, what makes some stories come alive.
If you don't get that, you probably don't care.

As a Star Wars fan, it was pretty damn important.
This movie was made for casual Star Wars fans.

Now I know why Star Trek fans hate JJ.
I liked the new Star Trek movies, but am a casual Star Trek fan.

Honestly the ship-to-ship combat was fucking atrocious. Even ANH was leagues better than TFA.

 

[Toxi]

Pretty sure he's friends with the Stormtrooper that died, just as he knew the Traitor stormtrooper (Zero or whatever according to the books). Also you don't see his face because he has a helmet on.

I haven't read the books.

There is no indication in the movie that Finn was friends with the Stormtrooper who died. He doesn't make a show of respect, he doesn't grieve or even mention the Stormtrooper afterwards. Instead his first instinct is to get the fuck away.

 

[brandonh83]

Watch rotj then TFA.
The vehicle tech regresses to ANH.

The vehicles have absolutely fuck all to do with TFA following ROTJ, I'm strictly talking narrative here. It not having A-Wings or C-Wings doesn't negate that it's a follow up.

 

[Jarmel]

I haven't read the books.

There is no indication in the movie that Finn was friends with the Stormtrooper who died. He doesn't make a show of respect, he doesn't grieve.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3714797

Well, remember that Stormtrooper that Finn sees be killed at the very beginning of The Force Awakens? The one who leaves the then FN-2187's helmet smeared with blood?

Well, as Susana Polo over at Polygon has pointed out, that's probably Slips. After all, it would surely have taken a major event to break Finn's lifetime of Stormtrooper conditioning, and taking part in a massacre didn't seem to phase a single one of his fellow 'troopers.

If he'd just watched the young man he'd spent a lifetime protecting be killed — all because he followed orders and didn't watch out for him — though? Well, that suddenly seems like exactly the sort of thing that would cause an empathetic guy like Finn to rebel his way into all of our hearts.

He doesn't make a show of respect, he doesn't grieve or even mention the Stormtrooper afterwards.

That's precisely because there's no sense of continuity in the movie.

 

[Toxi]

Watch rotj then TFA.
The vehicle tech regresses to ANH.

You do realize there were TIE Fighters and X-Wings in the Battle of Endor, right? The B-Wing and A-Wing never replaced the X-Wing and had different intended roles in combat.

 

[Jarmel]

You do realize there were TIE Fighters and X-Wings in the Battle of Endor, right? The B-Wing and A-Wing never replaced the X-Wing and had different intended roles in combat.

There probably should have been B-Wings in that bombing run on Starkiller at the end.

 

[Toxi]

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3714797

That's precisely because there's no sense of continuity in the movie.

Again, there is zero indication in the movie Finn has a bond with random Stormtrooper.

After the battle he doesn't mention random Stormtrooper. You know what he does mention? That the First Order does terrible things (like massacring unarmed civilians) and that he wants to get the fuck away.

The whole idea of the scene is Finn thinking "Oh shit it coulda been me", not "Oh no, not my friend Bobby!"