Support NeoGAF

[Fulminator]

Exposing skin to the elements doesn't help in the context of what a character is doing. Especially when we consider what might be causing heat in the first place in a post sci-fi apocalypse. You're right that all of her outfits seem to focus on crop tops and that she focuses on mobility first and foremost over a character who's a tank, but in a hot setting, just the undershirt being removed while wearing more clothing on your skirt doesn't really work as an equation. My critique is of yet another inexplicably exposed midriff in a character design but seeing people trip over themselves to justify it is really something else.

i'm not necessarily saying exposing skin will help, just that it doesn't make a difference in terms of practicality over what she's already wearing, which is one of the original arguments you made.

in the image of her with the midriff exposed, we can't see all the way down to her feet. perhaps much of the clothing on her legs are removed as well, and the skirt is just intact?

i don't really care if the midriff is there or not, the ins and outs of the character don't really mean anything to me, but you're dismissing any possible reason as to why the midriff could be exposed. I don't really think you want to hear any arguments on the matter, which is perfectly fine, but if you really want to know why she doesn't have anything covering her, you're either going to have to wait for the game or ask a character designer at the studio.

i don't think you're wrong for criticizing, but i do think that the reasons for things are often times a lot simpler than we think they are.

Please provide a quote saying that is why they chose a female lead. Also according to you they have already fucked it up by showing her flat tummy.

Crossing Eden is right in this regard. Without a push from the consumer base for more female characters in gaming, why would anyone even bother to do it? Now I don't think that Guerilla Games would specifically come out and say "yeah, we have a female lead because people asked for it", because that's probably not exactly what they were thinking when they chose Aloy to be the MC, but it definitely is a result in general of people asking for more diversity in player characters.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Your post was saying that people outside of the west don't put thought into their character designs.

Relative to how they ground things in the setting more often than not compared to Japan. Not that they don't put thought into it but there is a huge problem of sexism there even more so than here when it comes to the design of female characters and that only becomes more apparent as time moves forward since a lot of their studios haven't budged in that regard even for their biggest games, last year we got Quiet, this year we got Cidney, two prominent examples, there's also the issue of alts being completely unreasonable and more like dressing up a doll than an outfit that a character would genuinely wear, nothing about Moara Burton's character makes this ok:

or Sherry:

or Lightning:

or Kat:

or the women in Persona:

it is absolutely not racist in anyway shape or form to see that overtime this is something that is much more common in Japanese games, as let's be honest it says a lot that the biggest critique of a design for Aloy is that some of her outfits expose her midriff when it likely wouldn't make sense to expose skin to the elements of a post sci-fi world filled with giant dinosaurs, likely even less so in a rainforest.

Your perspective, via that post, was that if somebody doesn't make a design to western sensibilities or standards, then it's coming from a lack of intelligence.

Not with western design philosophies since grounding things is inherently more common. Hell the bigger defense for some of this shit is "but it's video games." Think about the context of that statement from a character design perspective. If anything, that puts a lack of faith in a designer to come up with a design that makes sense.

The way you worded it painted a broad stroke that western designs = good, intelligent because of their design philosophies. Non-western (and, judging by the conversation, you meant east Asian or Japanese) designs are mindless because of their design philosophies.

I'd recommend reading the above.

Even ignoring how erroneous the generalization is, you laid a blanket statement that western = mindful, non-western = mindless. Like even if that wasn't the intent, it's clear how that post rubbed people the wrong way. At the very least, it neglects the intersectionality aspect of this discussion and comes off as xenophobic.

I see how people misinterpreted the statement.

Anyways, I'm happy to see this trend continuing, though I do hope we continue to see more non-sexualized designs ala Aloy. Sexy character designs are fun, but there's such a disproportionate amount when it comes to feminine characters. Like, not to say that there aren't sexed-up or aesthetic-focused masculine character designs out there, but there's much more of a balance. I don't really feel comfortable criticizing Japanese developers for this though - different cultures, shouldn't expect them to make stuff to fit our social standards/needs. Just saying that as far as my preferences are concerned, I'd like to see more of a balance.

