Yeah, I would say that kids not seeing themselves represented in popular culture (be it in this context, or others like race, etc.) is hugely harmful.
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Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
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Yeah, I would say that kids not seeing themselves represented in popular culture (be it in this context, or others like race, etc.) is hugely harmful.
this shows your complete lack of understanding of what is actually being asked
you're out of your element
Did kids really have an issue with Psy types being OP in gen I?
Why is it that important that you have to remind everyone this is not important for you?
ShockingAlberto
Member
But plenty of Nintendo games have skin options, so you're wrong, and you're wrong in a way that makes me wonder if you answered that way to divert attention from the people mocking it.
This should be posted on every page.
Do you think most people who grew up and came to the terms of being outside the gender binary would not have appreciated the option growing up?
Is the idea of a kid growing up feeling different from everyone else, even if they don't understand what they're going through, having something to identify in their game of pokemon just to hard to grasp for you?
Do you think people just spontaneously turn trans when they hit adult hood?
Really?
For what it's worth, non-binary gender is still relatively new as a concept, and we have been making progress in getting understanding out there. Slowly... very, very slowly... but it's happening.
It sucks when we're at the bottom end of the curve and still have a long hill to climb, but we will climb it. We have to.
perfectchaos007
Member
I didn't know the difference between gender and sex until I was 21 years old. I think educating people on that first will help.
I'm not, I hate it when people mock it. I just have a hard time believing they work at Game Freak/Nintendo. Maybe that's just a belief I have to cope with the fact that I really like Pokemon and Nintendo games and I don't want to believe that the people making artistic decisions there share beliefs with people going on "anti-SJW," rants on message boards, so I apologize if it turns out that it is indeed the reason X/Y was that way.
I guess I should have said that Game Freak is insular, and they also often leave out features that fans clearly desire, though, not Nintendo. Then again Nintendo is insular as well, I guess just not enough to leave out skin color options? Actually they seem really inconsistent with this sort of thing, which I guess makes sense given how many teams develop games published by Nintendo.
whalleywhat
Member
We should really police who's even allowed to comment on these matters. New sciency-sounding terminology is being invented every day that people aren't even up on yet.
Most? Maybe not. but why be a dick to the kids that would have an issue with it?
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
That's a pretty darned good point.
Acerac
Banned
Maybe give a whole bunch of possible descriptors, let us be "Cool Trainers" or whatnot if we prefer. If we slip "they" in the options that won't harm anyone, right?
Oh, and why not let any trainer wear any clothing? That should fix that issue, right? It seems like it shouldn't be too difficult.
That's what I mean, switch the feminine nouns to the default (male); and the masculine connotation to be neutral--thus not teaching grammatical gender anymore.
Language reform is a touchy subject, but I feel that getting rid of rules that are hard to understand in favor of rules that make more sense and are easier to learn will help in the end. This is slightly off-topic, but sort of not cause it's maybe more of an ideal world??
Yeah, good luck with that.
We didn't get language reform to make spelling easier, this isn't gonna fly either.
that's dumb
maybe people could just try and unpack for themselves why this topic exists at all and what it's really about, and get out of this mindset that games are 'just games'.
To the people arguing that the question is about sex, let's look into the logic of this.
Let's assume that the question, are you a boy or girl, is about sex. Sex is not just XX and XY, but we can ignore that for now. So you've picked male or female and now you're locked into gender-specific clothing. Gender is not always the same as your sex at birth. By identifying yourself as a boy or girl in the beginning, even though you say its about sex, you are now locked into gendered clothing and features. See the discrepancy here? It is a question of gender. What pronouns you go by and what clothing you wear is not a matter of sex, it's one of gender.
You can conclude that if the question was really about sex, there would be no need to ask it, as it's totally irrelevant.
And besides, adding additional pronouns would be totally simple. I assume that pronouns are just a variable that's set when you pick your gender in the beginning of the game, and the variable is just inserted into the dialogue. Of which, I don't even think there are any uses of pronouns in the games. I certainly don't remember it. It's either you or your name. But if they do want to change the pronouns, it is a simple process. And kids won't put down the game and give up if pronouns like xe and such are possibilities to choose from. If the parents choose to not to buy Pokemon because of more inclusive pronouns, then fuck 'em.
