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[Thelonelykoopa]

My voting doesn't correlate into who gets into power either. I'm not that important. You may be different.

I do far more damage outside the voting booth.

Yep luckily you are the only person in the US to not vote and their isnt a situation where enough people dont vote to change the outcome of a state going red or blue especially in contested states...

 

[komplanen]

Any reason why the thread title is emphasizing the ethnicities of the attackers and the victim? Clearly they are attacking the person for being a Trump supporter and it's terrible as the title states, but is the group being black and the victim being white actually important to this story/the topic being discussed based on what we can see from this video (ex: a hate crime, the victim being attacked because he was white, etc...)?

I wrote the thread title and I honestly don't know. Maybe it's subconscious racism or maybe it's because Trump (and Trump voters) were very nasty towards black people. That's the title that I came up with.

I didn't intend to spread a nasty message with it and it's of course up to mods whether the title matches the video or is not appropriate in some other way.

For the first two viewings I thought the victim was black. I am not very observant. It took me a while.

 

[benjipwns]

However what does is if more people like yourself who don't vote actually start. Before you know it, there's thousands if not millions of more votes getting done.

Then there's even less reason for me to vote, they'll already be doing it!

I can't control those people and I don't pretend that I'm influential enough to.

Yep luckily you are the only person in the US to not vote and their isnt a situation where enough people dont vote to change the outcome of a state going red or blue especially in contested states...

Those people are not my responsibility.

 

[FiggyCal]

You don't think it's fair, but again, the racist commentary was open and honest. Repeated again and again.

Is there no shared responsibility at all? And when potentially racist policies are enacted, is one still free of responsibility?

If you're republican and you think abortion is murder and taxes will wreck this country, then you would also share that responsibility when the other party wins. But I also don't think it is the case that voters should share in responsibility for everything the government they voted does. I don't expect Bush voters to personally apologize for the Iraq War, or Obama voters to feel like they had a hand in killing hundreds of civilians in drone strikes.

It's not to say that racism and xenophobia aren't factors. But that they weren't the only factors or that they're not even at times desired contingencies. The average Trump voter is not David Duke.

 

[alleyezonme]

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/09/p...en-white-voters/index.html?curator=MediaREDEF

Pretty depressing just how bad Clinton done with minorities, even in the face of everything Trump said.

I said earlier in a thread before the elections that african americans would vote for her obviously but she wouldnt do Obama numbers and people didnt believe me.

If most african americans didnt vote democratic by default should probably would be even lower

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Again: Is there no shared responsibility at all? And when potentially racist policies are enacted, is one still free of responsibility?

I'm saying I do not expect others to vote for my best interests. Just the way life is. Not gonna hate em for it. I don't vote for theirs. That's human nature. I'm not gonna feed someone else's kid until mines got a full belly.

92% of black peoples who voted voted for Clinton

Don't confuse a lack of viable alternative with support. In the end we always choose who is most likely to fuck us over the least. Doesn't whitewash the past.

So help a racist into power, give him the opportunity to potentially enact racist policies but throw your hands up and say you didn't have any part in allowing that to happen?

Personal accountability and taking responsibility for ones actions is no longer a thing?

My own mother almost voted Trump purely on abortion. (She's a 75 year old conservative Black Christian. Thankfully we talked her out of it lol) If she ended up doing so she's racist? I'm saying now is the time for osme introspection given the election and going back into the bubble of "Anyone that didn't vote Clinton supports racism" doesn't get us anywhere. The point should be to try to understand where they're coming from in order to craft a better democrat party that can speak to their issues. Minus the racism we all loathe from Trump.

 

[Audioboxer]

Then there's even less reason for me to vote, they'll already be doing it!

I can't control those people and I don't pretend that I'm influential enough to.


Those people are not my responsibility.

You do control your own vote though. You're arguing because other people may not vote as you want to vote you therefore aren't voting. That is flawed logic.

Nowhere on earth will voting ever be 100% vs 0%. To be human is to be diverse/different. What is entirely sad is how when we analyze the numbers from this election the 6m drop off from Democrats who voted last turn not doing so now may well have helped enable Trumps path to the White House.

