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Gears of War 4 Microtransactions are Out of Control

JulianImp

Member
With trading cards, you're...well...trading the cards. Gambling assumes that the cards, dice, or whatever, is the mechanism to determine who wins money based on a stake.

I'd say this is far more like trading cards than gambling, since there is no cash payout.

But there you're, like you said, trading the cards. In games such as Magic, the secondary market is a pretty important thing, not only for the players, but also for Wizards of the Coast and large singles sellers, and you can always trade your cards to other people, sometimes for market price and sometimes for more or less (maybe some player really likes collecting angel cards and will trade you extra for one, or doesn't care about a card s/he doesn't intend to play anyway so s/he's willing to trade it away for cheap). The secondary market means you can crack $4 booster packs to get a shot at getting expensive chase cards... or you can go to your secondary market vendor of choice and get just the card you want for a price dictated by how powerful and in demand the card happens to be at the time.

In these kind of games, the random loot is often stuck in your account once you get it, so you can't actually trade your items for other people's in order to get the ones you want. Even that game dynamic alone makes for a huge difference, since the whale could trade their surplus items (or ones they don't even care about) to get the one thing they do want with more ease, and of course the game economy doesn't want them to do that.

Basically, the system relies on people not getting what they want with the hopes that they will continue feeding the company money until they do, and that's what some of us here are condemning.
 

krang

Member
But there you're, like you said, trading the cards. In games such as Magic, the secondary market is a pretty important thing, not only for the players, but also for Wizards of the Coast and large singles sellers, and you can always trade your cards to other people, sometimes for market price and sometimes for more or less (maybe some player really likes collecting angel cards and will trade you extra for one, or doesn't care about a card s/he doesn't intend to play anyway so s/he's willing to trade it away for cheap). The secondary market means you can crack $4 booster packs to get a shot at getting expensive chase cards... or you can go to your secondary market vendor of choice and get just the card you want for a price dictated by how powerful and in demand the card happens to be at the time.

In these kind of games, the random loot is often stuck in your account once you get it, so you can't actually trade your items for other people's in order to get the ones you want. Even that game dynamic alone makes for a huge difference, since the whale could trade their surplus items (or ones they don't even care about) to get the one thing they do want.

Basically, the system relies on people not getting what they want with the hopes that they will continue feeding the company money until they do, and that's what some of us here are condemning.

I think you're concentrating on the wrong part of the comparison.
 

JulianImp

Member
I think you're concentrating on the wrong part of the comparison.

If you're talking about the fact that there's no money on the line with loot boxes, unlike with actual gambling, then you might want to look into things such as the anti compu-gacha law passed in Japan in 2012 (link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_gacha).

An excerpt from one of the articles cited as references states the following:
The worst thing is, game providers do not make the odds public. Unless the real numbers are given, players will never know the real probability even if they understand the math in my examples above.

In a follow-up report on May 14, the Yomiuri interviewed a 30-year-old social-game engineer who revealed that he routinely adjusts odds based on the transition of real-time item sales, the number of playing users and so on. The engineer, who requested to keep both himself and the company anonymous, said to Yomiuri that the success of social games depends on how to keep the addicted paying users playing longer, without exploiting them so much that they give up.

Basically, that's another deadly trap that computer games can leverage compared to card games: a Magic: the Gathering pack states the rates of each card rarity, as well as on rarer holographic cards and other kinds of special product that might be inside a pack. However, videogames aren't asked to disclose their odds, which makes it impossible to know if companies are actually playing fair with their item lotteries. That, IMO, is something that is worth looking into at the very least.
 

Ricky_R

Member
Sorry if I come across as being overly reiterative, but the bolded is exactly what's going on here.

People paying for a $500 in-game monocle is one thing (in that case, it's more of a kitsch sign of status and power, same as with people who buy luxury goods IRL), but things begin getting scary when you're gambling with an undisclosed pseudorandom loot generator that is known to be built from the ground up to abuse people with compulsive gambling habits.