It's not just different cultures, that's really not a valid excuse as that says that anything inherent to one culture is a-ok JUST because it's inherent to one culture, the social stigmas and treatment of women in Japan is absolutely not ok.

i'm not necessarily saying exposing skin will help, just that it doesn't make a difference in terms of practicality over what she's already wearing, which is one of the original arguments you made.

It does but ok.

in the image of her with the midriff exposed, we can't see all the way down to her feet. perhaps much of the clothing on her legs are removed as well, and the skirt is just intact?

Dude there's a demo of it.

i don't really care if the midriff is there or not, the ins and outs of the character don't really mean anything to me, but you're dismissing any possible reason as to why the midriff could be exposed. I don't really think you want to hear any arguments on the matter, which is perfectly fine, but if you really want to know why she doesn't have anything covering her, you're either going to have to wait for the game or ask a character designer at the studio.

Because the reasons people have provided ITT really don't add up, if it's hotter out first of all she's wearing more armor everywhere EXCEPT for her stomach and she's already wearing an undershirt, it's just seemingly pulled up for some odd reason. Just genuinely not seeing reasons there.

i don't think you're wrong for criticizing, but i do think that the reasons for things are often times a lot simpler than we think they are.

Maybe the modelers like showing off their ability to sculpt abs.

Crossing Eden is right in this regard. Without a push from the consumer base for more female characters in gaming, why would anyone even bother to do it? Now I don't think that Guerilla Games would specifically come out and say "yeah, we have a female lead because people asked for it", because that's probably not exactly what they were thinking when they chose Aloy to be the MC, but it definitely is a result in general of people asking for more diversity in player characters.

Do not entertain his "find this exact quote" fallacy.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I used to argue along the lines of "why dosen't this try to be more realistic" or "that's stupid, lasers, swords, shields, physics don't work like that?!"

Raiden's High Frequency blade shouldn't cut all the way through that Ray's arm. Nor should he have the leverage to do what he does when he throws it. How does Dante not fall off of Tartarus as he runs down it after Vergil fight 1? Marsches dumb pizza cutter sword is so impractically balanced, hell every great sword larger then a standard claymore is ridiculous. Lazers don't work like that Star Wars, Fallout, and every game that fires hard cylinders of light instead of emitting an actual laser beam. I could go on forever.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is and will always be unrealistic and inconsistent because the fantastical is inherently unrealistic. It says it on the tin. It's more important to stay consistent with atmosphere, tone, theme, and narrative when creating fantasy art work. Because that's what actually matters. If it's going for realism in the first place then of course it would be an important factor, but none of the games we're talking about strive for realism.

If you don't like sexually appealing female protagonists that's fine. There's no need to hide it. Like I posted earlier, we do still have imperfect representation of different types of characters. Is there a need to curb the majority of appealing designs so that the minority of them can thrive? I don't think so, I think we can make our way forward and continue to get diverse main characters without shaming and purging sex appeal.

 

[Platy]

Please provide a quote saying that is why they chose a female lead. Also according to you they have already fucked it up by showing her flat tummy.

While not exactly what you want, the first bolded part would never happened if not the complains for more women protagonists.

http://www.gamepur.com/news/23412-g...horizon-zero-dawn-has-female-protagonist.html

"When we started with a concept we felt like we had a pretty fresh mix of ingredients; the BBC nature documentary kind of feel, and then the sci-fi elements with the robots," he explained. "We also felt like we need a fresh main character. We've been making Killzone games; we've done male protagonists for quite a while. Now, we wanted to do something else.

What we have been focusing on is not if it's male or female, but it's more to figure out her personality," he explained. "Make her personality really interesting. And also the way she looks; make that feel like she's really a tribal hunter. That fits in this world and surroundings.