Sobering reality and activism for 2020 most certainly starts with questioning people like yourself who don't vote, but claim to be "politically engaged".

 

[MHWilliams]

I don't expect Bush voters to personally apologize for the Iraq War, or Obama voters to feel like they had a hand in killing hundreds of civilians in drone strikes.

We absolutely share in that responsibility.

I'm aghast. Voters have no responsibility towards the actions of the government they install? I don't even understand how you square that.

It's not to say that racism and xenophobia aren't factors. But that they weren't the only factors or that they're not even at times desired contingencies. The average Trump voter is not David Duke.

Not the point. If Candidate A stumps on a policy that puts you in jail and gives me a $1,000, I can understand someone making that choice, but to say I don't also have the responsibility for you going in jail is false.

The issue is that many are willing to completely absolve anything but the tacit push of "String 'em all up". Which honestly is an ongoing issue in talks about racism.

I'm saying I do not expect others to vote for my best interests. Just the way life is. Not gonna hate em for it. I don't vote for theirs. That's human nature. I'm not gonna feed someone else's kid until mines got a full belly.

This however, is at least an honest assessment.

 

[benjipwns]

You do control your own vote though. You're arguing because other people may not vote as you want to vote you therefore aren't voting.

No, I'm not.

I'm not voting because I choose to withhold my vote on a near permanent basis due to lack of support.

If I were to vote, the outcome will not change. As there are none I wish to see in power and I can't change the outcome anyway, there is no reason for me to vote.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

You do control your own vote though. You're arguing because other people may not vote as you want to vote you therefore aren't voting. That is flawed logic.

Nowhere on earth will voting ever be 100% vs 0%. To be human is to be diverse/different. What is entirely sad is how when we analyze the numbers from this election the 6m drop off from Democrats who voted last turn not doing so now may well have helped enable Trumps path to the White House.

Sobering reality and activism for 2020 most certainly starts with questioning people like yourself who don't vote, but claim to be "politically engaged".

Not to mention the 3-4 million drop off from Obama 1st to 2nd term.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I don't condone but I can see why people would want to be violent over talking.

 

[GeordieMark]

Again: Is there no shared responsibility at all? And when potentially racist policies are enacted, is one still free of responsibility?

Its about priorities and people putting themselves before others, so they are basically looking out for number one. Its selfish, and you could say the are enabling racism, but I'm not convinced that makes them racist.

 

[Audioboxer]

No, I'm not.

I'm not voting because I choose to withhold my vote on a near permanent basis due to lack of support.

If I were to vote, the outcome will not change. As there are none I wish to see in power and I can't change the outcome anyway, there is no reason for me to vote.

By this logic no democrat should ever vote again and just allow the republicans to stay in power forever?

Very selfish way for you to say someone else will do the voting for me. This kind of complacency is precisely one reason why America is now in the shit hole it is.

I sincerely hope you reconsider your stance, you aren't making some great stand here.

Not to mention the 3-4 million drop off from Obama 1st to 2nd term.

True, but after Obama's historic first win I can kind of understand a slight drop off. People who have never voted in their whole adult life probably came out for Obama first time around. He still pulled good numbers 2nd time round all things considered.

 

[matrixman92]

I hope these people actually went out and voted....

 

[commedieu]

No, I'm not.

I'm not voting because I choose to withhold my vote on a near permanent basis due to lack of support.

If I were to vote, the outcome will not change. As there are none I wish to see in power and I can't change the outcome anyway, there is no reason for me to vote.

There are other issues to vote on besides president.

 

[Latimer]

I hope these people actually went out and voted....

I hope these people go to prison.

 

[benjipwns]

By this logic no democrat should ever vote again and just allow the republicans to stay in power forever?

Well, I would assume that Democrats support Democrats and want to see them in power.

There are other issues to vote on besides president.

Sure, and I wasn't just talking about President, but my impact there is also nil so it doesn't change the calculus.

 

[Captain Stew]

Actually you can. That's your right

May be your right, but if you couldn't get off your ass and vote then why are you complaining?