Let's assume that the question, are you a boy or girl, is about sex. Sex is not just XX and XY, but we can ignore that for now. So you've picked male or female and now you're locked into gender-specific clothing. Gender is not always the same as your sex at birth. By identifying yourself as a boy or girl in the beginning, even though you say its about sex, you are now locked into gendered clothing and features. See the discrepancy here? It is a question of gender. What pronouns you go by and what clothing you wear is not a matter of sex, it's one of gender.
You can conclude that if the question was really about sex, there would be no need to ask it, as it's totally irrelevant.
And besides, adding additional pronouns would be totally simple. I assume that pronouns are just a variable that's set when you pick your gender in the beginning of the game, and the variable is just inserted into the dialogue. Of which, I don't even think there are any uses of pronouns in the games. I certainly don't remember it. It's either you or your name. But if they do want to change the pronouns, it is a simple process. And kids won't put down the game and give up if pronouns like xe and such are possibilities to choose from. If the parents choose to not to buy Pokemon because of more inclusive pronouns, then fuck 'em.
It's Pokémon..not a freaking drivers license application.
You can pick boy or girl, whichever gender you identify as. What would you rather them do..just design how you look without choosing a sex? The outcome is still the same, your designing something to look more male or female and naming it..I really don't see the difference.
You can pick boy or girl, whichever gender you identify as. What would you rather them do..just design how you look without choosing a sex? The outcome is still the same, your designing something to look more male or female and naming it..I really don't see the difference.
Messofanego
Banned
It's not just adults who go through complex gender issues, kids do too. As do they with their sexuality. Their race. Representation in media of their kind of people, and having stereotypes being used as bully material. A child game doesn't mean only straight white males are the only population worth catering to, because there are all kinds of children.
Acerac
Banned
If you don't see the difference why not just let those that do have it? Have a list of identifiers, he, she, they, your name with a subtitle for people who want to sound ridiculous, go the whole nine yards.
I think the key is to not take any options away, but to just allow for more variety. People like variety in character creation, right? I know I do.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Because like most people here you don't actually know what your about. Go and read up on this stuff and you'll hopefully get what the difference is.
Fair enough, I still think the reactions of a lot of people here are overly volatile and combative..
Like this..
SlaughterX
Banned
Ehh, I'm gonna excuse myself before I say something that will most likely get me banned again. Anyway I'm ok with it, so it sucks for you guys that think that it's such a big deal.
I find this topic fascinating. I never thought to question it myself. When I grew up I only knew boys and girls, so I guess the question feels natural enough from my viewpoint.
I don't think it's necessarily offensive to suggest via a two-choice option that most people identify with one of the two biological sexes anyways.
I don't think it's necessarily offensive to suggest via a two-choice option that most people identify with one of the two biological sexes anyways.
Kids do... broadening their minds early is important to stopping all the bigotry and transphobia.
Acerac
Banned
It can be a real touchy subject. You've gotta understand that by some people who are directly effected by it they can be rather defensive.
To be fair, the responses are volatile and combative on both sides. I mean look at the post after yours...
....it just comes across as cowardly. I can certainly understand frustration with posts like these, I share your feelings there.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I'm sorry, I don't have much patience for people act like know something but actually don't at all. Especially when the information is out there and in this very thread.
SlaughterX
Banned
Lol, cowardly because I've been banned before for mentioning my views on "gender idenity"? I think it's more cowardly to be banned because someone doesn't share the same opinion. AnywayI won't take the bait, carry on political pokemon warriors!
You could just, you know, not participate at all. Why even leave a message here if you've got nothing to add except a big passive aggressive "fuck you all"?
Stop posting here if you're afraid of getting banned for bigotry. Seriously, if you don't care about this topic then don't post or educate yourself.
It seems like they don't even ask the question anymore?? I am sorry if this thread caused a bunch of fighting.
I didn't think it would end up a huge debate.
I apologize if it seemed like I was singling out Pokémon , I should have made thread about Non Binary options in games but to be it honest it will probably end up the same as this one and I wasn't planning on making thread about needs.
I thought I would be asking for something if I said that I wanted a third trainer that can wear anything and be called something preferred. Choices are always nice but I don't hold anything against Gamefreak etc.
I was just asking if the " what is your gender" thing was outdated and didn't mean anything else. They will still probably use he or she ingame but that is just slight inconvenice. The same with picking a trainer and using what is only allowed to them.
