Dungeon Crawlers or Wizardry clones are kind of their own niche and subgenre. When I say JRPG, I'm referring to the countless turn-based battle systems remarkably similar to Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy in the 16, 32, and 128 bit eras that died out a bit in the seventh generation outside of mobile gaming devices. Hundreds of similarly playing titles that could support a genre canon/lineage. One recent entry would be the Digimon Cyber Sleuth game or Trails in the Sky.
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Why are modern JRPGs such a mess?
- Thread starter Alcotholic
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Dungeon Crawlers or Wizardry clones are kind of their own niche and subgenre. When I say JRPG, I'm referring to the countless turn-based battle systems remarkably similar to Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy in the 16, 32, and 128 bit eras that died out a bit in the seventh generation outside of mobile gaming devices. Hundreds of similarly playing titles that could support a genre canon/lineage. One recent entry would be the Digimon Cyber Sleuth game or Trails in the Sky.
CaviarMeths
Member
And even EO is also a niche series itself, but manages to outsell Compile Heart's new thing by nearly 8x. The comparison is even more stark when you compare typical otaku games to JRPGs that actually have mainstream appeal such as Pokemon or Dragon Quest.
A handful of games that sell to the same group of 20,000 people every time isn't dominating the market.
clay_ghost
Member
Trails make uses of Tropes and then turn them around or invoked them into something more meaningful ( Estelle is not just a shallow love interest for example.) What really make Trails different/special is that it's basically a living world where every NPC have their own lives, have relationship with each other and reacts to events (either their own personal events , towards the parties members or current affairs) on their own, their dialogues changes after every single events in the games.
Kamina
Golden Boy
But OPs negative example Rouge Galaxy counts as such despite being from 2007 (Japan even 2005)?
Otakumegane
Member
If you desire systems with cohesion and relevant theming of these systems just play Xenoblade (The 1st one).
Now there's a game that handled sub-systems right.
Now there's a game that handled sub-systems right.
Ooo. Lol. I read it wrong. And yeah i agree with u 100% there. The Jrpg which does not fully focus on otaku pandering usually will sold more vs those who totally pander towards otaku market as otaku market is just a small market.
Hehe.^_^ I really love Xenoblade battle lol. it is like the full improvement of FF12 battle system which i hate. Hell, even nowadays, i hope i can love more Jrpg like Xenoblade series.^_^(TMS is damn good too though.^^)
SatelliteOfLove
Member
It was a red herring argument, as it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong in his statement, the original fact still exists.
True. I find myself wondering where they'll go after the handheld market fades.
In many ways, it's Persona 4.5: Fire Emblem Edition. It has more anime tropes and lacks the gravitas of a Persona game, but there's still a ton of good stuff in there.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
There, that's what I'm talking about. You define a "JRPG" by similarity to Dragon Quest, and if it deviates too much from that basic formula it is no longer a JRPG. Hence your initial complaint that JRPGs "haven't evolved" becomes nonsensical, since you've set up a definition by which it is impossible for them to evolve.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I can't believe you just used Rogue Galaxy as the poster boy for the downfall of JRPG.
NO, Rogue Galaxy was not perfect, but it's still a good game, far better than most JRPG on PS3 onwards, and its factory system is one of the most complex and unique item creation mechanics in the genre, so I disagree with you saying it tried nothing new.
NO, Rogue Galaxy was not perfect, but it's still a good game, far better than most JRPG on PS3 onwards, and its factory system is one of the most complex and unique item creation mechanics in the genre, so I disagree with you saying it tried nothing new.
Mobile? Sega's Hortensia Saga had one of the best stories i had played for Jrpg in all these recent years. If u are those who wanted FE old style kind of story again with Suikoden battle system, that game is the BALLS.
Lol. Comparing LoGH to anything is just cruel. LoGH is something totally different as it really focus on expanding the history,culture, background story of even any insignificant character and keep pushing the story. I don't think there is any anime that come close to that masterpiece.T_T SIEG KAISER!!!
Aldermann vs LoGH is not comparable for me as Aldermann comes from Light Novel vs LoGH which is a fully fledged novel. LN is never going to be able to be as detailed as Novel so, Aldermann already loses a lot there. But i do find their effort is not that bad as it also tries to expand the universe and the states of the Empire which is falling badly vs other LN war story which is just bad.T_T
JustSomeone
Member
You just got older. JRPGs have always been like that.
Not necessarily. FFXI/XII, FFXIV, FFXIII, Xenoblade do decent jobs of effectively overhauling the ATB system with varying degree of success, and ATB being an effective overhaul of the old turn-based gameplay. I've always thought of early MMORPG combat as building on ATB (and making it suitable to the format of course).
But JRPGs are JRPGs, CRPGs are CRPGs, fighting games are fighting games, and so on and so forth. I mean, you wouldn't expect fighting games to play like shmups would you? You wouldn't expect a third-person shooter to play like a fighting game would you?
