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[Octavia]

Just give different heads, different bodies, and different pant options. Mix and match how and what you want.

Regardless of your stance on the subject matter, this stuff isn't rocket science. It's really not that hard to swap out some skins and parts. Everybody wins and there's choices. That is good, no?

 

[GamerJM]

when it comes to social issues like this, where the problem may be really obvious to you, but may have never once occurred to someone who's never been exposed to it...is it bigotry, or is it ignorance?

To most people, identifying whether or not someone is a "Girl" or a "Boy" requires less processing time than identifying the color of their shirt. Putting a spin on this when you've never been really exposed to the concept on a personal level is bound to draw some reactions that seem inconsiderate or inflammatory.

I understand it can be hard to distinguish between who's doing out of ignorance / low exposure, or who's doing it out of malice. But the tenancy to just ban the person with the intolerant opinion while leaving someone who can get otherwise extremely inflammatory in expressing their offense with the statement is a moderation trend i notice here that's a bit troubling to me. I don't know whether it contributes to a good community, or just creates the illusion of one...but i've been seeing people get slapped with some serious flame for uneducated but seemingly innocent opinions since i've started posting here. Flame that's severe enough that i doubt it can be seen as educational.

I can't recall a time someone was banned here for expressing an opinion on something that was clearly rooted in ignorance, as long as it wasn't done so in a way that was mean-spirited. For this reason I have trouble believing that's why he was banned.

I'm not a mod though, so it's not really my place to say what is or isn't banworthy.

 

[Atanascovich]

Its Pokemon World. Only exist XX and XY there

 

[NoblesseOblige]

when it comes to social issues like this, where the problem may be really obvious to you, but may have never once occurred to someone who's never been exposed to it...is it bigotry, or is it ignorance?

When it's coming from SlaugherX? It sure sounds like it's more the former...

Still funny to me. You can put a puppy in clothes and a stroller but it doesnt make it a baby, so I dont see whats wrong with calling a trans man a man, thats how they were born and how I would always see them.

 

[Stromlord]

Definitely enjoyed Rust's take on the matter, I don't see why you should be able to pick sex or race, having a randomly assigned color, race, gender or whatever generally fits Pokemon's theme anyways, the player character merely wants to explore and become the best at Pokemon whether white, black, male, female, trandgender, hindu, christian, muslim or not, the appearences or origins never actually mattered in the first place.

And I could definitely see that having a positive influence on children to see all sorts of people represented equally, gender isn't a choice and I don't see why it should be one in a game such as Pokemon either, considering you are essentially a blank slate when starting off.

 

[Acerac]

Its Pokemon World. Only exist XX and XY there

Female Mr. Mimes have been around since gen 2.

Gender can be tough to understand sometimes, even in Pokemon.

 

[Alandrus]

so is accepting homophobia just because it isn't your 'culture' lmao!

It's good you cut out most of my argument, but I'm confused how this binary system is homophobia. As the original meat of my argument was detailing how this game is about an illusion of choice. As I say, boy or girl isn't so much "Are you a boy or girl" but "Are you Brendan or May?" From there, all you do is slap your name on May or Brendan and pretend it's not May or Brendan.

As my original post says, it's about the artists' intention. The "Boy" and "Girl" are already defined characters by the artists especially for those who are in the cartoon/anime series.

 

[DylanEno]

I'd rather have the ability to customize my character right from the get-go instead of having to, for example, have hair I don't identify with until a third through the game tbh

Also let me wear either gender's clothes regardless of what I am. If I can frolick about in a dress in New Leaf I should be able to do the same in Pokémon dammit

Just let me feel pretty Nintendo

 

[Okamid3n]

Also let me wear either gender's clothes regardless of what I am. If I can frolick about in a dress in New Leaf I should be able to do the same in Pokémon dammit

Just let me feel pretty Nintendo

PLEASE. That's all I want.

New Leaf has it right.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I think things are quite well the way they are. Anyone can choose either sex they prefer since it's just an avatar rather than a character. It's all up to you.

 

[LordKasual]

When it's coming from SlaugherX? It sure sounds like it's more the former...

Well im basically just talking about the benefit of the doubt, once that's gone then oh well lol

It's just...that kind of opinion isn't rare, or extreme. By all accounts, it's the norm. That's what we're trying to change, but considering the current state of things, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before judging them.


Although maybe im just being a hypocrite, because i probably judge people in real life off statements like that pretty fast.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I think things are quite well the way they are. Anyone can choose either sex they prefer since it's just an avatar rather than a character. It's all up to you.

What difference would it make if you could pick a male avatar and wear skirts and dresses? How is that any less alright? How isn't that not more up to you?

It just feels like a minimum effort thing that will make no difference to people who aren't interested in it.

