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[mikefrails]

I...can't really see what your referring to in that sense. Your saying that anime is predisposed to being trashy..and then you bring up an example of a Rumiko takashi comedy from the early 90s?

What does that have to do with literally every other anime or manga property out there that is not a subset genre?

I gave you facts outside of the Ranma example and you sidestepped them.

 

[Cyrano]

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Suikoden II
- Shining Force III

A-tier
- Xenogears
- Tactics Ogre *
- Breath of Fire III
- Trails in the Sky FC/SC
- Final Fantasy VI
- Suikoden III and V

B-tier
- Wild ARMs
- Suikoden I
- Final Fantasy VII
- Vandal Hearts
- Phantasy Star IV
- Chrono Trigger
- Skies of Arcadia *
- Jeanne d'Arc

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Also, I have not played Trails of Cold Steel or Vagrant Story yet, but I heard good things about the latter and Cold Steel II at least...

I got about 20 hours into FC and the reason I ended up dropping it (aside from the at times tedious combat) was due to the writing. Is there a turn at some point or is the writing just consistent throughout?

I'd also consider Chrono Trigger's writing to be meandering, even though it's also my favorite game.

edit: Also, if you haven't already, play SMT Nocturne.

 

[Some Nobody]

Anime is generally style over substance. It's in the medium's DNA to lean towards the trashy side.

I'm watching Ranma 1/2 now and nothing has changed since then. Anime writing is just like that. The medium draws upon itself for inspiration and is wholly unique in that sense.

I feel like you're really just arguing about Sturgeon's Law. When you get right down to it there are a ton of anime that are really excellent and worth watching and you're ignoring them to bring up some microwaved pap. This is the equivalent of telling me all superhero TV shows are bad because Arrow is garbage while brushing Daredevil and Jessica Jones to the side.

As far as "modern" J-RPGs being bad....I feel like there are three eras for J-RPGs. Their origin era for the NES/SNES, the expansion era with PS1/PS2, and the HD/handheld era. Modern can really only be the last era, so we're talking about games from 2006 to present.

And while I've got nothing against the creator of this thread, I feel like the OP itself is weak. I haven't picked up J-RPGs heavily since the PS1 era (on PS2 I played maybe seven J-RPGs?) so for me to come pick up one game even on the PS3 and then declare the J-RPGs are garbage now would be way out of line, even if I was essentially accurate. Why? I'd just be guessing. WTF do I know?

 

[Hyperactivity]

I've mentioned this before, but this is the exact reason that jRPGs declined heavily in the HD era. Devs/Pubs ran away from HD consoles, and getting good in general, and the neptunias of this age are our payback for their hubris.

I owned a psp, a ds, and a 3ds now. I consider them, as someone who loves jRPGs, a bit of a waste. I practically never pick them up, unless I had Pokemon, Monster Hunter, or Pokemon to play. There's some other games that are enjoyable, yes, but I too ran to these systems because I wanted to play RPGs, and found that I fucking hated it. I hated sitting down in my chair, bent over my desk, looking at a tiny screen, with a much larger TV literally inches from my face. I never, and still do not, play RPGs in bite-sized chunks, which handhelds excel at. They're the games i play when I want many hours to disappear into the lifestream.

I wish they went a different route, but I can't see any. It's just been a pretty bad time. At least it looks like we're getting back into the swing of things, but I'm still crying about the funeral of Breath of Fire, the awful portable MonHuns, and the fact that Trails in the Sky haven't gotten a goty yet.

So tell me again, which of those series had the sales to go for console development and didn't? Portable consoles existing didn't allow these developers to "run" from HD development, a Breath of Fire level game, which is still decently high, was never getting an HD game. TWEWY type games weren't going to be made on the PS3 or 360.

Yeah, the PS3 hurting so badly at the beginning was probably harmful to console jrpgs, but asides from Kingdom Hearts, none of the big big sellers were absent from consoles. It's just that you can't justify SMT being a console game if you have to increase the budget for HD, it's strange to think that's what would've happened. Persona got big through portables and word of mouth, it's now that it's much more known as a series and the PS4 has been so successful that it's coming out on consoles.

Plus, portables are just 100x better for alot of RPGs, same way with puzzle games, many platformers, etc. Sleep function is a godsend for them.

Most other genres are not anime. My point was Japan + plot driven writing = something along the lines of anime most of the time. Certain clichés and plot devices persist in anime more often than not and find their way to VNs, LNs, video games, etc.

Uuuuh

Most anime are aiming at a specific audience, or a specific age demographic. You trying to apply a broad statement about Japan + plot driven writing seems silly because even there, majority of shows aren't anime, and the majority of books aren't going to be manga.

Not even counting anime that do have pretty damn good plot (because yeah, on first look, vast majority of it is the same tired stupid tropes that then get into many VNs and LNs and stuff.), you're still really accounting for a subset of Japanese culture that was nerdy and spread to other nerds in other countries; I'm not going to make a statement about the American film industry or literature because I just watched a summer blockbuster, played COD, and read Twilight. That would be stupid.

This is pretty much how I feel. I miss the mid-tier console JRPGs, the top-tier JRPG devs are not making the top-tier JRPGs they used to before HD consoles. All the budget just gets spent on marketing and graphics. . and yeah, Breath of Fire 6.. what a joke.

Tbh, I'm sort of scared the NX being the next portable will hurt the mid-tier console JRPHs that escaped to portable consoles. Hopefully portables + HD consoles will make full HD a much smoother transition, because dammit these sorts of games need a home somewhere.

