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[gtj1092]

Oh I see. Well, your model breaks at (2) - the bolded part.


A former gamedev. I still do sw optimisations and thus scrutinize uarchs for a living, though.

Having read your post since the WUST threads it would seem no Nintendo hardware can be underwhelming. I would say it's true personal expectations determine whether something is underwhelming you always argue somehow Nintendo's systems are better than the competition.

 

[Manoko]

Am I the only one seeing Zelda running at an horrendous framerate while in handheld mode in the Switch trailer ?
When Link is fighting the big purple ogre. Around 37 seconds into the video.

If anything, it's a big indication of how close or even underpowered the handheld is compared to a Wii U.
Isn't it ?

 

[Pie and Beans]

For new page:

The Nintendo Cycle of people using the "ah but it'll be able to do PS_/XB_ graphics, just at lower resolutions!!" started with:

The Wii
Didn't happen.
Entirely different versions made of other games.

then

The WiiU
Belief if would be on par with PS4/Xbone. Obviously wasn't.
Special sauce, obsession with chipsets and GPU comparisons.

and now

The Switch
People misunderstanding that because its a portable, that sets a specific baseline for ALL games to run on.
More of that clinging to GPU names, assuming all graphics cards are made equal.
Fingers in ears over every single true rumour source also mentioning its below Xbox One by a fair tick.

Mix in with a little "grafix dont matter anyway m8" and bang, THE CYCLE.

I mean this thing is gonna be a cool portable. A sequel to the Vita's principles! A Monster Hunter that doesn't look like dogshit! It's just not, however, going to be getting those mid-gen third party PS4/Xbone games because they're too far out of its comfort zone. Just like the WiiU really. It will remain to be seen what can be done/nerfed/gutted with the UE4 versions of Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy 7, and Dragon Quest 11 to get them onto NX, if they happen. Expect the Switch versions to be like the PS3/Xbox 360 versions of things like Tomb Raider and others rather than expecting on-par.

The draw here is that its portable, so ya'll have to leave home console expectations behind. Nintendo ain't making those boxes no more, they're out.

Am I the only one seeing Zelda running at an horrendous framerate while in handheld mode in the Switch trailer ?
When Link is fighting the big purple ogre.

If anything, it's a big indication of how close or even underpowered the handheld is compared to a Wii U.
Isn't it ?

Rumour has it the entire Switch announce was held up by Mario running like shit, and they knew they needed at least one game looking ready to go. Zelda may just be in that same period where they need to tighten up framerate a lot, ala Final Fantasy XV at the start of the year to now. Open world games haaaaaate being ported to different architecture.

I think it'll be fine.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Am I the only one seeing Zelda running at an horrendous framerate while in handheld mode in the Switch trailer ?
When Link is fighting the big purple ogre. Around 37 seconds into the video.

If anything, it's a big indication of how close or even underpowered the handheld is compared to a Wii U.
Isn't it ?

It's not real time footage. It's been edited into the video, as all game footage is edited into all commercial-like videos. We have no idea what hardware that footage was running on.

The framerate drop you are seeing is also during the slow-mo arrow shooting, so it's likely just the slow motion effect.

 

[nynt9]

Seriously, even Nintendo isn't that stupid. Come on now. They traditionally aren't the company to pull a bait and switch on their systems graphics.

Oh really? They revealed the WiiU with this, I must have missed it's release!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fyOkrteqM

 

[Manoko]

It's not real time footage. It's been edited into the video, as all game footage is edited into all commercial-like videos. We have no idea what hardware that footage was running on.

The framerate drop you are seeing is also during the slow-mo arrow shooting, so it's likely just the slow motion effect.

Not it's not.
It's before the arrow shooting too and after when the ogre is seen waking up.

 

[blu]

Come on, Wii, Wii U, DS, and 3DS is a rather long series of hardware that was underwhelming as fuck compared to its respective competition.

If anything, Switch would break that trend with ~512 GFlops in a portable.

Which is precisely what I meant. I guess I did not articulate it.

Having read your post since the WUST threads it would seem no Nintendo hardware can be underwhelming. I would say it's true personal expectations determine whether something is underwhelming you always argue somehow Nintendo's systems are better than the competition.

