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Presidential Debate #2 |Washington University| Grab me right in the Ken Bone

Who won?

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D

Darryl M R

Member
Steel said:
Let's be real, he'll get dragged either way. Probably worse if he chooses Hillary considering how Trumpers act. Were I him I wouldn't publically state who he chooses to avoid.
Click to expand...

You're right. Probably smart to just say that he has decided. If he picks Clinton so much hatred will be sent his way. Nothing clever. Just pure hate.
 
R

RDreamer

Member
King Tubby said:
I think you're judging it too personally. If you were already a Trump/Clinton supporter nothing either of them were going to say or do was going to sway you. I think the general consensus among people trying to be objective is that Trump exceeded expectations while Hillary met them or fell somewhat short. Lots of people (myself included) were expecting a knockout blow, but that's not really what happened.

I don't know how fruitful the discussion is, anyway. This debate didn't really change anything. Trump is still dead in the water.
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I guess I don't even understand how that wasn't a knockout blow. The media in this country fucking sucks. The reason Trump was nearly out of the damned race is because he bragged about sexually assaulting women. When called to answer for that during the debate he doesn't sincerely apologize at all, completely hand waves it and then babbles on about ISIS or some shit. He should have been beyond dead at that point. And the media starts fucking saying he stopped the bleeding? Fucking HOW? Maybe if you ignore the reason he was bleeding, then sure... yeah. But I guess women are used to being ignored by the political process by now.

The only way Trump succeeded expectations was if you expected him to come out literally smeared in feces and maybe piss on the crowd a little. Unfortunately he basically metaphorically did just that by inviting Bill's "victims" in and raving like a fucking lunatic about conspiracy bullshit and lying the entire time.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Ninja Scooter said:
BREAKING:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/us/politics/ken-bone-is-closer-to-deciding-after-debate.html
Click to expand...

Closer? You are telling me, Mr. Bone, you still haven't decided?

NLXgxE0.png
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
King Tubby said:
I think you're judging it too personally. If you were already a Trump/Clinton supporter nothing either of them were going to say or do was going to sway you. I think the general consensus among people trying to be objective is that Trump exceeded expectations while Hillary met them or fell somewhat short. Lots of people (myself included) were expecting a knockout blow, but that's not really what happened.

I don't know how fruitful the discussion is, anyway. This debate didn't really change anything. Trump is still dead in the water.
Click to expand...
I don't know. If you weren't put off by his childishness, bullish disrespect for his opponent and the moderators, blatant lack of knowledge on a wide array of important topics, and direct threat to take the unprecedented step of jailing Hillary like some third world dictator, then what the actual hell would sway you against Trump?

It was a very poor performance. He acted like the dangerous and unsavory fool that he is. I question the judgment of anyone who wasn't put off by his behavior when he was ranting about Hillary's emails or Bill Clinton's past.
 
A

Aaronology

Member
I know the Vicki Sciolaro CNN segment has already been partially posted, but here is a higher quality and longer video of what might be one of the most insane moments for a Trump surrogate yet.

Shaun Harper and Brooke Baldwin spend the first minute and a half oscillating between disbelief and visibly trying not to laugh. Harper comes dangerously close to failing several times, particularly when Sciolaro attacks Clinton for being ok with "murdering babies" and "dismembering abortions." @1:36, Vicki declares "God can use anybody! He used the harlots!", causing Brooke to stutter for a second before quietly asking, "Shaun, jump in please."

It's a rare treat to see even journalists flabbergasted and left speechless by political bullshit and spin. And my favorite moment? "He's not running to be the Pope!"


This is going to be a fun week, isn't it?
 
H

HotHamBoy

Member
King Tubby said:
I think you're judging it too personally. If you were already a Trump/Clinton supporter nothing either of them were going to say or do was going to sway you. I think the general consensus among people trying to be objective is that Trump exceeded expectations while Hillary met them or fell somewhat short. Lots of people (myself included) were expecting a knockout blow, but that's not really what happened.

I don't know how fruitful the discussion is, anyway. This debate didn't really change anything. Trump is still dead in the water.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense. The question is "who did better," not "who met or exceeded expectations for themselves." This is a debate. If you know what it means to debate then you know Trump did not do that.

Regardless, his conduct and rhetoric was abominable. The things he said were both ignorant and disturbing. His media tactics were revolting. Hillary was respectable, well informed, mostly addressed the issues brought up and behaved like an acceptable, professional human being. She was fending off extremely low bows.

There is no comparison. Trump doesn't automatically get elevated just because he didn't take a shit on the floor.
 