Yeah, that's not cool. If that's the general case in most games today where developers try to take advantage of people in a misleading way then it's problematic. If it's a non-invasive, straight forward system that lets you buy stuff, then I don't see the problem. There has to be some form restrain from the user though. I don't think developers should be responsible for people who can't control themselves from buying stuff if they aren't being tricked into doing so.

It's like complaining to Walgreens about the products they surround you with while you're in line, because you can't help yourself. It should be evaluated case by case, imo.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Skill cards. These cards are +Extra Damage, +Extra Ammo, Take less damage, reduce costs to build stuff, those kinds of things.

You literally cannot play hardcore or insane outright because you have no cards, you'll simply die incredibly quickly and do no damage and run out of ammo. Even normal can be seen as a little grindy when you start out.

How many cards can you have on? Depends on the level of your class, you can only start out with 1 card at level 1. 2 cards at level 3, 3 cards at level 5, etc. etc.

How do you get more cards? Playing Horde for the first 10 waves gives you about 400 coins, which then you can spend on a crate. The crate has 5 random skill cards in it that can be for any class AND you can receive duplicates. Playing versus also gives coins but I dont know if its a decent amount, I assume if you suck and lose a lot you won't be getting many coins.

Jesus, they fucked over Horde mode for this? I didn't mind seeing them in regular MP because whatever, but wow.
 

Hoo-doo

Banned
Why is this akin to gambling and not to say....trading cards?

Or are trading cards considered a form of gambling also?

Serious question.

When you exploit psychological slot machine mechanics to such an extent with only the intent to get people to drop more and more money, it goes from completely unwanted to downright scummy.

It's it's own category. To imply they aren't using tried-and-true gambling mechanics and incentivizers here is a bold-faced lie. Everything around the mode is geared towards getting you to part with your money for another spin of the randomizer.
 

Alienous

Member
I'm really tired of publishers kneecapping the fun of their own games for the sake of microtransactions.

They're rewarded for making the game an unfun grind with microtransaction money. It's the worst thing about this generation of gaming.
 

blakep267

Member
Jesus, they fucked over Horde mode for this? I didn't mind seeing them in regular MP because whatever, but wow.
I see people keep mentioning this but idk what they are talking about. Me and my friends ran insane horse mode for 40 or so levels with just the standard stuff we were given. We didn't need to buy anything
 

creatchee

Member
I think you're concentrating on the wrong part of the comparison.

The only way that this would be more like trading cards was if, in trading cards, each card had a set value EXCLUSIVELY determined by the card's manufacturer, that manufacturer did not allow you to trade, sell, or otherwise transfer the cards to anybody else, and your only recourse when you get a duplicate of a card is to give that (otherwise useless) copy back to the manufacturer for 1/4 to 1/8 of its value as a trade-in credit.

It's basically the worst parts of trading cards and gambling combined with a dash of Gamestop.
 

Hjod

Banned
I get the comparison with trading cards, but trading cards are not really made to be addictive, they are up front with their odds. With loot boxes the companies know exactly what they are doing when they cater to people who easily gets addicted to stuff like gambling. I mean they throw around terms like whale and dolphin, the same terms being used in casinos.

I'm not saying that micro transactions should be banned, I just want more transparency and oversight before it gets worse, and worse it will get.
 

Moofers

Member
I had no idea this was a problem for people, I can get the pack that is 3,500 credits in like 2-3 hours, which is a normal playtime for me.

But most of all, cosmetics aren't important to me, but are fun to see. I wasn't aching for my Lancer to look sky blue with white hearts, but I got it and I like it alot.

I don't think its a problem, even the Horde mode packs that help only help a little and aren't over-powering.

You're out of your depth. The Horde cards are essential for playing at the higher difficulty levels and if you're interested in chasing the leaderboards, that's where you need to play. My Engineer is level 4 with two skills maxed at level 5. I repair all fortifications at a very fast rate as well as a way lower price than any other class. I also enjoy a skill where all barriers built by me have 50% extra health. So any of those that I build will be way more durable than the ones my teammates could build. That's a big difference.

