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Why are modern JRPGs such a mess?
- Thread starter Alcotholic
- Start date
Scrooge McDuck
Member
This doesn't really make sense.
"Why aren't modern JRPGs more like JRPGs of old?"
-> "Well, have you tried Trails, a modern series that is more like JRPGs of old?"
--> "But Trails isn't modern in anyway. If anything it's like the JRPGs of old."
Alcotholic
Banned
I've play XCX and enjoyed it for the most part. Loved it mostly for the mechs and the exploration. The combat was pretty fun when I figured out what the heck was going on. I wasn't a fan of the grind-y quests and the weird web of relationships. I felt like it was impossible to really complete.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Anyone who thinks Japanese RPGs have not changed at all since the PS1 era have clearly not been playing Japanese RPGs since the PS1 era.
Sanctuary
Member
Nevermind! Your post by itself doesn't make much sense. Had to look at what your quoted reply was replying to.
AcademicSaucer
Member
I have. I don't think they've changed in any meaningful way, mechanically. Maybe that's goalpost moving, but I didn't think such a practical generality required a literality exam.
I don't count ARPGs to be JRPGs though. Maybe the hybrids like Star Ocean and Tales of, but certainly not games like Kingdom Hearts or Souls.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I see. That's disappointing.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I don't believe it's the tropes, themselves, that bother people; I think its the way they're used. The Trails series has tropes all over the fucking place, but that's just a backdrop for some genuinely interesting plots. Those games are special because of the feeling of adventure they give you.
Basileus777
Member
That's how these things always go. Soon the thread will begin redefining the genre to exclude anything that doesn't fit nicely with their preconceptions.
TheSpoiler
Member
Oh shit, BoF3's cast members were so great!
You had Momo the catwoman, Peco the plant..thing, and Ryu the grizzled teenaged anime boy! Don't forget his catman friend Rei!
Don't wanna play as a 5 year old? Thank god BoF3 only forces you to play as a child for 1/4 of the game!
I love BoF but that was like the wrong example, lol.
Edit: Momo is actually a dogwoman/Grassrunner, which definitely makes a huge difference.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Well, nevermind also, then. Haha.
They are, sorry. JRPG does not mean "turn-based combat."
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Even if I were to take two turn-based console RPGs from the same developer, such as Persona 1 (PS1) and Tokyo Mirage Sessions (Wii U), do you really not think there is any mechanical difference between these two games? If not, what would be an example of a meaningful mechanical difference for you?
Sanctuary
Member
CaviarMeths
Member
The "no feet" thing was said about Awakening too and I honestly thought it was just a running joke to be bothered by it, a meme like Half Life 3 or something. Then I saw more and more people saying it, and then I realized that people weren't joking. They really were bothered by the lack of feet.
Eh, it's more of a strategy game with RPG elements.
Great game though, one of the best of last gen.
CaviarMeths
Member
Unnecessary qualifier, as there is really no such thing as a big budget JRPG that panders to otaku. It's not a big enough market. The only big budget JRPG you're missing off that list is FFXV, which also doesn't pander to otaku.
I agree. Not turn-based alone. Japanese-styled turn-based: derivatives of Dragon Quest. Anything otherwise is just not meaningful enough to be practical in any form of communication. I wouldn't sell a person Dark Souls if they wanted games like Final Fantasy -- games which have an exceedingly distinct and weighty mechanical legacy.
Your kind of categorization is more prone to error. It says where a game comes from is more important than how a game plays. I would count games like Costume Quest, South Park, and Anachronax as a western-made JRPG.
My latest ventures into the genre had to have been Ni No Kuni or FF13-2. I would hope that's modern enough and I wouldn't have to buy a Wii U, but if it isn't then fair enough. I don't think tyool 2016 outliers sell a change in genre as a whole -- especially a crossover with Fire Emblem, which isn't a JRPG.
If you really liked the sci-fi setting and of course the world building, i guarantee u that Xeno X is worth that time investment.^_^ All the Xeno's with their own background story, how human is not as kind as we thought and what human and Xeno's can do to ease each other with their own culture is absolute blast for me.^_^
TC McQueen
Member
Oh, how I wish XCX had Mass Effect style combat instead of the MMO-like system it's got. I would've actually bought it, instead of ignoring after seeing the gameplay footage five seconds after seeing a GIF of a transforming mecha.
