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[MrDoctor]

It's all FF7's fault.

a hyperbolic statement for sure, but i have never seen a more perfect first post. playing artifact adventure this past week has inspired me to do a write-up about where rpgs worldwide went wrong post-90's

One could argue that average anime is a bastardization of the art of storytelling.

ironically, video games as a medium fall far below that level

 

[Mik317]

A niche genre that is trying too hard not to be.

I feel like this is right.

I think people want niche ass stuff but with the budget of something mainstream.

which is what SE has been struggling with for a while now.

and yet its why some of the best JRPGs have been smaller affairs on handhelds where being niche ass shit is fine, if not expected.

People are asking for a style of story that doesn't exactly hit anymore, with complex and intricate gameplay (turn based even) that will alienate the masses, that is crazy long (anything less than 45 hrs is apparently too short and not worth the money, with the best VA, the best music, and top of the line graphics.

 

[Cyrano]

The jRPG is stagnant for the same reason Japanese games in general are stagnant. Most of the games that have come out in the wake of the corporatization of the Japanese gaming market are those built on the market that came before it, which was largely one that was barely getting by until around the PSX era. Nintendo was making it big of course, but Final Fantasy was named as such for a reason, a reason that has since been lost to the jRPG market generally. That stagnant reality is a result, mostly, of a lack of attention to detail. Sadly, it is difficult to market attention to detail in the gaming industry. People do care about it, but marketing hates it because it's not flashy or impressive. Scale is what marketing sells and you can't sell attention to detail at scale. When you do, you have to take into account that your market is fairly static - so you either accept little room for growth or you try and find scale. Most companies opted for the latter, ignoring the former.

This is my song for this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OasBTTMxa_U

https://kafkafuura.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/maigoinu-to-ame-no-beat/

 

[Exentryk]

I think you need to give Japanese devs more credit, it breaks down into a few groups and most of them do have a pretty good idea of their audience.

Niche: Low-ish budget and sales, only localized by the grace of God, does well enough to keep going. Neptunia, Atelier, etc.
Semi-niche: Medium budget, generally designed to turn a profit with Japan alone, some concern for an international appeal but not enough to have a huge influence. Tales, most non-Persona SMT, lots of others
"AAA": Generally has a big audience worldwide, localization is a major factor that affects how the games are made. Final Fantasy, Pokemon, etc.

Some of these games misfire or do unexpectedly well, but I don't think there's a huge category of JRPGs that are missing millions of sales.

Yeah, that's fair. I was only considering large-scale console JRPGs like Final Fantasy, Xenoblade, Persona, etc, which want to sell worldwide to a large audience. I feel even the niche games should consider expanding their audience by taking in to account the things I mentioned in my previous post, but I guess they are not willing to take the risk.

 

[Parfait]

Tbh though, the whole HD jump killing AA development and all those increased costs makes me happy that the DS and PSP were options. I've seen people say that it allowed companies to run away from HD development, but I don't really see those same games getting developed without portables.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire#Reception

Not sure how accurate those sales numbers are, but Capcom in 2010 saying the Breath of Fire series was their most successful RPG series at 3.1 million units sold by the fifth game seems pretty dire. And tbh, it's more of these rpgs that are more obviously missing from consoles: they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts or Dragon Quest in Japan, but they're damn good, have the support of a major publisher, etc.

So it's a mix of those sorts of games becoming the TWEWY, Radiant Historia, and hell, even Kingdom Hearts BBS (it's bascially as mainline as the numbered releases) on portable consoles, along with the fact that the biggest hitters, like Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, going away.

Alot of the console jrpgs that DO become bigger, like Persona, or Xenoblade, would probably have qualified and really successful examples of those sorts of games, but because the biggest hitters never really came, they sorta became said biggest hitters.

The really shitty crap has always been there, relies on small budgets and fans that are willing to pay a ton for a bunch of stuff to make a profit. They're just more visible now because of lack of region lock, importing, and the dearth of those bigger titles to hide that crap.

I've mentioned this before, but this is the exact reason that jRPGs declined heavily in the HD era. Devs/Pubs ran away from HD consoles, and getting good in general, and the neptunias of this age are our payback for their hubris.