She's very curious and determined, and she wants to explore the world and figure out these mysteries," he added. "And hopefully we can give the player the same feeling; you want to know what's out there, you want to discover these new Machines, you want to meet the new tribes. That's how we've mostly designed her character."

The second and third quote is what makes the default costume awesome and the discussed one bad

 

[Akainu]

How can you pile on assless chaps yoshida?
We need more japanese like him and methxxx they know what truly matters in life.

 

[sonicmj1]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

I think that in this case, you're looking at things backwards.

The West is perfectly fine with this sort of design depending on the context. It's less common in Western AAA games because they often have more realistic settings. But if a game has more heightened aesthetics, the designers are more likely to focus on style above function. You can see this in MOBA-like games or fighting games especially, as well as comic-booky titles like the Arkham games or Borderlands.

"Using your brain" means understanding both the character and how that character fits into the larger aesthetic of the game. How a designer answers those questions also has to do with audience expectations, which have shifted a great deal in the West over the last decade. Bloodrayne isn't exactly that far in the past, to pick one example.

Japanese designers aren't stupid; they're making different sorts of games for a different sort of market.

 

[DemWalls]

I honestly think it's not really worth it to think too much about that outfit. If this game had no customization and that was Aloy's default appearance then it would make more sense to discuss it, but given that it's an RPG with supposedly dozens of different outfits, I simply think: they cannot all be winners. Some artist at Guerrilla designed it, maybe to do something a little unusual (with respect to the game's other options, possibly), some people will like it, some won't.

 

[Humdinger]

Maybe if this was a one-off thing, but Crossing Eden seems to be pretty notorious for this, attacking people constantly over their Japanese design preferences and never acknowledging that what he said might be distasteful. I've seen him outright call posters sexist for things that aren't sexist or threaten to PM a mod when someone disagreed with him.

Fair enough, I'm not defending that particular poster. I'm just commenting on how hateful and extreme people can be sometimes, in their attempt to squelch what they see as a statement that is insensitive to some cultural subgroup or another. We do tend to over-react to these things, imo. Heck, much of this thread is just an over-reaction to one thing or another.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Crossing, enough people have provided you a reason why her tummy being out makes sense in the context of the game, the intent behind the outfit is just you assuming the designer thought "hey, that's sexy, it will sell".

It's honestly mind boggling how much you are willing to go with that topic, if you compare to the other two, it's still pretty harmless. I am a man, but I think women will like that design, too. Same goes for the other games. And no, this is not a "it's just a video game"-argument.

At least there are no vaginas exposed

 

[Platy]

I think that in this case, you're looking at things backwards.

The West is perfectly fine with this sort of design depending on the context. It's less common in Western AAA games because they often have more realistic settings. But if a game has more heightened aesthetics, the designers are more likely to focus on style above function. You can see this in MOBA-like games or fighting games especially, as well as comic-booky titles like the Arkham games or Borderlands.

That design of Sonya is pretty shit EVEN considering MK

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think that in this case, you're looking at things backwards.

The West is perfectly fine with this sort of design depending on the context. It's less common in Western AAA games because they often have more realistic settings. But if a game has more heightened aesthetics, the designers are more likely to focus on style above function. You can see this in MOBA-like games or fighting games especially, as well as comic-booky titles like the Arkham games or Borderlands.

Yes, and I critique them as they come out. I don't just critique Japanese character design. It's any and all examples of it. And like I said, that's getting much better from western devs in that regard, as i'm 100% sure that Aloy won't have any skimpy cat outfits or braless schoolgirl outfits. The biggest critique I can say is "why does this outfit expose her midriff when everything else is covered in more armor than her default outfit?" And no it's not just because the west is focused on realism. Stylized games too have a lot of reasonable designs for women. MOBA, fighting games, and comics being a bit of an exception.

"Using your brain" means understanding both the character and how that character fits into the larger aesthetic of the game. How a designer answers those questions also has to do with audience expectations, which have shifted a great deal in the West over the last decade. Bloodrayne isn't exactly that far in the past, to pick one example.