Because since FF7 they've been structured like a season of an anime series, while before that they were structured like epic novels. The latter is a far, far better choice, but requires a lot more planning and work, so even though FF7's heyday is long over, nobody wants to go back and do the heavy lifting again. The Suikoden series was one of the last gasps of the novel structure approach. Suikoden 2 may be the pinnacle of the form.
I still think 3D RPGs was the end of the great jRPG era, which was to be followed by the era of angsty teenagers. Explaining the general loss of quality would take far too long though. There are way too many confounding factors to actually be able to point to one thing (I do because I'm lazy).
ROFLMAO.
I haven't played as many JRPGs as most mega fans probably have over the years, but I see a few things possibly affecting the genre.
1) The market being taken over by Otaku bait like everything else in Japanese entertainment.
2) Between roughly 2005 and maybe 2012 the whole genre survived on handhelds mostly.
3) Final Fantasy falling off and numbered Kingdom Hearts going AWOL meant JRPGs no longer had any standard bearers to left the genre into public attention. FF and KH are pretty much the only console JRPGs to get real mainstream success (another JRPG being Pokemon on handhelds). Without them the whole genre is just a bunch of individual niche games, many of which probably fly under the radar. Today the only thing people can really see in common when they look at the whole JRPG space at once is that there are a lot of Otaku games. The really good JRPGs that do exist today are harder to find, just like today's better anime.
4) There's just less money in Japanese entertainment these days, JRPGs included, thus the Otaku pandering. Another affect of this is that your average JRPG will never get the kind of production budget and graphics you see for a game like Mass Effect or The Witcher 3. A few games like Ni No Kuni and Persona 5 get around this with good art direction, but those tend to be a handful.
What I've noticed is that a lot of the best JRPGs these days and the most consistent developers are the ones that have maintained healthy and stable niche audiences for 25+ years that have gotten them through these tough times. Mainly I'm talking about companies like Atlus and Nihon Falcom. They never needed or went for Final Fantasy-level success, instead sticking to their guns and their audiences, so they didn't suffer as much from the disappearance of that mainstream core. The games from those developers also seem to stick closer to the staples of JRPGs from the 80's and early 90's instead of the template set by Final Fantasy VII. This gives them a less bloated feeling that stays true to the original reasons hardcore fans got into RPGs back in the day. Their storyliens and combat systems aren't needlessly convoluted. Dragon Quest has the same quality.
Oh, and I consider the Souls games to be JRPGs too. They are Japanese games and they play by the conventions of role-playing games. They just don't stick as closely to the tropes of JRPGs, particularly not post-FFVII JRPGs. In a way the Souls games also take a simpler, more old school approach to their design and storytelling that isn't bound by post-FFVII conventions.
1) The market being taken over by Otaku bait like everything else in Japanese entertainment.
2) Between roughly 2005 and maybe 2012 the whole genre survived on handhelds mostly.
3) Final Fantasy falling off and numbered Kingdom Hearts going AWOL meant JRPGs no longer had any standard bearers to left the genre into public attention. FF and KH are pretty much the only console JRPGs to get real mainstream success (another JRPG being Pokemon on handhelds). Without them the whole genre is just a bunch of individual niche games, many of which probably fly under the radar. Today the only thing people can really see in common when they look at the whole JRPG space at once is that there are a lot of Otaku games. The really good JRPGs that do exist today are harder to find, just like today's better anime.
4) There's just less money in Japanese entertainment these days, JRPGs included, thus the Otaku pandering. Another affect of this is that your average JRPG will never get the kind of production budget and graphics you see for a game like Mass Effect or The Witcher 3. A few games like Ni No Kuni and Persona 5 get around this with good art direction, but those tend to be a handful.
What I've noticed is that a lot of the best JRPGs these days and the most consistent developers are the ones that have maintained healthy and stable niche audiences for 25+ years that have gotten them through these tough times. Mainly I'm talking about companies like Atlus and Nihon Falcom. They never needed or went for Final Fantasy-level success, instead sticking to their guns and their audiences, so they didn't suffer as much from the disappearance of that mainstream core. The games from those developers also seem to stick closer to the staples of JRPGs from the 80's and early 90's instead of the template set by Final Fantasy VII. This gives them a less bloated feeling that stays true to the original reasons hardcore fans got into RPGs back in the day. Their storyliens and combat systems aren't needlessly convoluted. Dragon Quest has the same quality.