Sitting here hitting f5 on gaf didn't help your cause.

 

[matrixman92]

I hope these people go to prison.

yup

 

[FiggyCal]

We absolutely share in that responsibility.

I'm aghast. Voters have no responsibility towards the actions of the government they install? I don't even understand how you square that.



Not the point. If Candidate A stumps on a policy that puts you in jail and gives me a $1,000, I can understand someone making that choice, but to say I don't also have the responsibility for you going in jail is false.

The issue is that many are willing to completely absolve anything but the tacit push of "String 'em all up". Which honestly is an ongoing issue in talks about racism.



This however, is at least an honest assessment.

If I'm going to share responsibility for everything the government does, then I'd rather not vote at all ever. Would that not be the more responsible thing to do?

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

By this logic no democrat should ever vote again and just allow the republicans to stay in power forever?



True, but after Obama's historic first win I can kind of understand a slight drop off. People who have never voted in their whole adult life probably came out for Obama. He still pulled good numbers 2nd time round all things considered.

True its was still good number of voters but when added up its a scary trend compared to republicans more rock steady voter turnout. Especially since its not really undedecided voters as that would lead to an increase in republican voters if democrats was down which we see isnt the case.

 

[MHWilliams]

Its about priorities and people putting themselves before others, so they are basically looking out for number one. Its selfish, and you could say the are enabling racism, but I'm not convinced that makes them racist.

This is the core.

The only difference between two different types of posters is they believe that enabling racism makes you complicit in a racism system, thus you are racist. Racist by omission of caring or pure self-interest, but racist the same.

If I'm going to share responsibility for everything the government does, then I'd rather not vote at all ever. Would that not be the more responsible thing to do?

Your lack of vote still has consequences.

Are a people free of the actions of their government?

Your contention is: I want to make a choice, but I want none of the responsibility for that choice.

 

[benjipwns]

May be your right, but if you couldn't get off your ass and vote then why are you complaining?

Why would I want to vote for something I don't want when I'm getting it anyway?

 

[Silav101]

Again: Is there no shared responsibility at all? And when potentially racist policies are enacted, is one still free of responsibility?

Approaching it from an idealistic perspective, in order of your questions: Yes, this should be part of both law (directly or indirectly), and the social contract.

From a more down-to-earth perspective: None, and yes. People care for - and this changes dramatically depending on one's personal circumstances and prevailing culture / zeitgeist - in a general order:

• Their security and happiness
• Their family's security and happiness
• Their friends' security and happiness
• Everyone else's security and happiness

There are, of course, exceptions (and is probably the only way we actually have progressed as far as we have!), but generally - "I will only feel responsibility for those I care about, and if I have enough left in me, then maybe other people." It's how we are wired, and it can easily be taken advantage of.

 

[FiggyCal]

This is the core.

The only difference between two different types of posters is they believe that enabling racism makes you complicit in a racism system, thus you are racist. Racist by omission of caring or pure self-interest, but racist the same.



Your lack of vote still has consequences.

Are a people free of the actions of their government?

Your contention is: I want to make a choice, but I want none of the responsibility for that choice.

Im saying that there was more than one reason to vote for Trump and it made a ton of sense if you were republican for reasons other than Trump-specific issues.

It also happens to be hard for me to accept that I'm responsible for things that I wish Obama didn't do. But maybe it is the case and I have to live with that.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I dont care about these reckless youts and I care even less about some bigot pointing to this to justify their preexisting bigotry. I'm sure it'll be all over facebook

 

[benjipwns]

It also happens to be hard for me to accept that I'm responsible for things that I wish Obama didn't do. But maybe it is the case and I have to live with that.

You're not. I mean, unless you told him to do them.

You didn't did you?

 

[ZombAid82]

Supporting a racist is being racist. No matter how much you can pressure the fact that you're not racist.

If you voted Trump, you encouraged racism in America.

There is nothing left to say!
You just can't say it better!
If you are not a racist, don't vote one!

 

[Audioboxer]

Well, I would assume that Democrats support Democrats and want to see them in power.


