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[fvng]

Larry Bundy's YouTube channel is the best

 

[RoyalFool]

It's worth noting the Argonaut guy invited Miyamoto to his wedding long after this supposed 'feud' took place, I think it's just case of business being business.

Body Harvest was delayed because it kept failing approval, can't blame Nintendo for not releasing a 6fps game (Waverace PAL version came close mind you).

Back when I was at Rare we would argue with Nintendo over many things, but I can't recall a single time Miyamoto 'sabotaged' any of the projects we had on. Allowing us to work with his IPs was quite the blessing, plus his criticisms were quite helpful at times (if completely insane at others). He wasn't involved at all in most of the titles we produced.

Would still buy him a pint.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

Maybe a mod could edit the OP and fit all these counter-points to it? Because there is a bunch of people who only read the title and wrote some uninformed stuff...

One should always read at least a few pages before writing their opinion, to get all the facts.

EDIT. I mean, we have people from the aforementioned company countering the claims in the OP. Isn't that worth something?

 

[TheMagician]

Miyamoto doesn't run Nintendo.

Some of these could be listed under 'times Nintendo were an arsehole'.

The Croc/Mario 64 thing is delusion. Croc is absolutely awful compared to Super Mario 64. The level design and more importantly the controls are worlds apart. Nintendo would obvious developed a 3D Mario platformer for the N64 no matter what.

That StarFox one is harsh though, but like I said, clearly a business decision from Nintendo.

 

[capitalCORN]

How dare you! Only a sweet, sweet child would do this for grown ass men!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXrsK8ICp8E

 

[jay]

The Star Fox story is the only one that is both true and a dick move.

Yeah, this seems like the case. The others are vague, half true, exaggerations, or just dumb. Rare actively sold themselves to MS because of Dinosaur Planet? Nintendo needed to steal the idea for a 3d cart racing game and a 3d platformer?

Ironically, he defends Nintendo where he shoudn't - there's some mention of them caring about 3rd parties at some point in the past when they in fact never cared about third parties, as per Yamauchi's original vision for their game business.

 

[User123456]

Every good boss I have ever had and met was a hard ass. Younger millennials are too sensitive to understand this.

I'm pretty young and I concur. I've worked with both kinds of bosses and I'm of the opinion that a good boss needs to have the flexibility to listen to everyone's input, but also the inflexibility to make his own choice after considering (and not necessarily using) everyone's feedback, and be a hardass on that ultimate decision.

I work on software too so it's a pretty comparable situation.

 

[nynt9]

Maybe a mod could edit the OP and fit all these counter-points to it? Because there is a bunch of people who only read the title and wrote some uninformed stuff...

One should always read at least a few pages before writing their opinion, to get all the facts.

EDIT. I mean, we have people from the aforementioned company countering the claims in the OP. Isn't that worth something?

I'd put some of it in but it's too scattered so I don't know where to start and how to consolidate it all.

 

[ElFly]

how does the code stealing from starfox 2 to starfox 64 work?

afaik the machines architecture is fairly different, the 3D chips even more so and the whole code is in assembler anyway so it is not like it could be recompiled on the n64 without gutting it

haven't seen the video tbh. maybe there's AI for the enemies there that could be reused? dunno

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Pathetic attempt at trying to slander the goat, terrible.

 

[Godzilla's Left Toe]

I'm curious about the "stealing code" stuff. Nintendo funded development for Starfox (not to mention helped co-develop it as well), so wouldn't the code, even if it was entirely created by Argonaut belong to Nintendo?

Also didn't know that DMA was originally on the "Dream Team", which is pretty hilarious looking back at some of the devs involved like Left ...Field Studios LOL.


edit: But the biggest item on the list that I REALLY think should be taken with a mountain of salt is that Argonaut gave Nintendo the idea to make a 3D platformer. Nintendo goes through the effort of making a 3D capable console and not a single person internally ever floated the idea of bringing their most successful series to the third dimension? Really? Really?

It's really just funny

 

[Pikma]

He killed F-ZERO, ruined Star Fox and Paper Mario and who knows what other great ideas and or projects he has blocked just because he can.

so yeah, I respect him for the good things he has done but I'm not a fan of his.