Oh, and I consider the Souls games to be JRPGs too. They are Japanese games and they play by the conventions of role-playing games. They just don't stick as closely to the tropes of JRPGs, particularly not post-FFVII JRPGs. In a way the Souls games also take a simpler, more old school approach to their design and storytelling that isn't bound by post-FFVII conventions.
WickedLaharl
Member
Because tri-ace fell off and shovelware developers like Idea Factory get a lot of work.
Hyperactivity
Banned
If you don't care for handhelds.....
Man, no wonder some of you guys think there have been 0 good recent jrpgs, because handheld have been crushing consoles in this genre for a while now. I get what you're saying about not liking the older style of jrpg, but not the modern (basically you like the SNES through PS2 era jrpgs), but asides from the biggest Western hits which you already know about (FF, KH, Pokemon, etc.), the majority of those big, but not as big franchises, the Wild Arms and Breath of Fires that don't do Final Fantasy numbers but were still damn good and sold pretty well and were made by major companies..... they're mostly ON handhelds.
Forget the 3DS and Vita for a second, the DS and PSP rank with the OG Playstation and SNES when it comes to crushing everything else when it comes to jrpgs
In any case, I was originally going to respond to your Bravely Default comment. BD had a bad 2nd half, when it comes to it's story, world, etc. But, at the same time, I would say that Bravely Default never really was too outstanding on those merits. Even the first half, like someone else mentioned, it very very classic, almost unoriginal at times
The way I would recommend someone approach Bravely Default is to constantly constantly experiment with different class set-ups. Bravely Default's gameplay is the type that can be broken in so many so many ways. If you were to search up broken combos in Bravely Default online, you could find multitudes of them.
The one thing about that is to never never let yourself accept and settle on a broken combo. Basically, mess around with the classes and combos to get to max damage attacks that 1-2 hit kill bosses, experience the power thrill, and then drop that combo.
You're having trouble with a future boss, that's ridiculously hard to kill? Your party is under leveled, or has weak equipment? Nope, don't you dare let yourself use that old broken strategy.
Even letting yourself settle into a non-broken set of classes, patterns, and attacks. Bravely Default is really bland if you're doing the same set of actions every battle - if I could play DMC and make it into a science with what buttons I push, in a consistent pattern, the gameplay won't really be that engaging, right? Same thing.
But if you refuse to let yourself settle down with a way to do battles, always always trying to find the next combination of classes, abilities, and moves to break the game, Bravely Default's gameplay becomes so much fun. Tbh, I've always preferred turn-based (WITHOUT the timer), and Bravely Default is one of the best turn based systems I've ever played. Had I gone online, found the first broken combination in the game I could, and just play the majority of the game that way, it would be SO much worse, because battles are just going to be boring and filler (I learned this the hard way when I first played through Golden Sun and made the final and bonus bosses utter jokes. It's not fun after the initial power fantasy...)
I don't know how anyone can said this when the game free us from the need of healer and add Soul Voice as another layer to allow ur team to be more variant vs most Jrpg now.
If by terrible second half you mean a section you can get through in 2 hours. People always over exaggerated that section.I'm with you, OP. Growing up I loved JRPGs for the same reason you did.
To me, the genre mostly died in gen 5. The most "recent" JRPG I really like is Trails in the Sky, and that's technically from 2004. Uh, Suikoden V then. But yeah. Maybe Ys: Memories of Celceta, but that's not turn-based or anything, it's more action/adventure at heart.
But the more traditional, turn-based RPGs of my youth are gone.
The closest things are either indie games (Cosmic Star Heroine will save us, I hope!) or relegated to tiny-ass screens. And, of course, most of them are filled with insufferable otaku bait horseshit and/or terrible pseudo-action combat that started to become common with Tales of games, and more recently Xenoblade and all those awful games. And of course Final Fantasy has been complete crap for almost two decades.
Agreed.
