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Mass Effect: Andromeda's skill/class/levelling system explained (by me)

Maledict

Member
Bethestha RPG's don't have classes, and yet people still think up their stories and specialise in the skills that interest them.

There's just not a big label on the level up screen.

Bethesda games lock you into those skills and stats don't they? That's a big difference. You don't get to change on the fly what abilities you have. My stealthy archer doesn't switch over to a massive two handed and heavy armour between fights because I see a dragon up ahead.

And yes they do have classes. You can make your own, but I'm guessing the majority of people go with besthesda's classes (nightblade, battlemage etc).
 

patapuf

Member
Bethesda games lock you into those skills and stats don't they? That's a big difference. You don't get to change on the fly what abilities you have. My stealthy archer doesn't switch over to a massive two handed and heavy armour between fights because I see a dragon up ahead.

And yes they do have classes. You can make your own, but I'm guessing the majority of people go with besthesda's classes (nightblade, battlemage etc).

Bethestha classes are just cosmetic, they don't mean anything. you can pick battlemage and spec as a thief.

And as far as i understood you can't just switch to whatever you want. You still need to unlock skills. You won't be able to pick the engineer profile without having engineer skills.
If I understood how it works, profiles are stat bonuses for picking a set of skills.
 

Moonlight

Banned
But don't you only become an amazing soldier/biotic/engineer by investing in that class? Aren't you, even with this flexibility, ultimately choosing where to invest your points? It might be that there's no cap on points per character, only on points per class, but I feel like unless you intend on NG+ing or doing absolutely everything, being an amazing everything won't really be a problem anyone has.

Unless I've misunderstood the system?
I understand that you don't need to invest your points into that sort of thing, but like, Ryder still has to have the capacity for all these things to make sense. You picked a class in, say, ME1 and that dictated your character's area of expertise. They could specialize further in that area as they levelled, but they stayed in that space because logically nothing else would make that much sense. And the assumption was that when you were creating an Engineer, it wasn't that your character was biotic and just didn't choose to apply it, they just, weren't biotic. And for a nerd like me, that distinction was important because in the universe, being a biotic is kind of a big deal for how many coincidences have to line up for you to wind up as one.

Ryder has to be. Ryder has to be amazing at everything even if they have to be selectively amazing at some of those things. To put it in simpler terms, it's an aspect to imagining your character's personal story that the nature of the game mechanics take out of your hands.
 

Flipyap

Member
This all sounds terrible to me.
Where's the roleplaying?
In the same place it's been in every other big budget RPG-ish game from the last decade - in the talky bits.
This system will still give you more ways to customize your character than games like The Witcher 3 (which also had a cheap respec potion) and I don't remember seeing many arguments about not calling it an RPG.
 

Lt-47

Member
This all sounds terrible to me.
Where's the roleplaying?

Where ? At the same place as The Witcher 3, Dragon's Dogma, Bravely Default and many other JRPG.
I wasn't too hot on the idea then I remembered that it didn't bother me in those games at all. Beside the system seems to have more than enough depth to justify the small lose of RP.
 

Maledict

Member
I'm fine with the skills changes but bringing back ME1 loot is triggering my ptsd

Same here, I don't understand why anyone would ever want that pointless loot system back. Heck, random loot systems in general seem pointless to me nowadays unless the game is designed around them (Diablo). I'm tired of beating enemies only to get a pile of random crap, or having to craft stuff to get gear that's actually useful.

I think the loot systems from ME2 and me3 were the best. Pointless filling of bars and getting bigger numbers doesn't do it for me.
 

Karu

Member
Same here, I don't understand why anyone would ever want that pointless loot system back. Heck, random loot systems in general seem pointless to me nowadays unless the game is designed around them (Diablo). I'm tired of beating enemies only to get a pile of random crap, or having to craft stuff to get gear that's actually useful.

I think the loot systems from ME2 and me3 were the best. Pointless filling of bars and getting bigger numbers doesn't do it for me.
Absolutely agree. Those people crying for ME1 so called great RPG mechanics are responsible for the return of this Dreck.

Otherwise, awesome write-up, didnt know any of this. Hype a little bit restored. One thing that I still like about Inquisition was its skill system, so BioWare hasnt lost me on that front, yet.

Edit: Ah it all came from the new trailer.
 