 

[ElFly]

I'm curious about the "stealing code" stuff. Nintendo funded development for Starfox (not to mention helped co-develop it as well), so wouldn't the code, even if it was entirely created by Argonaut belong to Nintendo?

this always depends on the specific contract signed, but Nintendo has been outsourcing the actual development of -some- of their games for so long I doubt they would overlook this. prolly had a boilerplate contract and stuff

 

[HellofaMouse]

Always had the impression that miyamotos's ego was a little too big even for a guy like miyamoto.

Just look at half of his quotes.

 

[RRockman]

I really hate when people post "fact check" videos and dont actually... y'know... check their own facts! There are people out there who dont visit this fourm and would actually take this stuff at face value. Yes, they are most likely not very smart if they listen to youtube videos/social media for facts, but I still hate seeing misinformation spread just for clicks.

 

[meppi]

stopped watching as soon as this guy claims rare sold themselves to Microsoft after star fox adventures to get away from miyamoto.

I actually watched the whole thing just to see where it would go.
Was a subscriber to his channel for nearly a year now as well.
But this video just doesn't go anywhere.
Seems to be made for shock value and clickbait to be honest.
Tons of conjecture and misinformation mixed in with a couple of facts to make it all seem plausible.
Glad to see a couple of developers pitch in and debunk most of it before it becomes internet gospel like many other wild stories that went around for a decade or longer before people found out it was all bunk.

 

[GCX]

Always had the impression that miyamotos's ego was a little too big even for a guy like miyamoto.

Just look at half of his quotes.

There are a million Miyamoto quotes out there of which about a dozen are controversial of which about half are taken out of context (like the recent "I could've made Minecraft" one).

 

[faridmon]

Its funny to read some of the comments here in this thread by people coming out of woodwork and just attack Miyamoto because this thread presents the perfect opportunity to do that.

Having said that, The degree people look up to Miyamoto is very overblown. I don't have doubts that he and a lot of people at Nintendo have been total dicks to people over the years. and the fact that a lot of ideas that is usually associated to be from the minds of Miyamoto have been other peoples work.

No one can be this success for 30+ years and be 100% honest at the same time. Its a damn shame really.

Always had the impression that miyamotos's ego was a little too big even for a guy like miyamoto.

Just look at half of his quotes.

Yeah, thats my impression as well. while a lot of them were taken under the wrong context, he doesn't seem to be a personality that can handle the limelight thrown on him by fans and critics and no doubt will utter complete rubbish from time to time.

Alot, if not everyone, at gaming devs don't make a good PR personality and Miyamoto is one of them.

 

[TVC 15]

Regarding the StarFox code myth and Argonaut, I think there is a lot of muddy info on the net and misattribution of prior work towards different people within Nintendo and Argonaut. No doubt there is some similar reworked code across most of Nintendos early 3D efforts, they were just getting used to it, and Dylan has admitted multiple times in interviews he assisted Nintendos efforts in their first forays into 3D since he had more experience with StarGlider at Argonaut, I mean it is why they asked him to do StarFox FFS!? I think its a little naive of him if he thought that Nintendo weren't going to take lessons they had learned through StarFox and re-use and iterate on them, the writing was on the wall, 3D was the next big thing and everybody was researching it.

Nintendo didn't have Sega's in-house arcade teams who had worked on 3D projects or at least 2D projections into 3D space with games like Galaxy Force or Outrun, so I assume Dylan helped lay the groundwork for their future 3D work, and once a lot of practices where more familiar Nintendo ran with it. Thats also brazenly assuming Nintendo were all bloody stupid and hadn't done their own programming research into 3D.

As far as I'm aware StarFox and Mario 64 do share some code, but thats mainly in the camera system, but this was designed by Takumi Kawagoe who did a lot of programming on StarFox 2 who was a Nintendo employee.

It just sounds like Dylan is a bit grumpy or foggy about it all, and presumes perhaps he was incredibly important to Nintendos 3D plans and his information and research is often forgotten, which I can get, but I think Nintendo definitely proved with Mario 64 that they figured out a lot of the problems of moving a 3D object i.e Mario through a large 3D space, and the fact Mario 64 was so accomplished with such freedom of movement and control at release was incredible if compared to other early efforts at moving in 3D space like Jumping Flash. So no I don't think Dylan was the man who helped Nintendo completely reinvent the wheel, but he was definitely the 'seed of imagination' to so pretentiously speak which I respect.