Oh? That's too bad. I was hoping it'd be at least pretty good. What do you mean, a miracle anyone can walk?
Xenoblade is awful. Trails is good, but it's old. Even the modern Trails games (Cold Steel etc.) are based on an older style of JRPG, not the modern ones, and from what I hear they've got more otaku-baiting stuff than before.
Don't care for handhelds, but doesn't Bravely Default have major issues, namely a terrible second half? I only played the demo and I liked the combat, but I found the art direction to be eye-gougingly bad. *shrugs* If they made a console JRPG with that kind of combat and decent art, I'd probably buy it.
Everything past gen 5 = modern for us old curmudgeonsIf anything, it only got worse after that. At least gen 5 still had Wild ARMs 3 and Suikoden V which were pretty good.
Op play persona 4. Its old but still newer than the game you picked.
Sanctuary
Member
Yes, it's very hard to believe that not everyone likes the same things. Get this: I like "anime", but can't stand the majority of the anime that's been popular since 2000.
Don't know. I just really had sooo much trouble liking any trails title. I just feel it is sooo boring and the battle system is not that fun.T_T My personal opinion of course.T_T
Ummm. stop playing Compile Hearts Jrpg i guess XenoX actually had the females much more competent vs the males lol. Not to mention, even the side female character all is treated with respect.
TMS female all is also really nice and fresh to see lol.
FF15 is Fujoshi bait though.
CaviarMeths
Member
Yeah, I'm aware now that people are serious about feet. I've moved it from the "giant enemy crab" folder to the "fuck Konami" folder of my memory bank. I know people like different things, but I honestly thought this one was a joke. There was a disconnect.
Edit: please don't also tell me that people don't think giant enemy crabs are funny.
I think the people who complain about otaku games taking over the market aren't aware of how little they actually sell; they just have dedicated fanbases who keep buying them because they like them. If you look at the first-week sales between two handheld RPGs that recently released, you'll see the difference, and this is just one recent example:
Etrian Odyssey V: The End of the Long Myth (Atlus, 08/04/16) 92,518 (New)
Genkai Tokki: Seven Pirates (Compile Heart, 08/04/16) 12,264 (New)
Etrian Odyssey V: The End of the Long Myth (Atlus, 08/04/16) 92,518 (New)
Genkai Tokki: Seven Pirates (Compile Heart, 08/04/16) 12,264 (New)
Scrooge McDuck
Member
Oo, that's an interesting analogy. Would you mind expounding more about the narrative style difference between a series season and an epic novel when applied to JRPGs?
JRPGs used to be my favorite game genre for about 2 decades, the vast majority of JRPGs from Phantasy Star for the SEGA Master System to Persona 4 for the PS2 were awesome. At least the ones I got my hands on. I suspect Suikoden 1-5 will remain as my favorite game series until I die.
Since then I've barely played any JRPGs I enjoyed, there been Lost Odyssey, Radiant Historia and Xenoblade Chronicles and that's kind of it. Well, Ni no Kuni was ok too.
But so many JRPGs these days seem to have a very minimal focus on a story, and instead focus on so much fanservice and bullshit you just want to facepalm yourself over and over.
There seem to be an increasing amount of stupid main characters too (who on earth wants to play as an idiot?) with the prime example being Edge Maverick from Star Ocean 4 who happily help to destroy the Earth and all the player can do is to think "what the hell is he doing?"
Not to mention all the annoying sidekicks, like Tatsu in Xenoblade Chronicles X, telling the same crappy joke over and over and over and over and over and over. Damn, that's some quality writing there. XCX didn't even have the most redeeming feature of JRPGs either, an awesome soundtrack, instead it had among the worst game music I ever heard when visiting New LA. Oh well, at least Tatsu is better than Zack in Time and Eternity, I guess, Zack probably takes the prize as the worst sidekick ever.
Since then I've barely played any JRPGs I enjoyed, there been Lost Odyssey, Radiant Historia and Xenoblade Chronicles and that's kind of it. Well, Ni no Kuni was ok too.
But so many JRPGs these days seem to have a very minimal focus on a story, and instead focus on so much fanservice and bullshit you just want to facepalm yourself over and over.