Lt-47

Member
I just noticed that some skill now have 2 different mode depending on if you tap or hold the button.

atO1f5c.jpg
 

Coxy100

Banned
Still undecided on this. I prefer being locked into a class I think - I don't like the idea of switching profiles on the fly depending on the enemy I face. I mean isn't that the idea of your squad mates? You choose a varied squad on purpose? (e.g. 1 engineer, 1 soldier
and 1 adept)

Surely this change will negate your squad. Doesn't matter who you bring now because you can change (your profile) on the fly so you don't really have weaknesses now...

I don't want to hit pause and then fanny about choosing a profile.

Having said that - the OP does make it sound better than I first thought.
 
Nice job OP, this is a great outline.

As someone who really struggles with sticking to a specific class in games, this looks amazing. Hopefully skill points aren't hard too hard to come by so we can be really flexible with our different builds.

Also really digging the UI, this game just keeps looking better :D
 

lawtowler

Member
I'll love this game for it's story-telling, characters, worlds, dialogue options etc but I'm not happy about the step away from classic role playing.

I absolutely love taking my time to decide and commit to a playstyle, then having a classic upgrade path to best suit that character. I wish they would have gone more in that direction. There could easily still have been a re-spec option at various places throughout the game
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Still undecided on this. I prefer being locked into a class I think - I don't like the idea of switching profiles on the fly depending on the enemy I face. I mean isn't that the idea of your squad mates? You choose a varied squad on purpose? (e.g. 1 engineer, 1 soldier
and 1 adept)

Surely this change will negate your squad. Doesn't matter who you bring now because you can change (your profile) on the fly so you don't really have weaknesses now...

I don't want to hit pause and then fanny about choosing a profile.

Having said that - the OP does make it sound better than I first thought.

If I spend an overwhelming majority of my skill point on unlocking and upgrading tech skills, and by association have selected and engineer profile that's high level due to the aforementioned skill focus, am I not also going to want a biotic companion to make up for my deficits?

Selecting a vanguard profile may not even be available due to neglecting biotics. And even if it is I might only have a trivial pittance of biotic skills and thus low level vanguard profile compared up my still buffed up engineer.
 
These other games are single player. In a party-based RPG I expect the main character to have a limited range of abilities that other party members will make up for.

Having only three skills available as a "loadout" is more worrying to me.
 
Great work, OT
I just pass the link to this thread to many friends who where asking me the same questions you very well explained.

My two cents about the changes: as someone who loved the ME3 MP, this is pretty neat
 

patapuf

Member
These other games are single player. In a party-based RPG I expect the main character to have a limited range of abilities that other party members will make up for.

Having only three skills available as a "loadout" is more worrying to me.

Yeah, as someone that loved the old KB/M controls i fear that we won't be able to assign 8 skills at the same time anymore.
 

Ivory Samoan

Gold Member
Great thread EC, it's the initial feeling of 'RPG is dead!' that has fueled a lot of hyperbolic response from people, great to see you go into detail on how it will actually work and the more I think about it, it's the best path they could have chosen.
 

Alienfan

Member
Great write up!
It seems even more of an RPG than the first game, It looks kind of clunky using the pause menu to change profile, hopefully there isn't a need to be swapping in and out of them in the midst of combat.
 
Yeah, as someone that loved the old KB/M controls i fear that we won't be able to assign 8 skills at the same time anymore.

Seems like multiplayer is infecting the single player experience once again. Horde mode levels being used in the campaign in ME3, now we get a MP loadout system for the single player.
 

jdstorm

Banned
From my understanding. Mass Effect Andromeda is Xenoblade Chronicles X with a Gears of War inspired combat system and more sexytimes

For everyone who didnt play Xenoblade chronicles X, there were 6 class trees and the player could switch between any they had unlocked.

Mass effect Andromeda will likely work the same way except All Classes will level up at the same time. Another good example would be Destiny with its ability to switch builds . Except every XP point you earn levels up every class, so your Nightstalker Hunter earning XP will level up your Defender Titan simultaneously.

However within each class there will be smaller customization options. Ie how destiny lets you choose between grenades

Edit. What ME:A will likely do is use the players skills to balance your companions.

So you get to play with squadmates that you like and you can adjust your own skills/Job/Loadout to make it any combination of characters work under the Trinity game design rules.
 

Ridygo

Member
I loved mass effect for it's story telling, world and decisions we could make. Combat system is never bothered me anyway.
 