 

[Zolo]

Nope. Never heard of Raidou.

Basically detective stories taking place in 1920s(or 30s) Japan with the protagonist being a demon summoner who usually takes on cases related to it. The best thing is the unique setting since I can't actually think of another game with the same. The first one's about as tropey and cliche as you can get as far as how detective stories go. The second one's a lot better in pretty much every aspect from the combat, traveling (the first one has random encounters everywhere), story, and more.

That said, the second one would probably still fall under your B-tier based on the games listed.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Witcher 3, Uncharted 4, Last of Us.

But those are only 3 games that came out in the past 3 years. And one of them is a sequel to a trilogy of games that didn't have such a good story personally.

So your saying that the medium changed and JRPG's have to follow western storytelling advances, yet we only have 3(arguably 2) games you can point to that really show any kind of story telling ambition on the level that shows that JRPG are generally are being left behind?

What about Nier? What about Digital Devil Saga(as i've mentioned). What about Folklore? Or Shadow Hearts?

I think personally, that the JRPG genre is generally stagnant on console, because there haven't been many made in a long time in general to actually push things on a level that are ambitious to behind with. Due to the cost of HD gaming, the double down on simple reused concepts is far more common place these days.

But i would be far less quick to say that the issue Japanese story telling in games has anything to do with what the western storytelling medium has brought forth, and more to do with putting people in charge to actually start telling more interesting stories in general.

 

[aitakute]

You should play Tales of Berseria

 

[Some Nobody]

You should play Tales of Berseria

So is the conclusion now that Berseria is a legitimately good Tales game?

 

[preta]

Also, I have not played Trails of Cold Steel or Vagrant Story yet, but I heard good things about the latter and Cold Steel II at least...

Come on. You never miss an opportunity to take shots at CS1 but you have never played it. I think you'll find if/when you actually play it that your fears are blown far out of proportion. The writing quality is easily up to series standards for ~99% of the game, and the "waifu" stuff is both completely optional and only a very minor part of the game if you do choose to pursue it.

Also, VS is wonderful. Excellent gameplay too.

 

[Hyperactivity]

No. This is the gold standard of writing in the west right now, and that's what the Japanese devs that want to sell their AAA JRPGs in the west should to be aiming for in the current market.



999 was excellent, and so was VLR. Haven't played TWEWY or Ace Attorney, so can't comment. I've enjoyed lots of JRPGs growing up like Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, etc., and the last one I enjoyed was Xenoblade 1.

Looking back at some modern JRPGs I've played - FFXIII, FFXIII-2, LR, Star Ocean 5, I am Setsuna, Dragon's Dogma, etc., have all had average to poor writing and story telling.

Yeah, that's the gold standard.

Forget Japan, how many games, or AAA games to be more specific, hit that gold standard again?

I'd probably agree with you that the modern JRPGs you listened mostly have meh to blech tier writing, but games with writing like TLOU are pretty rare here too, and you just named 2 games you thought had great writing (you listed 3 for your gold standard), and Uncharted's story is more of the summer blockbuster in video game form: the story is enjoyable, you're eating popcorn with friends, it has action and some serious plot points, and overall is a lighthearted experience. It's a fun experience, no doubt, and it also does what it attempts to well, because Uncharted tries to evoke that.

And again, the Witcher has the advantage of being based off of a book series. And while there's a ton of shitty literature out there, I'd say the average book already has a much better story than the average game.

 

[Lucentto]

I just want more good JRPGs on home consoles again. I can barely stomach playing on handhelds nowadays. Star Ocean 5 was so bad it made me question why I still give a damn about this genre. Oh well, at least Cold Steel II is coming soon.

 

[mikefrails]

I feel like you're really just arguing about Sturgeon's Law. When you get right down to it there are a ton of anime that are really excellent and worth watching and you're ignoring them to bring up some microwaved pap. This is the equivalent of telling me all superhero TV shows are bad because Arrow is garbage while brushing Daredevil and Jessica Jones to the side.

Having mediocre writing does not keep an anime from being enjoyable or even good.

I could rattle off shows from each season and it'd just turn into a battle of what we consider to be good.

Not even counting anime that do have pretty damn good plot (because yeah, on first look, vast majority of it is the same tired stupid tropes that then get into many VNs and LNs and stuff.), you're still really accounting for a subset of Japanese culture that was nerdy and spread to other nerds in other countries; I'm not going to make a statement about the American film industry or literature because I just watched a summer blockbuster, played COD, and read Twilight. That would be stupid.

So I need to watch a certain amount of anime to make this call?

 

[Cyrano]

I think personally, that the JRPG genre is generally stagnant on console, because there haven't been many made in a long time in general to actually push things on a level that are ambitious to behind with. Due to the cost of HD gaming, the double down on simple reused concepts is far more common place these days.

I would say it's stagnant because of the same reason anime is stagnant. It's feeding on itself rather than finding inspiration from outside sources. The glut of Marvel movies is the same thing in Western culture. It's not a lack of ideas, it's that any ideas that may not sell tend to get pushed out. It's difficult for even cult classics to get recognized, and when they are they are typically seen as being a flash in the pan, not a trend.

 

[Parfait]

So tell me again, which of those series had the sales to go for console development and didn't? Portable consoles existing didn't allow these developers to "run" from HD development, a Breath of Fire level game, which is still decently high, was never getting an HD game. TWEWY type games weren't going to be made on the PS3 or 360.