K

King Tubby

Member
RDreamer said:
I guess I don't even understand how that wasn't a knockout blow. The media in this country fucking sucks. The reason Trump was nearly out of the damned race is because he bragged about sexually assaulting women. When called to answer for that during the debate he doesn't sincerely apologize at all, completely hand waves it and then babbles on about ISIS or some shit. He should have been beyond dead at that point. And the media starts fucking saying he stopped the bleeding? Fucking HOW? Maybe if you ignore the reason he was bleeding, then sure... yeah. But I guess women are used to being ignored by the political process by now.
Click to expand...

Monocle said:
I don't know. If you weren't put off by his childishness, bullish disrespect for his opponent and the moderators, blatant lack of knowledge on a wide array of important topics, and direct threat to take the unprecedented step of jailing Hillary like some third world dictator, then what the actual hell would sway you against Trump?
Click to expand...

Given everything that had happened in the past 48 hours and his position in the polls, Trump should basically have been hammered the entire time not just for the tapes but for, well, everything Trump. Instead he went into "give no fucks" mode and delivered perhaps the most bizarre presidential debate of all time; more importantly for himself, he kept the debate from being a 90 minute "fuck Trump" session and somehow managed to force Hillary onto the defensive.

He dragged out every piece of baggage that has dogged her political career, including a lot of things that resonate with the average American voter (including people who support Hillary - it bears repeating that she still isn't very well liked by the general population even if she is winning handily). Hillary's flaw here was that she didn't do enough to respond to those attacks, partly because there was a lot of lies and weird infowars crap sprinkled in there (Trump pointing at her every time he said "George Soros" was laughable), but also partly because she didn't really have any good response.

As much of a stunt as it was, bringing out Bill Clinton's accusers and making them a topic of discussion at the very beginning almost neutered the use of Trump's tapes against him. Hillary should have found ways to work that in more often throughout the debate, but I got a sense that she wanted to move away from that subject. Trump's "Honest Abe" comeback I thought was rather effective. It was almost reminiscent of the famous Lloyd Bentsen retort in his 1988 debate with Dan Quayle, although it was itself neutered by the fact that Trump is racist as fuck. I think his tying Clinton to the moneyed class w/r/t taxes and her legislative history also probably resonated with the general public. In my eyes he got a number of hits in that he had failed to deliver in the first debate, and Hillary didn't hit him back hard enough/counterattack all that effectively.

It was a showing good enough that the Republican party apparatus has not yet completely abandoned him, which even his VP made into an open question pre-debate. That said, it wasn't enough to really change his odds, and I doubt anything he did could have put him in much of a better position. Trump had his own failings that have been discussed at length in this thread.
 
G

Garlador

Member
Not Just Words...

I thought this was a good read and, really, people everywhere SHOULD be kicking up a storm that a presidential candidate trivialized how damaging words can be when said with such carelessness.

“For your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned” reads Matthew 12:36-38.

“Words are loaded pistols,” wrote Jean-Paul Sartre.

“Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind,” Rudyard Kipling said.

And, of course, Donald Trump: “I know words, I have the best words.”
Click to expand...
Even the Donald agrees.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Aaronology said:
And my favorite moment? "He's not running to be the Pope!"
Click to expand...

I find it equal parts funny and scary.

It's unsettling to see how many people Trump has successfully convinced that the office of the presidency is one of dictatorship and cruelty.

That's the thing with Trump supporters. They're not deluded or lied to, atleast not with this. They know Trump just wants to basically just wants to kill our problems away with violence. And they think that's good.
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
Nemesis121 said:
This is from 5 years ago, hahahaha Seth Meyers destroying Trump...
https://youtu.be/fCkLi3-KXck?t=104
Click to expand...

It's showing good sportsmanship to laugh at yourself during a roast, even if you weren't aware you were gonna get it (and given the context he should have expected it, at the correspondent dinner, after the whole birther crap).

He is not smiling (let alone laughing) -at all-. More like seething rage barely contained.

Wow.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
mnz said:
"Our nuclear program has fallen behind and they’ve gone wild with their program. Not good. Our government should not have allowed that to happen. Russia is new in terms of nuclear. We are old, we’re tired we’re exhausted in terms of nuclear. A very bad thing."

Who wouldn't want him in power?
Click to expand...

It's funny because I could've sworn Obama is investing 1 trillion dollars (yes, trillion) on upgrading nuclear weapons.

I wonder if he even thinks why he won the Nobel Peace price. EDIT: I'm not too fair with that assessment, the number of nuclear weapons is reducing, but their tech improves.
 
O

Ollie Pooch

In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Elandyll said:
It's showing good sportsmanship to laugh at yourself during a roast, even if you weren't aware you were gonna get it (and given the context he should have expected it, at the correspondent dinner, after the whole birther crap).