Lt-47

Member
Eeeyup. I better not end up with a mountain of Elkoss Combine garbage to sell so I can buy the best stuff again.

After the amount of shit ME1 got for that I think they'll be extra careful on the amount of loot you receive. That game had such a terrible inventory/loot system that it shouldn't be that hard to do better
 

martino

Member
Being able to learn different skills and use them seems more "role-playing" that being stuck with the same class without any chance on learning anything else because "reasons".

I dunno, OP info sounds good to me. People seems to be panicking because a change has been introduced, without thinking how they will affect them. If done right, it can expand the possibilities of customization far more than stiicking to an old class.

this.
most rpg on paper don't really use class to begin with but a mix of stats , passives ,skills (and all derivative : competences or specific context things like that )
 
I think they should have just dropped the class naming from previous games all together then, it would have led to less confusion.

Then again, this entire marketing campaign has been a fucking mess.
 

Mman235

Member
But why?
A multitude of reasons, most likely. In part accessibility; rigid class locking for 30+ hour experiences is becoming a thing of the past, as more and more RPGs and ARGs offer the ability to respec. The availability of respeccing varies, but it's more or less become the norm.
The other reason is likely due to the type of game Andromeda is. While the trilogy were fairly tightly contained narrative and gameplay arcs, Andromeda is attempting to emphasise more open play space less linear adventuring with a lot of side content and questing that can be done out of sequence. This includes post-game play, open planet zones, etc. Context and style of combat encounters is likely to vary wildly, and the amount of time a player could spend with a single Ryder playthrough will likely eclipse previous games. Thus the encouragement to leave more tools open to play with in one file versus locking skills off.
This decision may also have been influenced by Mass Effect 3's multiplayer, which is cited as a major influence on Andromeda's combat. In ME3's multiplayer half the excitement came from juggling multiple characters with different skills to try new things. Perhaps BioWare are attempting to translate that to single player.

I imagine it's also driven by those metrics that showed the vast majority of ME trilogy players just went with the default Soldier. By opening up class choice they're probably hoping the diversity of player styles will be greater when they're not locked into a certain skillset and can experiment.
 

X-Frame

Member
This sounds like a great new system to me. I can "role-play" as a specific class if I want or I can swap around, but I appreciate the freedom.

I assume that those that buy too many skills from different classes will end up more of a jack of all trades whereas someone who for example wants to spend as much of their skill points into an Adept will have one strong Adept with little to no alternate class skills.

Thanks EC for the analysis!
 

Coxy100

Banned
If I spend an overwhelming majority of my skill point on unlocking and upgrading tech skills, and by association have selected and engineer profile that's high level due to the aforementioned skill focus, am I not also going to want a biotic companion to make up for my deficits?

Selecting a vanguard profile may not even be available due to neglecting biotics. And even if it is I might only have a trivial pittance of biotic skills and thus low level vanguard profile compared up my still buffed up engineer.

I take your point - and you're probably right...but you could answer with my original point: Why bother taking biotic companion to make up for your deficits - if you can just switch to biotics mid fly. Looking at those screenshots rank 1 grants you 10% damage bonus etc.

Yes of course a squad mate with high biotics makes up for it I know - I'm just whining because I think I prefer the old system :)
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Great write up and summary. This is exactly what I surmised from the latest trailer.

I think the be system sounds great. It allows freedom to the player and the ability for experimentation but not without its checks and balances.

The effectiveness of all this will depend on how easily we level up and acquire skill points, how many skill points it takes to upgrade skills and how large a leap profile bonuses ate upon rank up.

It could make for some really great hybrid classes and traditional ME style classes, but if skill points are to abundant compared to upgrade requirements or if profile bonuses are not that important it could result in everyone just becoming a Jack of all trades and master of all of them.
 

Sizzel

Member
Thanks OP. I keep forgetting this game is supposed to release soon - with the amount of info out there it feels like Q4 2017 q1 2018. Way more interested in the characters, story, and universe...not in it for builds and combat personally.
 

martino

Member
I take your point - and you're probably right...but you could answer with my original point: Why bother taking biotic companion to make up for your deficits - if you can just switch to biotics mid fly. Looking at those screenshots rank 1 grants you 10% damage bonus etc.

Yes of course a squad mate with high biotics makes up for it I know - I'm just whining because I think I prefer the old system :)

the magic of the news system is can choose to make it like the old one focusing on one path and one or two category of skills depending on it.
 