I owned a psp, a ds, and a 3ds now. I consider them, as someone who loves jRPGs, a bit of a waste. I practically never pick them up, unless I had Pokemon, Monster Hunter, or Pokemon to play. There's some other games that are enjoyable, yes, but I too ran to these systems because I wanted to play RPGs, and found that I fucking hated it. I hated sitting down in my chair, bent over my desk, looking at a tiny screen, with a much larger TV literally inches from my face. I never, and still do not, play RPGs in bite-sized chunks, which handhelds excel at. They're the games i play when I want many hours to disappear into the lifestream.

I wish they went a different route, but I can't see any. It's just been a pretty bad time. At least it looks like we're getting back into the swing of things, but I'm still crying about the funeral of Breath of Fire, the awful portable MonHuns, and the fact that Trails in the Sky haven't gotten a goty yet.

 

[Inuhanyou]

One could argue that average anime is a bastardization of the art of storytelling.

What is 'average anime', and how does it compare to other genres of fiction negatively and in what way?

 

[VendettaRed07]

No confidence in tradition and a constant feeling that they need to reinvent the wheel every time. I think Xenoblade and the Kingdom Hearts games are the only JRPGs without a battle system that didn't resemble a traditional turn based system that I really loved.

I feel like JRPGs fail way more often than not when they try and venture outside of more traditional systems.

Also, they are often too afraid to cut corners in order to help give a sense of scale. Like sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world to have your MC be a chibi character run around an overworld or something.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us, etc.

So your comparing them to the absolute best of western gaming writing, which you mentioned 2 studios, CD project red and Naughty Dog? Don't you think that's a bit unfair?

 

[Hyperactivity]

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us, etc.

First one has the benefit of having a series of novels to work off of
3rd is damn good
2nd one, haven't played, but based on other games in series, it's good writing in the sense that it executes it's story well, has fun character moments, and accepts it's place as a fun popcorn sort of adventure?

I'd love to not have to worry about playing a jrpg and seeing a bunch of the same overly pretentious cliches and plot for the rest of my life, but I also would guess you rarely expect quality writing from the AA games you get (like many lower budget games), and many of the AAA games out there have a crappy story in general.

If you're just looking at games from Japan, could you seriously say you can't think of games from there that had good writing? Not just talking about jrpgs here, because people seem to have this issue with a lot of japanese games in general, but you still get games like TWEWY, or 999, or Ace Attorney, etc. They aren't as common, but good games and well-written games have ALWAYS been rare (same way you might look back at older shows or games and decide that older generations overall were better; I doubt the forgettable games or many of the bad ones are coming to mind there)

 

[casiopao]

No confidence in tradition and a constant feeling that they need to reinvent the wheel every time

I think Xenoblade and the Kingdom Hearts games are the only JRPGs without a battle system that didn't resemble a traditional turn based system that I really loved.

I feel like JRPGs fail way more often than not when they try and venture outside of more traditional systems.

U no likey Radiata Stories?O_O

 

[WickedLaharl]

It had much better battle system, dungeon setting and no stupid day per move schedule thingy lol.

I really liked TMS a lot lol. Not to mention the boss and some battle can be soo challenging that it is not funny while Persona battle is just so boring.T_T (Tsubasa is god Tier waifu lol.^_^)



Thats my reaction everytime i heard someone said Ni no Kuni is good lol.^_^

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

Dark Cloud 2 is the best game, you take that back

 

[DMONKUMA]

I'm actually kinda hoping that Cygames Project:Awakening is a return to form of how memorable Jrpgs are. Whether or not it's a turn-based or action based game I hope that with the people they have they can make a great game.

 

[VendettaRed07]

U no likey Radiata Stories?O_O

I actually never played it hah. But I think I'll check it out if it's good.

I'm willing to try anything really; but I feel like too many developers over the past few years just tried something different out of fear that there game would be seen as too "old" and changed it for the sake of change.

 

[casiopao]

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

Lol. U need to broaden more of ur taste lol. Ni No Kuni is one of their worst Jrpg effort with the most boring battle system i had ever had. And i invest 35 hours into that game dammit.T_T

Layton is their superior product. Hell, even Fantasy Life is ten times better vs Ni No Kuni.

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us, etc.

Never played 1 and 2 but i feel the third one is a bit overrated right? The story is nice but i feel that i have seen it many times before except for the ending which leave bad taste to me.T_T And, u are comparing 2 highly cinematic games vs Jrpg which needs to had more than 50 hours gameplay. Isn't that difficult to compare? As UC4 and TLOU will had more compact story while Jrpg will had tons of filler.