 

[Scrawnton]

Nice guys finish last.

 

[Spiritwalker]

This has always been my impression of the guy.

 

[Slightly Live]

There's enough information posted by gaffers in this thread to make believing anything in that video a really tough challenge.

 

[deadhorse32]

 

[Ridley327]

He killed F-ZERO, ruined Star Fox and Paper Mario and who knows what other great ideas and or projects he has blocked just because he can.

so yeah, I respect him for the good things he has done but I'm not a fan of his.

Miyamoto didn't kill F-Zero. The horrible sales for the games after F-Zero X did.

For all the praise GX gets nowadays, no one bought the damn thing when it came out.

 

[jett]

You know, when you make such outlandish claims, you really should put up sources.

 

[watershed]

That list is a little silly. Many of those "asshole moments" have been debunked and others are just a matter of how we describe things. Sometimes games don't work out or game development is troubled.

 

[Herne]

He doesn't state that he liked it either.

I believe this is due to internal pressure inside Nintendo on Miyamoto himself. After DKC's release, he was making some Yoshi platforming game for the SNES (Yoshi's Island, maybe?) and it didn't get approved initially because it had cutesy graphics and they wanted more realistic stuff to copy DKC's success. Instead of going realistic as they wanted, he went the opposite direction and made it even cuter, giving it a hand-drawn cartoon ethic. I remember reading about it in interviews with him years ago. There's bound to be some irritation when you're known as the industry pioneer and genius that Miyamoto is and you can't get your game approved because it doesn't look like this other successful game.

For the Mario 64 story, other than 3D tests I'd say that story is bollocks. The N64 was developed from the ground up to be the 3D machine, and it's release was delayed again and again so that Miyamoto could get SM64 just right (given the low number of launch titles I'm sure that also played a role) - I remember this reason being given out a lot by Nintendo and Miyamoto himself at the time.

Probably the people he is the biggest asshole to are his own development teams - coming in late into a game's development and "upsetting the tea table", or whatever it's called. Getting told that months and possibly a year or more of work is not good enough. David Sheff pointed out in his book that employees often got burned out and were given grants of leave to relax and come back fresh. Imagine seeing Miyamoto coming around and the real fear of having your work thrown out and being told to start again.

 

[Porcile]

Not bullshit and full of hearsay at all. Nope.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

I'd put some of it in but it's too scattered so I don't know where to start and how to consolidate it all.

Collected a bunch of quotes about what I think sums pretty well what's wrong in the video! Take or leave, your decision

Croc came out about 15 months after Mario 64 so the notion that Miyamoto stole the idea and made the game so far ahead of Croc's release leads me to take this with a huge grain of salt (more like a huge mound).

The DKC thing is known though, but it led to Yoshi's Island, which was the far better game.

How does one steal something they own? The problem is them not being properly attributed, which I highly doubt a designer is in charge of.



Yeah, this is kind of weird. I guess Nintendo has the world's fastest development team.

Wasn't Retro a well-known disaster zone before Nintendo cleaned shop? It's been talked about in great detail already about how much of a mess they were and how close to the brink of complete destruction before NCL came in to personally handle their affairs.

The whole "...mediocre gameplay..." line has been debunked for fucking years. Fucking fact check Larry!



http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/06/17/e3-2010-shigeru-miyamoto-likes-donkey-kong-country-after-all

I recall that Miyamoto also give Retro the task of doing Metroid Prime and supervise the game. I would think he would be prove of himself for that honestly.

A previous GAF thread on this subject: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=613206

Within the thread, PokéKong points out an interesting exchange between John Ricciardi and Dylan Cuthbert:

I can't offer any detail without getting someone into trouble, and feel free to disregard me, but I personally would not trust Dylan Cuthbert at all as a source for this information. Maybe Miyamoto is secretly a douche, I don't know, but I'd only recommend thinking so with someone credible giving that info.

It's an unscrupulous piece. For example, Star Fox 2 had EAD programmers on it and the copyrights are fully Nintendo's. Argonaut only had a co copyright on the FX technology not the individual game program for any of the games they assisted programming.