Sure, and I wasn't just talking about President, but my impact there is also nil so it doesn't change the calculus.

If you don't support the Democrats are you third party? I mean I'm not even going to ask if you support the Republicans.

Because I would like to think people who support the Democrats would go out and vote Democrat. Not sit on their ass with woe is me, some other person is voting anyway. My vote will just be cancelled out.... sigggggh. It all matters, every vote, and some Americans need to get their ass in gear to realise that for 2020. Do you want Trump for 8 years?

 

[Permanently A]

People in this thread need a healthy dose of Occam's Razor. It is so sad to me that a video of a defenseless man being assaulted by a group spurs baseless accusations of why it was actually his fault. And of course the same goes when the story is flipped to a white cop assaulting or killing a black man. Don't stoop to their level of defense.

 

[MHWilliams]

Im saying that there was more than one reason to vote for Trump and it made a ton of sense if you were republican for reasons other than Trump-specific issues.

It also happens to be hard for me to accept that I'm responsible for things that I wish Obama didn't do. But maybe it is the case and I have to live with that.

I agree with your first point. I've never disagreed with that.

I'm helping you understand where those other posters are coming from.

Approaching it from an idealistic perspective, in order of your questions: Yes, this should be part of both law (directly or indirectly), and the social contract.

From a more down-to-earth perspective: None, and yes. People care for - and this changes dramatically depending on one's personal circumstances and prevailing culture / zeitgeist - in a general order:

• Their security and happiness
• Their family's security and happiness
• Their friends' security and happiness
• Everyone else's security and happiness

There are, of course, exceptions (and is probably the only way we actually have progressed as far as we have!), but generally - "I will only feel responsibility for those I care about, and I have enough left in me, then maybe other people." It's how we are wired, and it can easily be taken advantage of.

Ethically, we are all responsible for the government we have, the laws that government enacts, and the civil cost of those laws. I agree people are wired a certain way, but that does not diminish the responsibility we hold towards our fellow civilians.

"That's the way people think." Sure, rock out. I won't disagree.

"People aren't responsible for who they vote for and what that person does." Ethically untenable. You absolutely are, because our collective actions create the shape of our government. You don't just share the freedoms and rights that a government provides, you share the responsibilities.

 

[finowns]

If you don't support the Democrats are you third party? I mean I'm not even going to ask if you support the Republicans.

Because I would like to think people who support the Democrats would go out and vote Democrat. Not sit on their ass with woe is me, some other person is voting anyway. My vote will just be cancelled out.... sigggggh. It all matters, every vote, and some Americans need to get their ass in gear to realise that for 2020. Do you want Trump for 8 years?

Why are you wasting your time with this guy? His melodrama is nonsense.

 

[benjipwns]

If you don't support the Democrats are you third party? I mean I'm not even going to ask if you support the Republicans.

Because I would like to think people who support the Democrats would go out and vote Democrat. Not sit on their ass with woe is me, some other person is voting anyway. My vote will just be cancelled out.... sigggggh. It all matters, every vote, and some Americans need to get their ass in gear to realise that for 2020.

I'm not "woe is me" because I don't have any delusions about electoral politics. Which is why I don't participate in them outside of the odd goofy interest.

I explained my thinking already. I support no candidates for office, I can't change the outcome. So I don't vote.

Other people do support candidates, they can't change the outcome, but they want to secretly signal their support. So they do vote.

Neither statement says anything about the persons political engagement. Politics is more than elections.

Why are you wasting your time with this guy? His melodrama is nonsense.

It's melodrama to discuss things realistically and without ritualistic or totemist fervor?

 

[FiggyCal]

You're not. I mean, unless you told him to do them.

You didn't did you?

I don't think so. I'll reserve judgment though because I don't want to be wrong.

EDit: I sincerely do want to learn more about politics and where people are coming from. But some things are hard for me to accept as true and valid.

Although my parents are Trump supporters and maybe I should've started out with that.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If you're republican and you're concern is low taxes because you think that's good for the economy; or you're concern is combating abortion because you think its murder; or you think Hillary Clinton is a warhawk and criminal and that's why you voted for Trump. I don't think its fair to call you racist. I've heard a lot of religious individuals who i deeply respect and I don't have reason to think they're white supremacists support Trump because the supreme court is important to them.