Yeah, the PS3 hurting so badly at the beginning was probably harmful to console jrpgs, but asides from Kingdom Hearts, none of the big big sellers were absent from consoles. It's just that you can't justify SMT being a console game if you have to increase the budget for HD, it's strange to think that's what would've happened. Persona got big through portables and word of mouth, it's now that it's much more known as a series and the PS4 has been so successful that it's coming out on consoles.

Plus, portables are just 100x better for alot of RPGs, same way with puzzle games, many platformers, etc. Sleep function is a godsend for them.

If I saw another Breath of Fire game for the PC or Console, that looked like Trails in the sky with maybe slightly better graphics or sprite art, I'd be all over it. If there was a new breath of fire on a portable, I'd be reluctant.

I can talk a lot about how portables themselves turned me away from portable gaming, but at the end of the day I don't want to play jRPGs on a portable. I hated TWENY and it's awful control scheme. It apparently has amazing everything else, so I'm screwed out of that... because it's on a portable, with some weird control scheme. I'm not even bothering with Monhun generations, because i don't have a ~new~ 3ds with fancy faster processing and an entire extra stick to make the game actually control well. I want my 90 hours playing MonHun Frontier back, and I want to be rid of the pain in my back and ass i felt when I played it for overlong stints of time because it was monster hunter damnit and I loved the ps2 version. I never touched The Golden. I played P3 Fes and 4 back on the PS2, on a TV. Like just about every non-pokemon jRPG I've played and really loved.

I don't think I really love any portable RPGs. Fire emblem Awakening and Pokemon Platinum/XYORAS come to mind as the closest to love but the ones where I spent more time in bed playing and still wishing i could do this on the TV.

Sleep function? Autosave.

I'm interested in the NX because it might be a dumb middle ground that might get.


So, yeah, companies running to portables pretty much hurt any love i had for the genre, and the leftovers and few good bits we get on consoles are all I have left instead of the variety of the PS1/2 era. Where I could actually go into a game store, look at a console shelf and feel utter surprise at seeing a rpg i didn't know about.

 

[Daeoc]

I'm interested in the NX because it might be a dumb middle ground that might get

This is why I'm interested in the NX, too. I have a 3DS which never leaves my room, the NX sounds like it was made for me. I don't care for portability, just the games.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Come on. You never miss an opportunity to take shots at CS1 but you have never played it.

Please, all I've ever posted were concerns in replies to people expressing criticism (not just one person, but multiple people saying similar things). That's not "taking potshots" unless you're extremely oversensitive or something.

I think you'll find if/when you actually play it that your fears are blown far out of proportion. The writing quality is easily up to series standards for ~99% of the game, and the "waifu" stuff is both completely optional and only a very minor part of the game if you do choose to pursue it.

Cool. I have the game and will play it eventually. I do hope you are right and I'll happily eat crow if you are. But I'm waiting for Trails 3rd first, since I hear it's best played in that order...

 

[Lindsay]

Plus, portables are just 100x better for alot of RPGs, same way with puzzle games, many platformers, etc. Sleep function is a godsend for them.

What goods the sleep function for? Saving a minute or so of time starting the game up each time? I mean its nice to have but don't consoles also have that function these days?

An I disagree with 'em being better suited for handhelds. Couldn't imagine playing Trails of Cold Steel, Xenogears, or Skies of Arcadia on a handheld to name a few. It'd just be awful! An handheld-only ones like Return to PopoloCrois and Fate/Extra I'd have been much happier playing 'em on the big screen with a good controller and zero worries about battery life! I don't think rpgs were ever meant to be pick & play for 5-10 minutes experiences so slapping 'em onto systems made for that kind of play style really never made sense.

 

[Steel]

Cool. I have the game and will play it eventually. I do hope you are right and I'll happily eat crow if you are. But I'm waiting for Trails 3rd first, since I hear it's best played in that order...

Sadly I don't think we're getting TC. If you got through SC you'll be fine for Cold Steel. Speaking of, I need to continue SC so I can continue Cold Steel.

Edit: It seems we are getting TC.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Sadly I don't think we're getting TC.

It was announced by XSEED for Steam in 2017.

What goods the sleep function for? Saving a minute or so of time starting the game up each time? I mean its nice to have but don't consoles also have that function these days?

An I disagree with 'em being better suited for handhelds. Couldn't imagine playing Trails of Cold Steel, Xenogears, or Skies of Arcadia on a handheld to name a few. It'd just be awful! An handheld-only ones like Return to PopoloCrois and Fate/Extra I'd have been much happier playing 'em on the big screen with a good controller and zero worries about battery life! I don't think rpgs were ever meant to be pick & play for 5-10 minutes experiences so slapping 'em onto systems made for that kind of play style really never made sense.

So much this. ^^

 

[FlynnCL]

I actually have more fun playing JRPG's now than I ever did. A lot of my favourite games could be considered modern (especially since I'm a huge fan of Gust's work).

I agree with you on not enjoying Rogue Galaxy. Level 5 were also responsible for Ni No Kuni and Dark Cloud, both games that overstayed their welcome by about 20 hours. I'll give them another chance one day, but their games can seriously burn you out which is a shame.

I only slightly agree on trimming the fat on RPG's. I enjoy a lot of series that could be considered too "bloated" in what mechanics they include and the depth of it, and I have friends that are almost scared to get into a lot of NIS's work because of that, but I personally love it. It's fantastic. I agree that some series could benefit by taking a much more simplistic approach and going back to basics, notably the Mario & Luigi series (Dream Team, to me, feels like they completely lost focus).