I know what it means. It's something I flat out tell other artists when they go for such designs. And yes ever since the start of last gen the west completely shifted to much more grounded character design and at the start of this gen that meant more than "white dude with mean and/or cocky face and stubble."

Japanese designers aren't stupid; they're making different sorts of games for a different sort of market.

I didn't call them stupid, more like a very irate way of saying to be more brave and creative.

Crossing, enough people have provided you a reason why her tummy being out makes sense in the context of the game, the intent behind the outfit is just you assuming the designer thought "hey, that's sexy, it will sell".

Sure if you completely ignore my responses to them. The reasons were "it's hot out"
my response that went unanswered:

Exposing skin to the elements doesn't help in the context of what a character is doing. Especially when we consider what might be causing heat in the first place in a post sci-fi apocalypse. You're right that all of her outfits seem to focus on crop tops and that she focuses on mobility first and foremost over a character who's a tank, but in a hot setting, just the undershirt being removed while wearing more clothing on your skirt doesn't really work as an equation.

if it's hotter out first of all she's wearing more armor everywhere EXCEPT for her stomach and she's already wearing an undershirt, it's just seemingly pulled up for some odd reason.

"Why does this outfit expose her midriff when everything else is covered in more armor than her default outfit?"

Multiple people have said literally the exact same thing, (many comparing the agency of real life women to those designed in a video game), yet no one has answered the above. Because the excuse: "it's more hot out" doesn't add up.

 

[Mega]

I used to argue along the lines of "why dosen't this try to be more realistic" or "that's stupid, lasers, swords, shields, physics don't work like that?!"

Raiden's High Frequency blade shouldn't cut all the way through that Ray's arm. Nor should he have the leverage to do what he does when he throws it. How does Dante not fall off of Tartarus as he runs down it after Vergil fight 1? Marsches dumb pizza cutter sword is so impractically balanced, hell every great sword larger then a standard claymore is ridiculous. Lazers don't work like that Star Wars, Fallout, and every game that fires hard cylinders of light instead of emitting an actual laser beam. I could go on forever.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is and will always be unrealistic and inconsistent because the fantastical is inherently unrealistic. It says it on the tin. It's more important to stay consistent with atmosphere, tone, theme, and narrative when creating fantasy art work. Because that's what actually matters. If it's going for realism in the first place then of course it would be an important factor, but none of the games we're talking about strive for realism.

If you don't like sexually appealing female protagonists that's fine. There's no need to hide it. Like I posted earlier, we do still have imperfect representation of different types of characters. Is there a need to curb the majority of appealing designs so that the minority of them can thrive? I don't think so, I think we can make our way forward and continue to get diverse main characters without shaming and purging sex appeal.

Good post. This is my stance on the matter as well.

 

[sonicmj1]

That design of Sonya is pretty shit EVEN considering MK

You're not necessarily wrong. I think Caitlyn's design is also pretty shit.

The main points I wanted to get across were:

- Western designers will forego realism or focus on character motivation when it suits the setting and tone of the game

- These choices are often commercially successful, and some are also well-regarded by fans

- To the extent Western developers have made more realistic choices in character design, they have been motivated by consumer response

I've got nothing against criticism of shit design, or pushing for different settings or tones. I just think it's worth keeping in mind why Japanese design is less grounded generally.

 

[Kaisos]

or the women in Persona:

Futaba, her pose aside, is wearing something perfectly reasonable for the role she plays on the team. It doesn't look like bodypaint and isn't revealing anything, either.

Meanwhile Anne is -exactly- the sort of person who would wear an outfit like that. I don't think this is a particularly good example.

 

[Mabufu]

More sexually appealing = more money.

Also, male protagonists are also sexualized.

 

[sonicmj1]

More sexually appealing = more money.

Also, male protagonists are also sexualized.

That's why Dead or Alive is Japan's most successful fighting game franchise.

Wait, what?

 

[Kaisos]

That's why Dead or Alive is Japan's most successful fighting game franchise.