Witcher 3 is good one i guess seeing from many reviews.

I actually never played it hah. But I think I'll check it out if it's good.

I'm willing to try anything really; but I feel like too many developers over the past few years just tried something different out of fear that there game would be seen as too "old" and changed it for the sake of change.

If u had DS or 3DS. Go get INFINITE SPACE. My best Jrpg in DS Era. Had one of the best Story in the scale of multiple galaxy!!!.^_^

 

[mikefrails]

What is 'average anime', and how does it compare to other genres of fiction negatively and in what way?

Most other genres are not anime. My point was Japan + plot driven writing = something along the lines of anime most of the time. Certain clichés and plot devices persist in anime more often than not and find their way to VNs, LNs, video games, etc.

 

[Daeoc]

I've mentioned this before, but this is the exact reason that jRPGs declined heavily in the HD era. Devs/Pubs ran away from HD consoles, and getting good in general, and the neptunias of this age are our payback for their hubris.

I owned a psp, a ds, and a 3ds now. I consider them, as someone who loves jRPGs, a bit of a waste. I practically never pick them up, unless I had Pokemon, Monster Hunter, or Pokemon to play. There's some other games that are enjoyable, yes, but I too ran to these systems because I wanted to play RPGs, and found that I fucking hated it. I hated sitting down in my chair, bent over my desk, looking at a tiny screen, with a much larger TV literally inches from my face. I never, and still do not, play RPGs in bite-sized chunks, which handhelds excel at. They're the games i play when I want many hours to disappear into the lifestream.

I wish they went a different route, but I can't see any. It's just been a pretty bad time. At least it looks like we're getting back into the swing of things, but I'm still crying about the funeral of Breath of Fire, the awful portable MonHuns, and the fact that Trails in the Sky haven't gotten a goty yet.

This is pretty much how I feel. I miss the mid-tier console JRPGs, the top-tier JRPG devs are not making the top-tier JRPGs they used to before HD consoles. All the budget just gets spent on marketing and graphics. . and yeah, Breath of Fire 6.. what a joke.

 

[VendettaRed07]

If u had DS or 3DS. Go get INFINITE SPACE. My best Jrpg in DS Era. Had one of the best Story in the scale of multiple galaxy!!!.^_^

Ok cool, sounds good. Haven't played that yet either. I've needed something to play on my 3DS since I beat Fire Emblem anyhow

 

[WickedLaharl]

Dark Cloud 2 is the best game, you take that back

I remember kind of liking the bit of it that I played back when it came out but I doubt I would feel the same way today.

 

[Fou-Lu]

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

Dark cloud 1 and 2
The Layton games
Dragon Quest 8
Jeanne d'Arc
Fantasy Life

 

[casiopao]

Ok cool, sounds good. Haven't played that yet either. I've needed something to play on my 3DS since I beat Fire Emblem anyhow

More people should play that game lol. One of my favorite game till now.^_^

on 3DS though, u no play 7th Dragon? That one is also nice one too.^_^

 

[Inuhanyou]

Most other genres are not anime. My point was Japan + plot driven writing = something along the lines of anime most of the time. Certain clichés and plot devices persist in anime more often than not and find their way to VNs, LNs, video games, etc.

But you can say that about western media tropes mostly going into western game territory as well can't you?

I mean, anime, manga and such are usually the standards for Japanese trope conventions. My point is essentially that, what exactly is your standard of anime, and what exactly leads one to generalize that as inferior?

I remember kind of liking the bit of it that I played back when it came out but I doubt I would feel the same way today.

Well, DQ 8 and Dark Cloud 2 are your best bets. I would still recommend them today.

 

[Ninjimbo]

It's kind of shame that Tokyo Mirage Sessions is so willfully ignored. If it had come out on the PS4, people would be hailing it a savior of the genre.

 

[casiopao]

Dark cloud 1 and 2
The Layton games
Dragon Quest 8
Jeanne d'Arc
Fantasy Life

Inazuma Eleven and LBX is also great. Youkai Watch is not really my taste but i sure liked it much more vs White Knight Chronicle or even Ni No Kuni lol.