 

[preta]

Please, all I've ever posted were concerns in replies to people expressing criticism (not just one person, but multiple people saying similar things). That's not "taking potshots" unless you're extremely oversensitive or something.


Cool. I have the game and will play it eventually. I do hope you are right and I'll happily eat crow if you are. But I'm waiting for Trails 3rd first, since I hear it's best played in that order...

Alright. You don't need to play 3rd before CS1, but I would recommend it before CS2. It's probably for the best though - you won't want to play anything but CS2 right after CS1's ending.

 

[Dio]

Sadly I don't think we're getting TC.

What the fuck are you talking about? 3rd was confirmed, dude.

https://twitter.com/xseedgames/status/708366699485986816

 

[Steel]

It was announced by XSEED for 2017.

Wait, wha? This is actually happening? Awesome.

What the fuck are you talking about? 3rd was confirmed, dude.

https://twitter.com/xseedgames/status/708366699485986816

Apparently I've been under a rock.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I gave you facts outside of the Ranma example and you sidestepped them.

You weren't clear on your point, which is what i'm still trying to get out of you. Your bringing up one or two specific anime you supposedly do not like, as if they symbolize the entirety of anime or manga, and then you say that by definition anime leans towards being trashy with no real context given for that sentiment.

I would say it's stagnant because of the same reason anime is stagnant. It's feeding on itself rather than finding inspiration from outside sources. The glut of Marvel movies is the same thing in Western culture. It's not a lack of ideas, it's that any ideas that may not sell tend to get pushed out. It's difficult for even cult classics to get recognized, and when they are they are typically seen as being a flash in the pan, not a trend.

That's also very true....i actually recently read a very informative interview from the Seiyuu of Lina Inverse/Rei(Evangelion)/Faye(Cowboy Bebop) among many othe legendary series, where she actually said the same thing your saying right now.

She made the argument that in modern times, there is a big subset of genres in anime today that basically feed on themselves with distilled concepts from previous generations.

As well as authors trying to achieve that same success of those fore-bearers without actually understanding what made them popular, and as such do not really follow the same core creative principles to branch out on their own terms and find different ways of expressing their points.

I look at anime like Noein for example, nothing has actually tried to emulate it since its inception. It ran for a short 26 episode run and generally speaking, while decently popular, was not a smash hit, and such fell to the wayside.

Things like the anime adaptions of Clannad and Kanon 06 largely ushered in the moe type of aesthetic that is so overwhelmingly prevalent today, with anime that essentially just remulate it over and over again from different angles because of trying to gain the same cash flow. And to think we got that from Kyonani as opposed to...a new season of Full metal Panic.

So is the conclusion now that Berseria is a legitimately good Tales game?

From what i hear, its the best one since Vesperia, which i find hard to believe, but i can't really hear much bad about it.

 

[Exentryk]

What about Nier? What about Digital Devil Saga(as i've mentioned). What about Folklore? Or Shadow Hearts?

Oh yeah, NieR was great. Haven't played the others. There has been well written Japanese games, but not many modern JRPGs have had good writing. So yeah, I'd like them to be targeting and competing against the best of the best. The market has changed, and going forward, this is the target.

Ooof. Not sure I want to take your opinion on writing seriously after this. I mean, it's true that the games you listed have poor writing (Dragon's Dogma wasn't that bad, mind, but not very good either, though I don't really consider it a JRPG either), but 999 has absolutely awful writing.

999 was a lot better than Dragon's Dogma

 

[Harmen]

As someone who loves/loved the AAA JRPG space, I don't feel the genre has a lot to offer these days. And with JRPGs I don't mean games like the Soulsborne or Monhunt series, I mean the grand high production value adventures like the FF games. Most recent highlights, such as Xenoblade Chronicles, are already quite old games stemming from last gen at this point.

 

[dreamlongdead]

It's pretty unreasonable to expect JRPGs to play exactly like the 16-bit and 32-bit games, because gaming has changed so much in that time. I do not see complex mechanics of some modern RPGs to be a bad thing at all.

However, there are still loads of old-school "simple" RPGs on DS and PSP that the OP obviously didn't pay attention to.

JRPGs have a stronger presence on consoles this gen, and it is very exciting!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

999 was a lot better than Dragon's Dogma

Yeah, no.

 

[mikefrails]

You weren't clear on your point, which is what i'm still trying to get out of you. Your bringing up one or two specific anime you supposedly do not like, as if they symbolize the entirety of anime or manga, and then you say that by definition anime leans towards being trashy with no real context given for that sentiment.

Ranma 1/2 is one of my favorite anime.

We can be more cut and dry about it though: do you think most anime being released today are well written? And I mean by the standard of what is most commonly considered a well written story. Use your best judgement for whatever that may be.

 

[Exentryk]

Yeah, that's the gold standard.

Forget Japan, how many games, or AAA games to be more specific, hit that gold standard again?

That's what I expect now from my future RPGs. I know most of them won't hit that mark, but I would love them to try. It's not like I'll stop buying the JRPGs, coz I still enjoy them for their combat systems, but I would love for them to have good writing, that can match or beat the best the West has to offer.

 

[redcrayon]

OP, check out I am Setsuna or the upcoming Cosmic Star Heroine if you're looking for a JRPG on consoles that harks back to 16-bit games.