 

[chillybright]

Also the pronoun issue can be solved easily with "they" or by just writing around it if they don't want to implement a custom solution. How often is the player character referred to by pronouns anyways?

That might work but only in English while Pokemon has to be localized everywhere.

And asking for writing around it is far from "solved easily" and almost impossible when you have some languages with gender specific verbs.

 

[ahkdigital]

I find it sad that the idea of a game asking if you're a boy or girl is becoming an offensive concept :/

Agreed. Please stop.

 

[truestatic]

I'd rather have the ability to customize my character right from the get-go instead of having to, for example, have hair I don't identify with until a third through the game tbh

Also let me wear either gender's clothes regardless of what I am. If I can frolick about in a dress in New Leaf I should be able to do the same in Pokémon dammit

Just let me feel pretty Nintendo

PLEASE. That's all I want.

New Leaf has it right.

Holy shit New Leaf was great for this.

 

[Tall4Life]

Agreed. Please stop.

No. One. In. This. Thread. Is. Arguing. That. The. Choice. Is. Offensive.

I feel like that needs to be stated in the thread title at this point, come on guys.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Agreed. Please stop.

Could you quote who is offended by the game asking the question? Or is it people existing in your imagination.

It's just...that kind of opinion isn't rare, or extreme. By all accounts, it's the norm. That's what we're trying to change, but considering the current state of things, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before judging them.

I've long grown tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt. There's an almost infinite wealth of knowledge and enlightenment available to us these days and people can't even seem to be arsed to familiarize themselves with the basics of a topic before injecting their ignorance into a discussion.

 

[Dmax3901]

I'm so glad this thread was reopened. It's been cathartic catching up and seeing all those greyed out names. Spring cleaning.

As a straight, white male I see nothing wrong with adding options. Basically:

Transgender Community: Hey everyone, so... we exist, and we like playing games. Reckon we could get a few changes in character creation that reflects our existence in this reality we all share?

Close Minded Morons: Fucking SJW's ruining video games everyone's offended you can't do or say anything these days fucking PC culture.

Transgender Community and Sane People:

EDIT: Also holy shit they're still coming! How do they not realise they'll be banned for this shit at this point?

 

[DylanEno]

Holy shit New Leaf was great for this.

Yeah everyone seems to give Nintendo shit but new leaf felt well ahead of most games when it comes to identity and expressing yourself

Now can you imagine if they'd instead made it so that cute emotes were exclusive to girls and "cool" emotes to boys

 

[DedValve]

Yeah, I guess I do.

I just think that, for a game aimed at kids, the distinction between "boy" and "girl" is enough. I wouldn't be up in arms if they did explicitly add more options, but to answer the question of "is it outdated?" I would still say no.

Kids can challenge gender norms at a very early age and are often confused about their gender precisely because we dont teach them that gender is fluid and is more of a spectrum than it is binary boy/girl.

Pokemon doing this would be more inclusive, not exclusive, kids wont really care except those who are beginng to question their gender and itll matter a lot to them.

 

[Not]

I liked Pokemon Go's "what appearance do you most identify with?" or something like that.

 

[besada]

I see we have a lot of new juniors. I highly recommend you familiarize yourself both with the ToS and the posting etiquette FAQ.

If you have questions or concerns regarding moderation, feel free to PM a moderator or send email to support@neogaf.com.

 

[Snowybreak]

I think the best way to settle this would be the question of "what do you look like?" And then just make all clothing choices gender neutral. And if guys find it weird that they can buy skirts, then just rename them to kilts when someone picks the masculine character.

...

Fuck, I wanna wear a kilt in a Pokemon game now.

 

[DedValve]

It seems like they don't even ask the question anymore?? I am sorry if this thread caused a bunch of fighting.

I didn't think it would end up a huge debate.

I apologize if it seemed like I was singling out Pokémon , I should have made thread about Non Binary options in games but to be it honest it will probably end up the same as this one and I wasn't planning on making thread about needs.

I thought I would be asking for something if I said that I wanted a third trainer that can wear anything and be called something preferred. Choices are always nice but I don't hold anything against Gamefreak etc.

I was just asking if the " what is your gender" thing was outdated and didn't mean anything else. They will still probably use he or she ingame but that is just slight inconvenice. The same with picking a trainer and using what is only allowed to them.

You have nothing to be sorry about. I am glad you made this thread it has been very....enlightening.

In both good and bad ways.

 

[Laiza]

Definitely enjoyed Rust's take on the matter, I don't see why you should be able to pick sex or race, having a randomly assigned color, race, gender or whatever generally fits Pokemon's theme anyways, the player character merely wants to explore and become the best at Pokemon whether white, black, male, female, trandgender, hindu, christian, muslim or not, the appearences or origins never actually mattered in the first place.

And I could definitely see that having a positive influence on children to see all sorts of people represented equally, gender isn't a choice and I don't see why it should be one in a game such as Pokemon either, considering you are essentially a blank slate when starting off.