Papilloma

Member
Great OP. Personally I don't like the change - for me it's dumbing down. I like choosing a class and sticking with it for the duration of the game - role playing.

I will miss the old mass effect system - but as long as I can use my old Adept powers I will still enjoy it :)

But you can still do this if you want to? I don't think you will be FORCED to respec if that's important to how you roleplay?

EDIT: Sorry, hadn't seen that someone had made a similar point. From my perspective I like the change. In the older games it meant I didn't always choose the characters that I really liked to come with me on missions, as they were too similar to my class. Here I can take the people along that I fancy, and respec myself to make sure I don't have a crippled party.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Dont like it, the same way I didnt like Skyrim's removal of classes and its "openness". It feels directionless rather than truely open, making the role playing element suffer, and thus the immersion factor (the whole reason I play games). I'm still going to play it, but its very sad to me that a game that should be at the top of my hype list is basically a *shrug, ill play it* title now. Just horrible marketing all around.
 
Thanks for the info write up. Not a fan of the one man army approach in a game with squad members. Makes me feel like they will become an after thought like the companions in skyrim. We will see when the game comes out though.
 
I love class based systems, though i like job systems better and this seems like a reverse job system which is pretty interesting(the 3 skill limit however is a huge disappointment, I hope that can be increased later on). But the people saying not having classes removes role playing are confusing me. That's like saying something like fallout has less role playing because you have entirely custom skills and feats. And some people still seem to fail to understand how the system works despite the OP having an excellent explanation(even better then the original one from the interview, which I found perfectly understandable in the first place).
 

patapuf

Member
I love class based systems, though i like job systems better and this seems like a reverse job system which is pretty interesting(the 3 skill limit however is a huge disappointment, I hope that can be increased later on). But the people saying not having classes removes role playing are confusing me. That's like saying something like fallout has less role playing because you have entirely custom skills and feats. And some people still seem to fail to understand how the system works despite the OP having an excellent explanation(even better then the original one from the interview, which I found perfectly understandable in the first place).

Hardcore RPG's like Divinity: Original Sin have no class restrictions either.

It'll utlimately depend how it's implemented in detail. The concept itself doesn't prevent roleplaying at all.
 

Lt-47

Member
I think they should have just dropped the class naming from previous games all together then, it would have led to less confusion.

How would naming the gun+biotics profile anything other than vanguard make things less confusing ? They may work differently but the idea behind them is still the same
 
Hardcore RPG's like Divinity: Original Sin have no class restrictions either.

It'll utlimately depend how it's implemented in detail. The concept itself doesn't prevent roleplaying at all.

Yeah, I could list a crap ton of role playing games, including pen and paper ones with class less systems. Hell, normally people complain the class system games are the ones that limited role playing.

I suppose it is possible for them to fuck it up somehow. As a guy who liked ME1 the most, I expect this, but most of what I've heard so far has been good imo. That 3 abilities thing though... I don't even mind limited skill sets like this, but 3 is just so small. That will make spreading out your skills even more of a bad idea then the profile system does already.
 
Good post OP. Thanks.

I like not being restricted to a single class. I'm probably going to pick the three coolest skills.
 
Bethesda games lock you into those skills and stats don't they? That's a big difference. You don't get to change on the fly what abilities you have. My stealthy archer doesn't switch over to a massive two handed and heavy armour between fights because I see a dragon up ahead.

And yes they do have classes. You can make your own, but I'm guessing the majority of people go with besthesda's classes (nightblade, battlemage etc).

I don't see what's the problem with what you say. you still have to spend skill point to upgrade your characters. at some point you'll have to choose whether you want to spent all those point to maximize your stealthy archer. or spit your skill point between your stealthy archer and your heavy armored build.

that's the RPG part over there.

unless the game give you way too many skill point that you can max all your skill in a normal playthrough. this shouldn't be a problem.

edit: also, preparing your character before a tough boss fight has been a staple of every rpg ever. I'm going to fight this fire dragon, I better prepare to equip a fire resistant equipment. so what's wrong to switch profile that give more defense buff if you know ahead of time you'll be facing powerful monster ahead.
 

BeauRoger

Unconfirmed Member
Hmm, i wonder if you can redistribute ability points on the fly as well, or if its restricted to profile changes only. I really hope its the latter.
 
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