See also:






Also noteworthy in this context, some folks who likely know Miyamoto pretty well:


And ICYMI, an interview in which Miyamoto, Takashi Tezuka, Yoshiaki Koizumi, Hajime Yajima, Yasunari Nishida, and Yoshinori Tanimoto discuss the early development stages of Mario 64: http://shmuplations.com/mario64/

Retro was an absolute mess that has barely anything to show for their work on 5 (!) games before Nintendo took over.

They needed their coffee tables upended.

Nintendo owned all StarFox 2 code, so in no way could they steal it.

This whole video is basically Fantastic Receipts and Where to Find Them -- a bunch of hearsay meant to hook in people with confirmation bias; except for number 2, that one is flat out false since you can't "steal" code you already own.

The people that felt disgruntled over the criticism went to form their own company that have yet to release any notable game while Retro released critically acclaimed Donkey Kong games... So yeah

...People take Larry Bundy Jr seriously...? I always though he was a B-tier youtuber...



see



And yet he proceeded to work on the 3DS remake of 64 with his company...? Something isn''t adding up

Also, I just read "Power-Up" by Chris Kohler, which features an interview with Cuthbert... he's really a lot of smiles and rainbows when talking about Nintendo and Miyamoto (and he didn't need to be). And that's freaking 2004, a long time before he started to work with them again.



That's not a rumor? The developers said in plain letters "Miyamoto asked us to use only Mario characters if possible and to make the story simpler. We thought it over and it made sense so we did it". Eventually they didn't like having a barebones story seeing how they beefed it up for Color Splash, but them only using estabilished Mario characters instead of their own is probably out of respect for Miyamoto.

"Miyamoto: The first point that I want to make is that I actually worked very closely with Rare on the original Donkey Kong Country. And apparently recently some rumor got out that I didn't really like that game? I just want to clarify that that's not the case, because I was very involved in that. And even emailing almost daily with Tim Stamper right up until the end."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/06...-donkey-kong-country-after-all?page=3

I really, REALLY love Larry Bundy Jr, but the whole "DKC infamous quote" is very problematic.

I find it weird that another guy from Argonaut, Giles Goddard, had no problems to continue working with Nintendo after a bunch of his co-workers got their work stolen. Even going as far as making 1080º Snowboarding, porting Doshin the Giant to the Gamecube and then coming back and making Steel Diver.

I... dunno. There are people like that, but this whole exchange and accusations sound hella fishy

1. Miyamoto was pissed at Nintendo management for warmly suggesting to change Yoshi's Island art style to pre-rendered graphics similar to DKC.
Miyamoto wasn't pissed at Rare.

2. Nintendo cancelled Start Fox 2 for business opportunity that is to make enough room between the original Star Fox and the N64 sequel (business decision which paid off since SF64 is the best selling game in the series).
A bunch of other polygonal games slated for SNES in 1995/1996 were cancelled to not give to the general public the impression that "Nintendo 3D" was sloppy, in fact Sega Saturn and Sony PlayStation were available from 1995 in most western markets.

3. There is no evidence that suggest Nintendo stole the concept from Croc (who have played both games know what I mean) for its masterpiece Super Mario 64.
It's like saying Nintendo stole the concept from other sort of platform games which used polygonal graphics like Alpha Waves or Jumping Flash that came out before SM64 when in reality SM64 was an order of magnitude more advanced than any console game available in the conole market in 1996.

4. DMA worked on a bunch of project for N64.
Some released:
Silicon Valley: what a masterpiece
Body Harvest: important from an historic point of view but not well executed.

Some cancelled:
Zenith: a game where you need to climb a tower.

Some rumored:
Unreal: port of Epic FPS for 64DD
Metroid 64: yep the external developer that had the task to bring Samus Aran on N64 is rumored to be DMA Design.

The relationship between Nintendo and DMA Design wasn't any different from any other similar relationship between a publisher and a developer.

That was back when Yamauchi was still the president, and he retired and passed away. He was a very strict, stubborn guy and was part in ruining the relationship they had with some companies, even some like Square. Square only finally came back to Nintendo when Iwata became president.

It's worth noting the Argonaut guy invited Miyamoto to his wedding long after this supposed 'feud' took place, I think it's just case of business being business.

Body Harvest was delayed because it kept failing approval, can't blame Nintendo for not releasing a 6fps game (Waverace PAL version came close mind you).