Personally, my favourite 'recent' ones are Radiant Historia (DS) SMTIV (3DS) and Bravely Second (3DS), none of which are about amnesiac teens on a quest to save the world with the power of friendship. Quite enjoyed Trails of Cold Steel as well, which is full of jrpg cliches but turns a lot of them on their head too.

Xenoblade Chronicles X was fun too, but the storytelling was so open that really it felt more like a cool game about being a freelance explorer and mech pilot rather than a cohesive, rounded RPG. Beautiful game world though, truly alien and striking because of that. Makes a change to either strolling through Middle Earth and fighting dragons for the umpteenth time in WRPGs or Fantasy High School in JRPGs these days.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Ranma 1/2 is one of my favorite anime.

We can be more cut and dry about it though: do you think most anime being released today are well written? And I mean by the standard of what is most commonly considered a well written story. Use your best judgement for whatever that may be.

There was never a time when "most" anime released in a given year had excellent writing.

Anyway, as far as artistry and storytelling goes anime is certainly in a much better place today than Japanese games. (Which shouldn't be a surprise, given how difficult it is to create successful storytelling in games.) People in this thread talk about anime being stagnant, but I think an industry that is producing works such as Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu, Kaze no Matasaburou, Kizumonogatari, Concrete Revolutio, Mob Psycho 100. Battery, etc. is still managing to make a variety of creative works that take inspiration from a wide array of sources.

 

[Rappy]

Ranma 1/2 is one of my favorite anime.

We can be more cut and dry about it though: do you think most anime being released today are well written? And I mean by the standard of what is most commonly considered a well written story. Use your best judgement for whatever that may be.

There's already a thread about this. If you read through it, the conclusion is most games, movies, books, anime, TV shows, short stories, visual novels, comics, plays, musicals, etc. are all not well written, or at least don't have a good story.

 

[Dark_castle]

Now we're talking. Adding to that;

Ogre Battle 64
Paper Mario TTYD
DDS 1 & 2
SMT: Nocturne
TWEWY
Dragon Quest IV
Dragon Quest V
Persona 2

And you've got a pretty good list of good JRPG stories/writing.

Radiant Historia
Lufia 2
Earthbound
Mother 3
Terranigma
Grandia
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy XII
Parasite Eve
Valkyrie's Profile 1
Valkyrie's Profile: Covenant of the Plume
Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts: Covenant
Drakengard
Nier
Xenosaga
DQVIII
Skies of Arcadia
Valkyria Chronicles
FE: Path of Radiance
FE: Radiant Dawn

All Persona games have above average story/writing as well. Also there's indie made JRPG like To The Moon, Undertale and LISA which are great as well.

 

[Sithlord77]

Rogue Galaxy sure is an odd example to use. I'm still from PS2 era and what's more it's a lot better than most RPG's that come out today. Look at Tales of Zestiria or So5 as recent bad examples of JRPGs

 

[Snakeyes]

I didn't find DQVIII's story to be particularly good. Fun characters, but that's par for the course for the series.

 

[Dark_castle]

I didn't find DQVIII's story to be particularly good. Fun characters, but that's par for the course for the series.

Characters ARE story. Characters are what drives story forward, in addition to the plot itself. After all, that's what made games like the Persona games so good, not because they have particularly deep story or clever writing, but likeable characters and fun characterisation. Same goes to the Uncharted games as well.

 

[KZXcellent]

I can't say I agree.

Sure, JRPGs have plenty of mediocre games whether it's the recent Star Ocean or the plethora of niche-anime JRPGS. Of course this is to be expected since every genre has plenty of good AND bad games. You can say the same for any genre, really but since JRPGs are more niche than say a FPS it's looked at a bit more critically.

In terms of game systems and tech trees and stuff I don't really have an issue if it's understandable. Stuff like the Sphere Grid from FFX is simple to understand whereas the Armor System in Tales of Zestiria is incomprehensible and I have no idea how it works even after I beat the damn game. I find different systems in JRPGs to be fun and keep the game fresh. I'd prefer that over simplistic systems from the JRPGs of the 90s.

As for the story I can't really throw out a strong argument. I like anime and I have the same interests in JRPGs that I did in the PS2-era. I enjoy saving the world with a gang of sword-wielding protags as we defeat the god-like being through the power of friendship and bonds. I wouldn't like the Kingdom Hearts series if I didn't. That's not to say I like everything that's thrown out in the genre from a story standpoint though! I thought Star Ocean and I Am Setsuna had the WORST stories for a JRPG in recent memory. Zestiria was also pretty boring as well (though I have high hopes for Berseria after checking in on the Import OT)

To me Modern JRPGs aren't any worse than they have been over the past several years. It's just that people's tastes have changed and people aren't interested in that style of storytelling/game anymore. Of course I'm in a minority because I don't find TLoU, Uncharted or even The Witcher that interesting comparatively. Just not my thing, yo.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Nocturne is one of my favorite games ever, but if it counts as a gold standard for good writing in RPGs then I don't want to imagine what badly written ones are like. I mean it's by no means awful but nearly every major human character in there is an unlikeable, shallow asshole, and this is a game that expects you to side with one of them because you agree with their worldview. World building, atmosphere and sense of adventure are good, tho.

I think the only truly well written SMT games I've played are the Persona 2 duology, and those play pretty bad. Strange Journey is pretty good too, but it goes downhill after choosing your alignment. Everything else gods from above average to pretty good, but that's about it. DDS seems promising but I'm currently playing the first game, so I'm not sure.

This is precisely why I settle for stuff with good combat, likeable characters and alright story, tho. Getting the whole package is nearly impossible, and if you don't like anime stuff then even more so.