I do? Interesting.

As per the expectations part - no - I always speak from the perspective of what kind of sw could run on what kind of hw.

 

[Schnozberry]

Not it's not.
It's before the arrow shooting too and after when the ogre is seen waking up.

Are people assuming that the Zelda footage was actually running on Switch for the teaser? It was very obviously spliced in after the fact digitally.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Not it's not.
It's before the arrow shooting too and after when the ogre is seen waking up.

Dude. Don't make any judgments like this based on pre release spliced in footage

 

[Skittzo0413]

Not it's not.
It's before the arrow shooting too and after when the ogre is seen waking up.

Oh sorry, that's where I saw some slowdown so I assumed you were talking about the same thing.

Anyway, as I said this footage was edited in and we really have no idea what hardware it was running on. It shouldn't be taken as any indication of how any game performs especially when you are comparing it to the docked footage, since they've both been spliced in.

 

[Silent Hill]

Is this as powerful as a PS4?

 

[Django.Mango]

No one knows it.

edit, this thread is a very informative read. Just sayin.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Is this as powerful as a PS4?

We don't really know what's inside and we probably won't untill someone opens one up

 

[Pie and Beans]

Is this as powerful as a PS4?

No. Its below Xbox One and by at least a head.

 

[Astral Dog]

What about the rumours NS showing was delayed because they could not get 3D Mario to run well on the new system.

 

[bomblord1]

This is the part we're all arguing about right? I really don't see it as a lower fps than the gameplay before it but it doesn't help the video is only 23fps to begin with.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Oh really? They revealed the WiiU with this, I must have missed it's release!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fyOkrteqM

A tech demo which they claimed was a tech demo and not a game in development?

 

[Hoo-doo]

This is the part we're all arguing about right? I really don't see it as a lower fps than the gameplay before it but it doesn't help the video is only 23fps to begin with.

You can even see the video feed overlay move independently from the console itself.

It's not running on the actual device. It's meaningless.

 

[tarheel91]

You can even see the video feed overlay move independently from the console itself.

It's not running on the actual device. It's meaningless.

This is the most frustrating thing about this video. I see so much crap about the portable having "noticeable frame rate issues." That makes no sense as it's all overlaid. No one's actually using a piece of hardware in a commercial. The screen would be a glare-filled mess, and you'd have to worry about syncing up the refresh rates of the screen with the camera filming the commercial.

 

[EVH]

You can even see the video feed overlay move independently from the console itself.

It's not running on the actual device. It's meaningless.

This. There is no light coming out of that screen on any of the shots in the whole presentation video. This was just edited after that. They probably have like 4 or 5 versions of this video with other games being showcased in the same shots, lol.

 

[Thraktor]

Here's a question:

Assuming the active fan cooling during docking is a thing, and the chip runs at full clocks in this scenario, what do you think the maximum amount of heat generated will be?

I ask, because way back in response to the EG rumors in July, we had theorized potentially actively cooling the console in the dock, but if the general concept of the Switch is to be able to undock it at a moments notice, then it's possible that the unit gets excessively hot in the user's hands right after undocking. Notice in the video that the transition from console to handheld was presented as being seamless.

Could that heat be dissipated quickly enough due to the shape of the dock? Does anyone think this puts a theoretical limit on how much heat can be generated/how high the clocks can go?

I'd say 20W or so is as much as could be reasonable expected (probably 10-15W is more likely). The laptop I'm typing this on has a 45W CPU in a main body that's thinner than Switch, but it also has space for a much larger fan than Nintendo would be able to squeeze in there. I don't think cooling would really be much of an issue, to be honest, as you'd need something around 4 SMs @1.5GHz to actually hit 20W with Pascal (it's not exactly a power hogging architecture).

It's been heavily suggested that they haven't "confirmed" it because they don't want it to detract from Skyrim Remaster sales in the next few weeks.

Their PR department has obviously been told not to confirm any games. We've had plenty of developers/publishers confirm there's stuff on the way for Switch, but not a single game announcement since the reveal. Hell, Nintendo haven't even officially announced the new Mario game.

Actually, what it can and can't run is completely up in the air right now, seeing as all the trailer footage was edited in and not actually running on a Switch.