Back when I was at Rare we would argue with Nintendo over many things, but I can't recall a single time Miyamoto 'sabotaged' any of the projects we had on. Allowing us to work with his IPs was quite the blessing, plus his criticisms were quite helpful at times (if completely insane at others). He wasn't involved at all in most of the titles we produced.

Would still buy him a pint.

EDIT. One more quote from the fabulous Shikamaru Ninja:

Argonaut didn't make Star Fox 2. Nintendo contracted Argonaut to develop the FX technology. Nintendo additionally contracted 5 programmers from Argonaut to work inside Nintendo and help develop games using the technology. Those programmers were paid as contractors directly by Nintendo.

The entire Star Fox 2 development team (Nintendo EAD and the additional 3 contract game programmers) were paid for their work. Argonaut specifically didn't see any technology royalties because the FX chip wasn't manufactured since the game wasn't officially released.

Argonaut doesn't own any game code because Dylan Cuthbert, Kristen Wombell, Giles Goddard and Colin Reed were all contract employees working for Nintendo. Goddard and Reed even stayed working full time for Nintendo for several years after, while Cuthbert and Wombell found new ventures.

Argonaut only has ties to developing the FX technology chip that powered the technology. All the FX technology games that's Argonaut tried to develop on their own and pitch to Nintendo were rejected.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

Donkey Kong Country is still a badass game. Actually, all three of them are. Haters gonna hate.

Shout out to my British brethren at Rare. Buy British!

 

[protomouse]

I find it hard to believe that Nintendo didn't own the assets that Miyamoto supposedly stole. Furthermore, intangibles like mere concepts are not copyrightable. I'm not sure why the author expects Nintendo, unless contractually obligated, to have paid royalties in this case.

Miyamoto has occasionally come across as self-important even for a man of his pedigree, though I admit it's not ideal to try and get a sense of the guy through written interviews translated from Japanese.

 

[Dremark]

There are a million Miyamoto quotes out there of which about a dozen are controversial of which about half are taken out of context (like the recent "I could've made Minecraft" one).

I like Larry's videos, I haven't been able to watch this one yet but it sounds like he botched it.

In all seriousness the guy has enough "I could have made Halo but I didn't want to" sort of quotes you could make him look bad without having to piece together really questionable conclusions.

 

[zelas]

Pretty interesting how Nintendo's jealous relationship with Rare keeps coming up from multiple people.

 

[petran79]

Alpha Waves doesn't look like a good game though (and not because it was developed by a non-japanese developer).

France at that time were one of the video game pioneers as well.
It is just that the game was released on computers, so you'd see experimental stuff more likely and less quality testing.

 

[Comet]

I haven't thought about the game Croc in over a decade. I loved that game, hard as balls towards the end though.

 

[Spades]

I really want to play Croc now - only ever played the demo from a PSX demo disc as a kid.

 

[mikezilla2]

the star fox stuff is well documented out there and i have heard the body harvest storys but not summed up in that way

the rest i dont recall

 

[Oblivion]

Alright, here we go https://youtu.be/xL83Ko0vYrw?t=13m55s

Here's an old G4 Icons episode where one of the writers for Electronic Games Magazine claims to have had Miyamoto and Rare co-founder Tim Stamper in the same room. He claims he interviewed them both at the same time and that's when Shiggy told his business partner right to his face, that his game was mediocre.

Also, the issue where the alleged interview was published is from May 1995, not March, which makes Larry's video even more dubious if he can't even get simple facts like that right. All that's available online is a scanned cover of the issue unfortunately. I've tried looking everywhere for an entire scan without success, so whether Miyamoto actually said this is still up in the air until someone finds the magazine and confirms it once and for all. It's still shitty and irresponsible of Larry to pass it off as fact while ignoring Miyamoto's acknowledgement of the rumor when he spoke with IGN.

That clip is actually quite interesting. Either that guy who did the interview (which he describes in pretty vivid detail, with Tim Stamper being present and all) was lying, or Miyamoto was in that 2010 IGN interview.

 

[Weltall Zero]

So this guy is essentially the Stan Lee of Nintendo? A smiling, fun, beloved mascot for the entire company, but actually an idea-stealing prick in private?