 

[Snakeyes]

Characters ARE story. Characters are what drives story forward, in addition to the plot itself. After all, that's what made games like the Persona games so good, not because they have particularly deep story or clever writing, but likeable characters and fun characterisation. Same goes to the Uncharted games as well.

Sure, though DQVIII didn't feel particularly notable in that regard to me compared to other DQs. That being said, some characters will resonate more for different people.

 

[Zolo]

I didn't find DQVIII's story to be particularly good. Fun characters, but that's par for the course for the series.

Yeah. Dragon Quest has always done really well with telling out simple, but very well executed stories.

As for recent anime and JRPGs, the only thing I've seen that's really risen up in popularity that's god awful and horrible is the rise in popularity of loli's in games and anime/manga. Sure. There was a bit even in the 90s/early 00's, but NOWHERE near what it is now.

Aside from that, yeah. There is a general problem of too much material re-iterating previously successful entries instead of looking for outside inspiration. It's not always a strict measure, but you can generally notice that the more something is inspired by real-life influences, the better. It's partly why I expect Persona 5 to be better than FFXV story-wise.

 

[Dark_castle]

Nocturne is one of my favorite games ever, but if it counts as a gold standard for good writing in RPGs then I don't want to imagine what badly written ones are like. I mean it's by no means awful but nearly every major human character in there is an unlikeable, shallow asshole, and this is a game that expects you to side with one of them because you agree with their worldview. World building, atmosphere and sense of adventure are good, tho.

I think the only truly well written SMT games I've played are the Persona 2 duology, and those play pretty bad. Strange Journey is pretty good too, but it goes downhill after choosing your alignment. Everything else gods from above average to pretty good, but that's about it. DDS seems promising but I'm currently playing the first game, so I'm not sure.

This is precisely why I settle for stuff with good combat, likeable characters and alright story, tho. Getting the whole package is nearly impossible, and if you don't like anime stuff then even more so.

Nocturne wasn't the gold standard for me. Yeah it was above average, but like the Persona games (except for 2), they're just that, somewhere above average, but not truly outstanding and setting the bar in the department of story/character/writing. My personal gold standard was about the same with Morrigan Stark.

Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions
Suikoden 2
Xenogears

Of course everyone has a different level of standards, and some people may even consider games like FFX to have great story, and I can totally understand that.

 

[Hyperactivity]

*sigh*

Is it really that hard to understand why some people don't like handheld gaming vs console/PC gaming, and why they lament the near-disappearance of an entire genre (or at least the lack of quality) from consoles/PC?

Come on. This isn't about having to choose a console here. Handhelds have incredibly obvious limitations compared to console/PC gaming (I can't believe I actually hacve to list them, guess people are really that dense):
- Tiny-ass screen
- Painful on my hands*
- Lower production values due to weaker hardware.

"Quit your whining" is a shitty dismissive attitude. Handhelds are not suited to everyone. It's OK to wish for high production values JRPGs on a larger screen and it's perfectly understandable that many people would miss that. That they would miss the days of Xenogears and Panzer Dragoon Saga and they would like for such games to return to the non-microscopic screen. Jeanne d'Arc is the last handheld JRPG I played to completion. I've been trying to continue my playthrough of Tactics Ogre on the PSP, but I just never play it because I don't have the motivation to pick up the damn handheld for the reasons above.

* Yes, I tried the special plastic grip for the 3DS. It doesn't help. I quit handheld gaming for good because I was sick of how uncomfortable and even painful it would get, despite not even playing for long hours end on. I'm glad the PS TV exists, by the way, since I could finally play Ys Celceta on my TV, and I wish there were an equivalent for the 3DS. Guess I can hope the NX will support something like that...

A few things:

1) Feel bad about portables being painful, can totally believe and understand that. You have a totally legitimate gripe with jrpgs going to portables there, and I don't blame you for being frustrated with that. Won't tell you to just get used to it either, it's bs that your hands being uncomfortable gets in your way there.

Have you checked out whether the 2DS is more comfortable for your grip? Iirc, it was supposed to be pretty good for people who found the 3DS, DS uncomfortable

2) Consoles don't fit everyone either. A console basically means you have to also have an HD Tv, and it's not as convenient. Portable consoles didn't just become big because people like playing on smaller screen. They're really fucking convenient to carry around and play.

S-tier
- Panzer Dragoon Saga - barely got an English release, started on the Saturn
- Final Fantasy Tactics - Wiki saying it sold 2.4 million, so pretty successful. But also FF
- Suikoden II - series suffered from disappointing sales without a single HD game
- Shining Force III - ??

A-tier
- Xenogears - Wiki saying it sold about 1.11 million
- Tactics Ogre * - Wiki saying the series as a whole sold about 750,000
- Breath of Fire III - Already mentioned, this was most successful capcom series and total sales were slightly above 3 million

- Trails in the Sky FC/SC - Took six years to get localized
- Final Fantasy VI - it's FF
- Suikoden III and V - already covered

B-tier
- Wild ARMs - None of the game sold enough outside Japan to qualify for Greatest Hits or Platinum Range

- Suikoden I - already covered
- Final Fantasy VII - it's FF
- Vandal Hearts - niche series
- Phantasy Star IV - ???
- Chrono Trigger - successful at 5.4 million sales between Trigger, Cross, and DS and PS1 Chrono Trigger

- Skies of Arcadia * - don't know figures, but originally Dreamcast game, doubt it cracked 1 million

- Jeanne d'Arc - made for PSP, wiki says it sold under 70k in Japan firsts year it was out

F-tier of Supreme Awfulness
- Final Fantasy VIII - Final Fantasy

* Never finished it, so this is a tentative ranking ^^

Also, I have not played Trails of Cold Steel or Vagrant Story yet, but I heard good things about the latter and Cold Steel II at least...