It's possible to push a genre and make it marketable without having to completely change how a genre plays. Look at how vanilla Uncharted plays and look at its success.
I think the bigger issue here is that CRPGs/WRPGs and JRPGs have given way to Action RPGs as a whole. Action mechanics are simply more marketable.
No no no no no.
It had much better battle system, dungeon setting and no stupid day per move schedule thingy lol.
I really liked TMS a lot lol. Not to mention the boss and some battle can be soo challenging that it is not funny while Persona battle is just so boring.T_T (Tsubasa is god Tier waifu lol.^_^)
Thats my reaction everytime i heard someone said Ni no Kuni is good lol.^_^
I think people simply are exaggerating the success of many of the SNES/PSX era RPGS. A lot of those series don't even exist any more and there weren't any replacement. Add in FF's missteps (which generally feel like SE simply try to do too much every time), others going portable only and you have the current situation. The audience just may not be there any more. Games have to sell a shitload now to justify their existence. Which means, you either create this game that appeals to the west but potentially alienate your home base. Or double down on your home's taste and alienate the west. Or try a weird happy medium and hope it works. Shit is hard.
CaviarMeths
Member
If it makes you feel any better, the 3DS will outsell the PS2 in Japan by the end of this year and become the 3rd best selling dedicated game platform ever.
With the astronomical success of both DS and PSP, I think last gen was a bit of an outlier. The combined sales of 3DS and Vita are around 26m units, which is substantially higher than the GBA and not too far off from the GB/GBC's 32m.
Paradox me
Member
Honestly, I put more thought into my setup in Lightning Returns than probably any other job system in the series (aside from FFXI). I don't think I would have beaten the game without really digging into the systems and setting things up right, where as with FFIII, V, Bravely Default, etc. I always manage to limp across the finish line with bare minimum effort and just about any party make up.
Sounds more like he isn't playing any JRPG's at all.
*prefers old school turn based RPGs* > *is told RPG is old school* > *still gets disappointed*
I don't get why either. Maybe if they were playing the original first Japanese release? But seeing when these complaints popped up, no, they were not. There's a reason they added all those extra features for the For the Sequel/all localized versions.
DanielJr82
Member
I think JRPGs of the past... a lot of it was in your head. I mean they are sprites with text bubbles, not detailed digital actors with dialogue. I hate to say it, but it's like comparing a book to a movie, your mind will always paint the better picture.
Xenoblade Chronicles is certainly not immune to those tropes, but I think it also does a great job of turning some of them on their heads, and in clever ways.
I cant think of any other jrpg that was that long, and I straight away wanted to start again. It even rewards playing through again with heaps of foreshadowing, which at the time meant nothing to me, but after finishing it my jaw was on the floor.
Its in my top 5 games of all time tho, so I might be biased
I cant think of any other jrpg that was that long, and I straight away wanted to start again. It even rewards playing through again with heaps of foreshadowing, which at the time meant nothing to me, but after finishing it my jaw was on the floor.
Its in my top 5 games of all time tho, so I might be biased
Scrooge McDuck
Member
I must admit I'm lost in your genre definition there. You count turn-based --> ATB --> FFXIII as a natural progression within a similar battle system, yet Wizardy is its own different subgenre?
Grim Patron
Member
"Jrpgs are dead!!11" "no I hate handheld gaming won't try11!!" Lol
You bought Rogue Galaxy and not Dark Cloud 2? For shame OP. What else did you expect?
I just find it funny that you based all your opinions on a single game to begin with. You should try some other ones that actually have a good mix of things.
I just find it funny that you based all your opinions on a single game to begin with. You should try some other ones that actually have a good mix of things.
Agreed the fan service and doubling down on otaku has really damaged the genre by making it unappealing to mainstream people.
Also though fans even here on this site trying to confine what a jrpg is into narrow borders then complaining about a lack of innovation.
NintendosBooger
Member
The transition to handhelds wasn't sudden. Didn't happen overnight and catch the OP offguard like WHOA WHAT HAPPENED. It's 10 years in the making, going back to the NDS/PSP. By now he should know that's where the better jrpgs are.
Except that is true with all games. Other genres evolved better to handle that change, whereas it seems JRPGs haven't as much.
What saddens me though is that there still are amazingly creative ideas in the JRPG genre, but no one seems to be able to put it together in a whole package.
I wish it was only that small section that was bad with Bravely Default. That game could have been amazing if they just put some sort of effort into the horseshit story and writing. They're so bad I couldn't deal with it to get to the bad section. Gameplay and artstyle were amazing, it just needed something like an FF4-6 story.
I can kind of see where that argument comes from. Roguelikes and tile-based dungeons crawlers are the primordial soup that both J- and W-RPGs evolved from, and new entries in that genre are still being made.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Yeah, because Wizardry clones/Dungeon Crawlers have very specific and important gameplay dynamics other than being simply turn-based or not. Some are not turn-based. Some are partially turn-based.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_crawl
This, I think, gives a reasonable explanation as to why.