No thanks. That's regressive as hell.

The way we're headed as a society, we're going to eventually reach the point where the body you're born with has absolutely no bearing on the body you can choose to inhabit down the line. Medical technology will advance to that level inevitably. Ultimately, this is a good thing, as it means a happier society overall, as we can actually address our own perceived physical shortcomings more readily, and no one is cursed to suffer because they failed the genetic lottery.

A lot of what makes transgender living so terrible is exactly because we can't choose the bodies we inhabit. That dysphoria is quite... unpleasant. I don't see why you would want to actively force that upon other people. The only way you could see that as a positive step is if you're completely ignorant as to what dysphoria entails.

Trust me, just be glad you weren't born with a transgender brain and that you'll never have to know that kind of suffering. While forcing cisgender people to endure a similar situation may be educational, ultimately I doubt the efficacy of such as an educational tool and would rather not force people into boxes they are not comfortable fitting into.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I don't really see the in depth character creation route working all that well without some fundamental changes to how the series handles the player characters. Right now it's less about designing an avatar and more in terms of "do you want to play as this person or that person". There's some minor variations, but the choice is fundamentally binary, with the one you don't choose almost always showing up later as an NPC. Each of the options presented has an established design which is used not only in the games, but also in some of the tie-in media.

If they wanted to go with a full character creator, it would require a move away from the strongly established designs they have now. One could argue about whether or not this would be beneficial to to the franchise but personally I'm not convinced. I feel like it would lose part of its identity if it went down that route.

 

[Tunavi]

No. No issue.

 

[Jon Carter]

Also the pronoun issue can be solved easily with "they" or by just writing around it if they don't want to implement a custom solution. How often is the player character referred to by pronouns anyways?

Pokemon games aren't only in English. Your solution doesn't work in my first language. It's either "he" or "she." "They" only refers to plural. When the English language uses "they" because there's doubt about the person's sex, the only way to translate that in my language is to say "he or she" or "he/she." It's the same with plenty of words. While words like "friend," "patient" or "passenger" can refer to both men and women in English and there's no way to tell, we have two variants - one for a male and one for a female. It can't be ambiguous.

 

[MannyToons]

PLEASE. That's all I want.

New Leaf has it right.

Indeed! And being able to have either "boy" or "girl" haircuts.

Spoiler

Man I hope Splatoon 2 does this...

 

[Laiza]

I don't really see the in depth character creation route working all that well without some fundamental changes to how the series handles the player characters. Right now it's less about designing an avatar and more in terms of "do you want to play as this person or that person". There's some minor variations, but the choice is fundamentally binary, with the one you don't choose almost always showing up later as an NPC. Each of the options presented has an established design which is used not only in the games, but also in some of the tie-in media.

If they wanted to go with a full character creator, it would require a move away from the strongly established designs they have now. One could argue about whether or not this would be beneficial to to the franchise but personally I'm not convinced. I feel like it would lose part of its identity if it went down that route.

Even games with strong character creation don't really have this issue. PSO2, for example, has a set cast of characters they use in advertisements and in their CG intros, regardless of the fact that the character creation is ridiculously in-depth. Granted, that's a game with a planned 10-year life span, but I don't see why it wouldn't work for Gamefreak.

 

[MartyStu]

I personally do not find it to be an issue, but I am not affected by it, so there is that. In general, I do not think we as a society have made enough improvements in this regard to begin to expect another culture to do so.

That said, it would be nice.

Still, it is WAYYYYY, less of an issue than the general bullshit lack of customization that plagues these games.

In 2016, Pokemon a pimped-out character create is the least a pokemon game should have.

 

[Stead Fast]

I'd love indulging a heavier character creator, including clothing being available to wear regardless of what sex you choose. In all honesty, it takes such little effort to implement it, with the only people being offended being far-sighted media, and tbh we're talking about a series that originally was linked with Satan, and worse... Evolution.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but from a purely economic point of view: if 2% of the population is non-binary, is it really worth the cost of developing features for them?

 

[Maddness]

I personally hoped they'd be clever about it in future games. Like just off the top of my head you could make it to where you start the game and are being issued a pokemon trainer license and the person setting up the license for you asks you your name and then they say "ok it's time for the picture!" and you then get to swap out hair, clothes, etc from your choice and the picture is taken.

Wouldn't really take you out of the theme of Pokemon at all imo.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I see we have a lot of new juniors. I highly recommend you familiarize yourself both with the ToS and the posting etiquette FAQ.

If you have questions or concerns regarding moderation, feel free to PM a moderator or send email to support@neogaf.com.

"I love you, Besada!"
"You're so cool!"