Almost every single game here never had the sales to get the budget to go to HD, and you expecting them too is sort of silly. Most successful series that aren't FF here are Xenogears (1.1 million isn't getting a Xeno game on HD consoles as a major hit, plus Monolith Soft) and Chrono Trigger (Got 2 re-releases, a sequel that sold less, but tbh, yeah, why is this dead? Still iffy on if it would get major sales for it to be major hitter SE plans for, but I could definitely see it on consoles)

It sucks, but that's the truth of it.

If I saw another Breath of Fire game for the PC or Console, that looked like Trails in the sky with maybe slightly better graphics or sprite art, I'd be all over it. If there was a new breath of fire on a portable, I'd be reluctant.

I can talk a lot about how portables themselves turned me away from portable gaming, but at the end of the day I don't want to play jRPGs on a portable. I hated TWENY and it's awful control scheme. It apparently has amazing everything else, so I'm screwed out of that... because it's on a portable, with some weird control scheme. I'm not even bothering with Monhun generations, because i don't have a ~new~ 3ds with fancy faster processing and an entire extra stick to make the game actually control well. I want my 90 hours playing MonHun Frontier back, and I want to be rid of the pain in my back and ass i felt when I played it for overlong stints of time because it was monster hunter damnit and I loved the ps2 version. I never touched The Golden. I played P3 Fes and 4 back on the PS2, on a TV. Like just about every non-pokemon jRPG I've played and really loved.

I don't think I really love any portable RPGs. Fire emblem Awakening and Pokemon Platinum/XYORAS come to mind as the closest to love but the ones where I spent more time in bed playing and still wishing i could do this on the TV.

Sleep function? Autosave.

I'm interested in the NX because it might be a dumb middle ground that might get.


So, yeah, companies running to portables pretty much hurt any love i had for the genre, and the leftovers and few good bits we get on consoles are all I have left instead of the variety of the PS1/2 era. Where I could actually go into a game store, look at a console shelf and feel utter surprise at seeing a rpg i didn't know about.

Tell me more about how well this Breath of Fire game with better sprite art for PC and consoles would sell today. Like it or not, the majority of games with sprites are indies, a major jrpg release isn't happening with sprites on the PS4 and XB1.

Believe me, I honestly hate alot of what the jump to HD did to the budgets of a lot of video games, especially because I rarely am up to date with what games I'm playing at a certain time, but it's happened, and somehow expecting the Breath of Fire series to get onto consoles was always something that was ridiculous. As for Monster Hunter and Dragon Quest, sales outside Japan for those series weren't enough to justify console development at that time, and Monster Hunter grew HUGE on portables.

I guess the thing for me is that I grew up more on portables than home consoles, and tbh, having the screen closer to my face and being able to take the game anywhere is a pretty valuable thing for me. I think it sucks that there aren't as many console jrpgs, and that the jrpgs that are great are barely mentioned (but my issue with the 2nd isn't that they're on portable consoles, but that portable consoles are getting ignored)

And TWEWY's control scheme doesn't have as much to do with it being portable as the control scheme by itself (search up the Bidou controller scheme for smash bros - that controller scheme being awkward as hell isn't an issue with the Pro controller)

Having mediocre writing does not keep an anime from being enjoyable or even good.

I could rattle off shows from each season and it'd just turn into a battle of what we consider to be good.



So I need to watch a certain amount of anime to make this call?

No

I'm saying there's literature in Japan that isn't manga, and shows and films in Japan that aren't anime. Forgetting anime as a whole, you still aren't covering the majority of Japanese television (iirc, asides from kid's shows and really really popular shows, alot of anime gets the super late night slots, even the popular ones).

You're just associating Japanese plot and writing with that because you browse GAF, and the aspect of Japanese you've been exposed to the most is in the form of anime, manga, LNs, VNs. Ignoring the fact that some of these have a good plot (999 is a VN), you're still not accounting for, y'know..., actual books that are published over there, or movies made there.

What goods the sleep function for? Saving a minute or so of time starting the game up each time? I mean its nice to have but don't consoles also have that function these days?

An I disagree with 'em being better suited for handhelds. Couldn't imagine playing Trails of Cold Steel, Xenogears, or Skies of Arcadia on a handheld to name a few. It'd just be awful! An handheld-only ones like Return to PopoloCrois and Fate/Extra I'd have been much happier playing 'em on the big screen with a good controller and zero worries about battery life! I don't think rpgs were ever meant to be pick & play for 5-10 minutes experiences so slapping 'em onto systems made for that kind of play style really never made sense.

Well, more sleep function with portability. Because that means it's available for me to play over the course of a day.

Of course, this is true of any handheld game, but it just works better with certain genres, like Metroidvanias, platformers, puzzle games, rpgs, where you can stop and start between battles, save points, levels, puzzles, etc.

That's what I expect now from my future RPGs. I know most of them won't hit that mark, but I would love them to try. It's not like I'll stop buying the JRPGs, coz I still enjoy them for their combat systems, but I would love for them to have good writing, that can match or beat the best the West has to offer.

It would be nice if most games could hit that, just like it would be nice for most shows to be amazing.