But if you guys are adamant that a battery-powered portable tablet like this is going to be able to push graphics similar to a big, boxed, actively cooled current-gen console that's powered by a wall socket at all times, then I don't know what to say. The tech really does not work like that, and expecting that outcome is foolish to say the least.

I certainly don't expect Switch to match XBO or PS4 in performance, but that's not to say it's impossible. Pascal is a vastly more power efficient architecture than the GCN 1.0/1.1 used in those consoles, particularly so when clocked down to the speeds you'd expect in a device such as this (a GTX1080 consumes just 36W when clocked to 1.06GHz, and Switch would have at most 1/5th as many SMs). And while we might give out about Nvidia giving out FP16 figures for Tegra's performance, after reading that UE4 actually runs all pixel shaders at half precision on mobile I'm actually thinking that it may be a more appropriate figure for well-optimised games.

Expect a handheld Wii-U. And even that is quite an achievement in this form-factor, honestly. The form factor alone would make it nigh impossible for the chips to reach their theoretical maximum performance anyway.

Not with active cooling, which seems to be a lock at this point. There's no reason they couldn't clock as high as 1.5GHz in a situation like that. Of course battery life becomes an issue, but they could just say to hell with battery life, or, as many have speculated, simply run at a lower clock when in portable mode and then increase the clock speed while docked to accommodate the higher resolution.

 

[Ishida]

Is this as powerful as a PS4?

Of course not. It's not even as powerful as the Xbox One.

 

[Bowl0l]

You can even see the video feed overlay move independently from the console itself.

It's not running on the actual device. It's meaningless.

Imagine that the actual product perform worse, worse than Wiiu in handheld mode.

 

[Lonely1]

Can people stop shit-posting with that Nintendo cycle crap, plz? It does not contribute anything to to the thread.

Not with active cooling, which seems to be a lock at this point. There's no reason they couldn't clock as high as 1.5GHz in a situation like that. Of course battery life becomes an issue, but they could just say to hell with battery life, or, as many have speculated, simply run at a lower clock when in portable mode and then increase the clock speed while docked to accommodate the higher resolution.

Or include a really good battery.

What about the rumours NS showing was delayed because they could not get 3D Mario to run well on the new system.

Which rumors?

 

[TLZ]

Come on, Wii, Wii U, DS, and 3DS is a rather long series of hardware that was underwhelming as fuck compared to its respective competition.

If anything, Switch would break that trend with ~512 GFlops in a portable.

Where are you getting the 512 from?

 

[Thraktor]

Where are you getting the 512 from?

It's the performance of the TX1 which was used in early dev kits.

 

[Lonely1]

It's the performance of the TX1 which was used in early dev kits.

Plus is supported by the active cooling and rumored ~3 hours of battery life.

 

[Boney]

For new page:

The Nintendo Cycle of people using the "ah but it'll be able to do PS_/XB_ graphics, just at lower resolutions!!" started with:

The Wii
Didn't happen.
Entirely different versions made of other games.

then

The WiiU
Belief if would be on par with PS4/Xbone. Obviously wasn't.
Special sauce, obsession with chipsets and GPU comparisons.

and now

The Switch
People misunderstanding that because its a portable, that sets a specific baseline for ALL games to run on.
More of that clinging to GPU names, assuming all graphics cards are made equal.
Fingers in ears over every single true rumour source also mentioning its below Xbox One by a fair tick.

Mix in with a little "grafix dont matter anyway m8" and bang, THE CYCLE.

I mean this thing is gonna be a cool portable. A sequel to the Vita's principles! A Monster Hunter that doesn't look like dogshit! It's just not, however, going to be getting those mid-gen third party PS4/Xbone games because they're too far out of its comfort zone. Just like the WiiU really. It will remain to be seen what can be done/nerfed/gutted with the UE4 versions of Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy 7, and Dragon Quest 11 to get them onto NX, if they happen. Expect the Switch versions to be like the PS3/Xbox 360 versions of things like Tomb Raider and others rather than expecting on-par.

The draw here is that its portable, so ya'll have to leave home console expectations behind. Nintendo ain't making those boxes no more, they're out.