It's kind of shame that Tokyo Mirage Sessions is so willfully ignored. If it had come out on the PS4, people would be hailing it a savior of the genre.

The worst of all is due to the game being so niche, i can say bye bye to any possible Doujin release of Tsubasa, Kyria and Elie.T_T NOOOOOOO.T_T

 

[WickedLaharl]

Dark cloud 1 and 2
The Layton games
Dragon Quest 8
Jeanne d'Arc
Fantasy Life

Nope/maybe
Not for me so nope
Hired help
Nope
Nope

That I saw so many people call Star Ocean 5 underrated really put into perspective for me how far the genre has fallen.

I didn't like a single thing about the game. The critics were right.

I can't believe tri-ace even screwed up the battle system. Just a dull game all around.

 

[kurahador]

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

Such a sad life you lead if you think Layton franchise, Fantasy Life, Dark Cloud 1&2, Jeanne D'Arc and Dragon Quest 8 is anything but good.

 

[Gator86]

Dark Cloud 2 is the best game, you take that back

Holy fuck no. I just picked it up when it came out on PS4 and I couldn't make it past the 4th dungeon. The gameplay is so profoundly unenjoyable it's difficult to compare it to something without sounding like hyperbole.

OP, I feel your pain. It was my favorite genre growing up and I have nothing but good memories from dozens of amazing titles. Now, it's basically a dead genre. It's depressing.

 

[Fou-Lu]

Nope/maybe
Not for me so nope
Hired help
Nope
Nope

So you just don't like good games. Got it.

Edit: This came across as too snarky, I am sure from your username and avatar that we share taste in several games. I just can't imagine disliking all those games I mentioned that are so good.

 

[casiopao]

So you just don't like good games. Got it.

His taste does not align with LV-5.^_^ LBX and Inazuma Eleven is also good guys. Don't forget about those two.T_T

 

[Inuhanyou]

Holy fuck no. I just picked it up when it came out on PS4 and I couldn't make it past the 4th dungeon. The gameplay is so profoundly unenjoyable it's difficult to compare it to something without sounding like hyperbole.

OP, I feel your pain. It was my favorite genre growing up and I have nothing but good memories from dozens of amazing titles. Now, it's basically a dead genre. It's depressing.

That's the first time i've heard anyone bad mouth the combat. Seems perfectly fine to me for a PS2 game's action RPG standards.

 

[mikefrails]

But you can say that about western media tropes mostly going into western game territory as well can't you?

I mean, anime, manga and such are usually the standards for Japanese trope conventions. My point is essentially that, what exactly is your standard of anime, and what exactly leads one to generalize that as inferior?

Anime is generally style over substance. It's in the medium's DNA to lean towards the trashy side.

I'm watching Ranma 1/2 now and nothing has changed since then. Anime writing is just like that. The medium draws upon itself for inspiration and is wholly unique in that sense.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

I can't speak for all JRPGs (don't really play them much any more), but Rogue Galaxy was never that good anyway. The level design is terrible and I didn't like the plot all that much either. I've found myself tempted to pick it up a number of times on PS4, but I have to remind myself that I didn't enjoy it very much first time around.

 

[VendettaRed07]

More people should play that game lol. One of my favorite game till now.^_^

on 3DS though, u no play 7th Dragon? That one is also nice one too.^_^

I actually bought it, but haven't opened it yet lol it's on my backlog for sure

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

 

[Snakeyes]

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us, etc.

Only one of those has decent, not great, writing, and it's definitely not Uncharted 4.

 

[Exentryk]

So your comparing them to the absolute best of western gaming writing, which you mentioned 2 studios, CD project red and Naughty Dog? Don't you think that's a bit unfair?

No. This is the gold standard of writing in the west right now, and that's what the Japanese devs that want to sell their AAA JRPGs in the west should to be aiming for in the current market.

If you're just looking at games from Japan, could you seriously say you can't think of games from there that had good writing? Not just talking about jrpgs here, because people seem to have this issue with a lot of japanese games in general, but you still get games like TWEWY, or 999, or Ace Attorney, etc. They aren't as common, but good games and well-written games have ALWAYS been rare (same way you might look back at older shows or games and decide that older generations overall were better; I doubt the forgettable games or many of the bad ones are coming to mind there)

999 was excellent, and so was VLR. Haven't played TWEWY or Ace Attorney, so can't comment. I've enjoyed lots of JRPGs growing up like Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, etc., and the last one I enjoyed was Xenoblade 1.