Man what is racism if it isn't a reflection of what you are and are not willing to tolerate? What is responibility? What is love? What is respect if when the time comes to truly show you have it, you're concern is taxes?

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm not "woe is me" because I don't have any delusions about electoral politics. Which is why I don't participate in them outside of the odd goofy interest.

I explained my thinking already. I support no candidates for office, I can't change the outcome. So I don't vote.

Other people do support candidates, they can't change the outcome, but they want to secretly signal their support. So they do vote.

Neither statement says anything about the persons political engagement. Politics is more than elections.


It's melodrama to discuss things realistically and without ritualistic or totemist fervor?

Ever? So you don't support Government in it's current format? If not, what is your ideal setup for how a country should be governed?

I'm not trying to rile you up, you're only drip feeding me with reasons for your stance so I'm assuming parts till I get more from you.

 

[MHWilliams]

Why are you wasting your time with this guy? His melodrama is nonsense.

I disagree with Benji on many things, but his posts are reasonable. I'm not seeing the melodrama.

 

[glow]

Kedzie? This is Chicago. Looks like this guy got caught in the wrong place at a really bad time. Sad behavior but not shocking, these type of 5-on-1 crimes have been happening a lot recently 😐

 

[Airola]

It's not victim blaming to consider an alternative scenario to why they attacked him when there's literally no context other than 'Trump'.

Dude, he got beat and then he tried to flee. They dragged him back. Then they stole his car.

Even if in some universe it's right to give a beating for racial slurs, is it ok to beat and if one is trying to leave after getting beat then drag him back and beat him more? And then take his car?

I would somehow understand the logic if someone would just go and punch the racist in the face. But to do it over and over again, and kick him while he's on ground, then dragging an escaping man back and beat him some more, and then take his car... That's some messed up shit right there. That's not about losing temper anymore. That's just evil.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

If you're republican and you're concern is low taxes because you think that's good for the economy; or you're concern is combating abortion because you think its murder; or you think Hillary Clinton is a warhawk and criminal and that's why you voted for Trump. I don't think its fair to call you racist. I've heard a lot of religious individuals who i deeply respect and I don't have reason to think they're white supremacists support Trump because the supreme court is important to them.

Voting for Trump is putting those issue on top of the well being of a sizeable part of the US population. You can't just focus on some issues/political view and ignored the rest.

To me it just mean that you put a small gain for yourself above a massive lose for a lot.

Racist may not be fair to you but I think we can at least agree that it's pretty selfish.

 

[benjipwns]

Ever? So you don't support Government in it's current format? If not, what is your ideal setup for how a country should be governed?

I'm not trying to rile you up, you're only drip feeding me with reasons for your stance so I'm assuming parts till I get more from you.

I'm not riled up, this is fine. I don't want to go beyond the questions asked and make assumptions about what looking for.

No, not ever. Well, probably not ever. Hypothetically I could suppose a situation under very certain circumstances.

But no, I don't support the corporate form know as the state. I am essentially an extreme pacifist. Though I understand others wish for the use of self-defense and try to accommodate it to an extent.

My ideal is voluntary governance. This probably precludes "countries" as we understand them, and something closer to a federated city-state at largest. But I'm not an utopian so I'm open to various ideas. Including the idea that most people do want the nation-state or larger and its related extensive...action.

 

[Ensirius]

Why are we giving attention to this small group of individuals ?
Do we really want to have a society where you get beat up for who you voted last election?

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

I'm not riled up, this is fine. I don't want to go beyond the questions asked and make assumptions about what looking for.

No, not ever. Well, probably not ever. Hypothetically I could suppose a situation under very certain circumstances.

But no, I don't support the corporate form know as the state. I am essentially an extreme pacifist. Though I understand others wish for the use of self-defense and try to accommodate it to an extent.

My ideal is voluntary governance. This probably precludes "countries" as we understand them, and something closer to a federated city-state at largest. But I'm not an utopian so I'm open to various ideas. Including the idea that most people do want the nation-state or larger and its related extensive...action.