Same as MMORPG. MMORPG can have action-based combat, but it wouldn't change its more important, defining qualities. Or games of other genres with RPG elements, like Devil May Cry. It doesn't become an RPG or even an ARPG.
True! But that's like five titles and two are MMOs (which introduce vastly important dynamics). They're outnumbered and in FF13's case, it's not preferable. I don't think XII's change was that big, all considered. It just made it harder to manage combat while the fundamentals of ATB were still in play. Like I clarified before:
I don't think three titles over three generations really negate that.
mikefrails
Banned
If you get Japanese people writing a plot about more than four characters, it's going to be anime tier.
Took the words out of my mouth
Exentryk
Member
Console JRPG devs should reevaluate their target audience. Console games are not selling well in Japan, but they are in the West. Devs need to be asking questions like - who is our primary audience, what age group are we targeting, what's the standard of writing and storytelling, etc.
I still play JRPGs, but mainly for their combat systems. I would love to get a complete package though, with both writing and combat being good.
I still play JRPGs, but mainly for their combat systems. I would love to get a complete package though, with both writing and combat being good.
What is 'anime' tier? That is too broad a generalization to pinpoint IMO.
What is your standard of good writing? Is the question
As someone who praises Star Ocean 4 even I couldn't handle Rogue Galaxy for too long. The areas suffered from 'way too goddamn long' syndrome in a way that Dank Cloud 2 avoided by at least separating the areas on a menu. Bad voice acting was the meme back then, practically every jrpg had some awful dubbing. It's no joke that i feel that FF12 was one of the first truly excellent dubs I ever heard. Even FFX was decent by other game's standards.
That said, I recommend Star Ocean 4.
That said, I recommend Star Ocean 4.
Sudden or not doesn't mean his missing them (or what he thought of them) isn't real or shouldn't be voiced. Some people don't like playing on handhelds.
Hyperactivity
Banned
But, I mean, you wouldn't really use the lack of visual novels like Ace Attorney or Zero Escape series on consoles to judge the genre, right?
Or strategy games, or puzzle games. Those are other genres that are bigger on portables these days.
Tbh, there's quite a bit of overlap between PCs and portables in the sorts of games they do well.
I see where the gap is being felt, because alot of these other genres were never so big on home consoles, so the lack of truly great heavy hitters on consoles is really obvious. Every E3, very few games for portables are going to get too much focus, so people aren't thinking of them as much.
Tbh though, the whole HD jump killing AA development and all those increased costs makes me happy that the DS and PSP were options. I've seen people say that it allowed companies to run away from HD development, but I don't really see those same games getting developed without portables.
To give you an idea of what I'm talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire#Reception
Not sure how accurate those sales numbers are, but Capcom in 2010 saying the Breath of Fire series was their most successful RPG series at 3.1 million units sold by the fifth game seems pretty dire. And tbh, it's more of these rpgs that are more obviously missing from consoles: they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts or Dragon Quest in Japan, but they're damn good, have the support of a major publisher, etc.
So it's a mix of those sorts of games becoming the TWEWY, Radiant Historia, and hell, even Kingdom Hearts BBS (it's bascially as mainline as the numbered releases) on portable consoles, along with the fact that the biggest hitters, like Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, going away.
Alot of the console jrpgs that DO become bigger, like Persona, or Xenoblade, would probably have qualified and really successful examples of those sorts of games, but because the biggest hitters never really came, they sorta became said biggest hitters.
The really shitty crap has always been there, relies on small budgets and fans that are willing to pay a ton for a bunch of stuff to make a profit. They're just more visible now because of lack of region lock, importing, and the dearth of those bigger titles to hide that crap.
tl;dr: Your Wild Arms, Xenosagas, Breath of Fires, NEVER sold well enough to ever continue onto HD consoles, especially the 1st gen of HD consoles. The games that did sell well enough were either better suited to go/stay portable for sales/audience (Dragon Quest, Pokemon) or disappointed/delayed forever (FF for all last gen until 14 2.0?, FFV13, KH3, etc.)
You're overrating the previous success of the genre
I think you need to give Japanese devs more credit, it breaks down into a few groups and most of them do have a pretty good idea of their audience.
Niche: Low-ish budget and sales, focused on a relatively small audience even within Japan, only localized by the grace of God, does well enough to keep going. Neptunia, Atelier, etc.
Semi-niche: Medium budget, generally designed to turn a profit with Japan alone, some concern for an international appeal but not enough to have a huge influence. Tales, most non-Persona SMT, lots of others
"AAA": Generally has a big audience worldwide, localization is a major factor that affects how the games are made. Final Fantasy, Pokemon, etc.
Some of these games fall in between these groups, misfire, or do unexpectedly well, but I don't think there's a huge category of JRPGs that are missing millions of sales.
Exentryk
Member
Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us, etc.
mikefrails
Banned
One could argue that average anime is a bastardization of the art of storytelling.