Rumour has it the entire Switch announce was held up by Mario running like shit, and they knew they needed at least one game looking ready to go. Zelda may just be in that same period where they need to tighten up framerate a lot, ala Final Fantasy XV at the start of the year to now. Open world games haaaaaate being ported to different architecture.

I think it'll be fine.

It just needs to support appropriate middle ware and a little of demographically adequate. Wii was completely out for technical reasons. GC was left behind for demographic and PS2's insane popularity, especially with how specific was designing for consoles back then. Wii U even had big bottlenecks for 360/PS3 with CPU and nobody wanted to support it in the first place since it reeked rotten more than a year before launch, coming out completely tone deaf from the Wii generation and in a bubble where the generation was already transitioning.

If it supports the middle ware and runs above lowest settings recommended on PC, I'm sure it'll most likely be there. Especially with the way digital has off set retail through the years. Nintendo needs to provide a few incentives and some umbrellas and safety nets and it should get most stuff that aren't shooters.

 

[Astral Dog]

Can people stop shit-posting with that Nintendo cycle crap, plz? It does not contribute anything to to the thread.



Or include a really good battery.



Which rumors?

Ok im not sure but there was a twitter on a thread that "confirmed" the reveal was delayed for that reason but everything moves so fast on the NS cant find it

 

[Why would you do that?]

This is the part we're all arguing about right? I really don't see it as a lower fps than the gameplay before it but it doesn't help the video is only 23fps to begin with.

The game footage in the video is a lower FPS than the 23.9 FPS video. I checked it frame by frame and there are a lot of repeat frames in the game.

But as mentioned, it likely does not mean anything anyway.

 

[TLZ]

It's the performance of the TX1 which was used in early dev kits.

Oh... ok. For some reason I was expecting X2 numbers :/

Think I've read 1TF somewhere? Might've been a rumor and I mixed it up as insider leak.

 

[metareferential]

That's no off-screen footage. And damn those huge bezels. Hopefully the real thing isn't like that.

 

[tarheel91]

Oh... ok. For some reason I was expecting X2 numbers :/

Think I've read 1TF somewhere? Might've been a rumor and I mixed it up as insider leak.

There's a rumor floating around with a TX1 at 1GHz that's 512 MF 32bit and 1TF 16bit, I think, but it's not from a reliable source and completely unsubstantiated. Pascal makes a lot more sense than Maxwell, but nothing's confirmed. If Nintendo wanted to go all in on maximizing performance/battery life, they'd use as many Pascal SMs as possible at a lower frequency.

 

[Lonely1]

Oh... ok. For some reason I was expecting X2 numbers :/

Think I've read 1TF somewhere? Might've been a rumor and I mixed it up as insider leak.

TX1 Is 1TF of FP16. What is normally used is FP32, which halves the rate for this architecture. When fully clocked, Nvidia Parker (Tegra Pascal) can go up to ~750 Gflops, but is very unlikely you will see a fully clocked one on a handheld.

Can it be fully clocked while docked? Maybe, would be a nice feature.

 

[AGoodODST]

Not it's not.
It's before the arrow shooting too and after when the ogre is seen waking up.

It may just be the video. In the original E3 showing it looked like it ran like shit but it turned out it was just the video. When they played it live it was fine.

Or it might run like shit. Need more info really.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Watched IGN rewind on Switch and the dock appears to two HDMI ports on the left side. It's possible they're just vents for the power supply. But they are oddly shaped similarly to HDMI ports.

 

[valouris]

Watched IGN rewind on Switch and the dock appears to two HDMI ports on the left side. It's possible they're just vents for the power supply. But they are oddly shaped similarly to HDMI ports.

Those are probably USB ports

 

[Green Yoshi]

Can it run FIFA 17? I heard system requirements on PC are quite low.

 

[Schnozberry]

Rumour has it the entire Switch announce was held up by Mario running like shit, and they knew they needed at least one game looking ready to go. Zelda may just be in that same period where they need to tighten up framerate a lot, ala Final Fantasy XV at the start of the year to now. Open world games haaaaaate being ported to different architecture.

I think it'll be fine.

That's a bunch of FUD. There were no games running on the Switch for the reveal. It was just video spliced in digitally onto blank displays after the fact.