Looking back at some modern JRPGs I've played - FFXIII, FFXIII-2, LR, Star Ocean 5, I am Setsuna, Dragon's Dogma, etc., have all had average to poor writing and story telling.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Anime is generally style over substance. It's in the medium's DNA to lean towards the trashy side.

I'm watching Ranma 1/2 now and nothing has changed since then. Anime writing is just like that. The medium draws upon itself for inspiration and is wholly unique in that sense.

I...can't really see what your referring to in that sense. Your saying that anime is predisposed to being trashy..and then you bring up an example of a Rumiko takashi comedy from the early 90s?

What does that have to do with literally every other anime or manga property out there that is not a subset genre?

 

[patapuf]

JRPG's are fine for the most part in terms of systems. Some are better some are worse but that's true of all genres.

It's the story/quest structure part where i feel they are weakest though, i do feel this aspect has gotten worse and that it's not just me that's older.

 

[Inuhanyou]

No. This is the gold standard of writing in the west right now, and that's what the Japanese devs that want to sell their AAA JRPGs in the west should to be aiming for in the current market.

I guess a problem i have with your argument is that, personally speaking, i don't really like Uncharted's writing in general(atleast the trilogy, i have not played 4), it feels like a gaming stand in for standard hollywood adventure flick that would not pass the mustard anywhere else.

I understand that people like that, but if we're talking about actual story and character based adventures, that is not what i would put anywhere near the top.

Last of Us i can understand because it actually does focus on the characters in a real way, has certain twists in the story and generally can be called a work that tries to push western gaming narratives away from straight forward plots designed to make a game setting.

I guess the real question is, what are the standards for video game writing in general that JRPG's are supposedly competing against?

I would say that UC is not any example for shining narrative. It fufills its designation as a B-grade hollywood flick that pushes the gameplay along, but is that really the standard Japaneses RPG's should be competing against?

Last of Us is a single game, and The witcher 3 is also but a single game, based on a novel series.

 

[Lindsay]

I've played a buncha rpgs this year from 1993 up to 2016 (going by US release dates). I think the one major thing I can point to as being different between new & old is the addition of pure filler quests/missions. This largely coincides with 'em moving to handhelds in a big way. Sure rpgs had sidequests in the past but rarely in the form of there being something like an ! over an npcs head and them saying they want X item or for ya to kill X baddie.

Otherwise the tried & true tropes of hometown being destroyed at/near the start, amnesiac heroes, and heavily relying on technology from an ancient civilization is still there in alotta these games.

I guess "quality of life" stuff such as quick warping to other places, skipping battle animations, an being able to pause/skip cutscenes have become more prevalent which is all nice an good. So in that way I feel like they've gotten better.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If you don't care for handhelds.....

..... they're mostly ON handhelds.

Looking for quality jrpgs these days and "not caring" for handhelds is as absurd as wondering where all the great real-time strategy games are without caring for PCs. You go where the games are; otherwise, stop your whining.

"Jrpgs are dead!!11" "no I hate handheld gaming won't try11!!" Lol

*sigh*

Is it really that hard to understand why some people don't like handheld gaming vs console/PC gaming, and why they lament the near-disappearance of an entire genre (or at least the lack of quality) from consoles/PC?

Come on. This isn't about having to choose a console here. Handhelds have incredibly obvious limitations compared to console/PC gaming (I can't believe I actually hacve to list them, guess people are really that dense):
- Tiny-ass screen
- Painful on my hands*
- Lower production values due to weaker hardware.

"Quit your whining" is a shitty dismissive attitude. Handhelds are not suited to everyone. It's OK to wish for high production values JRPGs on a larger screen and it's perfectly understandable that many people would miss that. That they would miss the days of Xenogears and Panzer Dragoon Saga and they would like for such games to return to the non-microscopic screen. Jeanne d'Arc is the last handheld JRPG I played to completion. I've been trying to continue my playthrough of Tactics Ogre on the PSP, but I just never play it because I don't have the motivation to pick up the damn handheld for the reasons above.