Wait, what?

It's less about Money so much as it is about drawing attention to the product, in the case of something like Automata.

Seeing a lot of fanart of 2B already. This stuff helps drive sales.

 

[Humdinger]

My avatar has side-midriff exposed. Is this acceptable, or should I be ashamed? It is only side midriff, not full midriff. And there is probably a good reason for it, such as an increased ability to twist.

 

[Platy]

You're not necessarily wrong. I think Caitlyn's design is also pretty shit.

The main points I wanted to get across were:

- Western designers will forego realism or focus on character motivation when it suits the setting and tone of the game

- These choices are often commercially successful, and some are also well-regarded by fans

- To the extent Western developers have made more realistic choices in character design, they have been motivated by consumer response

I've got nothing against criticism of shit design, or pushing for different settings or tones. I just think it's worth keeping in mind why Japanese design is less grounded generally.

Japanese devs in general do less grounded and more objectified design than western counterparts because the country has a much bigger tradition of misoginy, has one of the worst levels of gender equality in the developed world and the type of consumer who buy more merchandise is the creepy otaku that loves daikamura.

edit :

More sexually appealing = more money.

Also, male protagonists are also sexualized.

Keijo, Bayonetta and Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball disagrees with you

And 99,99% of the male protagonists are not objectified, they are power fantasies

 

[Crossing Eden]

You're not necessarily wrong. I think Caitlyn's design is also pretty shit.

The main points I wanted to get across were:

- Western designers will forego realism or focus on character motivation when it suits the setting and tone of the game

- These choices are often commercially successful, and some are also well-regarded by fans

- To the extent Western developers have made more realistic choices in character design, they have been motivated by consumer response

I've got nothing against criticism of shit design, or pushing for different settings or tones. I just think it's worth keeping in mind why Japanese design is less grounded generally.

Japanese devs in general do less grounded and more objectified design than western counterparts because the country has a much bigger tradition of misoginy, has one of the worst levels of gender equality in the developed world and the type of consumer who buy more merchandise is the creepy otaku that loves daikamura.

Beat me too it.

More sexually appealing = more money.

Also, male protagonists are also sexualized.

Sex doesn't sell. And read the following on the painstaking lengths devs go through to actually desexualize their male characters. Also refer to this post.

 

[Kaisos]

the country has a much bigger tradition of misoginy

Not really, no. What are you even comparing it to? The country that just elected a vice president who wants to throw people in jail for getting abortions?

It's true that Japan is not super great towards women! But you guys really like to pretend it's Afghanistan or something.

 

[AstroNut325]

Maybe it's just me, but I welcome the designs that shows skin.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I want a female power fantasy and a game where men are oversexualized.

 

[sonicmj1]

Japanese devs in general do less grounded and more objectified design than western counterparts because the country has a much bigger tradition of misoginy, has one of the worst levels of gender equality in the developed world and the type of consumer who buy more merchandise is the creepy otaku that loves daikamura.

That's basically my point. The designers are working in a market where otaku have an outsized influence. They're not stupid, they're responding to different incentives than developers in the West get.

Sex doesn't sell.

I know. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Like, League of Legends having tons of sexualized female characters didn't stop it from finding explosive success, but they also haven't lost anything by making more of the new women they added less objectified. Blizzard can make sexy Widowmaker and Symmetra because there are lots of characters in the game with different types of personalities.

I don't think 2B's design is necessarily the most effective possible design for a Western market, but I guess the publisher's okay with that. They tried an interesting experiment with the first Nier in creating a gruff, older protagonist for the West, and while I appreciated it, I don't think it paid off commercially.

 

[Platy]

Not really, no. What are you even comparing it to? The country that just elected a vice president who wants to throw people in jail for getting abortions?

It's true that Japan is not super great towards women! But you guys really like to pretend it's Afghanistan or something.

Not afghanistan, Tajikistan and Indonesia.