He is not smiling (let alone laughing) -at all-. More like seething rage barely contained.

Wow.
Click to expand...
I blame this speech for the current predicament :p
 
H

HotHamBoy

Member
King Tubby said:
Given everything that had happened in the past 48 hours and his position in the polls, Trump should basically have been hammered the entire time not just for the tapes but for, well, everything Trump. Instead he went into "give no fucks" mode and delivered perhaps the most bizarre presidential debate of all time; more importantly for himself, he kept the debate from being a 90 minute "fuck Trump" session and somehow managed to force Hillary onto the defensive.

He dragged out every piece of baggage that has dogged her political career, including a lot of things that resonate with the average American voter (including people who support Hillary - it bears repeating that she still isn't very well liked by the general population even if she is winning handily). Hillary's flaw here was that she didn't do enough to respond to those attacks, partly because there was a lot of lies and weird infowars crap sprinkled in there (Trump pointing at her every time he said "George Soros" was laughable), but also partly because she didn't really have any good response.

As much of a stunt as it was, bringing out Bill Clinton's accusers and making them a topic of discussion at the very beginning almost neutered the use of Trump's tapes against him. Hillary should have found ways to work that in more often throughout the debate, but I got a sense that she wanted to move away from that subject. Trump's "Honest Abe" comeback I thought was rather effective. It was almost reminiscent of the famous Lloyd Bentsen retort in his 1988 debate with Dan Quayle, although it was itself neutered by the fact that Trump is racist as fuck. I think his tying Clinton to the moneyed class w/r/t taxes and her legislative history also probably resonated with the general public. In my eyes he got a number of hits in that he had failed to deliver in the first debate, and Hillary didn't hit him back hard enough/counterattack all that effectively.

It was a showing good enough that the Republican party apparatus has not yet completely abandoned him, which even his VP made into an open question pre-debate. That said, it wasn't enough to really change his odds, and I doubt anything he did could have put him in much of a better position. Trump had his own failings that have been discussed at length in this thread.
Click to expand...

Instead of writing an informed, well-reasoned dissertation countering each of your points, I'm just going to say this:

WRONG.
 
X

Xe4

Banned
King Tubby said:
Trump's "Honest Abe" comeback I thought was rather effective. It was almost reminiscent of the famous Lloyd Bentsen retort in his 1988 debate with Dan Quayle, although it was itself neutered by the fact that Trump is racist as fuck.
Click to expand...
What? There's no way those were even close. "You're no Jack Kennedy" is a classic. Trump's response was stupid and factually false, and could only look good because people's expectations were so low, as with anything else he did.

That was Hillary's worst moment of the night, and any decent candidate would've dragged her through the mud for it. Luckily, Trump is not a decent candidate.
 
K

King Tubby

Member
HotHamBoy said:
Instead of writing an informed, well-reasoned dissertation countering each of your points, I'm just going to say this:

WRONG.
Click to expand...

I hope you're right and the debate just sends Trump spiraling even lower (will be hard to measure as its impact is likely to be conflated with the pussy tape). I will say I was rather surprised to see Hillary win post debate polls by certain margins.

Xe4 said:
What? There's no way those were even close. "You're no Jack Kennedy" is a classic. Trump's response was stupid and factually false, and could only look good because people's expectations were so low, as with anything else he did.

That was Hillary's worst moment of the night, and any decent candidate would've dragged her through the mud for it. Luckily, Trump is not a decent candidate.
Click to expand...

You contradict yourself from one paragraph to the next. It could only look good because of expectations, but it was Hillary's worst moment of the night? It was a good, memorable attack that touched on Hillary's biggest weakness with the public, her perceived lack of trustworthiness. It didn't have the impact of the Jack Kennedy line, of course, but that is what he was going for.
 
A

Aaronology

Member
King Tubby said:
I hope you're right and the debate just sends Trump spiraling even lower (will be hard to measure as its impact is likely to be conflated with the pussy tape). I will say I was rather surprised to see Hillary win post debate polls by certain margins.
Click to expand...
Why? And, secondly, were you also surprised to see her come out on top after the last debate?
 
O

OrangeGrayBlue

Member
Xe4 said:
What? There's no way those were even close. "You're no Jack Kennedy" is a classic. Trump's response was stupid and factually false, and could only look good because people's expectations were so low, as with anything else he did.

That was Hillary's worst moment of the night, and any decent candidate would've dragged her through the mud for it. Luckily, Trump is not a decent candidate.
Click to expand...

Yeah. If someone judges the winner of a presidential debate by the same metric they would judge a freestyle rap battle, then yeah Trump won.