My scout is only level 2 but I have a deposit bonus of 40% right now for all the power I pick up and drop at the fabricator. So if I'm bringing back 10,000 in power, that becomes 14,000 power. That's a big difference.

My friend has a Heavy leveled up to 7 so he has 3 skills equipped. He can get us Mortar Strikes (which is an epic skill) and he does 50% extra damage to marked enemies. He also does something like 50% extra damage while using a turret. Say it with me, THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, if you were able to afford a pack for 3,500 after just two hours of play, you're not playing Horde, or you started at level 1 and jumped a bunch from the Double XP weekend. I have no idea what the rate is for VS as I am a Horde player, but I know that at level 54 where I am now, It takes a lot longer than a couple of hours to earn 3,500.
 

LAA

Member
I'm really tired of publishers kneecapping the fun of their own games for the sake of microtransactions.

They're rewarded for making the game an unfun grind with microtransaction money. It's the worst thing about this generation of gaming.

Great comment and exactly the case, and very annoyingly, I mean if just one person buys a microtransaction, it's made it worth it for them in the end as it's extra money they wouldn't have got otherwise, though they'd have to weigh up if it was worth the negative reaction compared to the money, probably the money would always win.
I think I have faith though that the devs who don't do microtransactions would probably get more support if the future is just every game has microtransactions.
 
I see people keep mentioning this but idk what they are talking about. Me and my friends ran insane horse mode for 40 or so levels with just the standard stuff we were given. We didn't need to buy anything

Can't even hit 50? Noobs. Buy our packs and beat level 50 today!
 

Moofers

Member
I see people keep mentioning this but idk what they are talking about. Me and my friends ran insane horse mode for 40 or so levels with just the standard stuff we were given. We didn't need to buy anything

That's interesting. You are all either very VERY good or you're full of shit. I'm not sure which.

Anyone here watch the "First to 50" event that took place at PAX this year? Two teams of dedicated players raced each other to reach Wave 50 before the other team. They played on Hardcore with level 7 characters which gave them each 3 skills to equip. Nobody beat wave 50 and one team almost didn't clear wave 40.

So 10 players with level 7 skills couldn't beat Hardcore, but you and your buddies nearly beat Insane with level 1 characters?
 

blakep267

Member
Can't even hit 50? Noobs. Buy our packs and beat level 50 today!
Got boring after a while. I'm not that into playing for 3 hours. That's why I'm not liking horde that much. The first 20 waves are cool then it just turns to blah

That's interesting. You are all either very VERY good or you're full of shit. I'm not sure which.

Anyone here watch the "First to 50" event that took place at PAX this year? Two teams of dedicated players raced each other to reach Wave 50 before the other team. They played on Hardcore with level 7 characters which gave them each 3 skills to equip. Nobody beat wave 50 and one team almost didn't clear wave 40.

So 10 players with level 7 skills couldn't beat Hardcore, but you and your buddies nearly beat Insane with level 1 characters?
? Insults. I was a standard scout with the extra 10% deposit boost that was free. My other buddy was a sniper, we had a heavy etc. it was gridlock. We posted on that one tower and just farmed

Also why are you comparing people playing for the first time on a stream and also I watched it and they weren't very good
 
It would be a simple fix... just increase the credit earnings. Halo 5 got it right, 3 warzone matches and you have enough for a silver pack.
 

blakep267

Member
It would be a simple fix... just increase the credit earnings. Halo 5 got it right, 3 warzone matches and you have enough for a silver pack.
They don't have enough content to do that. Halo has a ridiculous amount of stuff to unlock. Gears pales in comparison. They would need many more weapon skins & character variants maybe if they included past skins of like locust people etc

If each elite pack gives you 5 things, you'd probably max out everything in a week
 
You're out of your depth. The Horde cards are essential for playing at the higher difficulty levels and if you're interested in chasing the leaderboards, that's where you need to play. My Engineer is level 4 with two skills maxed at level 5. I repair all fortifications at a very fast rate as well as a way lower price than any other class. I also enjoy a skill where all barriers built by me have 50% extra health. So any of those that I build will be way more durable than the ones my teammates could build. That's a big difference.