If your worldview can't possibly support that people are people and have shades of gray like everyone else, and instead everyone must be either a saint or a prick, then sure, feel free to pick any; you won't be any more right or wrong with either.

To clarify, I'm not saying everyone is the same shade of gray, which is a different fallacy entirely; based on the information at hand, I'm willing to posit that Miyamoto is probably a lighter gray than Stan Lee. But both have contributed an enormous deal to their respective media, and painting either as pure black is doing as much a disservice to history as Stan Lee pretending Jack Kirby didn't exist.

 

[Baleoce]

lmao, okay this was worth it just for the anecdote of DMA being confused for a boyband on their trip to Japan and getting upgraded to 1st class xD

 

[Red Devil]

Miyamoto didn't kill F-Zero. The horrible sales for the games after F-Zero X did.

For all the praise GX gets nowadays, no one bought the damn thing when it came out.

It's the case with several GCN games that have cult following.

Also ignoring that Miyamoto was involved in the creation of those three series on some shape...

 

[nynt9]

Collected a bunch of quotes about what I think sums pretty well what's wrong in the video! Take or leave, your decision

I'm on mobile so I can't do any intensive editing and update the OP with these (especially since when quoting your posts the posts you quoted don't show), but this is great, thanks! Will link your post in the op.

 

[Übersandvich]

What kind of contract could Nintendo have with Argonaut where they could decide not to pay Argonaut and yet still legally use any technology Argonaut developed? I don't doubt the veracity, I just wonder how such a scenario happened in the first place.

 

[Lutherian]

Donkey Kong Country is still a badass game. Actually, all three of them are. Haters gonna hate.

Shout out to my British brethren at Rare. Buy British!

There's no need to hate when the information Larry gave is 100% wrong.

 

[ElFly]

What kind of contract could Nintendo have with Argonaut where they could decide not to pay Argonaut and yet still legally use any technology Argonaut developed? I don't doubt the veracity, I just wonder how such a scenario happened in the first place.

they spell it out themselves. royalties would be paid upon sale of the game

 

[kyser73]

Every good boss I have ever had and met was a hard ass. Younger millennials are too sensitive to understand this.

I'm 43 so far from being a millennial, I've also run a successful media agency with 50+ staff so Hage a fair amount of actual experience managing people & projects, and every hard-ass boss I've worked with or for had high staff turnover, were driven by short term performance rather than long term goals & were almost always universally loathed within their organisations.

You have to be willing to be a hard-ass for sure, especially when it comes to discipline & performance management, but being a hard-ass & riding your staff all the time is bullshit - it shows poor ability to delegate, insecurity & poor hiring selection.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

What kind of contract could Nintendo have with Argonaut where they could decide not to pay Argonaut and yet still legally use any technology Argonaut developed? I don't doubt the veracity, I just wonder how such a scenario happened in the first place.

The FX technology wasn't even fully owned by Argonaut if I recall, instead Nintendo made A/N Software (joint venture company) that divided the FX cartridge technology royalties. The game code was different, and was owned by Nintendo though.

 

[Oddish1]

He killed F-ZERO, ruined Star Fox and Paper Mario and who knows what other great ideas and or projects he has blocked just because he can.

so yeah, I respect him for the good things he has done but I'm not a fan of his.

I think your perspective is skewed if you think Miyamoto goes around blocking projects just because he can. Like, Miyamoto did not kill F-Zero, and Miyamoto is probably the only reason why Star Fox is still around at all.

 

[Koppai]

It's worth noting the Argonaut guy invited Miyamoto to his wedding long after this supposed 'feud' took place, I think it's just case of business being business.

Body Harvest was delayed because it kept failing approval, can't blame Nintendo for not releasing a 6fps game (Waverace PAL version came close mind you).

Back when I was at Rare we would argue with Nintendo over many things, but I can't recall a single time Miyamoto 'sabotaged' any of the projects we had on. Allowing us to work with his IPs was quite the blessing, plus his criticisms were quite helpful at times (if completely insane at others). He wasn't involved at all in most of the titles we produced.

Would still buy him a pint.

You worked with Miyamoto?

 

[Dragonslayer_023]

A lot of this is [citation needed] and seems like speculation. Rare sold themselves to Microsoft because Shiggy pissed them off? Really? That's not how business works.