* Yes, I tried the special plastic grip for the 3DS. It doesn't help. I quit handheld gaming for good because I was sick of how uncomfortable and even painful it would get, despite not even playing for long hours end on. I'm glad the PS TV exists, by the way, since I could finally play Ys Celceta on my TV, and I wish there were an equivalent for the 3DS. Guess I can hope the NX will support something like that...

*prefers old school turn based RPGs* > *is told RPG is old school* > *still gets disappointed*

...That's not why I was disappointed. Anyway, I might pick it up during a sale some time and end up disagreeing with Sanctuary, so w/e.

What is your standard of good writing? Is the question

I know someone said "The Last of Us" etc. but to actually answer this question from a JRPG perspective, here would be JRPGs I consider to have good writing or at least a good, enjoyable story and characters (sometimes the writing itself is iffy due to a weak translation, especially the older the game is):

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden II
- Shining Force III

A-tier
- Xenogears
- Tactics Ogre *
- Breath of Fire III
- Trails in the Sky FC/SC
- Final Fantasy VI
- Suikoden III and V

B-tier
- Wild ARMs
- Suikoden I
- Final Fantasy VII
- Vandal Hearts
- Phantasy Star IV
- Chrono Trigger
- Skies of Arcadia *
- Jeanne d'Arc

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Also, I have not played Trails of Cold Steel or Vagrant Story yet, but I heard good things about the latter and Cold Steel II at least...

I've mentioned this before, but this is the exact reason that jRPGs declined heavily in the HD era. Devs/Pubs ran away from HD consoles, and getting good in general, and the neptunias of this age are our payback for their hubris.

I owned a psp, a ds, and a 3ds now. I consider them, as someone who loves jRPGs, a bit of a waste. I practically never pick them up, unless I had Pokemon, Monster Hunter, or Pokemon to play. There's some other games that are enjoyable, yes, but I too ran to these systems because I wanted to play RPGs, and found that I fucking hated it. I hated sitting down in my chair, bent over my desk, looking at a tiny screen, with a much larger TV literally inches from my face. I never, and still do not, play RPGs in bite-sized chunks, which handhelds excel at. They're the games i play when I want many hours to disappear into the lifestream.

I wish they went a different route, but I can't see any. It's just been a pretty bad time. At least it looks like we're getting back into the swing of things, but I'm still crying about the funeral of Breath of Fire, the awful portable MonHuns, and the fact that Trails in the Sky haven't gotten a goty yet.

OMG YES. Thank you.

 

[Parfait]

Ni no Kuni is the only good game level 5 has ever made.

Dark cloud 1 and 2
The Layton games
Dragon Quest 8
Jeanne d'Arc
Fantasy Life

Nope/maybe
Not for me so nope
Hired help
Nope
Nope

Having not played Jeanne or Fanta Life, I'll withhold my opinion.

Dark Cloud 1 was revolutionary, but not good.

Dark Cloud 2 was pretty damn good, I have nothing but good memories of it. Give it a shot.

Even if they were hired help for DQ8, DQ8 is also easily in the top 3 of the best PS2 games period. I'm so happy, so so happy, that it's finally getting a HD rema-

Where was I

I was immensely disappointed with Ni no Kuni, however. Studio Ghibli aside, I just couldn't get into it. I am interested in NnK2, however, and hopefully the game part of it will be much more interesting.

 

[Alcotholic]

You bought Rogue Galaxy and not Dark Cloud 2? For shame OP. What else did you expect?

I just find it funny that you based all your opinions on a single game to begin with. You should try some other ones that actually have a good mix of things.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear to begin with, but I was using Rogue Galaxy as an example of trends that I had noticed over time with the stagnation of JRPGs. The only games with which I can feel confident in showing that JRPGs have the potential to stay relevant are TWEWY and Persona games. Based on my experience, they mostly subverted the tropes, stagnated mechanics and general issues I have with the genre. They avoid being campy and have unique plots to follow with interesting character development. The fighting system in both games are simple, but have a lot of depth. Every mechanic TWEWY has works in tandem with each other. While combat can be overwhelming at times, the developers allowed you to have as much control as you wanted.
And while persona 4 didn't have a fighting system too off the wall, it at least didn't have a mess of conflicting mechanics in an attempt to make things interesting. The developers put thought into how things worked together, like how your relationships with your peers changed how you fought in battle. It just made sense and it was unique.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I know someone said "The Last of Us" etc. but to actually answer this question from a JRPG perspective, here would be JRPGs I consider to have good writing or at least a good, enjoyable story and characters (sometimes the writing itself is iffy due to a weak translation, especially the older the game is):