Abortions ARE illegal in japan, unless it includes health risks or it was resulted from rape.
You need to get a doctor prescription for oral contraceptives every 3 months since they were only legalized in 1999 (more than 50 years after the usa) and Emergency contraceptive pills were aproved only in 2011.

The focus on the article is the Gender Gap ... the difference in salaries between man and woman in the same jobs.

 

[Taruranto]

Japanese devs in general do less grounded and more objectified design than western counterparts because the country has a much bigger tradition of misoginy, has one of the worst levels of gender equality in the developed world and the type of consumer who buy more merchandise is the creepy otaku that loves daikamura.

You know they also make dakimakura of male characters right, lol.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

You know they also make dakimakura of male characters right, lol.

Are dakimakura body pillows?

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's basically my point. The designers are working in a market where otaku have an outsized influence. They're not stupid, they're responding to different incentives than developers in the West get.


I know. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Like, League of Legends having tons of sexualized female characters didn't stop it from finding explosive success, but they also haven't lost anything by making more of the new women they added less objectified. Blizzard can make sexy Widowmaker and Symmetra because there are lots of characters in the game with different types of personalities.

At this point when things are successful it's likely in spite of the sexualization of the game's characters not because of it. LoL and Overwatch are incredibly fun, if they weren't, they likely wouldn't have had any sort of long term success. Take for example, Battleborn, which has similar designs.

I don't think 2B's design is necessarily the most effective possible design for a Western market, but I guess the publisher's okay with that. They tried an interesting experiment with the first Nier in creating a gruff, older protagonist for the West, and while I appreciated it, I don't think it paid off commercially.

It's honestly pretty offputting, last time they had a cyborg ninja they made him look like a cyborg ninja, now we're an android samurai or whatever and she look like that. The director's history with female protagonists certainly don't help and ofc there are likely gonna be some incredibly offputting alts..

 

[neohwa]

Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball disagrees with you

You think people buying the game at all not because of being sexually appealing?

Sex is what sold this game.

 

[Taruranto]

Are dakimakura body pillows?

Yes.

Moshi moshi Garrus desu.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

None of what I said was racist but ok.

Racist statements from you in this thread:

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

...in which you assert that other countries full of people unlike you, comprised mainly of races other than your own, are mentally inferior to yourself and those like you in the territories you reside in. Not only is this racist against others and racist in favor of yourself, it is xenophobic and nationalist.

I'm not white but nice try.

...in which you assert that race predicates the propensity and capability for certain behavior against others and in favor of yourself. Inherent culpability for members of another race, inherent infallibility for yourself on the basis of race.

None of what I said was racist but ok.

...in which you become further entrenched in your esteemed racism by insisting that your racist statements are not racist, after having already copped to being racist by trying to exempt yourself from accountability for it on the basis of race. This is an increasingly petulant denial of reality.

Everyone agrees, everyone knows. Those who enable you to be racist simply condone your racism and believe it to be justified due to their own racist beliefs. Everyone else just knows that it's racist and do not condone racism.

 

[neohwa]

That's why Dead or Alive is Japan's most successful fighting game franchise.

In terms of growth, yes it is.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Racist statements from you in this thread:



...in which you assert that other countries full of people unlike you, comprised mainly of races other than your own, are mentally inferior to yourself and those like you in the territories you reside in. Not only is this racist against others and racist in favor of yourself, it is xenophobic and nationalist.

You should probably read the last page of replies.

In terms of growth, yes it is.

Aren't esports fighting games still ruled completely by SF?

 

[MetaCircular]

People passing off subjective aesthetic preferences as objective moral arguments.

There is nothing wrong with costumes being 'cool for the sake of it.' I usually play games for the gameplay, so characters are merely a means to an end, abstract puppets with no agency by definition. Literally the only thing I ask of them is that they look cool and aethetically pleasing to me (lol at 'immersion', double lol at 'relatability').

This is especially true for replays and the like where I've already experienced the 'story,' and am just focusing on high scores or similar achievements.