My scout is only level 2 but I have a deposit bonus of 40% right now for all the power I pick up and drop at the fabricator. So if I'm bringing back 10,000 in power, that becomes 14,000 power. That's a big difference.

My friend has a Heavy leveled up to 7 so he has 3 skills equipped. He can get us Mortar Strikes (which is an epic skill) and he does 50% extra damage to marked enemies. He also does something like 50% extra damage while using a turret. Say it with me, THAT'S A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also, if you were able to afford a pack for 3,500 after just two hours of play, you're not playing Horde, or you started at level 1 and jumped a bunch from the Double XP weekend. I have no idea what the rate is for VS as I am a Horde player, but I know that at level 54 where I am now, It takes a lot longer than a couple of hours to earn 3,500.

Oh know I see what you guys are talking about, thanks for clarifying that up. I agree then what is being said by most of you being this the case. They'll just have to readjust and see what works much better, as well as throw in more earn-able content like Halo 5.
 

JulianImp

Member
It would be a simple fix... just increase the credit earnings. Halo 5 got it right.

And that's another thing that's sad about the thread, the fact that the complaints aren't coming from how the game uses an undisclosed pseudorandom system that preys upon gamblers, but only that the in-game currency required to get a chance to roll the dice for free takes too long to get.

If the outcry ever reached dangerous levels for them they'd probably just bump the currency gain and call it adaywhile still keeping the awful whale-abusing systems because, after all, that's the only kind of users they're really after.
 

E92 M3

Member
If the game is good, I don't care about microtransactions. I have easily spent over $100 on Destiny purchases. In general, I don't get the big deal about microtransactions. Don't support shitty games and it will be fine.

I wish people who spend hundreds of dollars on cosmetic items would rather donate it to charity.

Very juvenile comment. People can spend their money however they want.
 

EL CUCO

Member
That's interesting. You are all either very VERY good or you're full of shit. I'm not sure which.

Anyone here watch the "First to 50" event that took place at PAX this year? Two teams of dedicated players raced each other to reach Wave 50 before the other team. They played on Hardcore with level 7 characters which gave them each 3 skills to equip. Nobody beat wave 50 and one team almost didn't clear wave 40.

So 10 players with level 7 skills couldn't beat Hardcore, but you and your buddies nearly beat Insane with level 1 characters?
It's all about strategy and map awareness. Someone on Reddit posted about beating wave 50 on Insane the other day. He had the team break down and tips on his post. Even right here on GAF you could get some good information. That stream doesn't really say much, other than challenging content is challenging and should be approached as such.
 

Falcker

Member
Wonder if game reviews should have a rating for microtransactions, if a bad MTX system effected the meta critic would it deter publishers from abusive systems?
 

malfcn

Member
I had no idea this was a problem for people, I can get the pack that is 3,500 credits in like 2-3 hours, which is a normal playtime for me.

How are you getting that much?
Most games net about 50.

3500/50=70 games
3*60=180 minutes
180/70= 2.57 minutes a game.

That is extremely fast.

Before the update it was much more of a grind. There is supposed to be 500 every 5 levels of so, but the higher level the longer it takes to rank up.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
you can play fine without cards on hardcore, that poster is being hyperbolic

This is what I don't quite get.

I've played plenty of horde already and it just feels like I'm playing horde. If I happen to see some credits built up and I can afford a pack, I'll grab it and see what I get.
 
I'm really disappointed in the team for implementing this system. It's straight highway robbery and I'm gonna hold off on gears until they improve it. Which is sad because it's my favorite franchise and I was a day zero player. Gross
 

aBarreras

Member
This is what I don't quite get.