There seem to be an increasing amount of stupid main characters too (who on earth wants to play as an idiot?) with the prime example being Edge Maverick from Star Ocean 4 who happily help to destroy the Earth and all the player can do is to think "what the hell is he doing?"
Not to mention all the annoying sidekicks, like Tatsu in Xenoblade Chronicles X, telling the same crappy joke over and over and over and over and over and over. Damn, that's some quality writing there. XCX didn't even have the most redeeming feature of JRPGs either, an awesome soundtrack, instead it had among the worst game music I ever heard when visiting New LA. Oh well, at least Tatsu is better than Zack in Time and Eternity, I guess, Zack probably takes the prize as the worst sidekick ever.
NintendosBooger
Member
Looking for quality jrpgs these days and "not caring" for handhelds is as absurd as wondering where all the great real-time strategy games are without caring for PCs. You go where the games are; otherwise, stop your whining.
? Are u saying EO is otaku game or what lol.?^_^
Pretty much. I knew there was a section in the game most people considered bad, so as soon as I got there I just went straight to the bosses without wasting any time and was done with it in like an hour in a half. Bravely Default is a great game.
Also it's pretty hard to discuss JRPGs because a lot of people seek very different things in them, which makes their opinions clash all the time. For example you see a lot of people calling Xenoblade's combat trash but I thought the combat and the game in general were genius, it's one of the best games I've played in my life. And I don't know why they didn't enjoy it, it could be because it's not their style and they prefer traditional turn based gameplay, or maybe they thought it was automated nonsense because all they needed to get past bosses was to grind. Who knows. That's JRPGs for you.
No, I'm saying it's not and comparing it to Seven Pirates, which is, and showing how much more the former sold. The point is that "otaku pandering games" usually don't actually sell that much compared the actual big-selling JRPGs, despite what a lot of people on here seem to think. The ones that pander to otakus just tend to be cheaper to produce, and thus don't need to sell as much to be considered a success usually.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
I'm not sure what change in the genre as a whole means, especially since Japanese RPGs have been mechanically diverse for pretty much their entire history. Even on the Famicom, you had action RPGs such as Hydlide, Wizardry clones such as Deep Dungeon, and then the Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games which are pretty much the only 8-bit RPGs remembered. Even if we restrict ourselves to mainline Final Fantasy games, Final Fantasy XIII is very little like Final Fantasy IX; there's a basic similarity in the idea of ATB underlying the combat system, but how battles play out in both games is very different. It seems like a lot of people define "JRPG" very narrowly and then complain that JRPGs are too narrow, which seems like a backwards way of doing things to me.
About Tokyo Mirage Sessions, while it is sort of a crossover between SMT and Fire Emblem, the only main gameplay mechanic specifically taken from Fire Emblem is the rock-paper-scissors system of different attack priorities. Overall the game is more a development of the systems of SMT and Persona.
Problem with this analogy is great RTS have always been at home on PC, while consoles have had a noticeable loss of great JRPG.
JoeyJungle
Banned
So I've never gotten past Chapter 1 of TitS FC, but it seemed like a used a lot of these tropes? Like Joshua is an amnesia/fatherless kid, Estelle is his feisty step-sister/love interest, they assemble a rag tag group and go questing together.
I kinda want to blame modern anime, but I don't really know if there's anything worth criticizing or if I just have preferences that 80's/90's anime catered more too. Like right now I'm watching Aldermann in the Sky and Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and they both have a similar concepts with their main protagonist (genius lazy general that wins unwinnable battles using unconventional tactics). Beyond that they're very different shows, but the difference that really strikes me is just how much of an emphasis Legend of the Galactic Heroes places on depth of its history, how populations and popular sentiment limit military strategy and aggression, supply lines, etc. Most shows with a plot revolving around military usually are very character-driven and only touch on the complexities of the army when it's necessary for the plot (usually for putting a Checkov's Gun into whatever strategy they're using), but Legend of the Galactic Heroes are so committed to it that they have multiple episodes that only go into the fictional history inside the series, that don't drive the plot further at all. It's kind of bizarre, I was going to say "You don't really get that in modern anime" but I actually think LotGH is totally unique in that regard.
Anyway, I think modern JRPGs rely too heavily on tropes from modern anime even though nothing I wrote really supports that at all.