 

[Kaisos]

What's wrong with just making something that looks cool, anyway? God knows I play Japanese games precisely because Western games have increasingly trended towards irritating ultra-realism.

At this point when things are successful it's likely in spite of the sexualization of the game's characters not because of it.

There is a ridiculous amount of Overwatch porn, precisely because those characters have appealing, attractive designs.

 

[Platy]

You think people buying the game at all not because of being sexually appealing?

Sex is what sold this game.

Sex Sells implies stuff receives a ridiculous sales because it contains sex (cough objetification cough). If that was right, Keijo, Bayonetta and DoAXBV would be beyond million sellers.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

You should probably read the last page of replies

...in which you believe providing relative justifications for your racist beliefs and statements makes it either good or not racist.

 

[neohwa]

Sex Sells implies stuff receives a ridiculous sales because it contains sex (cough objetification cough). If that was right, Keijo, Bayonetta and DoAXBV would be beyond million sellers.

Even Final Fantasy can't sell a million in Japan these days.

If the game sold 10 more copies because of sex, then that means sex sells. It doesn't need to be a million.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'd classify DLC as that, which a lot of these costumes are.

But you can play the game 110 times without ever seeing that outfit, which was Morrigan ' argument.

DLCs are marketed. Hidden, ultra-secret Easter eggs that people in the 90's wouldn't find until some hardcore folks from the internet pointed them out years later, are not equivalent.

And slightly OT from this conversation, but I noticed you criticizing Nier's character design earlier in the thread. Can't speak for Automata obviously, but have you played the first one?

Nope

Kaine has an actually VERY good reason for her design, and not in the "be ashamed of your words and deeds" bullshit way that Kojima tried to pull because he couldn't come up with good justification for Quiet.

lol. I don't believe you. Sorry.

There's plenty. Persona 3's female protagonist immediately comes to mind. Other than that, I'd have to look through my backloggery, but Otome games in general don't sexualize their (female) protagonists (not always though).

"There's plenty. Look at ultra-niche otome games!" e_e

Agreed. The weird puritanical, no-fun-allowed mentality of folks who are supposed to be left leaning, progressive and open-minded is baffling. It's like peeps don't see they're acting like the religious conservatives in the town of Footloose! I said in another thread I want more outlandishness like Conan and Red Sonja in my games, not watered down, buttoned up blandness across the board in the name of whatever.

lol, it's always fucking hilarious (and pathetic) whenever this is framed as a puritanical argument.

No matter how many times we can tell you people we love sex, have a fulfilling sexuality, aren't ashamed of our bodies, dress skimpy in the summer or for dating, etc. You never fucking listen.

Because this isn't about that at all.

I wouldn't mind if Aloy had a sex scene where she's 100% naked in the game. But I would be very annoyed if she had a bikini armour (note, I know that she won't).

Care to guess why that is? Or is your fallacious mindset and refusal to listen so entrenched that you can't even grasp why that would be?

You know what's not sensible? Talking about a god damn video game's OPTIONAL outfit that exposes a midriff like its the end of the world

You know what's not sensible? Taking the mildest, most milquetoast form of criticism and depicting it as "the end of the world".

Hell, I would even call that intellectually dishonest.

Also, male protagonists are also sexualized.

lol? no

It's less about Money so much as it is about drawing attention to the product, in the case of something like Automata.

Seeing a lot of fanart of 2B already. This stuff helps drive sales.

You don't actually know that. Hey maybe some potential buyers are turned off by the design and won't buy it.

 

[LotusHD]

People passing off subjective aesthetic preferences as objective moral arguments.

There is nothing wrong with costumes being 'cool for the sake of it.' I play games for the gameplay, so characters are merely a means to an end, puppets with no agency by definition. Literally the only thing I ask of them is that they look cool and aethetically pleasing to me (lol at 'immersion', double lol at 'relatability').