 

[Pokemaniac]

Even games with strong character creation don't really have this issue. PSO2, for example, has a set cast of characters they use in advertisements and in their CG intros, regardless of the fact that the character creation is ridiculously in-depth. Granted, that's a game with a planned 10-year life span, but I don't see why it wouldn't work for Gamefreak.

Pokémon does a bit more with their PCs than just using them as a default face for ads. Most of the time, regardless of which one you choose, both play a significant role in the story of the game.

 

[R00bot]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but from a purely economic point of view: if 2% of the population is non-binary, is it really worth the cost of developing features for them?

Ehhhhh.
The cost of adding an extra few options in how your character is referred to is pretty negligible when considering the amount that is already spent on developing games like this, and the good will, support, and word of mouth that including that 2% would have is definitely worth it.
Some of the more robust (and expensive) character customization stuff people are asking for makes sense to add anyway because Pokemon is pretty behind in character customization options when compared to similar games.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but from a purely economic point of view: if 2% of the population is non-binary, is it really worth the cost of developing features for them?

Data from the US suggests non-binary its more in the 0,3-0,4% range.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Gates-How-Many-People-LGBT-Apr-2011.pdf

http://practicalandrogyny.com/2014/12/16/how-many-people-in-the-uk-are-nonbinary/

Quite diminishing returns

 

[Kyzer]

Pokemon and many other games and movies and every other form of media still have a lot of gender stereotypes and they might as well tear down those walls, id say it's not as much developing features for non binary as much as just not placing those barriers in the first place. Pokemon specifically takes forever to catch on to what fans want tho so good luck lol

 

[Jon Carter]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but from a purely economic point of view: if 2% of the population is non-binary, is it really worth the cost of developing features for them?

Is it a percentage based on a study or just an example number? I have never met anyone who didn't identify as either a man or a woman. From those that I know, whether people see their gender as what genitals they have or how they feel inside, they always identify as one or the other. I doubt the percentage is that high.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Is it a percentage based on a study or just an example number? I have never met anyone who didn't identify as either a man or a woman. From those that I know, whether people see their gender as what genitals they have or how they feel inside, they always identify as one or the other. I doubt the percentage is that high.

I couldn't remember the exact percentage but I knew it was lower than 2%, so I posted the highest possible estimate to be safe.

Above poster says it's 0.3%-0.4% which sounds about right, not to mention having actual sources.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but from a purely economic point of view: if 2% of the population is non-binary, is it really worth the cost of developing features for them?

I guess developers shouldn't waste money with putting in colorblind modes either because it only affects a smaller part of the population.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I guess developers shouldn't waste money with putting in colorblind modes either because it only affects a smaller part of the population.

Uhhh, color blindess is much MUCH more common.

 

[Dayner_Kurdi]

So what next, "what is your name?" is going to be offensive too?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Uhhh, color blindess is much MUCH more common.

You sure? How many people do you think would identify as non-binary if there wasn't such blatant ignorance surrounding it? In this very thread there exists at least two posters who did not know there was even an additional option until they reached adulthood and now identify as neither male or female.

Regardless of that my point is still valid. Only 4% of the population is colorblind. Developing a setting specifically for that is not worth it on a 'purely economic point of view'.

So what next, "what is your name?" is going to be offensive too?

No. Got anymore bright questions?

 

[GamerJM]

So what next, "what is your name?" is going to be offensive too?

Why would this ever be offensive?

 

[MartyStu]

So what next, "what is your name?" is going to be offensive too?

Uhh, the OP never mentions taking offense.

Essentially just indicated that they wanted a feature that admittedly few people would benefit from.

If you want to put it through your prism and make it political, just know that it was never presented that way.

 

[Laiza]

You sure? How many people do you think would identify as non-binary if there wasn't such blatant ignorance surrounding it? In this very thread there exists at least two posters who did not know there was even an additional option until they reached adulthood and now identify as neither male or female.

This is a pretty big issue in my mind.

We can't say for certain how many people are in the middle part of the spectrum because a significant proportion of the population is completely ignorant of the fact that that option even exists. It's beaten into our collective heads from the day we are born that women are this way and men are this way and there are only really two genders and so on and so on, so how can you expect to get anywhere near an accurate census with so much ignorance in play?

 

[MartyStu]

You sure? How many people do you think would identify as non-binary if there wasn't such blatant ignorance surrounding it? In this very thread there exists at least two posters who did not know there was even an additional option until they reached adulthood and now identify as neither male or female.

Regardless of that my point is still valid. Only 4% of the population is colorblind. Developing a setting specifically for that is not worth it on a 'purely economic point of view'.

Correct. If I were making a game and concluded that it would require too much effort, not putting in colorblind mode would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Or left-handed mode. Or Inverted controls. Or etc...

 

[A Link to the Past]

So what next, "what is your name?" is going to be offensive too?

No, but thanks for reaffirming just how more offended people are by the existence of this thread. :v