Care to share the source on the Mario rumor, because it sounds like tales from my ass since Mario ran like butter on much weaker hardware.

 

[Schnozberry]

Can it run FIFA 17? I heard system requirements on PC are quite low.

I would be shocked at this point Fifa and Madden weren't on the table. Maybe not at launch but certainly for the new releases in Summer/Fall.

 

[Skittzo0413]

That's a bunch of FUD. There were no games running on the Switch for the reveal. It was just video spliced in digitally onto blank displays after the fact.

Care to share the source on the Mario rumor, because it sounds like tales from my ass since Mario ran like butter on much weaker hardware.

If I recall correctly Tom Phillips (Eurogamer editor) tweeted that they were waiting to release the trailer until Mario ran decently. It could be that the footage we saw was from a VERY early build and the game isn't releasing until Holiday '17 or later. It doesn't mean Mario was running on the Switch, it's likely they just needed to create a stable enough development build.

I would be shocked at this point Fifa and Madden weren't on the table. Maybe not at launch but certainly for the new releases in Summer/Fall.

Also I think EA is contractually obligated to bring at least one installment of FIFA to any platform that can support it. At least that's something I've read here before.

 

[Schnozberry]

If I recall correctly Tom Phillips (Eurogamer editor) tweeted that they were waiting to release the trailer until Mario ran decently. It could be that the footage we saw was from a VERY early build and the game isn't releasing until Holiday '17 or later. It doesn't mean Mario was running on the Switch, it's likely they just needed to create a stable enough development build.

He did tweet that he heard the reveal was moved from September to October because of Mario, but in a follow up tweet he said it was running fine but they wanted it to be "perfect". It sounds Nintendo enough to be true but since they only ended up using 5-10 seconds of footage on a video running at 24fps, I question whether it was an actual reason or just an excuse to put it off closer to the investor briefing to cover for a negative financial quarter.

 

[Skittzo0413]

He did tweet that he heard the reveal was moved from September to October because of Mario, but in a follow up tweet he said it was running fine but they wanted it to be "perfect". It sounds Nintendo enough to be true but since they only ended up using 5-10 seconds of footage on a video running at 24fps, I question whether it was an actual reason or just an excuse to put it off closer to the investor briefing to cover for a negative financial quarter.

Ah I never saw that follow up tweet, thanks. Sounds a bit like a BS excuse, yeah.

 

[infinityBCRT]

Good catch. This dismantles Zlatan "insider info" completely in my opinion.



Parker has double the bandwidth of Tegra X1. What kind of effect require twice as much memory bandwidth?

I'm thinking along the lines of a game that its trying to look like Uncharted 4.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Watched IGN rewind on Switch and the dock appears to two HDMI ports on the left side. It's possible they're just vents for the power supply. But they are oddly shaped similarly to HDMI ports.

Are they orange?

 

[Lonely1]

A cryptic Nvidia Tegra device was recently uploaded to the GFX bench database!
And is significantly faster than the iPad Pro! Could this be the NX?

Source.

 

[Lonely1]

 

[KingSnake]

A cryptic Nvidia Tegra device was recently uploaded to the GFX bench database!
And is significantly faster than the iPad Pro! Could this be the NX?

Source.

That's Parker, going by the code (vcm31t186ref).

 

[defferoo]

A cryptic Nvidia Tegra device was recently uploaded to the GFX bench database!
And is significantly faster than the iPad Pro! Could this be the NX?

Source.

this looks like Tegra X2. 6 core CPU is a match for dual denver + quad cortex-A57, plus it's running Android. I doubt the Switch would use Android. In addition it has 7.5 GB of ram and probably 64 GB of storage. Could be the next shield tablet as it says it's a touchscreen.

 

[Lonely1]

That's Parker, going by the code (vcm31t186ref).

this looks like Tegra X2. 6 core CPU is a match for dual denver + quad cortex-A57, plus it's running Android. I doubt the Switch would use Android. In addition it has 7.5 GB of ram and probably 64 GB of storage. Could be the next shield tablet as it says it's a touchscreen.

Ah, the first time I'm seeing Parker benchmarks.