I've played plenty of horde already and it just feels like I'm playing horde. If I happen to see some credits built up and I can afford a pack, I'll grab it and see what I get.

horde is totally fine, cooperation and team works is still more important than perks and skills, the credits could receive a boosts but yeah, you can buy "horde packs" easily

I'm really disappointed in the team for implementing this system. It's straight highway robbery and I'm gonna hold off on gears until they improve it. Which is sad because it's my favorite franchise and I was a day zero player. Gross

this shit right here, why would you stop playing a game just because of this? i mean cmon, if you dont like the Microtransactions dont use them, the game is perfectly playable and probably the best gameplaywise on the franchise
 

BHK3

Banned
That's interesting. You are all either very VERY good or you're full of shit. I'm not sure which.

Anyone here watch the "First to 50" event that took place at PAX this year? Two teams of dedicated players raced each other to reach Wave 50 before the other team. They played on Hardcore with level 7 characters which gave them each 3 skills to equip. Nobody beat wave 50 and one team almost didn't clear wave 40.

So 10 players with level 7 skills couldn't beat Hardcore, but you and your buddies nearly beat Insane with level 1 characters?

I'm not gonna say he's *totally* full of shit, but the players in that stream were terrible to say the least. I just did a hardcore run with two beginners with me and another guy doing most of the work, we had the kids on the turrets. Did 25 waves with some difficulty on wave 20 before we had to bail but it's not impossible to simply carry everyone through a certain amount of waves.
 

Cyanity

Banned
The cost of modern AAA.
You want games bigger, longer, prettier, more content for same $60, better accept that and let whales fund part of it.

This is such a dumb sentiment. If we let mobile game cash grabs seep into full-priced AAA games that are supposed to be FUN, then this type of microtransaction bullshit is unacceptable. MT's have been shown time and time again to influence game design in a way that makes the end product just not fun compared to what it could have been. Look to Overwatch for an example of a loot system with MTs that actually works and doesn't make the game less enjoyable to play.
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
So after a day with BF1;

Almost after every round it gave me a free Battlepack in the "roulette" it does at the end of the match.
Why is this so hard for Gears to do when you finish wave 50 or something?

It felt very rewarding compared to gears to get free cosmetics and such for doing good and playing the objectives than just straight up grinding over what feels like nothing.
 

IISANDERII

Member
So after a day with BF1;

Almost after every round it gave me a free Battlepack in the "roulette" it does at the end of the match.
Why is this so hard for Gears to do when you finish wave 50 or something?

It felt very rewarding compared to gears to get free cosmetics and such for doing good and playing the objectives than just straight up grinding over what feels like nothing.
What do they give you in the Battle packages?
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
What do they give you in the Battle packages?

All I've gotten is cosmetics version of guns, like skins.

But they look cool and you can scrap them and buy other packs should you get dupes for a chance of any of the others.

It's nothing major or "progression" but you still feel like you're earning SOMETHING extra by playing.

How hard can it be for TC to just add a horde pack at the end of each match?
 

Raptomex

Member
I'll wait for an ultimate edition or something. But the pay extra to play early and the excessive microtransactions are turning me off big time. I was never a huge Gears fan and don't ever play multiplayer in anything so I'm definitely waiting this out. I barely remember the events in Gears 3 and my favorite was 2.
 
this week they launched a $100 "micro" transaction pack. In-fucking-sane.
giphy.gif
 

etta

my hard graphic balls
I agree. The credit drop rate is way too low. Or prices way too high.
I think it's the most disproportionate I've seen so far. Infinite Warfare's salvage drop rate seems absurdly low as well.
 
Micro transactions have gotten out of hand, this shit needs to to stop or truly be cosmetic.

2K VC has turned me off of the game, the same goes for cod. I pray they don't add that nonsense in MWR.
 

Calibos

Member
Pretty sure that this will be the future for every game eventually.