But if you judge a presidential debate on the basis of who made the best case for their political platform, I don't think I heard much from Trump that was even coherent, much less agreeable.
 
C

CHC

Member
chadskin said:
#crookedpolls

CuczUiVWcAAi-b6.jpg
Click to expand...

LegalEagleMike said:
I remember all of the talk about big crowds for Romney in the last couple weeks leading up to the election. How can Romney lose with such big crowds!
Click to expand...

It's just going to make it such a spectacular loss when it happens. That's the whole ideology of the right - believe what you see, nothing more. So the mark of success is "looks like a big crowd!" or "lots of people are saying" while the actual numbers are denied.

Which is fine, they can be as deluded as they want.
 
K

King Tubby

Member
Aaronology said:
Why? And, secondly, were you also surprised to see her come out on top after the last debate?
Click to expand...

For reasons I outlined in previous posts in this thread. I was not surprised to see Hillary win the first debate actually, I thought she really schooled him. I also thought Kaine did a much better job (and won) in his debate than the public seemed to think, so I'm partly trying to calibrate for that. Like, if being on point with the facts were really that important, that debate should've been a total bloodbath for Kaine, but people put Pence on top.

OrangeGrayBlue said:
Yeah. If someone judges the winner of a presidential debate by the same metric they would judge a freestyle rap battle, then yeah Trump won.
Click to expand...

~America~
 
V

Veelk

Banned
King Tubby said:
Given everything that had happened in the past 48 hours and his position in the polls, Trump should basically have been hammered the entire time not just for the tapes but for, well, everything Trump. Instead he went into "give no fucks" mode and delivered perhaps the most bizarre presidential debate of all time; more importantly for himself, he kept the debate from being a 90 minute "fuck Trump" session and somehow managed to force Hillary onto the defensive.

He dragged out every piece of baggage that has dogged her political career, including a lot of things that resonate with the average American voter (including people who support Hillary - it bears repeating that she still isn't very well liked by the general population even if she is winning handily). Hillary's flaw here was that she didn't do enough to respond to those attacks, partly because there was a lot of lies and weird infowars crap sprinkled in there (Trump pointing at her every time he said "George Soros" was laughable), but also partly because she didn't really have any good response.

As much of a stunt as it was, bringing out Bill Clinton's accusers and making them a topic of discussion at the very beginning almost neutered the use of Trump's tapes against him. Hillary should have found ways to work that in more often throughout the debate, but I got a sense that she wanted to move away from that subject. Trump's "Honest Abe" comeback I thought was rather effective. It was almost reminiscent of the famous Lloyd Bentsen retort in his 1988 debate with Dan Quayle, although it was itself neutered by the fact that Trump is racist as fuck. I think his tying Clinton to the moneyed class w/r/t taxes and her legislative history also probably resonated with the general public. In my eyes he got a number of hits in that he had failed to deliver in the first debate, and Hillary didn't hit him back hard enough/counterattack all that effectively.

It was a showing good enough that the Republican party apparatus has not yet completely abandoned him, which even his VP made into an open question pre-debate. That said, it wasn't enough to really change his odds, and I doubt anything he did could have put him in much of a better position. Trump had his own failings that have been discussed at length in this thread.
Click to expand...

I felt much the same way after watching the debate, but a lot of posters made rather good arguments for why Hillary's responses were good. Mainly it's because it's a matter of not getting down to Trump's level.

The main thrust of it is that Trump was basically gish galloping. Almost nothing he said was of any substance and he looked like a fucking lunatic the entire time, even without Hillary's prodding. But because he's spewing the epic amount of bullshit that he is, it's basically impossible for Hillary, with the short timeframe of 120 seconds she has, to effectively break down why any given point is bullshit and why her answers are usually the better ones. That whole Abraham Lincoln remark...it was a bad question taken out of context, and when she put it back in context, it made perfect sense, but it wasn't something that can be effectively communicated in that short a time frame. She wasn't even saying she was Abe Lincoln, but she was remarking on the nature of how one has to present different arguments to different groups who have different values. It's a legitimate point, but you try condensing that into 2 minutes while some jackass brays at you.

I would be more worried if the polls didn't show Hillary dominating Trump with a double digit lead. I'm agree with you insofar that I still believe there must be some line of response that could effectively deflate Trump's trumpism while also providing substantial policies, but it's hard to do that with the kind of short time frame she's given. That's why every other response she gave was "Everything he just said is bullshit. It's more like this..." and then she just let Trump embarass himself while she sat back and watched the fireworks. I do agree that he got in some good hits, but the debate on the whole was still a disaster for him, so she clearly did something right, and it's reflected in the polls. That's ultimately what matters.
 
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