I'd also like the music in every rpg I play to be amazing, and the characters well developed, and the battle system engaging, and the dialogue well-written. Etc.

Writing is just one aspect of many to judge rpgs by, and yes, in general, you want most games to excel in the different aspects that make up a game. But that's a 10/10 game right there, and sometimes you don't get 10/10.

 

[Zolo]

I like the story in Nocturne, but it's a minimalist approach to story. You maybe have 1 hour of story vs 79 of gameplay. You don't really spend enough time with the characters, so your choices are more about what ideas you simply like better. Along with that, I think there's 2-3 places to talk with a small amount of npcs.

I tend to give Devil Survivor shit, but going back, I do really like all the characters (and story), and it probably has the best implementation of paths/alignments in the series.

 

[Snakeyes]

As for recent anime and JRPGs, the only thing I've seen that's really risen up in popularity that's god awful and horrible is the rise in popularity of loli's in games and anime/manga. Sure. There was a bit even in the 90s/early 00's, but NOWHERE near what it is now.

Gotta sell them figurines to make up for Japanese consumers migrating to mobile.

 

[sasuke_91]

This thread is a mess. OP doesn't really know what he wants to talk about and bases his argument on having played 1 JRPG and watched 2 others with none of them actually being considered exceptionally good and compares them to the best JRPGs of the SNES era.

It's true that a lot of modern JRPGs follow a certain archetype when it comes to story and characters, but there's so many games even from the same gen as Rogue Galaxy that are so different. Just try to compare DQ VIII and Kingdom Hearts II. Two totally different games.
Or just buy a 3DS and play actually good games

 

[IrishNinja]

the genre has no doubt stagnated, though not as bad as some others - fighters, SHMUPs, strategy RPGs etc in a lotta instances feel like they hit walls, for me.

last gen, we got some brilliance from some random places: the dream sequences of Lost Odyssey, much of Nier (action, granted, but still), and a complete surprise with actual character development and non-terrible introspection from The World Ends With You.

i haven't played Trails yet, but yeah, there's still greatness, you just gotta do digging for it.

Spoiler

there's almost no way in my mind FF XV will deliver nearly on the level of Persona 5

 

[Opa-Pa]

Sorry, didn't mean to be dismissive with the Nocturne post. I just misinterpreted the quoting of Morrigan Stark's post about best examples of good writing.

I like the story in Nocturne, but it's a minimalist approach to story. You maybe have 1 hour of story vs 79 of gameplay. You don't really spend enough time with the characters, so your choices are more about what ideas you simply like better. Along with that, I think there's 2-3 places to talk with a small amount of npcs.

I tend to give Devil Survivor shit, but going back, I do really like all the characters (and story), and it probably has the best implementation of paths/alignments in the series.

Oh I like the overall package in Nocturne too, in fact it's a good example of why I prefer minimalist stories sometimes. I think the philosophical talk in Nocturne and a good portion of the dialogue pretty bad, but it's clearly not the focus of the game, and the world and adventure are good enough, not to mention the rest of the experience is A+.

I agree on DS too. The IMO terrible art style can be pretty deceiving, but most characters feel pretty genuine and likeable, and the story and especially alignment system are very solid. I wish DS2 hadn't taken a completely different path with the narrative.

 

[Teknoman]

Nier and Lost Odyssey were pretty good. As was Tales of Vesperia.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

You know, people always say this but the pacing and ratio of pressing A to scroll inane, padded dialogue to exploring dungeons and fighting is way off if you're looking for your old school jRPG fix. If you like visual novels with a little bit of combat to break things up maybe you'll be down with the Trails series. But if you're craving the return of FF6 or Lufia II it's not going to fit.

OP, I've come to the conclusion that the traditional style from the early to mid-90s is effectively extinct. Tastes and audiences in the home country have changed (for the worse), the people who made the games you liked are mostly out of the industry or in management by now, those that remain have kind of curdled artistically, and the end result is that you can't go home again. There're a few from last gen like Xenoblade Chronicles, The Last Story, Lost Odyssey, and Blue Dragon, but console jRPGs, especially of a traditional mold, are vanishingly thin on the ground.

Maybe you'd be down for the Shin Megami Tensei series outside of Persona? Mechanics heavy and rather down to brass tacks by modern standards. In particular you might dig the Digital Devil Saga duology on PS2. It's a little more story heavy and a little more linear compared to the mainline series with party members with defined traits that get swapped in and out based on the plot points. And it's a serious plot without moe pandering, though some of the quirks of localization, like a lily white guy having an absolutely terrible fake Jamaican accent simply because he has dreads, might grate a little. Oh yeah, and it's got a hard edged soundtrack without a hint of jpop/idol culture shrillness. If you want some more standard swords and sorcery, nothing even semi-recent is up to par. Just go get Grandia II on Steam or Suikoden II on PSN. Or if you can stomach the overly doctored script, pick up Dragon Quest VII in a couple of weeks. Actually, yes, do that.

Corny characters, cliche stories and mediocre graphics. JRPGs never had the most complex stories, but they had cool, interesting characters and beautiful environments to explore. Not so much now. I don't want to play as the backstreet boys, nor do I want to play a game where the cast consists of catwomen and 5 year olds. I miss the cast from a game such as Breath of Fire 3.

Man, I hear you but using Breath of Fire 3 as an example is a strange choice since you play the first half of that as a pre-teen hero and the series as a whole is well known for cat women like, uh, Katt and other sexy girls with animal characteristics like Nina, Momo, and Ursula.