You're right in that yes, sometimes people take their ideal of what a character (in this context, a female video game character) should generally look like too far, and make it seem that anything that doesn't match it is automatically incorrect or sexist. After all, we have a guy here that thinks an optional outfit that shows midriff is somehow this evil thing.

But that doesn't mean there's no merit in discussing whether or not the "cool for the sake of it" outfit has elements of it that could be considered problematic. Like I love 2B's design, but I can still acknowledge that her being in heels looks a tad impractical, even if it does look cool.

If you don't want to think deeper and critically about it or whatever, and only need it to be aesthetically pleasing, you do you. Sometimes I too don't like to give every single outfit I see major thought. But others do, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[AlucardGV]

Sex Sells implies stuff receives a ridiculous sales because it contains sex (cough objetification cough). If that was right, Keijo, Bayonetta and DoAXBV would be beyond million sellers.

no, that's "sex sells millions"
sex sells is fine, if you want to be pedantic about that you can change it into "sex help sales". like, those games are famous for that.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

You should probably read the last page of replies

Does that cover when you defended yourself by saying you're not white when you were accused of racism? I'm not seeing it.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's not sex that sells. There isn't even any sex in those games.

It's the objectification of women's bodies that are argued to "sell". Big difference.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What's wrong with just making something that looks cool, anyway? God knows I play Japanese games precisely because Western games have increasingly trended towards irritating ultra-realism.

You know they really haven't, games are still just as ridiculous as they used to be, Joel, Nathan Drake, and Lara Croft destroy literal ARMIES of adversaries in their games and survive a lot of ridiculous shit. Assassin's Creed is still about a secret organization of assassins that have been running throughout history who literally have parkour skills due to their genetics. Western devs have just focused on making things more believable due to the increased fidelity that current hardware allows. So things like animation and costume design feel much more believable in context. This is why characters like Quiet stick out like a sore thumb.

There is a ridiculous amount of Overwatch porn, precisely because those characters have appealing, attractive designs.

Creepy nerds being creepy nerds has nothing to do with game sales. Iirc the creator of Bioshock Infinite had to tell creepy nerds to stop making porn of Elizabeth, a character he went out of his way to desexualize over the game's development via reducing her breast size by more than half, changing the photoshop file textures of her skin to remove cleavage detail completely, and making sure that during cutscenes her boobs weren't in the focus and having the devs give her a more complex rig so the player would focus on her expressions.

still misinterpreting the intent and meaning behind your statement.

No where me and another individual had a discussion about the intent and meaning behind my statement.

 

[Yasumi]

Sex Sells implies stuff receives a ridiculous sales because it contains sex (cough objetification cough). If that was right, Keijo, Bayonetta and DoAXBV would be beyond million sellers.

Have you seen how Yuri on Ice is doing? Sex sells when it's integrated effectively, picking poor examples doesn't negate that.

 

[ponpo]

But that doesn't mean there's no merit in discussing whether or not the "cool for the sake of it" outfit has elements of it that could be considered problematic. Like I love 2B's design, but I can still acknowledge that her being in heels looks a tad impractical, even if it does look cool.

If you love a character design because of how it looks, then mission successful for that character. Practically should have literally zero effect on character design in a game like this.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's not sex that sells. There isn't even any sex in those games.

It's the objectification of women's bodies that are argued to "sell". Big difference.

This too, just like the misinterpretation of sexuality as sexualization, nothing these characters are doing ever has ANYTHING to even remotely do with sex.

 

[Kaisos]

You don't actually know that. Hey maybe some potential buyers are turned off by the design and won't buy it.

That's absolutely their reasoning behind those aspects of 2B's design, though. Well, that and Yoshida seemingly having a thigh fetish.

 

[YianGaruga]

This too, just like the misinterpretation of sexuality as sexualization, nothing these characters are doing ever has ANYTHING to even remotely do with sex.

You know that "sex" doesn't only mean intercourse right? Are you sure having a discussion about semantics helps your argument?

 

[Movalpolos]

Crossing Eden exposed as a racist. Well this thread went places.