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden II
- Shining Force III

A-tier
- Xenogears
- Tactics Ogre *
- Breath of Fire III
- Trails in the Sky FC/SC
- Final Fantasy VI
- Suikoden III and V

B-tier
- Wild ARMs
- Suikoden I
- Final Fantasy VII
- Vandal Hearts
- Phantasy Star IV
- Chrono Trigger
- Skies of Arcadia *

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Also, I have not played Trails of Cold Steel or Vagrant Story yet, but I heard good things about the latter and Cold Steel II at least...

Have you played The Digital Devil Saga duology, or the Raidou games? I personally think that, when Atlus wants to make a great story with interesting characters, they do it very well, and based on your list there, it seems like these are the kinds of gritty, less campy games you would like to see more of.

 

[WickedLaharl]

So you just don't like good games. Got it.

Edit: This came across as too snarky, I am sure from your username and avatar that we share taste in several games. I just can't imagine disliking all those games I mentioned that are so good.

Lol don't worry about it I'm not being super serious.

Spoiler

Except the part about idea factory which I am deadly serious about.

 

[Exentryk]

I guess the real question is, what are the standards for video game writing in general that JRPG's are supposedly competing against?

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us.

 

[Snakeyes]

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden II
- Shining Force III

A-tier
- Xenogears
- Tactics Ogre *
- Breath of Fire III
- Trails in the Sky FC/SC
- Final Fantasy VI
- Suikoden III and V

B-tier
- Wild ARMs
- Suikoden I
- Final Fantasy VII
- Vandal Hearts
- Phantasy Star IV
- Chrono Trigger
- Skies of Arcadia *

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Now we're talking. Adding to that;

Ogre Battle 64
Paper Mario TTYD
DDS 1 & 2
SMT: Nocturne
TWEWY
Dragon Quest IV
Dragon Quest V
Persona 2

And you've got a pretty good list of good JRPG stories/writing.

 

[Yu Narukami]

That trope rule no.19 made me wonder who the main villain in FF15 is.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

999 was excellent, and so was VLR. Haven't played TWEWY or Ace Attorney, so can't comment. I've enjoyed lots of JRPGs growing up like Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, etc., and the last one I enjoyed was Xenoblade 1.

Looking back at some modern JRPGs I've played - FFXIII, FFXIII-2, LR, Star Ocean 5, I am Setsuna, Dragon's Dogma, etc., have all had average to poor writing and story telling.

Ooof. Not sure I want to take your opinion on writing seriously after this. I mean, it's true that the games you listed have poor writing (Dragon's Dogma wasn't that bad, mind, but not very good either, though I don't really consider it a JRPG either), but 999 has absolutely awful writing.

Have you played The Digital Devil Saga duology, or the Raidou games? I personally think that, when Atlus wants to make a great story with interesting characters, they do it very well, and based on your list there, it seems like these are the kinds of gritty, less campy games you would like to see more of.

Nope. Never heard of Raidou.

 

[Limality]

For now, play Trails of Cold Steel 1. Please thank me, and anybody else who already suggested this, later....

 

[Famassu]

My biggest issue with the modern RPG is the completely nonsensical and overly complicated storylines. I still have no idea what the fuck happened in Final Fantasy X and that was simple compared to a lot of modern JRPGs.

FF15 looks like goddamn mess, storyline wise.

I don't know if its a translation issue, but the plots have been my biggest issue....that and horrible character designs.

I prefer high fantasy compared to steampunk guys with zippers and belts everywhere.

Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I also prefer turn based to active combat where you control 1 character at a time.

Needless to say, I'm skipping FF15.

Eeeeexcept FFXV is supposed to have a fairly simple and straightforward story. FFXV characters also don't have "zippers and belts everywhere".

And putting dumb, arbitrary limitations like "NO CELL PHONES OR CARS IN MUH JRPGS" to any vast genre/group of games like JRPGs is silly and limits the creative freedom of developers to create whatever kinds of worlds they want. Phones and cars and other kind of "modern" technology are also not something new in JRPGs. Not to FF. Not to JRPGs in general. You have such a simpleminded, black & white and limited view of this subject it's just sad.