My stance is who gives a fuck really? They are not required to buy here to enjoy the game at all. They can make Horde easier, but so what?..it's PVE.

Companies are going to make money however they can and I love games too much to protest by not purchasing so it is what it is from my perspective.
 

Deadstar

Member
Are the micro transaction items in gears cosmetic only? I don't have the game and I'm sorry if that has already been answered.

They affect gameplay. The unlocks you'd earn in any other game are only given to you randomly through a gambling card system. The game would be more fun if you progressed through the unlocks by playing the game, not by gambling.

Pretty sure that this will be the future for every game eventually.


My stance is who gives a fuck really? They are not required to buy here to enjoy the game at all. They can make Horde easier, but so what?..it's PVE.

Companies are going to make money however they can and I love games too much to protest by not purchasing so it is what it is from my perspective.

This is a terrible attitude to have. Yeah it's PVE and that's what I play exclusively. They put this level up system in the game but it's random and it's slow. It's just a bad gameplay experience. I know that they are hoping to get rich off cards and good luck to them, but card packs should only offer cosmetic items, not gameplay items. It's just too random. I won't be spending money on these as I already spent money on the game. I'm not an idiot.
 
They affect gameplay. The unlocks you'd earn in any other game are only given to you randomly through a gambling card system. The game would be more fun if you progressed through the unlocks by playing the game, not by gambling.



This is a terrible attitude to have. Yeah it's PVE and that's what I play exclusively. They put this level up system in the game but it's random and it's slow. It's just a bad gameplay experience. I know that they are hoping to get rich off cards and good luck to them, but card packs should only offer cosmetic items, not gameplay items. It's just too random. I won't be spending money on these as I already spent money on the game. I'm not an idiot.

Are those unlocks just cosmetic though? Not like a new weapon or weapon damage upgrade?

More like weapon skins or character skins?
 
Are those unlocks just cosmetic though? Not like a new weapon or weapon damage upgrade?

More like weapon skins or character skins?

No, they are gameplay. You see damage upgrades, health and speed boosts, new weapons, and all sorts of other perks.

You also have some cosmetic unlocks (only in other packs, I think) and bounty mission cards, which if you get lucky are the fastest way to level up. For example I only have Engineer bounties right now, but I don't want to play that class (because everybody else already is) so I am screwed.
 
I see people keep mentioning this but idk what they are talking about. Me and my friends ran insane horse mode for 40 or so levels with just the standard stuff we were given. We didn't need to buy anything

Exactly, people are going a bit extreme with this.

Oh no how will I beat this wave unless I equip this 20% more Lancer ammo card!

Get out of here with that noise.
 

Montresor

Member
Halo 5 never saw this kind of shitstorm and with good reason.


The Coalition needs to take a long, hard look at their economy system, both credit payouts and cost of microtransactions.

They need to very very dramatically increase credit payouts and slightly/moderately decrease cost of microtransactions.

Do the right thing, TC / Microsoft / Rod Fergusson.
 

Deadstar

Member
Are those unlocks just cosmetic though? Not like a new weapon or weapon damage upgrade?

More like weapon skins or character skins?

Basically as you level up your character you unlock more slots to use with skill cards. So at lvl 1 and 2 you only can use one skill card. Then when you hit level 3 you get the "opportunity" to use another skill. Now you have two skills to use. These skills, as others have said, increase weapon damage and enhance the perks of the class you are playing. It's unlikely anyone will ever see all the perks without pouring a ridiculous amount of hours into the game or by spending money. It's really a shame. Horde mode is very fun, but it would be more fun if you unlocked this stuff by playing instead of hoping to get it by gambling.
 
Enjoy your modern AAA games: xp systems, grinding, tombolas, loot, carrots, fluff, economy, auctions, micro transactions and anything exploiting gamer's psychology and addiction.

It's just going to get worse and at some point it will be just be a giant casino in disguise.
And gamers will love it.
 
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