I didn't think it would end up a huge debate.
I apologize if it seemed like I was singling out Pokémon , I should have made thread about Non Binary options in games but to be it honest it will probably end up the same as this one and I wasn't planning on making thread about needs.
I thought I would be asking for something if I said that I wanted a third trainer that can wear anything and be called something preferred. Choices are always nice but I don't hold anything against Gamefreak etc.
I was just asking if the " what is your gender" thing was outdated and didn't mean anything else. They will still probably use he or she ingame but that is just slight inconvenice. The same with picking a trainer and using what is only allowed to them.
SlaughterX
Banned
Ohh so you're saying I shouldn't post if it doesn't comply with yours?
Yo just let people know what your opinion is if you're so desperate to let people know you hold it.
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
I love GAF.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Games should just feature non-gendered clothing for customisation. If they don't then I think it's fair to say that they uphold outdated views on gender identity.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I think people are saying to post anything other than passive aggressive whining about how your to scared to say something.
Acerac
Banned
Feel free to post what you want, but it's nice to have some substance to it.
Coming in a thread and saying "I think you're all wrong but I won't say why" comes across as cowardly to me, yes. Being able to explain one's feelings is the difference between a justified opinion and one that isn't.
If you have a problem with why you were banned, contact a moderator. I've had bans overturned because they weren't justified, mods are willing to talk about their rulings. Even if I disagreed with some rulings (and I have) the fact that they were able to justify their opinion led to some legitimacy in my mind.
No, you're saying that, you were the one who is oh so afraid to be banned for posting what you think, but you...like, keep posting.
Oh golly, i wonder why.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I for one think you should post more. I'm having a laugh at your expense.
I've just come to realize people are getting banned on here for voicing their opinion. I'm new to Neogaf. What's the point of having a topic, that's raised as a question then banning the opposing side? Doesn't that just weaken the validity of the "true" side?
MrCookiepants
Member
You're choosing the character's sex, not their gender.
Why the fuck is this a 30 page thread. The world has gone mad.
Why the fuck is this a 30 page thread. The world has gone mad.
People are getting banned not for having an opinion on whenever or not pokemon should add a non binary option.
People are getting banned for saying transphobic things, because last time i checked GAF had rules against hate speech.
If you think pokemon should stick to just "boy and girl" you'll be fine.
If you express transphobic beliefs along with your opinion you'll likely get banned.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Ha. Oh boy, I know a place you'd fit in well if you think GAF bans people for simply voicing an opinion. It has very little to do with the opinion itself and entirely with how you voice it. If you're damaging to discussion or accommodating of disenfranchisement, well then, there's a good chance you're going to get put in timeout.
'Boy' and 'Girl' aren't sexes though.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm literally making an animated documentary and one of the people we interviewed is a person who while they were a kid knew they were LBGT but didn't know the terminology. So absolutely kids struggle with this concept.
If you're choosing sex why does it limit you to gendered clothing. Actually read the thread and you might understand why its so long.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
But we're not purely talking about progress here. The thing is that the overwhelming majority of people (including the vast majority of LGBT) do not have a gender identity that cannot be described as female or male and that will never, ever change.
We're talking about a static issue. It's even more blurred in that children (who this game is targeted to) don't necessarily even think about this prior to puberty with anything approaching complexity.
Literally 3 posts above yours I discuss how kids can comprehend issues of gender identity.
LordKasual
Banned
when it comes to social issues like this, where the problem may be really obvious to you, but may have never once occurred to someone who's never been exposed to it...is it bigotry, or is it ignorance?
To most people, identifying whether or not someone is a "Girl" or a "Boy" requires less processing time than identifying the color of their shirt. Putting a spin on this when you've never been really exposed to the concept on a personal level is bound to draw some reactions that seem inconsiderate or inflammatory.
I understand it can be hard to distinguish between who's doing out of ignorance / low exposure, or who's doing it out of malice. But the tenancy to just ban the person with the intolerant opinion while leaving someone who can get otherwise extremely inflammatory in expressing their offense with the statement is a moderation trend i notice here that's a bit troubling to me. I don't know whether it contributes to a good community, or just creates the illusion of one...but i've been seeing people get slapped with some serious flame for uneducated but seemingly innocent opinions since i've started posting here. Flame that's severe enough that i doubt it can be seen as educational.
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