If you dont mind I was wondering what political activism do you do like what organization or activities and stuff like that since you say your more political active than one who votes but didnt specify as to what organization or group work you are apart of .

 

[ZeroMaverick]

https://streamable.com/6nwo

This is not the way to fight back :-(

I feel like it might not be hyperbole to think or say that we very may well be close to the brink of civil war. When I see shit like this that's all I think. I'm not trying to defend an action that is clearly horrible. All violence is horrible, but when you spend over 50 years peacefully protesting, and then something like Trump happens, how are you supposed to cope? MLK taught us to be peaceful, to keep our heads up and be the better person, but Trump and half of the country voting for him feels like a huge step backward in any sort of social progression.

 

[benjipwns]

If you dont mind I was wondering what political activism do you do like what organization or activities and stuff like that since you say your more political active than one who votes but didnt specify as to what organization or group work you are apart of .

Well, one thing I do is I slowly ruin the political science and history departments of as many colleges as I can. And any place I can get published.

And then I undermine third parties by telling them it's impossible to get elected.

Also, I overprocessed FOIA requests for a while until they reorganized the compliance offices to make it harder to FOIA things.

And the last time I voted in a general election I jammed the ballot machine with my write-in because none of the poll workers understood what "FULL" meant thwarting democracy for about fifteen minutes.

I abuse the Libertarian Party whenever I can too.

Oh, and I mockingly created the Trump 2016 thread on NeoGAF.com which clearly sparked his bid for the Presidency.

 

[UncleSporky]

Why are we giving attention to this small group of individuals ?
Do we really want to have a society where you get beat up for who you voted last election?

But, right or wrong, people are heavily criticized or banned for implying that this might also be a relatively small group of individuals.

I say shine a light on awful behavior that crosses the line on either side.

 

[Mass Effect]

I feel like it might not be hyperbole to think or say that we very may well be close to the brink of civil war. When I see shit like this that's all I think. I'm not trying to defend an action that is clearly horrible. All violence is horrible, but when you spend over 50 years peacefully protesting, and then something like Trump happens, how are you supposed to cope? MLK taught us to be peaceful, to keep our heads up and be the better person, but Trump and half of the country voting for him feels like a huge step backward in any sort of social progression.

We are not close to civil war, but expect more incidents like this in the future.

 

[Silav101]

I agree with your first point. I've never disagreed with that.

I'm helping you understand where those other posters are coming from.



Ethically, we are all responsible for the government we have, the laws that government enacts, and the civil cost of those laws. I agree people are wired a certain way, but that does not diminish the responsibility we hold towards our fellow civilians.

"That's the way people think." Sure, rock out. I won't disagree.

Hence my nuancing of an ideal world. You are correct that we all share in the responsibilities of our implicit and explicit social contracts - families, tribes, communities, all the way up to the United Nations.

"People aren't responsible for who they vote for and what that person does." Ethically untenable. You absolutely are, because our collective actions create the shape of our government. You don't just share the freedoms and rights that a government provides, you share the responsibilities.

I definitely agree. But - and here's the big but - you cannot expect everyone to see that, or feel that way - reality has shown that a lot of people don't.

So, how do we reach out to these people? How do we show that their choices have far-reaching consequences for others? Or at the worst, mitigate their influence? Demonizing them or ignoring them is less than useless, because in a democracy, their voice and their vote is just as strong as yours is.

 

[TheJLC]

Kedzie? This is Chicago. Looks like this guy got caught in the wrong place at a really bad time. Sad behavior but not shocking, these type of 5-on-1 crimes have been happening a lot recently 😐

Kedzie and Roosevelt. Hope they get the ass holes and are charged with a Hate Crime. Poor man had no chance against these idiots who attacked and robbed this man cause he's white.

 

[BennyBlanco]

President Trump will probably be a distant memory by the time these fuckin dopes get out of prison. Pulling some old guy out of his car, beating his head in, and carjacking him all while taping it and throwing it on social media yourself. Maybe one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.